Why Israel Wants a War with Iran (w/ Gideon Levy) | Chris Hedges Report

Summary

The Chris Hedges Report

Episode: Why Israel Wants a War with Iran (w/ Gideon Levy)
Date: March 26, 2026
Host: Chris Hedges
Guest: Gideon Levy

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Overview

In this episode, Chris Hedges sits down with acclaimed Israeli journalist Gideon Levy to dissect the roots, motivations, and consequences of Israel’s longstanding campaign against Iran. Against the backdrop of Israel’s current war with Iran, Hedges and Levy probe the underlying political, cultural, and psychological drivers shaping Israeli policy, the extreme militarism dominating the country, the complicity of the media, and the potentially catastrophic regional and global fallout. The discussion extends into the changing political climate in the U.S., the core mindset shaped by trauma and exceptionalism, the dangers of Israel’s path, and the dwindling hopes for diplomatic solutions in the Middle East.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Israel’s Four-Decade Campaign Against Iran

• Historical Context
  Hedges opens the episode by charting Netanyahu’s relentless lobbying of the U.S. for a military confrontation with Iran, noting previous American reluctance, exceptions under Trump, and divergence in ultimate objectives:
  • Regime change vs. Balkanization of Iran into failed state
  • Securing global energy interests
  • Regional dominance for Israel (00:10)
• Quote:
  “Now that Israel has the war Netanyahu has dreamed of, what are Israel's ultimate objectives?” — Chris Hedges [00:10]

2. Netanyahu’s Mindset and Israeli Psychology

• The Perennial Enemy Narrative
  Levy explains the deeply ingrained national psychology:
  • Israelis, fueled by trauma and indoctrination, perpetually view themselves as besieged (David vs. Goliath).
  • Iran’s rhetoric feeds Israeli fears, justifying militarization.
  • Netanyahu is driven by a combination of genuine belief, political survival, and personal legacy.
• Quotable:
  “Always to look for an enemy, always to feel persecuted, always to victimize, always to feel we are the David and there is some Goliath who is going to exterminate us…” — Gideon Levy [04:33]

3. Overreach and Human Cost

• Massive Displacement
  Levy highlights unprecedented levels of forced displacement across Lebanon, Gaza, and now Iran — totaling six million.
  • Israel frames this as justified for security, but there is little debate or dissent in society.
  • “93% of Jewish Israelis support this war in Iran. 93%. That’s North Korea… This cannot be in a democracy.” — Gideon Levy [08:45]
• Moral and Practical Implications
  • Displacement and destruction yield long-term instability, not security.
  • Warning against repeating failures (e.g., Gaza vs. Iran).

4. Media and Education: Indoctrination and Self-Censorship

• Role of Israeli Media
  Levy criticizes media self-censorship:
  • War coverage omits Palestinian/Iranian suffering by choice, not government fiat.
  • Free press in name, but complicit in ignorance for commercial and patriotic reasons.
  • “Gaza…was not presented in Israeli media for two and a half years. Nothing except…in few smaller outlets. Anyone in Kansas saw more of Gaza than anyone in Tel Aviv.” — Gideon Levy [11:27]
• Education System
  Also underpins indoctrination through selective history, victimhood, and exceptionalism.
  • “Until the age of 20 I never heard the word nakba…” — Gideon Levy [13:54]
  • Embeds unwavering trust in the army and state.

5. The Limits of Israeli Power and the U.S. Factor

• Dependence on America
  Levy asserts Israel cannot wage large-scale war against Iran without full U.S. support.
  • "Israel will have to follow…whoever Donald Trump will decide, Israel will have to follow in this stage. Israel has no other choice…” — Gideon Levy [17:14]
• Potential Divergence
  Trump may seek an exit; Israel's influence is contingent and fragile.

6. Occupation, Regime Change, and the Cycle of Blowback

• Historical Lessons
  Levy and Hedges recount how Israel’s interventions spawned unintended, more radical adversaries (e.g., Hezbollah, Hamas).
  • “This Idea that we can change regimes...always ends up with a worse regime…like a gambler in a casino who is sure the next time it will go better. And it doesn’t.” — Gideon Levy [20:03], [21:24]

7. Declining U.S. Support & Future Existential Threats

• Political Shifts in America
  • Growing criticism of Israel across both parties.
  • Levy predicts a generational shift as U.S. elites emerge from campuses where pro-Palestinian sentiment is high.
  • “Biden was the last Zionist president. Trump will be the last president who will take into account Israel…” — Gideon Levy [22:23]
• Long-term Risks
  • The erosion of American backing poses a more serious existential threat than Iran’s nuclear ambitions.

