Building Bridges: The Relationship Between Church Techs and Worship Leaders, Building Relational Equity

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The Church Production Podcast

Episode: Building Bridges: The Relationship Between Church Techs and Worship Leaders, Building Relational Equity

Release Date: May 28, 2025
Host: Joseph Cottle (A)
Guest: Zach Dinsmore, Worship Pastor at Life Mission Church (B)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the crucial yet often complex relationship between church tech teams (AVL: Audio, Video, Lighting) and worship leaders. Host Joseph Cottle and guest Zach Dinsmore—worship pastor, AVL department overseer, and longtime friend of Joseph—share honest reflections and practical wisdom from their years working together. They discuss how shared vision, humility, open communication, and “relational equity” foster a healthy, collaborative team culture. The episode is packed with real stories, leadership lessons, and actionable advice for tech and worship teams seeking effective partnership in ministry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Zach's Path to Worship and Tech Leadership

• Background: Zach shares his journey, from volunteering at a Colorado church plant to entering full-time ministry at Life Mission Church in Kansas City.
  • Quote:
    “I was not qualified for the position when I had it, other than being a great worship leader. Like, I had never led a department. I'd never touched a budget. ...But I've had great leadership that's helped me—mostly, I feel like, just believed in me.” (03:49)
• Role Evolution: From worship leader to overseeing Worship, AVL, and Creative/Communications at three campuses.
• Early Ministry: Learned multiple roles, from cleaning carpets to working front desks, while leading worship as a teenager. (04:35–06:05)

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2. The Importance of Shared Vision

[08:16–10:10]

• Healthy Collaboration Stems from Shared Vision: Problems emerge when worship and production leaders have fundamentally different visions for the worship experience.
  • Notable Quote:
    “If the vision’s just not the same...what we wanted Sunday mornings and events to look like...I think the reason that worked is because I let it die. Like, there was just a part of me that was like, it’s not worth the relational tension.” (09:06)
• Vision as a Deciding Principle: The team at Life Mission operates with the guideline: Is it simple? Beautiful? Not distracting? If not, it doesn’t belong.
  • Quote:
    "If it checks two of the three boxes, but it's distracting—it's probably not going to make the cut." (15:03)

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3. Relational Equity Over Product

[10:10–14:00]

• Prioritizing Relationship and Submission: Zach emphasizes valuing relationships and submission in the organizational structure, rather than making every creative difference a hill to die on.
  • Quote:
    "The end all for me is we want Holy Spirit to be present in our services...You can have all that regardless of what it looks like from an exterior perspective." (12:10)
• Mutual Submission: Both tech and worship leaders submit to each other’s expertise and roles, which fosters unity.
  • “Healthy submission makes relationships, especially with a hierarchy, work—when there is health involved, not when there’s unhealth involved.” (18:36)

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4. Navigating Hierarchy and Collaboration

[16:00–19:30]

• Role Clarification & Respect: In cases where tech answers to worship or vice versa, it’s critical to submit to organizational structure without grumbling or creating division.
  • Production Under Worship: Tech directors should align with the worship leader’s vision if they’re in their reporting line.
  • Parallel Departments: If not in direct oversight, both parties need to respect each other's domains.
• Collaborative Culture: The team operates with trust and the space to experiment—they’re not micromanaged, and mistakes are handled with grace.

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5. Real-World Examples: The LED Wall & Visual Philosophy

[20:19–22:53]

• Experimenting with Visuals: The team’s shared vision (simple, beautiful, not distracting) guides decisions around stage visuals.
• Adapting to Feedback: When the congregation and leaders prefer certain backgrounds (nature scenes), the team adapts without pride or defensiveness.
  • Light-hearted Moment:
    “Clint was just like, that looks like blood.” (When a red lava lamp animation was shown during a song about the blood of Jesus.) (22:18)

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6. Keys to Personal and Professional Partnership

[23:00–28:40]

• Frequent, Honest Conversation: The strength of Joseph and Zach’s partnership comes from regular, transparent, sometimes tough discussions. Issues are addressed quickly to prevent resentment.
  • “We’ve never shied away from hard conversations. ...We pretty much address stuff right out the gate if we’re feeling tension.” (24:39)
• Goodwill & Assumptions of Positive Intent:
  • “I know that Zach’s always coming from a good place... We have each other's back. There’s no competition here.” (27:14)
• Mutual Support in High-Pressure Roles: Both juggle young families, demanding church events, and side projects, helping each other keep perspective.

