← The Chris Hedges Report
The Chris Hedges Report
Will Zohran Mamdani Empower or Betray the Working Class? (w/ Kshama Sawant) | The Chris Hedges Report
01:00:39
Loading summary
Transcript20 lines
- [00:10]
Chris Hedges
Hedge fund billionaire Bill Ackman, enraged by Zorhan Mamdani securing an overwhelming majority to become the Democratic Party's nominee to run for mayor of New York City, said he and his wealthy associates will pour, quote, hundreds of millions of dollars, end quote, in into the candidacy of anyone willing to run against Mamdani in the general election. Ackman, who supports Donald Trump, added that he has an unnamed candidate he is ready to bankroll. Major Democratic Party donors who poured tens of millions of dollars into a super PAC to support former Governor Andrew Cuomo in his run for mayor are also meeting to decide if they will fund an independent run by Como in November or or back the unpopular incumbent Mayor Eric Adams, who is running as an independent. Mamdani's grassroots campaign, Como's campaign outspent him 20 to 1, centered around raising the minimum wage, tax hikes on businesses and the rich, creating city owned grocery stores, making city bus service free, and imposing a rent freeze for stabilized tenants. The victory by the self described Democratic socialist who was mercilessly smeared for his denunciation of the genocide in Gaza and promised to honor the arrest warrant issued for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu if he appeared in New York City has sent shockwaves through the ruling billionaire class and the Democratic Party establishment that supported Como. While Mamdani was endorsed by Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and Nydia Velasquez, who serve in the state's congressional delegation as well as Bernie Sanders, they were the singular exceptions. The hierarchy of the party has either remained silent since Mamdani's victory or been openly antagonistic. New York Senator Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic leaders of the Senate and the House, refused to back Mamdani's candidacy. New York Representative Laura Gillen, speaking for many in the party, called Mamdani the, quote, absolute wrong choice for New York, end quote. Democrats, along with their major donors, can be counted on to attempt to sabotage Mamdani's campaign just as they did with the campaign of Bernie Sanders with when he sought the presidential nomination for the Democratic Party. It remains, it seems, impervious to reform. What does this election portend? What does it mean for the future of the Democratic Party? Is Mamdani's victory a sign that there are growing cracks in the edifice of the party? Or will it drive the party further to the right and see it destroy the candidacies of those who seek to address the domination of our political system by the billionaire class and the punishing social inequality? Joining me to discuss Mamdani's victory and what it portends, as well as her own campaign to be elected as a Democratic Socialist to Congress in Washington State, is Shama Sawant. Shama is a leader for Workers Strike Back and Revolutionary Workers. And as a city council member she battled against the established Democratic party leadership and the city's oligarchs who poured millions into campaigns to defeat her, including an unsuccessful effort to oust her in a recall vote. Amazon alone spent over $3 million to defeat her run for office in 2019. Sawan helped lead the fight in 2014 that made Seattle the first major American city to mandate a $15 minimum wage, hourly minimum wage. Following a three year struggle against one of the richest men in the world, Jeff Bezos and his political establishment, she and her allies pushed through a tax on big business that increased city revenues by an estimated 210 to 240 million dollars a year. She was part of the movement that led to Seattle's successful ban on school year evictions of school children, their families and school employees. She was one of the sponsors of a bill that protects tenants from being evicted at the end of their term leases, requiring landlords to provide tenants with the right to renew their leases and prohibiting landlords from evicting tenants for non payment of rent if the rent was due during the COVID civil emergency and and the renter could not pay due to financial hardship. You can find her@shama sawant.org so let's begin with Mamdani's victory, what you think it means, and the Democratic Party's response. And I just want to add, you yourself, when you were on the City Council, spent most of your time battling the Democratic Party establishment or much of the time.