8. Censorship, Self-Censorship, and the Erosion of Democracy

• Cultural Shift
  Official state censorship is less severe than in Israel’s early decades.
  • The larger concern: widespread, voluntary self-censorship among journalists and media outlets.
  • “The problem is the self-censorship is much worse because to self-censorship there is no resistance.” — Gideon Levy [25:55]
• Media Patriotism
  • Journalists boast about having reports approved by censors, signaling conformity and fear of dissent.

9. Assassination Policy and Regional Fallout

• Israel’s Strategy of Assassinations
  Systematic use of assassinations as state policy—starting with Palestinians, extending to Iranians.
  • Israel’s pride in these tactics is “not a healthy atmosphere to live in.”
  • “We murdered any possible political leader, not only military leaders…What danger is from a poet? [Ref: Ghassan Kanafani]” — Gideon Levy [30:29]
• Risk of Escalation
  • Targeted killings incentivize Iran to accelerate nuclear ambitions—a deterrence lesson from North Korea, Pakistan, and the fate of leaders like Gaddafi.

10. Prospects for Change in Israel and the Region

• Barriers to Diplomacy
  Little hope for change from Israeli leadership or public.
  • “I can't see any scenario in which Israel changes its policy. Because the problem is...it's now about the people. And the majority of Israelis support wars, support apartheid, support occupation, and don't want to see any change…” — Gideon Levy [38:38]
• Setbacks for Progressives
  Israel’s society drifts toward increased militarism, religious fundamentalism, and messianism.
• Hope in Minority Voices
  Hedges references the importance of voices like Levy’s as “islands” of conscience.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Highlight | |-------------|---------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:10 | Hedges | “Now that Israel has the war Netanyahu has dreamed of, what are Israel's ultimate objectives?” | | 04:33 | Levy | “Always to look for an enemy, always to feel persecuted, always to victimize, always to feel we are the David and there is some Goliath…” | | 08:45 | Levy | “93% of the Israelis support, the Jewish Israelis support this war in Iran. 93%. That’s North Korea…This cannot be in a democracy.” | | 11:27 | Levy | “Nothing except of how it's in few smaller outlets. You had no idea anyone in Kansas saw more of Gaza than anyone in Tel Aviv…criminal side.” | | 13:54 | Levy | “Until the age of 20 I never heard the word nakba. I had no idea what it is...I never asked what are those ruins? Who are their owners?...” | | 17:14 | Levy | “Israel will have to follow in this stage. Israel has no other choice and no other capability.” | | 21:24 | Levy | "Like a gambler in a casino who is sure the next time it will go better. And it doesn’t.” | | 22:23 | Levy | “Biden was the last Zionist president. I think in many ways Trump will be the last president who will take into account Israel…” | | 25:55 | Levy | “The problem is the self censorship is much worse because to self censorship there is no resistance…” | | 30:29 | Levy | “It starts with the Palestinians. In the 70s, we murdered any possible political leader…Kanafani, who was a poet. We murdered him in Beirut in 72. What danger is from a poet?" | | 38:38 | Levy | “I can't see any scenario in which Israel changes its policy…problem is...now about the people...the majority of Israelis support wars, support apartheid, support occupation…” | | 41:32 | Hedges | “The closest friends I made were actually Israeli left wing Israelis...they had a conscience as you do…” |

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Important Segments and Timestamps

• Intro, Overview, Key Questions (00:10–04:33)
• Netanyahu’s Mindset and Israeli Psychodynamics (04:33–07:58)
• Overreach and Displacement: Numbers and Morality (07:58–11:27)
• Media Complicity and Education’s Role (11:27–16:16)
• War Goals: America’s Role, Israel’s Limits (16:16–19:44)
• Historic Blowback: Creation of Hezbollah, Hamas, and Cycles of Violence (19:44–22:11)
• Declining U.S. Support, Existential Threats (22:11–25:28)
• Censorship: Official and Self-Imposed (25:28–29:09)
• Assassination Policy & Iran’s Likely Response (29:09–34:18)
• Prospects for Regional War and Internal Israeli Trends (34:18–41:32)
• Closing Notes: Minority Dissent, Fragile Hope (41:32–42:09)

