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The Meaning of Christmas (w/ Rev. Munther Isaac) | The Chris Hedges Report
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- [00:10]
Chris Hedges
In the early 1980s, I was in a refugee camp for Guatemalans who had fled the war into Honduras. It was a cold, dreary winter afternoon. The peasant farmers and their families, living in filth and mud, were decorating their tents with strips of colored paper. That night, they said, they would celebrate the flight of Mary, Joseph and the infant Jesus to Egypt to escape the slaughter of the children of Bethlehem ordered by Herod. The celebration is known as the Day of the Holy Innocents. Why is this such an important day? I asked. It was on this day that Christ became a refugee, a farmer answered. I knew the passage from Matthew about the flight to Egypt by heart. I had heard my father, a Presbyterian minister, read it in services every Christmas in the farm town in upstate New York where I grew up. But it took an illiterate farmer who had fled in fear with his wife and children from the murderous rampages of the Guatemalan army and the death squads, who no doubt counted friends, even relatives among the dead, a man who had lost everything he owned, to explain it to me. The story of Christmas, like the story of the crucifixion, in which Jesus is abandoned by his disciples, attacked by the mob, condemned to death by the state, placed on death row and executed, is not written for the oppressors. It is written for the oppressed. And what is quaint and picturesque to those who live in privilege is visceral and empowering to those the world condemns. Jesus was not a Roman citizen. He lived under Roman occupation. The Romans were white. Jesus was a person of color. And the Romans, who peddle their own version of white supremacy, nailed people of color to crosses. The Romans killed Jesus as an insurrectionist, a revolutionary. They feared the radicalism of the Christian gospel, and they were right to fear it. The Roman state saw Jesus the way the American state saw Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. Then, like now, prophets were killed. Christmas is not about the virgin birth. It is not about angels. It is not even about a historical Jesus. To debate these topics is to engage in a theological trivial pursuit. The Christmas story is about learning how to be human, about kneeling before a newborn infant who is helpless, vulnerable, despised and poor. It is about inverting the world's values. It is about understanding that the religious life and this life can be lived with or without. A religious creed calls on us to protect and nurture the least among us, those demonized and rejected. The Reverend Munther Isaac, the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahur, displays at his church The Nativity seen with the figure of the infant Jesus wrapped in a checkered black and white keffiyeh, lying in a pile of rubble. Joining me to discuss the meaning of Christmas is Reverend Isaac. So let's begin, Munther, with the Christmas story. Last Christmas, this Christmas, of course, you have created this creche. What is it that you were trying to say through that symbolism?
- [03:33]
Reverend Munther Isaac
Yeah, actually, when we made it at the church, some even in our church, were a bit surprised and shocked because we're accustomed to think of Christmas as a joyful occasion. But the Sunday we presented this Krish, I actually preached and said, this is actually the meaning of Christmas. This represents Christmas more than any other thing. Maybe the idea of Jesus identifying with an occupied community, a community that is oppressed in its pain and suffering. I think many times we forget the actual circumstances in which Jesus was born. We make it a romantic story, forgetting that, in essence, the vocabulary of that story is a refugee family, a tyrant, a massacre, taxation. These are all terminologies that we don't usually associate with the Christmas story. But to us here in Palestine, they actually make the story as we read it in the Gospel, very much a Palestinian story, because we can identify with the characters. And so the message to me was clear. If Jesus was born today in our world, he would be born in Gaza under the rubble as a sign of solidarity with the oppressed, just as Jesus was born 2000 years ago among an occupied community, a community that is under the yoke of a ruthless empire in circumstances in which children were massacred. And interestingly, sadly, out of all places, they escaped to Egypt. In the very same way today, people from Palestine, from Gaza, escape into Egypt. So we see it's the same story. That's what I try to emphasize. And in that, we find comfort as Palestinians because we can look at Jesus not just as one of us, but as someone who is in solidarity with us, identifies with our pain and struggle, and is in solidarity with us.
- [05:38]
Chris Hedges
Let's talk about that call. In the Christian Gospel, we are enjoined to love our neighbor, not our tribe. This is perhaps most evident in the story of the Good Samaritan. Oftentimes, religious systems become tribal. We take care of our own and we ignore everyone else. That's certainly the ethos of Zionism, but that's not the message in the Christian Gospel. Perhaps you can address that.