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7. Age, Authority & Avoiding Insecurity

[27:40–30:52]

• Potential Challenges: Addressing that Joseph is older and has more ministry experience, yet reports to Zach.
• Keys to Success:
  • Zach credits humility from older team members and staying secure in his “seat” as leader.
  • Decisions are made collaboratively, honoring everyone’s experience.
• Quote:
  “I was put in this seat, so I’m going to drive the car. ...It’s rare I ever make a decision alone in a healthy way.” (29:15)

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8. Leadership Practices: Protecting and Celebrating the Team

[31:33–33:52]

• Taking Responsibility: Zach practices ownership—taking the heat in leadership meetings for team mistakes and celebrating wins on their behalf.
• Sustainability: Joseph intentionally limits volunteer demands and advocates for his team’s well-being and rest—even pushing back on event requests when needed.

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9. Building Relational Equity

[35:07–37:42]

• Fighting for Your People: Leaders must advocate for team members behind closed doors, building trust and “relational equity” with higher-ups.
  • Quote:
    “There were multiple times where...things were brought into question...and for me to be able to go, ‘Hey, I need you guys to trust me, because I have relational equity with this person and you just, quite frankly, do not.’” (35:53)

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10. Advice to Worship and Tech Leaders

[37:52–39:29]

• Stay Grounded in Purpose, Not Comparison: Avoid getting caught up in trends, live streams, and aesthetics for their own sake.
  • Quote:
    “Don’t get caught up in how stuff looks...get to the heart of what you’re trying to do with the Lord, with your community...and actually just accomplish that.” (37:52)
• Prioritize Team Health and Longevity: Fight for a healthy, happy, and missionally-aligned team. This stewardship matters far more than production “success” by worldly standards.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “I was not qualified for the position...other than being a great worship leader.” (03:49) — Zach
• “If the vision’s just not the same...I let it die. It’s not worth the relational tension.” (09:06) — Zach
• “We want Holy Spirit to be present in our services. ...You can have all that regardless of what it looks like from an exterior perspective.” (12:10) — Zach
• “Healthy submission makes relationships, especially with a hierarchy, work.” (18:36) — Zach
• “Clint was just like, that looks like blood.” (22:18) — Joseph, on using a red ‘lava lamp’ visual during a song about the blood of Jesus
• “We’ve never shied away from hard conversations...we pretty much address stuff right out the gate.” (24:39) — Zach
• “There’s no competition here.” (27:14) — Joseph
• “I was put in this seat, so I’m going to drive the car.” (29:15) — Zach
• “You need to fight for your people behind closed doors.” (35:53) — Zach
• “Don’t get caught up in how stuff looks...get to the heart of what you’re trying to do with the Lord, with your community...and actually just accomplish that.” (37:52) — Zach

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Practical Takeaways

• Shared vision and humility are foundational for tech/worship partnership.
• Prioritize relational health—relationship should always come before the “product.”
• Frequent honest communication helps prevent small issues from festering.
• Leaders should own their teams’ mistakes publicly and give credit for successes.
• Advocate for your team’s sustainable workload, especially in high-demand church roles.
• Don’t chase trends—cultivate authenticity and servant-heartedness as your main cultural values.

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Summary Reflection

This episode offers deep, practical wisdom for anyone looking to build a flourishing partnership between worship and production teams in a church setting. By modeling humility, servant leadership, respect for organizational structure, and above all, cherishing relationships, the Life Mission Church team demonstrates how technical excellence and spiritual vitality can walk hand in hand.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign. You're listening to the church Production podcast from ChurchProduction.com. i'm your host, Joseph Cottle, and today we're with Zach Dinsmore. Zach is the worship pastor here at Life Mission Church, but he's also one of my best friends, and that's what we're going to talk about because he's also my boss, which can be tricky to navigate sometimes. It's a great conversation about how Zach and I have found a sweet spot over the years with lots of wisdom from a veteran church leader and who has a lot of ministry years ahead of him still. Let's dive in with Zach. Zach, welcome to the podcast.