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Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, somber, and incisive, blending Levy’s insider perspective and hard-won pessimism with Hedges’ probing questions and personal reflections.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is an unflinching dissection of the Israeli psyche, the machinations behind the war with Iran, and the cascading consequences for regional and global stability. Levy and Hedges challenge the narratives that underpin Israeli militarism, media complicity, and exceptionalism. They chart the dangerous trajectory of Israel’s policy choices and the risks of American disengagement, ultimately offering a rare inside-out critique that is as bleak as it is vital. Flickers of hope remain in the minority voices—journalists and activists who refuse to conform. For listeners seeking historical, political, and ethical clarity on the Middle East’s latest and most dangerous conflict, this episode is essential.

Transcript

[A]

For four decades, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been lobbying the United States to go to war with Iran. Previous administrations, Republican and Democrat, have refused in no small part because of fierce opposition within the Pentagon which did not view Iran as an existential threat and did not project a positive outcome for the United States or its regional allies. Donald Trump, encouraged by his inept negotiating team of his son in law Jared Kushner and fellow real estate developer and golfing partner Steve Witkoff, each fervent Zionist, however, took Israel's bait. Joseph Kent, who resigned from his position as the director of the National Counterterrorism center to protest the war, wrote in his resignation letter that Iran posed no imminent threat to our nation and it is clear that we started this war due to pressure from Israel and its powerful American lobby. The public rationale for the war on Iran since it began on February 28 has been protean. Is it to shut down Iran's nuclear program? Is it to thwart Iran's ballistic missile program? Is it because the United States carried out preemptive attacks on Iran, as Marco Rubio said, to ensure the safety of US assets once Israel decided to strike? Is it because the Iranian government carried out lethal repression, killing hundreds of anti government protesters during the massive street protests? Is it regime change? Is it an attempt to shut down Iran's so called state sponsored terrorism? Or are these subterfuges for something else? Certainly Israel and the US seek regime change, but here it appears the United States and Israel may diverge. Israel also apparently seeks, as in Iraq, Syria, Libya and Lebanon, the disintegration of Iran, the breaking apart of the country into warring ethnic and religious enclaves, the transformation of Iran into a failed state. Persians in Iran constitute roughly 61% of the population, one with various minority groups who often suffer state repression making up the remaining 39%. These ethnic groups include Azerbaijanis, Kurds, Baluks, Arabs and Turkomans, along with religious minorities such as Sunnis, Christians, Baha', I, Zoroastrians and Jews. The shattering of Iran into antagonistic ethnic and religious enclaves would leave Israel as the dominant power in the region, giving it the ability to, if not occupy its neighbors directly control and subjugate them through proxies, part of a long held desire for a Greater Israel. It would also make it possible for foreign states to control Iranian gas reserves, the second largest in the world, and its oil reserves 12% of the global total. Now that Israel has the war Netanyahu has dreamed of, what are Israel's ultimate objectives? How will those objectives be achieved? Is the dream of a Greater Israel possible or even realistic? And are the objectives of Israel inimical to the interests and security of the United States? Will the war, rather than see the Iranian regime crushed, spawn something far more deadly? A prolonged regional and perhaps even international conflict, One that will create havoc in the global economy and potentially draw in China and Russia? Joining me to discuss why the Israeli government has long sought a war with Iran and what it hopes to achieve is the Israeli journalist Gideon Levy. Gideon writes a column for the Israeli newspaper Aretz that often focuses on the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. His latest book is the Killing of Reports on a Catastrophe. And you can see an interview I did with Gideon in September 2024 about his book on my YouTube channel entitled the Looming Catastrophe in the Middle east, which I guess Gideon turns out to be pretty prescient. But let me, you know far more than I do. Let's go back. You know, Netanyahu, this has been a four decade long project. Why has Netanyahu been so intent upon it? What do you think he hopes to achieve by having drawn the United States and Israel into this war?