- [06:07]
Reverend Munther Isaac
Yeah, and I'm grateful you mentioned the story, the parable of the Good Samaritan, because actually, this is one of my favorite stories. And in that story, actually, the people who fail to show mercy and compassion. The people who fail to see the Samaritan as a neighbor are religious. They represent the religious institution. In our religiosity, we become tribal. In our religiosity, we focus more on what to do and not to do and forget the essence of our faith, which is love God and love neighbor. So I think in that story, in its essence, Jesus is lamenting the fact that religious leaders failed to show compassion to that wounded person. And then it was a Samaritan, someone who was despised. You know, the Samaritans were a despised community, A community that at the time were considered even demon possessed. You know, when the disciples of Jesus were with him and the Samaritans wouldn't allow Jesus to pass by through their city, the disciples suggested, why don't you call for fire to come and consume the Samaritans in the same way? You know, we hear today in American politics and Israeli politics suggestions to nuke, get rid of it completely or get it over with quickly. So then Jesus makes those people that were despised the center of the story, actually the example to follow, challenging our prejudice. But in that story, there is a really important element that I think captures the essence of what Jesus was trying to say. Because the person who was wounded in need of help, Jesus says, was left naked and unconscious. He couldn't speak. So you can detect from his accent, is he a Jew? Is he a Roman? Is he a Samaritan? He had no clothes. His clothes would not reveal his identity. And I think that's the point of the story. He was a human being. And as such, that story begins with the question, who is my neighbor? A question which the Teacher of the law asked Jesus. And behind it is the assumption, you know, who's my neighbor that I should love and who's not my neighbor? And I'm obligated of, you know, I'm not obliged to love. You know, that's the question, who is my neighbor? Some people. It assumes that there are some people we must love and others we don't have to love. And the conclusion of the story is that, you know, there is no us and them there is no everybody is a neighbor. You don't draw a circle and determine who's in and who's out in that manner, in that question, who is my neighbor? And that's the point of the story. When someone is in need, everyone is a neighbor. And we can't choose as if we only help those who are like us. Actually, Jesus said, you know, what good are you if you only love those who look like you or who are like you. So it's an important concept because we are used to, and we're good at, loving those who look like us, who think like us. And we are actually masters of drawing these lines, these circles in which we decide who's in and who's out. And in that process, we are willing to even go the distance of dehumanizing and demonizing others. And so clearly today, the Palestinians are outside of the circle. Been saying it. You know, human rights don't apply on us, not even compassion. People been watching a genocide life and not doing anything. To me, we need to go back to the essence of the teachings of Jesus. It's not just about loving God. But you can't claim to love God if you don't love your neighbor. And then you don't choose who your neighbor is. And this is what we as people of faith, and in particular, if we follow Jesus, this is precisely our calling. It's a beautiful story, the story of the good A Samaritan, for all of these elements involved in it.
- [10:24]
Chris Hedges
I want to talk about religious institutions, as you may have encountered. I certainly have encountered the last acceptable prejudice of the left is against those of us who come out of a religious tradition, no matter what that is. Paul Tillich, the theologian, writes that all institutions, including the church, are inherently demonic. And you can read Moral man and Immoral Society by the theologian Reinhold Niebuhr. It was a very important book for me where he talked about institutions, including the church, as essentially dedicated to their own perpetuation and survival, often at the expense of the moral life. And Niebuhr argues, and this is of course, Tillich's point, that in order to obtain the moral life or live the moral life, one often has to defy the institution, including the religious institution, in which they find themselves. And you brought this up, that the religious and the story of the Good Samaritans. And this is of course, echoed in Jesus going into the temple with the money changers and other stories in the Bible. There was a conflict between the institutional hierarchy of the religion at the time, which of course was in Jerusalem, was he was going after the money changers in the Jewish temple. But that is hardly limited to Judaism or any other religion. Let's talk about that struggle to live the moral life to stand with those James cone called the Crucified of the Earth, and how that often puts us in conflict with the very religious institutions we may belong to.
- [12:14]
Reverend Munther Isaac
Yeah, well, first, I mean, we need to acknowledge that there is a lot of good that comes from all religions, religious institutions, a lot of actual good that has happened over the years and is certainly true today. And so I would not characterize them as in the language that was quoted. However, I like the classification of the Cairo South Africa document, a document from 1986 which spoke of three different theologies. And I think it captures the essence of what you are trying to say and it shaped a lot of my ministry as well. The Kairos South Africa document talked about state theology, the theology that serves the empire, the theology that serves those in power, enables them to dominate, gives them the language for superiority. And in the South African case it's apartheid. In our case it's Zionism and Christian Zionism. It's those who feel entitled, chosen, superior, and they function on a different sphere of reality because God supports them or God has empowered them. So there is certainly that state theology, as Kairos South Africa document calls it. But I think what you're alluding to is what the Cairo South Africa document calls church theology. By that they mean the theology that oftentimes prioritizes peace and reconciliation at the expense of justice. And so the response to a crisis like what's happening today in Gaza, a genocide, is a prayer for peace. And in some cases they go beyond that into acts of charity, yet fail to call out those who are committing a genocide. And I think we need to call out that line of thinking despite the elements of good that exist in it. But if we fail to call out things by name and speak truth to power, we only empower the oppressors. And I think that church theology, as the Cairo South Africa called it, was very evident even today as I look at again, a genocide taking place in front of all the world to see. And at best all we get is statements from church praying for peace, calling for a ceasefire, yet failing to call a genocide or genocide. The same way they fail to call the system we have in Palestine as apartheid, insisting that there is only a conflict. I think behind that is this spirituality of neutrality, and that neutrality only enables the oppressors. And I certainly believe that it's our calling to go with what the Cairos South Africa document calls the prophetic tradition, speaking truth to power and then also taking sides. And I think many times in Christian theology we fail to capture this important idea of the fact that peacemaking means you take sides. I surprise people sometimes and they, you know, I say God takes sides and it's like, no, God is with everyone. I say, yes, God loves everyone. And so on. But when there is an oppression, God takes the sides of the oppressed. When there is injustice, God takes the sides of those who suffer injustice. When there is marginalization and supremacy, God takes the sides of the marginalized. God takes the sides of the poor. It's explicit in Scripture. You don't have to imply it from here or there. It's direct in Scripture. And so when I said Christ is under the rubble and this is a sign of God's solidarity with the oppressed, my message was that, that God's solidarity must become, in turn, our solidarity. We need to side with the oppressed. We need to speak on their behalf, empower their stories, defend their rights, advocate on their behalf, protect and do everything we have in our means, in the ethics of Jesus to show that God is inside of the oppressed and that it becomes in turn our obligation as Christians to side with the oppressed. And this is different than we pray for peace and we are neutral and this is more risky. And let's remember that solidarity by definition, is costly. And I think this is what many times church leaders try to avoid controversy, costly solidarity, and only prefer to stop by the idea we pray for peace and we hope both sides reconcile.