- [05:22]
Shama Sawant
Oh, all the time actually. The Democrats on the City Council in here in Seattle opposed every single progressive measure that my office fought for. But yeah, Mamdani's primary election victory in the Democratic Party in New York City for the mayoral election is first and foremost a stinging rebuke of the Zionist lobby. It shows that, that it is possible to defeat the Zionist lobby and it is possible to win. In fact, you mentioned in your introduction that I'm running for Congress right now against and I'm running against this genocidal warmongering Democrat, Adam Smith, who has voted for the genocide repeatedly to send tens of billions of dollars to the Israeli state for the genocide. He also voted for the war in Iraq back in 2002 and he also voted to create ICE and he is bankrolled by the Zionist lobby in Last year's election, AIPAC was his top contributor. He's also backed by dystopian corporations like Palantir, which profit from war and mass slaughter. And so this primary victory of Mamdani actually has injected huge confidence in the thousands of people who are supporting our campaign here. So many people have messaged me personally saying I'm so excited about this victory because it shows that you can defeat the Zionist lobby. So I think first and foremost we have to recognize what a huge victory that is. It's also given how relentlessly Mamdani has campaigned using his working class demands. It's also a real boost of confidence for working class people nationally to see that, yes, working people will fight alongside you if you put forward demands that make a huge difference in their lives and which reflect their anger, their just anger at the Wall street billionaires. I mean, Mamdani's campaign has call for a $30 an hour minimum wage, for a rent freeze, for free transit, for fully funded childcare. And so these are things that working people need. And so if a campaign can succeed on that basis, it shows that working people are willing to push forward on those demands. And it's also, I have to say, a resounding rebuke to the union leaders, not the rank and file, but the union leaders who endorsed Cuomo in the primary. I mean, can you imagine what kind of union leader do you have to be to endorse somebody who's so discredited that he's even too much of a hot potato for most of the Democrats, you know, to maintain their own credibility? They don't want to touch him because he has 15,000 COVID deaths on his hands. He has all kinds of other corruption charges. He also has been accused by at least a dozen, probably 13 women of sexual harassment. And so it's just mind boggling, although not surprising. It's just incredible that the leaders of ufcw, of rwdsu, of the Teamsters, of seiu, all these major unions, the carpenters, all of them supporting Cuomo. So I think they have really been put to shame. And it is important to see that, for example, SEIU leaders have already now said they're endorsing Mamdani, but it really exposes the unholy ties of the labor leadership with the Democratic establishment. And so I think the question is not is this a real confirmation of the kind of political demands we need to put forward and that the opposition to the genocide and the demand to end the genocide, should that be front and front, front and center of election Campaigns in the coming year. No, that's not the question. This is shown that it actually, that's exactly what we should be doing. The outstanding question here is what will it take to win any of these demands? And that's where I think we have to conduct a lot of examination. I mean, I think the experience that we had on the Seattle City Council, we, you know, my fellow socialists and I had the city council office for a decade in Seattle. And what it took for us to win the historic victories, many of which you enumerated, it took what I would call a fighting strategy. And what does a fighting strategy mean? A fighting strategy, first and foremost means that you understand that capitalism is a zero sum game and that you cannot hope to win any substantial victories. I'm not talking about crumbs, but substantial reforms in the interest of the working class. By thinking that you are going to sweet talk the billionaires into agreement with you, it also requires understanding that the Democrats and Republicans, despite their differences, they both represent the interests of the billionaires of capitalism. And so you're not going to sweet talk them either. And you don't go into the halls of office by thinking that they are your colleagues and they're, you're going and they're going. You're going to have good conversations with them and reach some sort of agreement with them. No, you have to understand that this, this is posed as an adversarial task. By definition. You didn't make it. Working people didn't make it. Adversarial Capitalism is adversarial towards the working class. The only question is, are we going to fight back or are we going to roll over and die? And so again and again and again, what we saw in Seattle was the Democratic Party carrying water for the big business entities, for big corporations like Amazon and Starbucks, for the Chamber of Commerce, for corporate landlords. And for us to win any of these victories that we won, I first and foremost had to be clear and working people alongside me had to be clear that this is class war and that the way we win is by using my office to build mass movements and mass movements not just to come to City hall and beg the Democrats to do the right thing, but mass movements that are just defiant in character, that demand that unless you do this, we are going to vote you out of office. We are going to throw you out of office. So that adversarial character is fundamental to winning something big. Like, you know, for example, the victory that we won on minimum wage, that is the highest wage in the nation because Part of the battle we waged when we fought for $15 an hour was to win inflation increases. The Democrats fought us viciously on that. We were still able to prevail. Why? Because I launched the 15Now movement in Seattle, and it mobilized Seattle's working class in the thousands. And so many of them were involved in our action conferences. It was a democratically organized movement where the rank and file of the movement had the say in strategic decisions. We literally had debates and voting. It took that strength of the mass of the working class to win not only the nation's first $15 an hour minimum wage, but also inflation increases. And that's why today Seattle's minimum wage is the highest in The Nation at $20.76. So I would just, you know, I would just say that, though for the working class to win in New York City will take this similar approach, the question is. The question is not, can Mamdani win through a strategy of playing nice with the billionaires? No, that's not the question, because you can't win that way. All of history shows that. The question is, will he do what he did, what we did in Seattle, in order to win similar victories in New York City?
- [12:59]
Chris Hedges
Well, that is a break with you. I mean, there's one strong similarity between the campaigns that you ran and the campaigns that he ran, and that is that you appealed to disaffected voters on the right or people who just didn't vote at all on these basic economic issues. I find that a kind of parallel. But I think the difference which you just enunciated is that you always took an adversarial position. And he has talked about making New York, you know, a wonderful place for everybody, including billionaires. And I think you're saying that's a big mistake.