[B]

So first, thank you, Chris, for having me. Again, it is very hard to find one answer to all the very good questions you raised because we can't get into politicians and statesmen's mind. What motivates him. I think that it's a combination. First of all, we have to look at the mindset, the mindset of Israelis and the mindset of Netanyahu, which in many ways reflects the Israeli mindset, namely, always to look for an enemy, always to feel persecuted, always to victimize, always to feel we are the David and there is some Goliath who is going to exterminate us and to push us to the ocean. Iran paid its share because Iran, ever since this regime is in power, didn't stop threatening Israel. Only in words, but in very tough words. I mean, there is the big Satan and the small Satan. They kept on saying it day and night. And that's a good excuse or justification if you want to perceive Iran as a danger. The question is if was it or is it a real existential danger? Even if a nuclear Iran is an existential danger, that's an open question now, why did he go to this war? It's a combination. You know, many, many look for the answer in his personal ambitions and personal, namely he's facing charges in court, he's facing elections, he wants to live his heritage in history. And he failed until now. This was for him a Claim to fame. But I would give him more credit than this. And I think that he really believed Iran is an existential danger to Israel. And the only problem is that in his world and in most of the Israeli world, the only answer for danger is the military answer. There is no other answer. It's beyond the scope, it's beyond any place even to take it into account. War is always the first option, not the last one. In Israel. And you saw it in Gaza and you see it now. And last sentence, two and a half years we conducted one of the ugliest wars in Gaza. What did Israel achieve there? The goals were very similar. Regime change, fighting against a demon. Is Israel more secure now? Did Israel achieve its goals in Gaza, as I think that we didn't. Why not to draw a lesson for this, Isn't it enough? I mean, Gaza is not Iran. Hamas is not the regime in Iran. This is a total different scale. We failed with Hamas, so why do we think we will succeed there? But for Netanyahu, it's a different mindset.

[A]

And I mean, you're right that this is. And of course we're watching this massive assault on southern Lebanon at the same time, 1 million Lebanese displaced. It appears from a distance that what they're doing to southern Lebanon is attempting to replicate the complete obliteration of communities and dwellings as they did in Gaza. And Iran, unlike Hezbollah, unlike Hamas, has been able to inflict damage on Israel. Can we begin to use the word overreach? Has Israel just gone too far?

[B]

I think Israel went too far with Gaza already. It doesn't start now. It starts in Gaza. It was an overreaction out of proportion on any criteria, legal, moral and practical. And now it's just a continuous. Again, it's the same mindset right now when we are talking, Chris, there are 6 million human beings in the Middle east who were expelled, uprooted, displaced from their homes by Israel. 6 million. 1 million in Lebanon, 2 million in Gaza, 3 million in Iran. I want to stop for a moment and ask, does it make sense? Is it acceptable? Six million people? Let's put aside all the circumstances. But does anything justify replacing, uprooting 6 million people at a time who have no alternative in Gaza for sure, not in Gaza, they lost everything in Lebanon, part of them lost everything in Iran. I guess they'll be able to get back to their homes. But what is it? And for Israel, everything justified the goal. And there are even no questions, neither in the Israeli society, not only there are no questions or doubts, it's illegitimate. I Guess you paid attention to this North Korean figure that 93% of the Israelis support, the Jewish Israelis support this war in Iran. 93%. Give me one example of one subject, one topic that you will get you reach such a majority in a democracy. 93%, that's North Korea or maybe Belarus. This cannot be in a democracy that 93 people, 93 of people will think the same. But in Israel, when it comes to war, it's always reaching a majority. And when it comes to diplomacy, to compromises, to peace negotiations, to peace treaties, it's so much harder to gain a majority.

[A]

Well, you wrote a column, I think it was titled Everyone Here or Everyone in Israel Has Gone Insane. But you've also written quite scathingly about the Israeli media as just a propaganda machine for war.

[B]

Even worse than this, I think the big shame was in the Gaza war. Then it reached really the bottom of its last remains of dignity and professionalism. Gaza, as you know, was not presented in Israeli media for two and a half years. Nothing except of how it's in few smaller outlets. You had no idea anyone in Kansas saw more of Gaza than anyone in Tel Aviv. Now they did so, and this is the criminal side. They did so voluntarily. It's not because of political pressure by the government, not by the secret services, not by the military. Israel has still a free media, but this free media has decided that for commercial reasons, we are not going to bother our readers or viewers, and we are not going to let them know anything which might bother them. And 1000 babies killed in Gaza is something that most of the Israelis don't want to know, so we will not tell them. And 70,000 victims in Gaza is something that our viewers don't want to see, so we will not show it to them. And this is the big betrayal of Israeli media. Now it repeats itself now in Iran, but in different scale, because in the war in Iran, we know very little, and I think you Americans know also very little. Nobody really knows what's going on there. We hear all kind of official announcements, but what is really taking place on the ground, we don't know. So now we are also in darkness. But the real moral darkness was the behavior of Israeli media throughout the war in Gaza. This is unforgettable. They made Israel totally ignorant about what's going on on our behalf in Gaza, and they made Israel live in peace with everything that happened there.