[B]

Excited to be here.

[A]

Are you, though? Yeah.

[B]

I've got coffee. The couch is comfortable.

[A]

The kids aren't bothering.

[B]

The kids aren't tearing it up. So. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All things considered, I'm excited to talk about something that has nothing to do with the work I actually need to be doing right now.

[A]

Yeah, you're welcome.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

It's a great little distraction, though, technically. Pastor Jamie, we're on our lunch break.

[B]

Yeah, we are on our lunch break. We are clocked out, as it were.

[A]

So just for some context, tell our listeners a little bit about how you got to where you're at.

[B]

Great. Yeah. So the worship pastor at Life Mission Church, been in.

[A]

Well, you're more than that.

[B]

Yeah. So, worship pastor, what that encompasses is I run our worship department, which oversees worship at all three of our campuses. I oversee our AVL department, which same amount of campuses, and then our communications and creative department. So overseeing three departments. It's about, what, 10, 11 staff?

[A]

Something like that. Yeah.

[B]

And have been in this role for the last eight and a half years. Been at Life Mission for nine and was kind of thrown into it overnight, almost quite literally. So I joined staff at Life Mission in May of 2016, led worship part time for one of our campuses, and then was just working, cleaning carpets professionally for other sources of income. And then about six months in, me and the other worship leaders got sat down in a room. And there had been a transition with the. With the current worship pastor. And so they asked if I would come lead worship at the main campus for that weekend. And then I just never went back to the other campus. I mean, that's literally how it went. So we moved. We moved another guy into the campus that I was at, and I started leading at the main campus. And that was October of 16. And then I believe in the next week or two, they asked if I would step in as interim, just Kind of help things maintain. So I did that until January, and then I believe it was January 17th that they asked if I would take the worship director role, which meant, at that time, just overseeing worship. So I was not overseeing avl. We worked in the same office that we do now, the same suite, worshiping avl. But I was not over avl. I was just working in conjunction with them. And the role has evolved since then into encompassing the AVL department as far as oversight, and then the communications department as far as oversight. And to be truthful, I was not qualified for the position when I had it, other than being a great worship leader. Like, I had never led a department. I'd never touched a budget. We literally made the transition, and we were in the middle of budget season. It was like, well, what do you want a budget for next year? I was like, drumsticks, like, guitar strings and snacks. Like, I don't know. And so. But I've had great leadership that's helped me. Um, mostly, I feel like, just believed in me and just helped me during. When stuff got sticky and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's like, the short synopsis.

[A]

Yeah. And some extra background before here. You helped plant a church.

[B]

Yeah. In Colorado. So. Helped plant a church in Colorado. So I was out there for a year and a half in steamboat springs from 2014 to 2016.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was just volunteer. So that was like, I was leading worship on the weekends, and I was busing tables at two restaurants for a season. I did professional carpet cleaning for a while, and then I worked behind the desk of a vacation rental company. And it was actually. It was actually funny because I worked behind the desk at vacation rental company. And in that area in Steamboat, they'll do, like, work programs for different people from different countries. Yeah. So somehow basically the entire front desk was from Jamaica. And then it was me. It's just you, and it's just me. And so it was. It was five, six white Zach, working with these incredible Jamaicans. And it was a party every. Every day at work was a lot of fun. One of them claimed to be friends with Usain Bolt. I don't know how valid that was. But anyways, it was. Yeah, it was a fun experience. And then, yeah, I grew up in church and living in Kansas City. We moved here for ministry. And so I was leading worship as a teenager, all through high school, growing up, and it was really just all I did. Like, I didn't do sports or anything. I was just involved on worship teams, like, from 13 years old all the way to 18. And then the Lord really just opened doors, moved to Colorado and moved back in 2016, took a job at life Mission. And this is now the longest I've been anywhere.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. You just have a ton of experience and I respect you so much for that because you just turned 30, right?

[B]

31.