- [13:37]
Shama Sawant
Yes. Because, you know, in a deeply divided situation like capitalism is, you cannot lose sight of the fact of, as I said earlier, that capitalism is a zero sum game. What does that mean? It means that when we won the $15 minimum wage, for example, and now that it's gone even higher because of inflation increases being built into it, that money is making the lives of the least paid workers, the poorest of the working class, much better. Because even a few dollars extra an hour makes a life difference. You know, it makes the difference between being able to pay your rent or being evicted and then being forced to couch surf again and again, which many families, in fact, even families with children are forced to do. But that money comes from the profits of the billionaires, the big business entities the multimillionaires. And so it is inevitable that if you fight for something substantial like a major increase in minimum wage, that will create a political clash with big businesses. And that's why it's no surprise that what's his name, Bill Ackman, the Trump supporting billionaire who is apoplectic about Mamdani's primary victory. That's no surprise. That is him representing the interests of the billionaire class. And so the working class cannot afford to blur the class lines. And when I was asked repeatedly by reporters, but you know, you speak so combatively, but as an elected official, aren't you running to represent all your constituents? They'd asked me that repeatedly. You would never catch me saying that I am representing everyone. In fact, I reminded them, you know, one of the constituents of my Seattle city council district when I was on the city council for 10 years was, and it still is, I assume, the billionaire former CEO of Starbucks, Howard Schultz, extremely anti worker, absolutely viciously anti union, union busting CEO, billionaire. And I said, howard Schultz lives in my district. I don't represent him and he doesn't agree with me. I mean, these are class lines. And blurring the lines does not help the working class. It actually helps the ruling class. I mean, it sort of signals to the ruling. If you say that you're going to represent everyone, it signals to the ruling class that you're open for conversation, you're open to discussion with them. And that discussion means only one thing, which is that they will push you, put pressure on you, and they will use the carrot and the stick to put pressure on you to sell out. And I've experienced all of that. You know, when I first entered City Hall, I've experienced both the carrot and the stick. There were city council members and also others in the Democratic Party who tried to flatter me, make this about me. You know, they said things like, well, you know, you are just such a superstar, but you need to dissociate yourself from this socialist ideology because that's not going to be good for your political career. And you know that therein lies the problem is that no matter how well intentioned you are, and let's assume that new people are well intentioned, no matter how well intentioned you are, if you don't understand that careerism is one of the death knells of winning anything substantial for the working class, then you will sell out, even with those good intentions, because you will make it about yourself. And you will immediately get the memo that in order to fight for working people, you will need to be in battle mode every single day when you enter this, enter city hall or the halls of Congress, because the only other option is for you to sell out, because there's no option that you will convince them into agreeing with you. Why? Because at the end of the day, the Democratic Party is a party of capitalism itself. And yes, there are differences with the Republican Party, but it's like Chomsky said, that there's smart way to keep people passive and obedient, and that is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum. And so what that means is that in the case of the Democratic and Republican parties, is that, yes, there are differences between them, but if you don't understand that they both represent the billionaire class and they're there and their differences are there so that the working class can perennially be dangle this, you know, you either support Democrats or Republicans, but at the end of the day, the working class loses out more and more and more and is subjected to more and more misery with every passing decade. Then you're not going to stand up for working people.
- [18:35]
Chris Hedges
Well, I think also the mistake is that you can placate this the billionaire class, which Mamdani seems, at least rhetorically to be saying he can do.
- [18:45]
Shama Sawant
Yes. And in fact, he's saying that in many concrete ways. Like for example, in his recent MSNBC interview, I think it was just today or yesterday, they played a clip of, you know, he's been calling for taxes on the rich, which of course I strongly support. I strongly support all the demands that he's running on in terms of the minimum wage increase, rent freeze and taxes on the rich and childcare funding and all of that. But he, you know, they played a clip of Governor Kathy Hochul, Governor of New York, saying, you know, very clearly saying she's not going to be for taxing the rich. She's very clearly declaring that that is absolutely not something that she wants to do. But his response to that was again along those lines of I'm excited to work with her on this. What does that mean? I don't understand what that means. I mean, you have to use your interview appearances to speak not to that MSNBC journalist who is representing the ruling class line or Governor Kathy Hochul, who is an arch corporate Democrat. She represents a billionaire class. Your interview appearances, if you're a socialist and fighting for working people, has to be to speak to the working class audience that's not in front of you, but millions who are watching out there. And your Message needs to be, first of all, truthful. And being truthful means you cannot send an illusion to the working class that somehow Kathy Hochul can be talked into taxing the rich. Somehow Bill Ackman can be convinced that a rent freeze is also in his interest. It will improve his quality of life as well. It's something that Mamdani has said as well that, oh, you know, if we do these progressive things, it will improve the quality of life not only of working people, but also of the billionaires. That's simply not true in the sense that the billionaires don't want to part with, with the billions of dollars that they have. I mean, the $15 an hour minimum wage that we won, that meant $3 billion of profits from business, big business taken away to fund workers. And you have to declare that proudly in the sense that you don't represent the billionaire class. So as much as wealth you can take from them, that's a good thing, that's a moral thing, that is a just thing and that is an honorable thing to fight for. And, and it is actually disarming working class movements to send them, as I said, an illusion that somehow the class lines can be blurred, that somehow you can make agreement with the ruling class. And I think that if we want, if Mamdani wants to, I don't know that he does. And I'll talk about his previous record, but if he does want to build movements, and you know, I absolutely want him to do it. I absolutely want him to build the movements. And if he's going to build the movements after he's elected, if he's elected, I will personally be there wanting to rally with him. I will personally help the movement to win a $30 minimum wage in New York City. Because