[A]

I know Ilan Pape wrote a piece several years ago where he also blamed the Israeli education system. He actually called it a form of indoctrination. It wasn't just the media. In his eyes, he is right.

[B]

But I think that for the good and for the bad, the media has much more influence than the education system. Look, I am a graduate of Israeli education system in different times, obviously, but when I look forward, you know that until the age of 20 I never heard the word nakba. I had no idea what it is. I saw the ruins in Tel Aviv, all over Israel. I never asked what are those ruins? Who are their owners? Where are they? What happened to them? Why aren't they? Where's their properties? Nobody told us. We were told all kind of things by the education system. At this stage, it's really the education system. We told all kind of things which basically conducted or concluded few basic values that every Israeli gets with the milk of his mother. Namely, that we are the biggest victims in the world, that we have the David against the Goliath, that we are the chosen people. Yes, we are the chosen people. And therefore we have the right to do whatever we want. And that the Palestinians were born to kill and that's the only thing in their mind is how to kill us and to push us away from here. And when you are brought up in such an atmosphere with all those values, add to the fact that in my childhood it was few years after the Holocaust, so all those things were even more intensified. You get a very special Israeli, namely an Israeli who is totally convinced in anything that his army and his state is doing, who is not ready to get any criticism and immediately labels any criticism as antisemitism, who thinks that international law does not apply to Israel because Israel is a special case, who believes that Israel is a victim and there is no other victim like Israel in the world. And that's a very dangerous and obviously that we are the chosen victory. All this mindset is a very unhealthy mindset. And you see the outcome now when Israelis live in peace with Gaza and they will live in peace now with Lebanon.

[A]

Let me ask about Iran. So the reports certainly in the American press is that there is a divergence between the Trump administration and Netanyahu. You know, Trump is mercurial and changes his mind by the minute, of course, but that it appears that he would like a way, an exit, he'd like a way out. This is not going well for the global economy or for the U.S. frankly, or probably even for Israel. But. But that the assumption is that the Netanyahu government would like to. They can't do to Iran what they've done to Gaza or what they're doing to southern Lebanon because it's too big. It's the size of Western Europe. But they can obliterate its infrastructure and its, you know, much of its urban areas to create a kind of failed state, as I mentioned in the introduction. Is that the goal, do you think that is the Israeli goal?

[B]

I think the Israeli goal about Iran is quite irrelevant now, because whatever Donald Trump will decide, Israel will have to follow in this stage. Israel has no other choice and no other capability. Even from the military narrow perspective, Israel does not have the capability to conduct a war over Iran without the American Air force and the American army. It's just impossible. Even when it comes to something simple like, or not simple like fueling the jets. We need America. We need America for political support, diplomatic support, economical support, military support, supply arming, everything. Israel cannot go on with this war in Iran. And I don't think that even Netanyahu will even try once Donald Trump. You see, already when Trump said what he said one day ago about the possibility of ending the war very soon, Netanyahu kept silent. He didn't say a word. And if he said something, it was almost supportive. He knows he has no other choice. What is more problematic is continuing the war in Lebanon, because I guess that Donald Trump couldn't care less about Lebanon and he might let Israel continue in Lebanon. And that's my worry now. But as about the war in Iran, it all depends on Donald Trump.

[A]

But Hezbollah doesn't have the ability to inflict the damage on Israel that Iran has.

[B]

This is true. But they can continue as a war of attrition. And Israel can again, and started already to occupy more and more pieces of Lebanon and to destruct parts of Beirut. We have been in this scenario so many times. Never did Israel gain anything out of it. Here it really repeats itself, detail after detail, identical again, again and again. And never learn and always think that now it's the time. And this time it will be once and for all. And the only once and for all. As I wrote once, sorry for quoting myself, the only once and for all is the Israeli occupation. That's the only thing which is once and for all.

[A]

Well, we should be clear that Israel occupied Lebanon from 1982 to 2000.

[B]

18 years. Sure, 18 years. And we went out and nothing was solved. Not only for once and for all, even not for a few years.