[A]

31, yeah. So that's just a ton of real time in ministry, basically. I mean, I know out steamboat you weren't full time, but when you're starting a church plant, it is full time, even though it isn't. And then you were actually really a full time ministry before that too. Yeah.

[B]

Totally different capacity. Yeah.

[A]

And so I don't think. I think most senior pastors, lead pastors would be jealous of all that ministry experience that you have before you turn

[B]

31 in a very specific department.

[A]

I know. And from a church plant, I mean, by the numbers here, we're a megachurch. And then at a prayer ministry before that. It's impressive, man. Thanks. What we're going to dive into is the relationship between the worship pastor, worship director, and the production director. Here we call it AVL director. We have a particular relationship that functions really well, which is why I wanted to talk about it because I have seen it not function so well, as have you, where you're my boss. Yep. You're also my best friend, you know, and our families are close.

[B]

But I pay you to be best friends.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we just, we don't talk about that. That's a joke. He thinks I'm his best friend and that, I don't know, I feel like we wear those hats really well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's really healthy. And that's not super common. It can go sideways. So I wanted us to pull that apart. But even like, you know, our kids are buds as they, you know, tried to hijack our van as the three

[B]

year olds just like to tear up the world together. Evening.

[A]

So, yeah. What do you think, what do you think works about this arrangement, this relationship

[B]

that we have, like specifically us or more broad strokes, what makes it work?

[A]

Yeah, let's start with the broad strokes. Yeah.

[B]

So it's actually, I've been a part of at this church. I've had both. So like I've had a working relationship, ours, which works very well and it thrives. And then I've had a working relationship that didn't. It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't good. Like it wasn't great by any means. It was like. It just kind of. We just kind of limped along together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I Think. I think holistically the biggest thing is just overall vision.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As far as, like, if we're going broad strokes, like it's, it's, it's not like a secret, you know what I mean? But it's like if the vision's just not the same.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of like, what? Especially. Especially if. Well, no, I'd say. I was gonna say especially if it's a. Like I'm the worship pastor and I oversee your department and you're the director. So like, you work for me. But even in a non oversight type of relationship, like before, our previous AVL director, who in his own right did a phenomenal job with what he was given, but we had two completely differing visions for what we wanted Sunday mornings and events to look like. But because I didn't have a say in it, I just kind of. I think the reason that worked is because I let it die. Like, there was just a part of me that was like, it's not worth the relational tension. And so like, I'm just gonna turn my brain off to the fact that I think it's way overdone and I don't like the bogo patterns that are happening on the stage or the lights or the colors and, you know, and he just came from a different culture and he did what he does really well.

[A]

Yeah, he did a great job.

[B]

He did a great job. It's just not what my preference was. So I struggled with it.

[A]

Well, let's pause there because you said something huge that to you it wasn't worth the relational tension. Totally. That's something that makes your leadership so particular but also so healthy, is that you have your priorities straight where for you, the product isn't the thing. So talk to us a little bit about that.

[B]

So, yeah, let's back up to that. So me and this, our AVL director at the time, we were in the same office, meaning the same suites. We have office suites. And then we. So we were working close together and we, we, you know, worked hand in hand on all of our services and stuff, but I really didn't have a say in how production looked. It wasn't like he was asking me, yeah, what do I think? It wasn't like leadership was asking me, what do I think? And so he was just running with it based on what he had a desire to do. And he was good at pitching vision. And so for me, I hated how it looked. I just thought it was. It's just not my vibe. And again, I've spoken that he's good at It. And for his culture, it works really well. But I just did not like the look of it. But truthfully, I just didn't care enough. And I think because my vision for production is so minimal anyways, that I was, like, on a grand scale. The reason my vision is so minimal is not because I don't care about it, but it's because I don't deeply care about it. In a sense that, like, moves me to action in, like, an extreme way. And so for me, I was like, listen, I'm not his boss. People are complaining to me about how things look, but, like, it's not my department. And I think genuinely in that relationship, we were able to have good relationship even. And he ended up taking a role at a. A different church that suits him so much better. And even through all of that transition, we remained friends. You know what I mean? And it was because I just didn't. And I think same can be said for him. Like, we. I kind of stayed out of his world a little bit and was just like, listen, this is. This is not the end all, like, the end all for me is we want Holy Spirit to be present in our services. We want to minister to people. We want authenticity. And you can have all that regardless of what it looks like from an exterior perspective. And I think that often the motive can get judged based on what people are seeing, like, visually. Yeah. Like, they can see the lights and they can see the stuff and be like, oh, they must not be authentic or they must not be, you know. You know, they're all about the production. And that couldn't be further from the truth. Specifically in that time where it was like our worship team, you know, we were deeply pursuing, like, engaging with the Lord on the platform and ministering to our congregation at the same time. Our AVL tech was in his own pursuit of the Lord doing his production method out of the same heart. It just looked totally different than what I wanted to look like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I just didn't. I just think it came down to, like, I didn't care enough about how it looked to make it a big deal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was just like, I'm gonna let him run his race. They hired him. They didn't hire me for that. And it's easier relationally and just across the board for me to just not touch it and just be like, you know what the Lord's going to do, he's going to do. And it worked like, we had good relationship.