if they win, that would be an earth shattering victory. It would be an enormous call to action nationally and it would put a lot of pressure on the Democratic Party to push for a $25 an hour minimum wage federally. All of that would be a fantastic thing. And like I said, I'm pledging here and now that I will be right there in New York City because pounding the pavement to win any of these victories, the question is, will he do what is needed in order to actually win this? And you know, in terms of his previous record, the reason I'm, I'm expressing skepticism is not that I don't want him to do it. As I said, I really hope that he does it, but it's also my responsibility. I am also representing working people and, and it is My obligation, my political and moral obligation to use my platform to speak the truth again, not to send out illusions, but speak the truth. And even if not, everybody agrees with me at this moment. But if you look at the record that Mamdani has. Mamdani is not new to politics. He has been. He won his first state Assembly, New York State assembly election in 2020, and he has been on the New York State legislature for four years. And in fact, since that time, the New York dsa, which he's part of, the Democratic Socials of America, they've had eight elected officials in the New York State Legislature. And they have certainly won some things. But to be honest, whatever they have won is far, far from commensurate to having eight elected positions. I mean, can you imagine what we would do with eight elected positions? To imagine that? Look at what we did with one elected position? You know, we, like I said, we experienced both the carrot and the stick. So I experienced a lot of flattery, but I also experienced the stick. And the stick never goes away. Once you, once the ruling class and their parties, the Democrats and Republicans, are clear that you are not going to be bought, that you are not going to sell out, then come all the vicious attacks which never relent. And so for working people to succeed, we need leadership. And it's not just about elected representatives. It's also in City hall or Congress. It's also elected leaders in the labor movement, unelected leaders in social movements. We need leadership in all of these avenues that are clear that that is what it takes, that in order to win for working people, it takes you as the leader to take those body blows. Because if you don't, then you're selling out working class people. That's what you owe. It's your duty and you should consider it. Your honor, you know, it's an honor to be able to play this role. But as far as what the New York DSA did in the several years that they have had positions, they have not won any victories commensurate with having eight elected positions. And in fact, it's really telling that Mamdani himself, you know, he had his two reelections. He was first elected in 2020, then he had his reelections in 2022, and then last year, 2024, and he ran unopposed both years, which means neither the Democrats, neither did the Democrats contest him in the primaries, nor did the Republicans run any candidate against him in the the general election. Such a thing does not happen if you are fighting for working class people. Because if you are Fighting for working class people, you are going to become enemy number one to the Democrats and Republicans. There is absolutely no universe where you will not have a fight on your hands and let alone run unopposed. I mean, in our case, I won all of my four elections on the city council. But every subsequent election, the ruling class, Jeff Bezos, Amazon, corporate landlords, the Democratic Party, they fought more viciously than they did against me. In the previous election in 2019, the most prominent progressive, quote, unquote, Progressive Democrats, they Latina women progressive Democrats, they ran openly, ran a candidate against me, saying, oh, we agree with her, but she's just not nice. We need a nice guy or whatever. And we defeated them. We defeated Amazon that year. And then again in 2021, my last election, that was not even a scheduled election. It was a recall attempt against me by corporate landlords, by Trumpian billionaires and the Democratic Party. And we defeated them also. So, you know, it doesn't reveal everything, but it is a rule of thumb. It's a barometer. If your elections are. If your every subsequent election is not a bigger fight than before, then you haven't become a threat to the ruling class. And if you haven't become a threat to the ruling class, then you're not winning for the working class. You may be winning your own elections, but not for the working class.
- [26:44]
Chris Hedges
Well, they're clearly going to go after him. I mean, the position, look what they did to you as a city council member. He's running for the mayor of New York. And I want to talk about maybe the three entities that will try and take him down. Let's begin first with the Zionists. They aren't going to take this lightly. He has been, you know, very courageous about standing with the Palestinians. Then let's talk about the Democratic Party and then let's talk about the billionaire class. These are formidable opponents. And the money that will pour into any campaign to bring him down will be staggering. I mean, it already was. I mean, I think Como got 22 million or $25 million. I think Mamdani raised about a million. But those numbers will, in terms of funding, opposition will jump exponentially. Well, let's first start with the Zionists, because I saw this, as I did see his victory as essentially puncturing that monolithic, especially in New York City, that monolithic power that the Zionists have.
- [27:56]
Shama Sawant
Yes, absolutely. I mean, this is a devastating blow, actually, to the Zionist lobby. And the specific thing, I think I like the choice of words that you said. You said puncturing. I think that is an Important thing to note because for a long time it has, you know, it has seemed to everyone that it is impossible to defeat the Zionist lobby. We saw what happened with Jamal Bowman, you know, where it was in the Democratic primary that the Zionist lobby and APAC specifically poured just unprecedented millions and millions of dollars to defeat him. And there's been this idea, they have sort of fueled this idea that the Zionist lobby and AIPAC and other organizations like that, that they are impervious to any opposition from the anti war movement and that you just have to accept it. You just have to accept it. And especially in the Democratic and Republican parties. I mean, obviously the Republican Party's openly anti worker, pro war. They don't even make any bones about it. The main challenge as far as working class consciousness is concerned is exposing what the Democratic Party actually stands for. And the Democratic Party is much more exposed now than it was before. I mean, the approval ratings are in the toilet. The genocide started under Biden. You know, this was a genocidal president with a genocidal vice president. So both the candidates in the Democratic primary last year were or from the Democratic Party were genocidal candidates running against Trump, who's also war mongering and genocidal. So that was the choice, false choice between genocidal and genocidal. That's the kind of realm that we have been operating in. We also saw AOC go to the DNC floor and say this lie through her teeth saying that Kamala Harris was working tirelessly for a ceasefire, which we know is complete fabrication.
- [29:52]
Chris Hedges
I just want to interrupt you when you talk about the disease of careerism. She's kind of the poster child.