[A]

And then it was even worse, Gideon, because it created Hezbollah. That's how Hezbollah was created.

[B]

Exactly. And Hamas was also partly created by Israel. I mean, it's always this Idea that we can change regimes and it always ends up with a worse regime. It's always about the assassinations. When we are sure that if we will just assassinate 12 leaders or 20 leaders, the problem will be solved and it always lead us to worse successors.

[A]

When I first got to Israel in 1988, there was a war against Faisal Husseini. I mean, imagine this Palestinian aristocrat and then of course Fatah and Arafat and then taking out, I knew Abdelaziz Rantisi, you may have known him as well, taking out these scholars. Rin TC was brilliant, whatever you think of his ideology. And Sheikh Yassin, these were the co founders of Hamas and you end up with Yahya Sinwar. So I think this is the point that the history has shown that these targeted assassinations, I knew Nizar Rayan as well, they don't result in more moderation. They spawn people who are more and more fanatical.

[B]

I don't get into the moral and legal question of the assassinations, even though it's very hard to ignore it because by the end of the day those are murders. And this is a behavior of a crime family. And the media collaborates with it, obviously. But let's put it aside. What is the utility of it? What has come out of it? And the amazing thing is that it repeats itself systematically and no less needs to again and again. No, this time it will succeed and it fails and will try again. Like a gambler in a casino who is sure the next time it will go better. And it doesn't.

[A]

Well, eventually gamblers go bankrupt, usually. At what point does Israel pay an existential price for this kind of behavior?

[B]

I think the real danger right now, and any friend of Israel or anyone who cares about Israel should concentrate now on what's going on in your country, in the United States, because in very few years time we will face a different United States when it comes to Israel and it will be dramatic. And I think all kind of voices who were not legitimate in the United States until recently are becoming louder and louder and all kind of questions are being raised about the taxpayers money, about the reason for all this, about the fact that not always is it clear who is the superpower, Israel or the United States. All kind of questions come up now in both parties. This is so interesting. It's not only in one party, in both parties. And as I saw that Biden was the last Zionist president. I think in many ways Trump will be the last president who will take into account Israel. I think the next ones, whoever it will be for them. Israel will be in a much lower priority. And then Israel really faces a challenge, which it never did because Europe is boiling against Israel. But they don't dare to do anything because of the fear of the American administration and the rest of the world. Obviously, in the rest of the world, Israel is already a pariah state. And without the United States, Israel will face a situation which it never faced before, which might be an existential threat, in my view, more than the Iranian nuclear bomb.

[A]

Well, I think one of the things that's so disturbing, of course, they shut down the student encampments which protested the genocide you had. I was in the encampment in Columbia and at Princeton, you know, on a rough estimate, 20 or 30% of those students were Jewish. So they shut down that protest to the genocide. But you see rising up on the far right a very raw antisemitism, a real antisemitism. It's not criticism of Israel, it's criticism of Jews.

[B]

Absolutely. And you know about it much more than I do. I just know that those students in those campuses are the next Secretary of State, the next Secretary of Defense, the next president, the next diplomats of the United States, the decision makers of the United States. And imagine yourself that this will be their mindset and Israel will face then. It can happen within very few years. We are not talking about long processes because I think the process is already happening now. Once Donald Trump will not be in the White House, I think Israel will really be in problem.

[A]

I want to talk about the censorship. In your long career as a journalist, there's very heavy censorship over Iranian strikes. You're not allowed to film. It's completely criminalized. Have you ever seen censorship like this within Israel?

[B]