[A]

Well, and that's such a kingdom principle, too, that the relationship is worth more than the product, right?

[B]

Totally. And.

[A]

And I think it's really hard, especially for younger leaders to not believe so much in their vision that they have to have their way. And that I think goes all the way up and down, all the way up to. If you're a young lead pastor that I'm sure is not listening to this podcast. But down to even just not just, but to an AVL tech, maybe that's sort of at the bottom of the org chart, being willing to submit to one another as unto the Lord.

[B]

Right. 100%.

[A]

That principle works in the org chart too.

[B]

Yes, it does.

[A]

That's not just a relational, outside of work principle. It's here too. So then back to the broad strokes you're talking about. One of the things that clicks here is our vision, right. In what do you. We haven't really, I guess, talked about it, but we just kind of function in it. What would you define our shared vision?

[B]

Yeah, I think our collective shared vision is to create an environment that's simple and beautiful and it's not distracting. And when that's the vision, it makes it really easy to make decisions because it's like, are we gonna do this or not do this? Well, is it simple? Okay, maybe it is simple. Okay. Is it beautiful? Yeah, it's beautiful. Is it distracting? Yes, it's distracting.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We're probably not gonna do it even if it checks two of the three boxes, but I think that's just what works. We got lucky in the sense that, like, even when you transition into this role, it was as interim and then it ended up working. Right? Cause, like, it got dumped on me and then I was. It was in the middle of COVID avl. Like, it was in the middle of COVID Our AVL director had left and I got handed AVL as we were also live streaming prayer. Every worship and prayer, every single night,

[A]

recording Sunday services for broadcasts.

[B]

Yeah. And I had a bit of a breakdown. And so I called you and basically told you, this is what you're gonna do.

[A]

Yeah. You're like, I need you to do this.

[B]

I need you to do this.

[A]

And then it was like, right after lockdown, we were in my garage, and you're like, so, do you wanna do this?

[B]

You wanna keep doing this? But it just worked. You thrived in the role. You had done my job at a church for years, the worship pastor position. And this just worked out really well. We got lucky in a lot of ways. But I feel like on a principle standpoint, what works is that we have the same vision for what we want things to look like. And I think when there is differing vision, it's just difficult. What I will say is in our role, where there's I'm your oversight, I'm your boss, and I know for many production directors, AVL directors, that's a similar thing. Or like the worship pastors, their oversight, I would definitely say if there is differing vision, being aware of that's good. And I think even having robust conversations surrounding that are good. But at the end of the day, if you want there to be unity, if you're coming under submission to the leadership of the worship pastor, it's going, okay, I'm going to serve your vision even if it's not what I want to be doing. But I'm also not going to gripe about it to my team and I'm not going to make cause this divisive thing. Now I would equally say to worship pastors, if you're in a working relationship like I was previously, where you're not the oversight of the avl, they are the oversight of their department. And so in my humble opinion, worship pastors that don't have oversight to the production, like you need to leave it alone in the sense that if there's differing vision from you and the AVL director and you're not their oversight, then you in the same spirit need to go, well, that's not my department and they're the one that were hired to do, do this job. And so I'm going to submit to their vision for production because they're sitting in the seat, you know, and, and, and again, not to gripe about it to your worship team or to, you know, and there's a place to state your opinion, but it's not to, it's not to cause any type of division. And so I think similar vision is really helpful. Similar, same vision. And then truthfully, it's just submission, which is a word nobody likes to talk about, but it's true. And I think healthy submission makes relationships, especially with a hierarchy work when there's health. When there's health involved, not when there's unhealth involved. Yeah, well.