- [29:57]
Shama Sawant
Yes, AOC is a poster child for careerism. That's absolutely accurate. And that is why it is important for us to talk about, have a serious conversation about what will it take to win any of these victories in New York City, let alone ending the genocide, which is a far harder thing to do. Ending the genocide will take ending all US military funding to the Israeli state, which you know that if you think about that demand, this is the demand that we're calling for in our congressional campaign. That demand pits you directly, directly against all of us and Western imperialism. I mean, these are powerful, powerful dystopian forces. It pits you against multi billionaires like Alexander Karp, who if you've heard him speak, they delight, they positively delight in the mass slaughter of Palestinians. I mean, this is happening at another level. In fact, what's happening right now and in the Israeli state is at another level. So there is a feeling that, well, I'm against for ordinary people, I'm against a genocide, but I don't know what to do because these are just too powerful of an entities. Group of entities to go up against. So I think that puncturing that idea has been crucial. And then I think in order to actually push forward on these demands, then it is going to be really. That's where the rubber hits the road, so to say. Because from now until the general election of the mayoral election, it's a question, you know, which way will Mamdani move? And I would say that, you know, one thing he has going for him is that the. His most. I mean, the Republican opponent is really weak from what I understand. Curtis Sliba. I mean, he's not like he's some credible opponent.
- [31:52]
Chris Hedges
No, he's not a credible opponent. It'll either be they'll fund Adams, they'll fund Como, or Ackman says he has an unnamed candidate he wants to fund. Although, you know, I wonder if an Ackman puppet is going to do particularly well. I don't know.
- [32:12]
Shama Sawant
Yeah, I don't. Yeah. I mean, of course, you know, in war and elections, it is foolish to say the last word on what's, you know, predictions, as you and I both know. However, I think it is important to note that one thing that he has that Mamdani has going for him is that both these Democratic Party or now they're going to run as not Democrats, but as whatever, something else. But regardless, Eric Adams and Andrew Cuomo, both figures of the Democratic Party, are so deeply discredited that the chances for Mamdani to actually win are pretty strong. The question will be what he does between now and the general election if he keeps. If he not only does not relent on his demands, which he doesn't seem to be doing. I mean, even now he's relentlessly going for. For his demands, which is actually a very positive thing that I really appreciate that he is making. He's not shying away from the demands for even a second and he is relentless about them. But in addition to that. So he needs to keep doing that. But in addition to that, I think he needs to. Which I don't expect that he will. But I'm just saying what he needs to do in order to win the. Not so much win the election. That's my point. I'm trying to disentangle the question between question of winning the election for himself and winning the demands that he's running on. Those are two separate questions to Some degree, because there's just a favorable electoral calculus right now that he's facing where he could possibly win even if he started sliding on his demands. Maybe, I don't know, but it's certainly not the kind of difficult situation that we were facing. But as far as setting the stage, as far as using his election campaign for setting the stage to win any of these demands, that's the most paramount question. And for that, I am strongly convinced that he needs to move away from this talking point of, oh, I'm, you know, billionaires will also love a city with a rent freeze. And I'm looking forward to working with Kathy Hochul, moving away from that to saying, look, the Democratic Party establishment itself, the Democratic Party itself is opposed to the things that I'm calling for. And that's why I need working people to join me rather than continually bringing up this idea that it's all about discussions and meetings with the powers that be. You know, I'll talk to the governor and I'll talk to the billionaire. Instead of all this emphasis on the halls of power. Instead his talking point should be, and we're calling for a rally on such and such date. I want working people to show up. I want black, white, Latino, Asian, all of you to show up. Because working class people need to fight together. Let's call for a march for $30 an hour. Let's march around city hall, you know, that type of thing. Or march outside Bill Ackman's house. I mean, presumably he lives somewhere in Manhattan, something like that. March outside Trump Tower. Let's call big rallies again in Trump Tower. And it's not only that, it's also for him to say openly, you know, Governor Kathy Hochul, she's selling out workers. She said she does not want any taxes on the rich. Do you agree? You know, telling working people, don't put any faith in Kathy Hochul. Don't put any faith in any of these Democrats. You know, Chuck Schumer, he has blood on his hands. Chuck Schumer has blood on his hands. Hakeem Jeffries has blood on his hands. Richie Torres has blood on his hands. That's the kind of language, I mean, we don't use this language as Marxist, incidentally, just because, oh, emotions are running high. It's not like that. It's about clarifying to the working class what is the character of capitalism and its warmongering representatives, warmongering anti worker, anti union representatives, and how do you fight against them? Those are two very key tasks for revolutionaries. And I think That's a difference between how most what I would call reformist candidates or reformist leaders act and how a revolutionary socialist like myself acts, where we start by clarifying the nature of capitalism itself. That is part of revolutionary politics. But ironically, Chris, revolutionary politics also makes you the best fighter to win the biggest possible reforms. Because once you understand the class nature of capitalism and you understand how working people need to be mobilized, you, that is what empowers your side to go up against all of these forces, and that's what will be needed. For example, as you said, we started with the Zionists. The Zionists, you correctly said the Zionists are not going to rest on this. They're not going to say, oh, we give up. Oh, he won the primary. No, they're going to do everything in their power to try and defeat him. And it's important that he doesn't waffle on the things that he has already said. Mamdani. And, and also, he needs to go much farther along the lines of what I was saying.