So first of all, censorship in Israel in the 50s and the 60s was 100 times worse.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yes, because the scope of issues that we had to send to the censors was nothing to compare with today. Today it's really more or less only military issues. In those years, the energy policy of Israel we had to send to the centers, the immigration policy of Israel. I mean, nothing to compare those who many times long to the good, beautiful Israel. Forget that Israel in the first two or three decades was very problematic in terms of democracy. You know, the teachers, Arab Israeli teachers had to be approved by the Shabak, by the Israeli secret service teachers in the Arab schools. So let's not think that now it's the worst. The worst was many years ago. Secondly, I would like to argue with you that the censorship, as disturbing as it is, is not the main problem of Israeli freedom of speech. The problem is the self censorship is much worse because to self censorship there is no resistance. Look, let me be personal for a moment. I used to be often on Israeli tv at least once, twice a week as a panelist. Ever since the war in Gaza started, I was twice. In two and a half years I was twice on Israeli tv. This is not censorship, neither by the government nor by the army. Nobody told them not to bring me to this studio. They chose to do so because they know that this might make some viewers annoyed or whatever. This is the real censorship. When you do it by yourself for all kind of commercial, or because you are a coward and you censor yourself. I see the main danger. What they censoring now is mainly now the location of the rockets, of the missiles. I can live with it. I mean, first of all, Israel is the only democracy in the world with censorship at all. But I wouldn't overestimate this. Pay attention also to the ridiculous role that the journalists are playing. You know that in every, almost every report on TV they are proud to say it was approved by the censorship. What are you so proud about? Nobody asked them to say so. Yeah, you don't need to say this was approved, doesn't exist. But the journalists are so eager to show that they are so patriots and faithful to the system and don't raise questions and don't create any kind of doubts that they feel they need to say the truth by the Senate. Look how nice we behave. Look how faithful we are. For me it's shameful.

[A]

I have to say the US press is not far behind. Let me ask about the consequences of the war on Iran, in particular the targeted assassinations carried out against the Iranian leadership. What do you expect to come from this? You know, one has to assume that there would be a pretty concerted effort on the part of the Iranians at payback.

[B]

Yes. And they have many motivations to do so. The question is only their capability. If this regime will continue, I have no doubt that they will make many more efforts now to get nuclear weapons. Because once they will have the bomb, this war and many other wars will not take place. Nobody dares to attack North Korea, nobody dares to attack Pakistan, Nobody will dare to attack Israel or Iran. Sorry, if Iran has a. That's obvious. Yeah.

[A]

I just want to interject to say that, you know, in the Middle east it was the lesson of Muammar Gaddafi, who gave up his nuclear program to appease the west and look what happened to Him.

[B]

Absolutely, absolutely. And Nelson Mandela also gave up some capabilities, and rightly so. But in Israel, nobody thinks about it, obviously. But you asked about the assassinations, and here I must tell you that it follows a long, long, long policy of assassinating as a strategy. It didn't start in Iran. It starts with the Palestinians. In the 70s, we murdered any possible political leader, not only military leaders, people like Rahsan Kanafani, who was a poet. We murdered him in Beirut in 72. What danger is from a poet not to speak about any alternative leaderships? Abu Jihad, Abu Iyad, I mean, you name them, we tried to kill anyone. Arafat got some kind of immunity impurity, and he survived. And even about his end, we don't know everything, but this is a strategy of Israel, and Israel is very proud about it. I remember you are young, so you don't remember it, but I remember that Bulgaria used to send all kind of secret agents in Europe who would poison all kind of regime resistance with umbrellas. Poisoned umbrellas in the streets to the whole thing. I guess Bulgaria never was proud of it. Israel is so proud. For example, on the operation, the Beeper operation. Yeah.

[A]

When how this is what decapitated Hezbollah or. Well, I don't know if it decapitated it, but it's certainly. And they killed Nostra as well. But you're referring to these pagers that. I don't know, what is it? It was. Hundreds of people, right, were affected.

[B]

Hundreds of people lost their organs. Not hundreds of people were killed, but hundreds of people lost their hands, their legs. Good knows, hundreds in Israel. It's a source of pride. And you know, as an Israeli who cares about Israel, it makes me worry because this is not a healthy atmosphere to live in when you are so proud about assassinations or about this Page call. Page. How do you call the beepers? Page call.

[A]

Yeah, the pagers.

[B]

Yeah, the pagers. What's. Where does it lead us to what will be remembered from us that we keep?

[A]

Didn't Yeshayashu Leibowitz exactly paint where it leads to?

[B]

Yeah, but who listened? Who listened to him? You read today what he said. It's word by word what he had foreseen. And in many ways it's getting worse. And Labovich was really. They demonized him, dehumanized him, ridiculized him. And look what a giant he was. A real biblical prophet.

[A]

But we should just be clear for people who don't know his work, he talked about the poison of occupation and what it would do internally to Israel to its respect for human rights, its democracy, by essentially training a population to be prison guards and, you know, undercover agents and assassination squads. That, that, and of course he was stunningly prophetic.

[B]

And we are dealing with an orthodox Jew, a great intellectual who paid a price for those positions. But you know, we are so far away. I mean, today you can hardly, hardly today if there was a labor, nobody would even listen to him. And nobody will even cover what he says. At least then whenever he spoke, he was in the media, there was some respect to what he says. Today he will be totally dismissed.