- [17:11]
Chris Hedges
Yes, it's a kind of studied, quote, unquote objectivity that commits them to nothing. Would you say that this characterizes the response to the genocide by most Christian and religious institutions?
- [17:27]
Reverend Munther Isaac
Unfortunately, yes. It's changing, but especially in the beginning. And that's why I have been calling out church leaders. And let's remember that there are some Christian traditions who still support and call for this genocide to continue, justify it, you know, try to explain it sometimes, give it even theological terms, whether it's the fundamentalist who, you know, it's Christian Zionism we see today, the new Ambassador Pompeo. There is no occupation. It's all Judea and Samaria. So they have their own sphere of reality, the biblical one they function with. Or it's even some progressive theologians who said it's the just war theory. You know, Israel has the right to defend itself. They are the ruler executing the justice that should happen. And as such, they. They call, you know, they use the just war theory. A Palestinian Christian friend of mine, a theologian whose name is Tony Dyck, said, you know, they make the killing of 17,000 children the justice of God. I mean, this is unthinkable to us. So sadly, you know, it went from endorsing, supporting, justifying, and then many, especially in the mainline tradition, just made statements. And sometimes these statements repeated the Zionist phrases You know, Israel has the right to defend itself. We call for Israel for restraint, not to kill innocent civilians. We are concerned that Palestinians are killed and so on. Nothing about genocide, nothing about accountability, nothing about the rule of law. Interestingly, when it comes to Israel committing war crimes that everyone now is seeing and it's proven. And so again, this has been part of the system that enabled Israel to occupy and colonize Palestine for years and now to commit obvious war crimes.
- [19:36]
Chris Hedges
Well, shouldn't these Christian institutions be calling for a cessation of all weapons to Israel?
- [19:42]
Reverend Munther Isaac
I believe so, and I've said it. And I've called for churches to church leaders for weapon embargo. Listen, at the end of the day, it's about, do we believe as Christians in the rule of law? Do we believe that those who commit war crimes should be held accountable? And in particular, when it comes to the United States, Christian leaders cannot just say, well, it's our government. Well, you voted for this government regardless of where you voted, by the way, because it's across. You know, it's a cross political divide. Both Republicans and Democrats support Israel. So it's your politicians who give the green light and the political cover for this war. And it's tax money, you know, that's funding this war. So as a faith leader, if you're silent, then that means you approve with how your elected representatives are voting, and that means that you approve with how your money is spent. There's no other interpretation of it. And so we need to call for accountability. And I think for now, obviously, I would support weapon embargo on Israel.
- [21:01]
Chris Hedges
Munther, are there any institutional structures within the Christian religion that have embraced that position and calling for a halt to weapons to Israel?
- [21:16]
Reverend Munther Isaac
We're beginning to see some voices rise. Today. There is a campaign in the United Kingdom, Advent, not weapons, something like that. I can share with you the exact title of it. There are certainly some pastors who are aligned with this vision. I am involved in a group called Kairos Palestine. And we have global Kairos for Justice groups all over the world who have called to relate to Israel as an apartheid and as such apply sanctions. And today we are calling for weapons embargo. So we're beginning to see some groups, some grassroots groups, not yet on the institutional level. On the institutional level, some have called Israel an apartheid state. Some have called for boycotting settlement goods. The pcusa, United Church of Christ and other Protestant mainline denominations. But I think this needs coordinated efforts. This needs serious engagement. And, you know, it also means going against the norms of Your society. And I think many, many people find this challenging to do.
- [22:42]
Chris Hedges
Every war I covered, starting in Latin America, I was in El Salvador during the war. Of course, Archbishop Oscar Romero, when he called on Salvadoran soldiers not to fire on their own compatriots, was assassinated. But every war that I've covered, the Institute covered the war in the former Yugoslavia. And then I was in the Middle east dealing with the Christian Zionists, especially in a wartime environment. We saw it in nine, 11 in the United States. The institutional churches have almost immediately sacralized the conflict, and we see this replicated in Israel. And those religious leaders who dare to speak out against the war, or in this case, the genocide, are often persecuted by their own institutions. And I wondered if you could talk about that in particular. Any Jewish or rabbi, any Jewish religious leader or rabbi who has denounced the genocide. What has the institution, the religious institution done to them?
- [24:02]
Reverend Munther Isaac
They are literally persecuted. Especially, you know, right now, after October 7th, it's hard to openly criticize the actions of the government of Israel. But they are speaking out and they are now fighting even some legal consequences. Groups like B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization.
- [24:28]
Chris Hedges
B'Tselem is secular, though. B'Tselem is a human rights organization, not a religious.
- [24:33]
Reverend Munther Isaac
Yes, but at least, you know, it shows that some Jews with conscience are speaking Rabbis for Human Rights. And certainly in the United States, Jewish Voice for Peace is doing an incredible job. And others. It's not just a Jewish Voice for Peace. I think it's becoming the more prominent. It shows that there are those within the Jewish community who are insisting, not in our name, it's wrong, it must stop. And I think the major shift right now, Chris, is that those within Judaism who are speaking out are finally seeing that Zionism is a problem and are finally beginning to realize what we've been saying from the beginning, that, you know, question is Zionism redeemable? And I hope this conversation takes place on a more serious level within the Jewish community in Israel and in the Diaspora. The idea that Zionism is a settler, colonial entity and it's deemed to collapse, you cannot continue to unless you plan to completely eliminate all Palestinians. And this is what scares me. So going back to your question, there are some voices in the land, Jewish voices, that are beginning to speak. They have always been there. But I think in the beginning of the war, they were hesitant, given the severity of what happened on October 7 and the level of how many people were killed and how they were killed. But now they're beginning to realize that we can't be silent when there is a genocide happening by our state.