- [37:10]
Chris Hedges
Well, he needs to take a lesson from Jeremy Corbyn. These are not people who, number one, can be placated or number two will not, no matter what you say, viciously attempt to bring you down. I want you to talk about what he can expect. You experienced constant campaigns to deceit you from the city council. He's running for a much more powerful position. What can he expect from the Zionists? What can he expect from the Democratic Party hierarchy? And what can he expect from the billionaire class? They've already announced war, in essence.
- [37:46]
Shama Sawant
Yes, they have declared war against him. And that is why he needs to declare war back at them, not try to hug them to death. And part of what we experienced here was obviously, you know, if you look at the talking points that big business had against our 15Now movement and against the Amazon tax movement, which also you mentioned, which raises hundreds of millions of dollars every year for affordable housing, including a specific chunk of that money reserved for black working class and poor housing in this historically black neighborhood, which I live in, actually, which has been denuded of its black population because of the skyrocketing rents. One of the things that they did to discredit all of these demands was to just have just pound the working class on network TV with all kinds of economic falsehoods like, oh, this is just going to be economic apocalypse. You know, $15 an hour will shut down all businesses, all of that. So I think the first thing we had to do to combat that was relentless political education about how all of this is absolutely false. That actually that. But what we said was two things. One is we said that all of the studies on minimum wage increases have shown and even big minimum wage increases have shown is that there's no. That no business has actually been shut down because of that. Small business shut down because of other reasons. The paramount reason being that that commercial rent is so high that most storefront businesses can't afford in big cities like Seattle and New York City. But we also said that, and if indeed that were true, if indeed they were right, that the system is so fragile that by lifting 100,000 workers in Seattle out of poverty, just lifting them above it's nothing lavish, it's lifting them above absolute dire conditions is going to collapse the system. Then why on earth are we even defending the system in the first place? See, that's how we posed it. And that really helped people understand that. One, that they are completely lying to you. But also secondly, even if they weren't, we still need to fight for better conditions. Because why on earth are we defending a system that can't let us have even a modicum of dignity in our living standards? I think that's part of what they will face. The other thing that will come very likely is the kind of red baiting and identity politics that we experienced here. So a very, very important example of this is when we were fighting for the Amazon Tax. We launched the Tax Amazon movement alongside my inauguration after my 2019 re election. It was really important strategic timing because like I said before, the 2019 election was a complete pushback against Jeff Bezos and Amazon because Amazon specifically, you know, and very openly spent millions of dollars trying to defeat me and also other progressives, but mainly me. And because they knew our office was the driving force of the whole left wing and working class political agenda. And they knew that if I was out, the Democrats wouldn't do crap for the working class. And so in 2020 January when I was inaugurate being inaugurated, I turned my inauguration into the launch of the Tax Amazon movement. And then you remember that was 2020. So a few months later, Covid happened and then the George Floyd rebellion began. At that time, the Democratic Party unleashed this whole group of black, what I would call misleaders, black misleaders to go around at these protests saying you should not support Sharma Saw and you should not support the Amazon tax because that's not a black issue. They tried to disrupt many of the rallies that we were holding in solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement, saying you should be talking about Black issues. And furthermore, you're not black, so you don't get to have this platform. And we refused to accept that gatekeeping. There were many other leaders who were supporting the Tax Amazon movement who immediately balked at that and said, oh, we should not even have our table here at this protest because we're just white allies. We are not, you know, we don't have the right to speak. Only black people have the right to speak. We absolutely refuse to bend to this what, you know, this just corrosiveness of identity politics. And we insisted on looking at things from a class lens. And we said that actually these black misleaders should be utterly ashamed of themselves because by obstructing the tax Amazon movement, they are actually hostile to the interests of black working class and poor people. Because if there's anybody who needs affordable housing the most, it is the black working class. And the Amazon tax has disproportionately benefited the black working class and poor people. So rather than accepting their just destructive gatekeeping, we said, we're going to go directly to black working people at the protests. And it was phenomenal. The support we got for the Amazon tax demand was sky high. The clipboards were practically flying out of our hands with people saying, fuck yeah, I want to tax Amazon. I'm going to sign that. And it's hundreds, thousands of people showing up to our Democratically organized Tax Amazon action conferences. That is what put pressure on the Democratic Party. You know, first they were vicious towards it, and then I suddenly started getting friendly phone calls from these progressive Latina Democrats saying, oh, you know, that thing you were talking about, you know, very interested in that. And then we won. That is what it takes. I think that in terms of how it plays out in New York City, I think it will very much depend on what kind of approach Mamdani takes. I mean, how much they attack his demands will depend on how much he's willing to fight for it. And being willing to fight for it means mobilizing working class people. So I think that will be crucial.
- [44:00]
Chris Hedges
What does this mean in the age of Trump? Trump, of course, immediately went after him. I think you and I for many, many years have argued that a party or a political movement that is focused on social inequality and the betrayal of the working class by the Democratic Party could succeed. Is this the rise of a kind of counterweight to Trumpian authoritarianism and proto fascism or not?