[A]

How do you see? It's very dangerous to predict anything given the mercurial nature of the Trump administration. But where do you see the conflict going? The Iranians have twice negotiated in the war last 12 day war last June. Their negotiating teams have been assassinated, the Moderates have been assassinated. I think the message has been delivered clearly to the Iranians that there are no exits, that they at this point must inflict as much pain as possible. Many people argue that it doesn't really matter what Trump or Netanyahu want. The Iranians are going to make their adversaries pay. And of course, asymmetrically, through crippling the regional and the global economy. Where do you see it going?

[B]

So first of all, it depends much on the capabilities of the Iranians, not only on their ambitions. Sure, Iran will want to take revenge and how, but the question is if they will have the capability because, because still they are beaten now. It's not something that they will recover within few weeks or months to the same power. And the question is for the long run, first of all, they will have to make their choice if they want to continue with the same regime, with the same policy. I'm not sure this regime is so good for Iran. I'm not sure. And therefore it's really about them to decide. Because between liberal democracy and this fundamentalistic regime, there is a large scope and they can change also gradually, not only in a revolution of one day become Norway or Denmark, they can also go gradually and it depends much on them. Now we are still facing a good chance that a war like we face now will repeat itself in one, two years again. And as it seems now, this is the most probable scenario. And this will not make people think, why do we do those wars if it leads us to repeat them again and again? Why not to try something else? Why not to give diplomacy chance? But you know, you can whistle in the darkness, not much more than this. Same with the Palestinians. I believe that any of those conflicts could have been solved by diplomacy. Finally, we are dealing with human beings in our side, in the other side. Everything could have been solved in the wrong sea. I don't believe that war is inevitable. I really don't believe so. I know I sound maybe disconnected from reality, but I know one thing we never really tried.

[A]

But do you see that kind of a change? I mean, Israel seems to become more messianic by the minute. The settlers have seized control in a way that was not true when I was in Israel. Within the military, within, of course, the government, within the secret services, the settlers were always pariahs. One sees Israel not drifting towards a government that would embrace diplomacy, but becoming more and more phonetic.

[B]

Absolutely. And therefore I'm so skeptical and pessimistic. I can't see any scenario in which Israel changes its policy. Because the problem is that it's not about the leadership, it's now about the people. And the majority of Israelis support wars, support apartheid, support occupation, and don't want to see any change and don't believe in any change. So it's far beyond who is going to replace Netanyahu. We have a problem with people who reach the point in which it's becoming more militaristic than ever, more religious than ever, more messiah than ever. And those processes are very hard to stop.

[A]

Are those processes suicidal for Israel?

[B]

I don't want to sound too dramatic. I mean suicidal. I never thought that the question if Israel will exist was ever a relevant question. The only question is what kind of Israel and Israel can turn into a place that neither you nor me will want to have anything with it. Israel will exist. It is strong. And I guess that any American administration will still not lose totally Israel, even though I'm sure the support will be decreasing dramatically, as I said. But the question is what for? I mean, if we turn into. There are still wonderful islands in Israel, Chris, wonderful people, which really, I can just be amazed how they all still stay here, even though some are living. But they are really wonderful islands. They are a minority and they are delegitimized, unfortunately. And the tendency is a very negative one demographically and politically and socially. You see how things are getting worse and worse and worse. The settlers take over, the Orthodox take over. The army that I was fighting against decades ago is much worse. Army now with all the settlers in all kind of high positions. And the government is real fascist government, you can't find any other word. But you see all the other systems, the legal system, the education system, you see how system after system, they change. How do you stop it? I wish I knew. We don't have the leadership for this and we don't have the people for this.

[A]

Well, your voice, I mean you can't discount for those of us on the outside how important you are, Amir Haas and a few others. I mean that's where hope is. And I just, you know, I lived in Israel. I was overseas for 20 years. I'm fiercely critical of the genocide and the apartheid and however, and this reminds me when you talked about these islands, the closest friends I made were actually Israeli left wing Israelis, but Israeli and they were literate and they had a conscience as you do and they had the courage to speak out. So.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So that's, you know, whatever flickers of hope, that's, that's where they lie. Thank you, Gideon. And I want to thank Sophia Thomas and Max who produced the show. You can find me at chrishedges.substack.com. Sa.