- [26:26]
Chris Hedges
Well, but very few of these figures are leaders within these religious institutions, is that correct?
- [26:32]
Reverend Munther Isaac
Yes, and not just within the religious institution. Even those in the secular domain are still a minority. The political discussion in Israel is how far do you go? It's not whether there is a middle or the left. The middle and the left pretty much no longer exist. And so it's, you know, in a freaky way, you know, Netanyahu is now considered in the middle. And then those Benqvir and Smutrich and others are the ones who are leading Israel into a more right wing direction. The scary thing also is that more than ever since the inception of Israel, the religious language is so strong in the political discourse. Look at the nation state law, but also the agreement of the current.
- [27:26]
Chris Hedges
You should explain what the. Explain what the nation state law law is for people who don't know.
- [27:31]
Reverend Munther Isaac
The nation state law is the basic law that was passed by the Israeli Knesset despite strong objection from many on the secular side and of course the Arab parties. It's one of two pages, I think, document. But in its essence it emphasizes the whole land is Jewish and that only Jews have the right for self determination in the land of Israel. So they say actually explicitly, the right for self determination is explicit, exclusive to the Jewish people only in the land of Israel. And then goes on to explain that building Jewish settlements in the west bank, they call it Judea and Samaria, is a national duty and right. So this is discrimination by law. I mean, if this is not apartheid, what is? You know, when you say only one people have the right for self determination over against even the indigenous citizens of Israel, who are the Arabs, the Palestinians who have been there long before Israel was established as a State in 1948. And then since the nation state law it kept going more and more to the right. To the extent that when this current Israeli government was formed In January of 2023, they stated explicitly in their agreement, this is their agenda, this is their, you know, declared intentions, that the land belongs exclusively, they call it the land of Israel, belongs exclusively to the Jewish people. And I think we need to stop for a moment and try to imagine the response if the Palestinian National Council or the Palestinian Liberation Organization said such a statement. The land of Palestine belongs exclusively to the Arab Palestinians or to Muslims. I mean, imagine the uproar. Imagine what we would be called, what Palestinians would be called. But somehow the Israelis say it. They are welcomed as heroes in the Congress. They are exercising apartheid not just in practice, but in their laws. And they are still considered the only democracy in the Middle east, you know, on the right of freedom and human rights and so on. And the Palestinians are the problem.
- [29:46]
Chris Hedges
I want to talk about religious Zionism. When I lived in Jerusalem, the liberal Zionists, and I don't want to pretend that they weren't just as vicious towards the Palestinians. In fact, if you take 1948 and 1967, when you had the largest ethnic cleansing, 750,048, about 350,000 Palestinians driven from their homes, that was under liberal Zionism. So I. But. But it was different. I mean, they didn't like the religious Zionists. When I was there, they outlawed the KAK Party led by Rabbi Meir Kahane. That's changed. I think Ben GVIR recently visited Kahane's grave. These are the heirs to Kahane, and they speak. Even Netanyahu. They speak or they use biblical passages to justify the genocide so that now this assault against the Palestinians, this attempt at erasure, is given a religious veneer. Can you talk about that change?
- [30:52]
Reverend Munther Isaac
Yes. And again, it's important what you said. It's not as if liberal Zionism was friendly and then this, because oftentimes some get the impression that it's only when Zionism became religious that we have a problem. But certainly now this is dangerous because when you bring the religious dimension to it, first you make it a religious conflict. And again, this is scary. You know, it's scary because when you make it a religious conflict, you know, you by definition become on the right side simply for representing your religion and your God, because we assume your religion is the right one and your God is the right one, and everyone else is false gods, idols, and so on. So it becomes your mandate. And that's dangerous. When you have a mandate from God to implement the will of God by force, you will do anything because you have God on your side. And again, not only are you now righteous, but then by implication, those on the other side are, as Netanyahu said, the Amalekites. You know, it's okay to completely erase them. It's okay to completely kill them. And so there is no telling where this will lead us. And I find it again, shocking that the very same people in the west who condemn and vilify Muslims, when they do this, they are okay with Israel doing it. Actually, you have those on the Christian right who support it. So we need to continue to emphasize that what we have in Palestine is not a religious conflict. And we need to continue to emphasize the danger of bringing this language of divine entitlement into such discussions. Because, you know, to put it very, very simply, if my side of the argument, if I have an argument with you, Chris, my God told me so, then how can we continue the conversation? You know, because any position you take makes it a position against God, so it becomes impossible to talk. And if we don't yield to a set of laws that we all agree on, which is in this case, the international law, it might not be perfect, but it's something we all agree on at this stage, then if everyone brings their own set of reality, understanding of reality based on their religion and their interpretation of their scriptures and religious entitlement, then there's no telling where this will lead us. It's chaos, it's violence, it's madness, and it's frightening. Honestly, where this will lead us, it's.
- [33:49]
Chris Hedges
Also the externalization of evil. So, you know, in my tradition, and I believe yours, the greatest battle is actually a passage in the Quran where the Prophet talks about the struggle. The greatest jihad is the struggle within us, the struggle to make sure that the evil within us doesn't actualize itself. And the great writers of the Holocaust, Primo Levi and others, write the same thing. But when you externalize evil, then evil is embodied in the other. Who. When you. In this fantasy, when you eradicate them. You see the way the Israelis talk about the Palestinians in Gaza as essentially either being witting or unwitting agents of Hamas. But when evil is embodied externally in the other, then you defeat evil by. By erasing. Killing the other.