- [44:35]
Shama Sawant
I think the. And as you said, you know, you alluded to our past discussions. We've talked about what it will take to defeat Trumpism and right wing populism. And it's not only Trump, it's Trump, the Trumpism phenomenon. And it will take working class solidarity around class based demands to defeat the ideas of the right wing. And it will take us recognizing where the origin of any traction, any credence to right wing ideas. And that comes from the complete failure of and betrayals by the Democratic Party. But it's not only the Democratic Party. We have to talk about the labor leadership as well, which has betrayed the interests of the working class, obviously their own members, by being tied at the hip to the Democratic Party even in the face of a genocide. That needs to be mentioned as well. I mean, the question is if genocide is not a line you're not willing to cross as a working class leader, then there is no line you're not willing to cross as a working class leader. So I think that point needs to be made. And so, you know, so many of these unions, their leaderships have passed ceasefire resolutions, but those ceasefire resolutions mean little if then the leaderships turn around and support the parties of genocide themselves. I mean, Sean Fain famously went on the DNC floor, Sean Fain being the president of uaw, which is one of the unions that has supported Mamdani to its credit and also has passed a ceasefire resolution. But at the end of the day, how much does that amount to if you're then turning around and still supporting the candidates and the parties of genocide? And I think that it is also revealing what, whom Mamdani holds as his role models. I think, you know, you talked about how AOC is the poster child for careerism. I think that's very important to note because. And Bernie Sanders was not exactly like our. I think he's well intentioned. It's just his political analysis is extremely flawed. And he thinks that now completely capitulating to the Democratic Party and to the genocide and to attacks on workers like the, you know, the Democrats blocking and breaking the railroad workers strike in 2022, which AOC was part of that. That's the best that the working class can get. But regardless, you know, regardless of their individual differences, the truth about AOC and Bernie Sanders is that they, both of them have campaigned, I mean, Bernie Sanders much more relentlessly. But AOC did initially campaign on Medicare for all $15 an hour minimum wage and a Green New Deal. And like I said, I commend Mamdani for being relentless about those demands. But Bernie Sanders has also been relentless about those demands. He still is talking about. I mean, he's less relentless than before because he doesn't want to embarrass the Democrats, which is itself rotten. However, the point is that they both have campaigned on these demands and not a thing, not a thing has been won for the working class. The metric cannot be. Are they talking about those demands? The metric has to be, what have they won in the last five, six years? What have they done? And what has happened to working class agendas in that interim? Bernie Sanders two campaigns were completely destroyed by the Democratic Party. And last year the Democratic Party showed that they would much rather allow somebody who they call a fascist and an existential threat, allow that person to be elected than allow even a shadow of working class agenda to enter their purview. Like, they did not even want Kamala Harish to even lie. I mean, just fucking lie that, okay, I'm going to do something about the genocide. Maybe I'll talk about 15. If she had done any one of a little bit of murmuring towards the working class and she would have tipped the scales. Very likely. They were not even willing to do that. Why? Because they don't want to create expectations among working class people that they will do anything at all for them. Because they want to hold the line. They are the billionaire class representatives, just like the Republicans are, and they don't want to create any such idea that the working class can expect anything from them. So what they want to do is, is they want the working class to be permanently attached to them and keep voting them in, but they want to do it on the basis of not doing anything for the working class. And that is that contradiction, that conundrum is what has led them to this sorry state where they have the lowest approval ratings historically. But at the same time, if we don't provide an alternative to them, then they are, you know, they're probably going to make gains in the midterm elections because people are also angry at Trump and, and Trump has no alternative either. And so for defeating the right wing, we will need a break from the Democratic Party. And that might sound like a contradiction in terms of. But that's precisely what we need because it is the Democratic Party that has given you Donald Trump. The Democratic Party are the best builders of Trumpism. And in order to destroy Trumpism, you need to destroy the Democratic Party. And that comes first with breaking your ties with Democratic Party. And here's what I have to say. Whom Mamdani has listed as his role models is a very telling story to me. Mamdani has said that he is very inspired By I mean, I'm not quoting him. I'm paraphrasing what he said. He's very inspired by Boston Governor Michelle Wu. Michelle Wu ran on housing demands. She also brought them up relentlessly. She talked about rent control relentlessly. What has she done after she got into office? Completely betray working class renters? I mean, just completely. He has also said that former New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio was the best in his, in his Mamdani's lifetime. You know what? Among other attacks on unions and workers, Mayor de Blasio and Governor Andrew Cuomo together in 2018 upheld the Taylor Law of New York, which has a draconian strike ban on public sector unions. According to an article in a DSA aligned publication, Jacobin, this New York strike ban, this is a quote, makes red state anti strike laws look like pieces of fluff. And keep in mind 2018 was the year of the historic public school teacher strikes in red states, starting with West Virginia. The Jacobin article also says the next time a new Republican governor works up the nerve to enforce antistrike laws against public workers, they'll have the satisfaction of piggybacking on those Democratic friends of labor, Cuomo and de Blasio. So, I mean, so he has stated aoc, Bernie Sanders, Michelle Bou and de Blasio all as his inspirations. And they all, they all have a record of selling out working class people. One last thing that he has said, he has also repeatedly cited and effusively praised former New York city mayor Fiorello LaGuardia who was a Republican mayor who was supported at the time in 1941, you know, during the war he was running for re election and he was supported by the rotten Stalinists. And they, you know, they supported him against Trotskyist James Cannon. You know, he was a Trotskyist at the time who ran on a pro worker anti war platform. And you know, one of the things LaGuardia did was brutally go after striking transport workers, you know, basically telling them that the country is at war so municipal workers don't have the right to go on strike. So I mean, you know, your viewers can reach their own conclusions about what it means when somebody ties themselves so closely to a whole string of people who have a track record of having sold out workers.