- [34:46]
Reverend Munther Isaac
Yes. And then the killing of the other becomes actually a righteous act, an act that is defended as justice, as I said, the justice of God. When you use, for example, the just war theory or, you know, you're doing, you know, humanity, even a surface look at how Palestinians were described in the beginning of the war and throughout, you know, animals, the Amalekites, and even beyond that. I think it takes a lot of years and systematic dehumanization of the Palestinians to reach the level where we are right now. I am shocked, and I say this honestly, I am shocked when Christian leaders defend the killings in Gaza by yielding to the, you know, by just repeating the claim Hamas is using Palestinians as human shields. And, you know, I don't want to get into whether this is right or wrong, regardless of. It's been widely disputed. But the whole idea that even if true, that to you, it's okay to kill 100 Palestinians to get to one. Hamas militants is shocking to me. And it makes me think, how much dehumanization of Palestinians did it take? And even demonization of Palestinians did it take for you as a Christian ministry to reach this level where it's okay for you to say just kill 100 of them to get rid of one or two Hamas militants? It shocks me because it proves what we've been saying. They don't look at us as human beings. They don't look at us as equals. And this doesn't happen day or night. And I refer here to what another Palestinian theologian, Yusuf Khoury, said. He's from Gaza. And, you know, we Palestinians continue to emphasize this war did not start on October 7th. But to him, the genocide itself began not in 1948. The genocide began with talking about Palestine as a land without people, because that's when we were erased. That's when they looked at the land and they didn't see people. They knew the land had people, but they're not people of equal worth. They can be removed. They can be erased. They can be displaced. They can, you know, we can make them give half of their land to the new incoming Jewish settlers and so on. And so once you look at and look at a whole group of people as inferior, and then you use a system, tragically, of theology to justify that by making some people superior and entitled or by, you know, demonizing the religion of others, as we see often the case when it comes to the Middle east and Islam. The result is what we see right now in Gaza. This didn't happen day and night. You don't wake up and decide it's okay to kill, you know, Palestinians on this scale. It took years of dehumanization and demonization of Palestinians to the extent that when the war on Gaza happened in 2023, the world was ready to accept this tragic fate for the Palestinians.
- [38:17]
Chris Hedges
I want to talk the Amalekites. That's a term that Netanyahu now throws around regularly. But talk about that biblical story because it's quite chilling, as I remember, you can correct me, it's been a while since I was in divinity school. It's not just the slaughter of the men, women and children, but even the animals. It's the complete destruction. But talk about that story because it's become a refrain used by Israeli leaders and by the idf, by soldiers to justify the genocide, erase their memory, even.
- [38:54]
Reverend Munther Isaac
You know, erase anything that. So the Amalekites were a group of people in the ancient times that had a problem with the Israelites. And the decree from God was to destroy them to kill them all. So that phrase become synonymous to enemies of God, enemies of the people of God. So if you are enemies of the people of God, you are enemies of God. And there is this justification of, as you said, killing everybody, erasing their memory. It all stems from this logic of reading a biblical story and drawing a straight line to the Israel of today, reading a straight story again from those who dwelt the land back then, and when the Israelites came, they fought with them with the current indigenous Palestinians of the land, and determining all over again that God is on our side, we are the chosen ones, God gave us the land. And as such. And again, the whole concept of, for example, the Israeli UN Ambassador carrying the Bible in the UN is chilling. You know, it should. You know, it gives this assumption again that God is on our side, we are entitled. And the fact, as I said, that the world was ready to accept the characterization of Palestinians and the people of Gaza as the Amalekites, which means accepting their total erasure, killing, destruction, even remove their memory, is shameful, is chilling. And you know, sadly, years from now, it will be studied as a case point how not to use scripture. But when it was done, not many people speak to challenge that language. And by the way, it's not just Netanyahu. You know, in my book I mentioned the many evangelical pastors who use the very same language. So let's be clear, it's not just as if the Israeli politicians, many, many, many pastors and theologians use the same language.
- [41:08]
Chris Hedges
I want to ask about Christian Zionism, but I'm reminded of a quote by the theologian H. Richard Niebuhr who said, religion is a good thing for good people and a bad thing for bad people. And this is kind of the perfect example. Let's talk about Judea and Samaria. That is a term that is now used by regularly by the Israeli government. It's a biblical term to describe the west bank or. What are they doing?
- [41:31]
Reverend Munther Isaac
What they're doing is eliminating thousands of years of history, of culture, of civilizations. What they're doing is imposing one phase of history, okay? And I'm not going to even go into the archaeological arguments of how accurate, how historical these biblical stories are. I'm just going to assume it's true, you know, so what they're doing is imposing one reading over every other reading, making it superior to any other reading, and in the process eliminating thousands of years of history and cultures and civilizations. What they're doing also is justifying settler colonialism, making it acceptable today, because let's be honest. You know, what is it that what right did. Or even today, let's not talk about 1948, a Jewish person living in Brooklyn, and we have many of them today, settlers in the West Bank. By what right does he come and claim possession of a house and live in the west bank and have more rights than a Palestinian? He needs something to prove that he's entitled to this. And so this is where the Bible comes to aid. So what they're doing is finding the language that makes settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, which is what happened when Israel was created, making it Jews returning to their homes. And if you think with me for a moment of that simple statement, Jews return to their home. Chris, you grew up in a church and I'm sure you know, you've heard this. It's very common in church circles, you know, not just among evangelical Christian Zionists. It's very common everywhere. And so you see what happened here. You know, settlers came to Palestine, created a mass refugee crisis, expelled people from their homes, destroyed their villages, their memories, started a state under the ruins of their towns and villages, yet somehow called it, we are returning to our home. Why? Because the Bible says so. And this has become the normal reading. It's not disputed. And interestingly, when I say Israel is a settler colonial entity, some people dispute that. What they're doing is making it acceptable. That. And this is what shocks us. You deny a Palestinian from Gaza the right to return to their towns and villages from 1948, yet somehow you celebrate the fact that a Jewish person, as I said, from Brooklyn, who comes and settles in the west bank on a land confiscated by Palestinians from Palestinians, I mean, you make that a return to their home. This is what they're doing. And the world buys it. The Christian world, by and large, bought it, celebrated it. And of course, we can't undermine the effects of the guilt of the horrors of the Holocaust. But nevertheless, you see, what happened here is that settler colonialism became. We returned to our homeland. And I think there's one more thing that happens here when you call it Judea and Samaria, you completely not neutralize the international law. You completely neutralize the human rights of Palestinians for self determination. So when someone like Rampeo said, there is, it's Judea and Samaria, he then said, there is no occupation. So he imposed a different sphere of reality. And when I heard this, my first reaction was, you know, so who's that pointing a gun at me? Every day I go to drive my kids to school. Am I delusional that there is an Israeli soldier. You say there is no occupation. Am I delusional that there's literally a military checkpoint outside of our town? Or he is living in this delusional, created, imagined sphere of reality from the Bible and he is reading everything through that lens. And let's be clear, it's not like he's using the Bible to put on ethical, moral lenses, to read a conflict with and try to be fair and call for righteousness and peacemaking. No, that's irrelevant. The teachings of Jesus become completely irrelevant. What matters is this way of risk reading Scripture in which they offset nations from thousands of years ago into today. And it's exciting to them, especially when some of them link it to the second coming of Christ. All of this happens when you call it Judea and Samaria and eliminate completely the Palestinian narrative or the Palestinian existence. We exist on this land.
- [47:00]
Chris Hedges
Well, we don't. Do we really even know where Judea and Samaria was? I mean, those are very imprecise archaeological terms, I believe certainly does not correspond probably to the borders of the West Bank. I want to talk a little bit about Christian Zionism. Christian Zionism, it didn't call itself Christian Zionism, but it actually predates, certainly began at the end of the 19th century. It was all sorts of figures. And just by the way, in terms of the settler colonial project that Israel carried out against the Palestinians and attempting to use the Bible to justify it, that's exactly what the Puritans did in New England when they carried out the genocide against indigenous communities in the Americas. They went to the Bible and branded them as satanic and talked about building the city on the hill. So it was again, it was the appropriation of the Bible to carry out genocide in the United States. What became the United States, very similar process that we're seeing in Israel. But let's talk about Christian Zionism because with the falling away of support for the Zionist state by younger Jews, the government has catered more and more to these Christian Zionists, Hagi and others. You come out of the evangelical tradition. I do not. So you probably are more in touch with it. I wrote a book about the American or the Christian right called American Fascists. The Christian Right in the War in America. I believe that they are heretics who. I don't think Jesus came to make us rich or I don't think Jesus blessed the white race above other races or these people were very involved in sacralizing the war, in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with the demonization of Muslims. So I'm very fierce in terms of these people. But let's get your take on Christian Zionists because they've become cheerleaders for the genocide for the most part, unfortunately.
- [49:12]
Reverend Munther Isaac
And in their lust for power, they see Israel as a natural ally. And let's remember that the influence of evangelicals on events here on the ground is old. It's from the 80s at least, when, during the Reagan era and the rise of the religious right and you know, the history. And then we saw another rise during the Trump first presidency. And already we're beginning to sense that there will be yet another wave of those evangelicals rising to power. And you know, as I said, in their lust to power, they are willing to drive the whole region into madness. Thank God nothing happened when the embassy was moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. And then Trump said, I did it for the evangelicals. And again, when evangelicals support such a move, they base it entirely on what I said the Bible said. So it's Jewish land. It's the supremacy of the Judeo Christian tradition and they want to impose it on everyone else. It doesn't matter to them what the international law or UN resolutions say. They are all irrelevant to them. What matters is how. It's not what the Bible says, it's their interpretation of the Bible. And this sense of, as I said, the sense of supremacy comes also in how they look at people who are different than them. You know, let's remember that. And as much as I still value many things in the evangelical tradition, I think it's important to call these attitudes of prejudice, to call them out. And at the end of the day, you know, when talking to Christian Zionists or when evaluating Christian Zionism, there are multiple ways on doing it. There is, of course, I'm a theologian. So let's read the Bible. Does the Bible say so does the Bible really call us to support a Jewish state today? And then there's also the other question, does it matter? In other words, is it relevant how we read scripture text like Genesis 12, I will bless those who bless you. And so is this how we resolve issues today? By looking at religious texts and trying to decide to whom did God promise the land? And many times when I speak to evangelicals honestly, I say, are you listening to yourselves? Show me one other context in which you solve something by bringing a religious text and asking the question, to whom did the deity promise this piece of land? I mean, if we apply it in any other context, we will be called back minded. And you know, out of, you know, that we you know, weird and don't make any sense. But somehow here it becomes normal that we are willing to ignore history, people who lived in this land. And so I keep telling evangelicals, are you really listening to yourselves when you use the Bible for what's happening today? And I think it's also finally important when we talk about Christian Zionism to highlight that actually it's an oxymoron. And this is why, because what is Zionism and what did Zionism produce? We need to be honest about the nature of Zionism and the fruits of Zionism. You know, Jesus said, you shall know from their fruits, you shall know them Zionism from its. But by its definition, creating a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine necessitates the ethnic cleansing of Palestine because Palestine was not empty. So you want to create a homeland. It's not about going to Palestine to seek refuge. Let's remember that Zionism is not that Zionism is. We want to create a homeland on someone else's land. And the Zionist leader were clear there is a problem in Palestine in that it's inhabited. I think someone used the metaphor Palestine is this beautiful bride. But it's taken. So by definition, Zionism means the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. By definition, then what happened on practice is that Zionism created a state that discriminates against the Palestinians. Today we have a system of apartheid. Today we have a genocide. So when you look at all of this and we need to ask, can we put the word Christian before all of this? And for that matter, can we put the word Jewish before all of this? This is why groups like Jewish Voice for Peace now are very clear in that they oppose Zionism because they say we stand for freedom, equality and human rights. And Zionism is the antithetical of that. Zionism is opposed to all of that. I think it's important to be critical and call things by name. Zionism is ethnic cleansing and racism and colonialism. This is what Zionism is. I don't see how some people still try to romanticize Zionism. And I actually don't see a future for Palestinians and Israelis in this land together. If we truly hope to reach a day in which we share the land with an ideology like Zionism, it doesn't work. It only leads to violence, destruction, and the current result that we are in. And in this formula, the powerful wins, sadly, and it's the innocent people from both sides, but right now, especially from the Palestinians who pay the price.