- [52:52]
Chris Hedges
Just close by. Talking about your own campaign. Where are you? You know, what are you up against? You mentioned at the beginning of the interview a little bit about who you're running against.
- [53:04]
Shama Sawant
Yes, we're running for US Congress from the Washington state's 9th congressional district, which includes a part of Seattle and also many other neighboring cities where there are lots of rich people, there's lots of billionaires, but there's also lots of working class people, lots of refugees. It's a majority minority district. The district has a lot of people who have personally faced losses, family losses in Gaza through the genocide. There are many East African and East Asian and South Asian working class people who live here, many of whom are struggling to get by. And we are running against Adam Smith, who has been in Congress for nearly 30 years. And he, you know, he, as I said before, he has repeatedly voted to send tens of billions of dollars of funding to the Israeli military throughout the genocide. That's not the first time he has voted to send money to Israel over and over during his nearly 30 year career. But especially notable is that he has repeatedly voted to fund the genocide. And he is, not surprisingly, he is a favorite of the military contractors. You know, we know that both Democratic and Republican parties are warmongering parties. They have been purveyors of endless brutal wars throughout their history. And Adam Smith is one of the generals among the war hawks. He is not a foot soldier. He has never met a war that he didn't like. He has demonized anti genocide activists as totalitarian, as extremists, as left wing fascists. He has called for them to be arrested. He also holds the shameful distinction of being one of only five sitting Democratic Congress members who voted for the Iraq war. As I said, in 2002, he supported the wars in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen and the current bloody interimperialist proxy war in Ukraine. He has been bankrolled for three decades by weapons industry and profiteers such as Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics and Palantir, as I mentioned earlier. And he's a darling of AIPAC and the Zionist lobby. As I said, AIPAC was his biggest funder last year. And he, you know, just to contrast between our campaign and him in the summer of 2014, that was my second year on the city council. I used my city council position not only to attend protests against Israel's indiscriminate bombardment of Gaza at the time, but also to draft a public letter calling for an end to all US military aid to Israel and the brutal settlements in Palestinian territories and the occupation during that same time that I was doing that, Adam Smith was enthusiastically backing Israel's Iron Dome system, which as we know is one of the key components in enabling the Israeli state slaughter apparatus against the Palestinian people. And in the Final days of my decade in City hall in October and November of 2023. I was fighting to win. And we did win, despite the opposition of the Democrats, the second at the time, and the strongest City council resolution calling for a ceasefire and an end to all U.S. military aid to ISRA. At that same moment, Smith was part of Biden's cabal that was monstrously insisting on over $100 billion of military funding for not just Israel, but also for Ukraine, instead of funding the needs of the cost of living crisis here faced by working people here. And he's also just one of the most thoroughly corporate, pro corporate politicians. And in fact, you know this, our race against Adam Smith goes to. Your other question as well is what will it take to defeat the right wing? It will take destroying the Democratic Party. And that begins also, as I said, with defeating Congress members like Adam Smith. Because his, you know, during the, during the George W. Bush presidency, when the nation was of course going rightward because of the rightward push by the Bush presidency, Smith, instead of advising that the Democrats should be more pro working class, less pro war, his advice to Democrats was to reduce the contrast between themselves and the Republicans. And at that time, he said the Democratic Party should consider privatizing Medicare. So it's no surprise there that notorious corporations like United Healthcare, which ferociously oppose Medicare for all, have also donated to Smith's campaign. He also voted in favor of the bailout of big banks in 2008, while ordinary people were left to rotate. So, you know, this is his track record. We have our track record from the city council, from the decade on, the city Council having won historic victories for the working class. This congressional campaign, just like all of our election campaigns, is not in service of my personal political career. It is a vehicle to build movements. And the movements we are specifically focusing on through our congressional campaign is to end the genocide and the US military funding and the occupation. And we are also calling for stopping all the deportations and shutting down the detention centers. And we are also fighting for free health care for all, funded by taxing the rich and for rent control nationally. In fact, we are pairing the congressional campaign with a citywide Seattle, citywide ballot initiative, campaign for free health care for all, funded by increasing the Amazon tax that we've already won, increasing it to $5 billion. So this is a campaign for all working people who want to win big victories for ourselves, send a stinging message to the ruling class, to the Zionist lobby. So nationally, whoever is listening, whoever is watching this, you need to get involved in this campaign. We actually, you know, something exciting is that we had a target of raising 100,000 working class donations within the first month of our campaign. We smashed that target in the first three weeks and within the first month of our campaign we have more than 1,000 separate donors. That is more donors than Adam Smith had last year in his entire election. He needs fewer donors because he has all this war mongering and pro billionaire pact that are funding his campaigns. We are a working class campaign and as I've done every single year of my city council office, if I am elected to Congress, I will take home only the average workers wage and donate the rest after taxes to building strike actions for the for the union movement and for building the anti war movement.
- [60:06]
Chris Hedges
Great. Thank you Shama. And I want to thank Diego, Victor, Sophia, Thomas and Max who produced the show. You can find me at chrishedges.substack.com.
- [60:30]
Shama Sawant
Sa.