- [55:12]
Chris Hedges
Well, it also requires vast historical amnesia. What is it? Seven centuries of historic Palestine has been dominated, you know, by Muslim rulers, the Ottomans and others. But you have to erase centuries and centuries of history and go back to a document that in the case of the Hebrew Bible, was written, what, 4,000 years ago. But it does require historical amnesia.
- [55:45]
Reverend Munther Isaac
Absolutely. And archaeology comes to aid. And if you want an illustration of all of this, just look up the whole industry of pilgrimage, biblical tourism, because you have millions before COVID and before this war coming to the Holy Land, as they call it, and going on a whole tour on sites that only existed in biblical times. The whole tour is designed as if to tell you that nothing exists in Palestine. There is nothing to see besides the biblical sites and the fact that Palestine was a desert and Israel turned into a Garden of Eden. They don't visit beautiful sites, beautiful pieces of history, including, interestingly, Byzantines, churches and all the, you know, pieces of art, Islamic art, Christian art. All of this is eliminated. And you come and visit the Holy Land and get the impression that it was empty for 2000 years. Jesus came here and then, you know, we walk in his footsteps by going to Galilee. And of course, you're not walking in Jesus footsteps of old. You walk in Jesus presence footsteps. When you spend time with people, care for the poor, for the marginalized, preach the kingdom of God, they do none of that. And instead they jump from place to place, which again, gives the impression that Palestine was empty for 2000 years. Nothing happened from the biblical times until today. Israel came to revive it and gave us the opportunity finally to visit the places where Jesus lived. And this, you know, Palestinian theologian Mitri Rahib said the Palestinians, and particularly the Palestinian Christians, were replaced by the state of Israel. And today, in the minds of most Christians, when you think of the land of the biblical land, the Holy Land, the first thing that comes to mind is Israel and the Jewish people, not the Palestinians and surely not the Palestinian Christians who lived here and survived for 2,000 years, who came, kept those sites for you, who kept the Christian presence so that now you can come and totally ignore that we actually exist on this land.
- [58:06]
Chris Hedges
Yeah, I mean, also, you know, archaeology by Israeli archaeologists is weaponized. So they will destroy layers upon layers of civilization in order to dig down to find the remnants of a synagogue or a Jewish community and discard the rest. I want to talk about what's happened to religious sites in Gaza. 80% of the mosques have been destroyed. And also what's happened to the Christian community. We should note that Palestinian Christians, not surprisingly, are the oldest Christian community in the world. They destroyed that Greek Orthodox The Israelis, Greek Orthodox Church. And in Gaza, they have the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. The slow. Let's call it the slow motion ethnic cleansing of Palestinians before the genocide has seen the Christian community. I think a few decades ago, Bethlehem was about 85% Christian. I don't know what it is now, but probably 20, you know, probably about 20% or something. But yeah, so there's been an assault against Palestinian Christians. They have not. The Israelis have been as fierce against them as they have against Palestinian Muslims. And I think, like you, I mean, one of the things that's been so disturbing about the genocide in Gaza is the way they have targeted religious institutions for destruction.
- [59:40]
Reverend Munther Isaac
Well, well, everybody's a target in this war. And nowhere is safe. No place is safe, tragically, for the Christian community. They thought the church was safe. But not only was the church, the historical church of St. Paulius bombed, I mean, the church itself still exists, but the building adjacent to it.
- [60:01]
Chris Hedges
Let me just interrupt you for people who don't know. I think this church goes back to.
- [60:04]
Reverend Munther Isaac
The 4th century, 5th century. So not only was, you know, it was targeted, thankfully, the church itself still exists, but the building adjacent to it fell on it, and it's now, you know, it collapsed. But it's. The historic church is holding it. 18 people were killed in that bombing. And also in the neighboring church, the Catholic Church, which is more recent, but two women were killed by snipers inside the premise of the church. Inside the church compound, nowhere is safe. And I think one of the myths of what's been happening in Palestine for the last years or so is that Christians are caught in between, as if, you know, we have nothing to do in this conflict and we're the victims, you know, as just by being bystanders. But nothing is, you know, this is not true at all. From 1948, Christians became refugees. Christian towns were destroyed, churches were closed, and since then, our land is confiscated. Many of our people were killed in the different uprisings, the wars and so on. We are Palestinians. And at the end of the day, Israel looks at us as Palestinians. And actually in some cases, especially in the Old city of Jerusalem, the heads of churches, it's not just me, you know, the heads of churches, the Orthodox, the Catholics, they have spoken, I think, three years ago of a systematic plan to empty Jerusalem of Christians. They talked about the attacks on Christian sites, the. The harassments, the incitements against Christian sites and Christian clergy spilling on them and burning churches and so on. So heads of churches in Jerusalem do not have used the language that we feel that we are being targeted. The Israeli police did some measures to try to stop this, but many still look with suspicions on the seriousness of these efforts to stop these attacks by the religious extreme Jewish groups on Christian sites. So, you know, again, nothing is further than the truth when you say Palestinians are caught in between or as if we have nothing to do with this conflict because we are part of the Palestinian people. We live under apartheid and our siblings in Gaza are going through a genocide. And really our hope right now in this Christmas season is that they survive. We want nothing other than their survivor and the rest of Gaza that hopefully by Christmas this war is over.
- [62:57]
Chris Hedges
Let's talk about Bethlehem and what the mood is like. I was in the West Bank, I was in Ramallah this summer. Since October 7, Palestinians who had jobs in Israel have been denied entry. The economic situation, especially in depressed areas like the Jenin refugee camp, is dire. I'm talking about shortages of food, water. The bulldozers when they. Israeli bulldozers when they go in, rip up not only the sewer pipes, but destroy the electrical grid. What is Bethlehem like now at Christmas?
- [63:36]
Reverend Munther Isaac
I actually feel bad talking about Bethlehem, giving the fact that there is a genocide in Gaza, and that's the only reason we're not talking about Bethlehem right now, is that it's nothing in comparison. But if we assess the situation here, by all means, it's the worst we've witnessed in many, many years on all levels. We are now almost completely isolated. There are more gates, more checkpoints, roads that are completely blocked. Sometimes they open the gates certain hours, sometimes we don't know they close them. So going from one place to the other in the west bank, so leaving Bethlehem to the north to Ramallah or to the south to Hebron, you need to think twice. I mean, do I want to go through hours of waiting at checkpoint or not? And in some cases, especially in the night, do I want to risk being the target of settlers attack or not? So we feel a strong sense of isolation and fear and anticipation thinking, what happened in Gaza? Could it be our fate if the world was silent over what happened there? What if the settlers actually do what they are telling us they want to do? So there is this fear and anticipation that caused actually many to leave. And at the same time you mentioned it, the fact that we are cut off Jerusalem, many Palestinians, and remember when I say many Palestinians used to work in Jerusalem, we're still talking about a tiny fraction of the Palestinian people, but even that tiny faction is no longer able to go and work in Jerusalem. So that has severe economic consequences all over the West Bank. But Bethlehem is suffering the most because of tourism. There is no tourism. There's hardly any tourists left in Bethlehem since October 7th. Bethlehem depends so much on tourism. So there is so much unemployment. And it feels sad that churches, now, most of our work actually has shifted from normal church life into sustaining families, helping people pay fees, trying to ask for help from outside so that we can sustain our families. I've never seen it this bad. And at the same time, I've never seen so much despair. And we are witnessing another ways, a wave of immigration. Tens of Palestinian Christian families have left the Bethlehem area since October 7th. And sadly, it's those who can afford to leave. Those who felt that they were able to survive Covid they will not be able to survive another two or three years without tourism.
- [66:32]
Chris Hedges
And just to close. As a Christian minister, how does your faith in this dark moment sustain you?
- [66:45]
Reverend Munther Isaac
First, we need to continue to fight to keep the faith. It's something I emphasize in my sermon over and over, that they can take everything from us, but they cannot take our faith. Faith in God and in the goodness of God. It's hard, but I strongly believe it's harder without faith in a just and good God. And when I said that God is under the rubble or Christ is under trouble, I was trying to bring God nearer to us and encourage people not to always think of, you know, we want survival, we want to be delivered, we want deliverance. But oftentimes God is experienced in the midst of pain. It's Christmas season, and I'm reminded of the meaning of the word Jesus. One of the names of Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us. This takes us to where we began. It's not simply that God is in my heart, but it's Emmanuel, God with us in the midst of injustice, in the midst of oppression. God with us when the holy family became refugees in Egypt, or God with us when the holy family had to leave Nazareth and come to Bethlehem for census and taxation and so on. So it's God with us when we go through checkpoints, God with us when we feel the sense of despair and that we are isolated and left as if abandoned. Christmas gives also this sense of hope because it's God's visitation to us. I always say Jesus was born on our side of the wall. You know, I see something in this, and I'm talking about the physical wall and beyond the psychological and spiritual walls that exist between the world and Palestinians that are embodied in this ugly physical wall that separates us from the rest of the world. And I say there is meaning in the fact that Jesus was born on our side of the world, whether 2,000 years ago or even today. And because of that, we have to continue to fight for that faith. And it's this faith that enables us to survive and to have hope. Because without this, I think. I don't think we can survive, honestly. Because if death has the final word, if the empire has the final word, if the logic of might is right, has the final word, then there is no sense of continuing this life here. Because ultimately, it's all in vain. But God has set his word. Whether it's Jesus and Christmas or whether it's the resurrection and Easter Sunday, we need to remember this. And, yeah, it feels dark right now. Honestly, it feels on the Saturday of the Easter story and the tomb, you know, dark, isolated, with no end in sight. But in the midst of this darkness, we're fighting to keep the faith, to remember that the final word ultimately belongs to our good God.
- [70:17]
Chris Hedges
Great. Thank you. That was Reverend Munther. Isaac. I want to thank Diego, Thomas, Sophia, and Max, who produced the show. You can find me at chrishedges.substack.com.
- [70:39]
Reverend Munther Isaac
Sa.