[A]

Cause it goes both ways.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, like. The kingdom of Jesus is an upside down kingdom anyway. And so there's, it is the bottom of the org chart submitting up, but it's also the top of the org chart submitting down. Yeah.

[B]

Which I feel like we do pretty well, I think.

[A]

Yeah. And I think all of our leadership does really well. I can think of many Times in service planning, meeting or just meetings with Clint where he's made his opinion known. But he's also like, he admits it, he preaches, and that's what he does really well. And so he'll submit to you and me and say, hey, you guys are actually experts here, so just whatever works for you guys. Right. And that's so refreshing, so helpful because

[B]

we're not being micromanaged.

[A]

Yeah. And there's not as much pressure. There are in other situations where the lead pastor has to have a certain way, a certain way and can kind of turn into a bricks without straw situation, which is tough.

[B]

And then I think in that culture, because this is how ours kind of works, is we won't know something's wrong until we do it and then we hear about it. But because we're given so much permission, we just understand that that's where things are going to get fleshed out. We'll try something that we want to do because we think it's either it fits within our vision. And then our lead pastors, Clinton, Mary, will come and be like, hey, you know, we really preferred this. We really liked this. And in those cases, we're like, great. Yeah, we have no problem shifting gears. But oftentimes for them, they have to see it before they can know what they even prefer. So, like, case in point, when we got our LED wall behind our, like,

[A]

stage, I think we're thinking of the same instance. We are.

[B]

Like, we would do all nature backgrounds, right. Cause that's what Bethel was doing. We loved it. We thought it looked pretty. And we have a ton of like, kind of like almost. I wouldn't say a ton. We have a good amount of like good old boy culture in the sense that it's like we have those people in our congregation that love hunting and

[A]

nature and like, yeah, we pull from outside of the city. It's not just suburbanites that come because we're right on the edge. There's a cattle farm, a working cattle farm, literally right across the road from the church.

[B]

Right. And so, like, we have a whole culture of people that love the outdoors. So to like see even just wheat fields for them is like, this is beautiful. And so we had done that for a few years. I feel like we did it for a while.

[A]

Yeah, at least a year.

[B]

And then we transitioned to doing more abstract. But again, in the simple, beautiful type of non distracting vision. And it kind of just like it's not something we even focus on as much though. So it like, yeah, graphics would just get dropped in that were kind of like, is that. Well, we'll try it. We'll see how it goes. And then very recently, our lead pastors had a conversation. Conversation with me where they lovingly were like, can we just go back to doing nature scenes? Yeah. And honestly, me and you were kind of like, yeah, we're ready to go back anyways. And for us, honestly, after the change back and forth, it's probably like, we're probably just gonna land here for the foreseeable future.

[A]

Well, and I was thinking specifically what time we used this, like, lava lamp.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

It was, like, super slow mo. And so it wasn't. I don't think it was too obtrusive, you know, And I always make sure that anything we have on the wall isn't moving too fast. One, cause I don't want people to get sick. And two, it's just not our vibe. We're, like, very un Planet shakers here, I think. And no offense to them, what they do is great, but it's just not what we do. But this lava lamp thing was up, and Clint was just like, that looks like blood.

[B]

Well, I think we're singing about the blood.

[A]

I know.

[B]

We were singing a song about the blood of Jesus. And then we have this red lava lamp thing going on behind us. And, yeah, he was like. He's like, let's not do that again. And kind of how it works with us is we just know, like, if Clint says something about it, like, either positively or negatively, that's your directive. Yeah.

[A]

It's like, okay.

[B]

Like, it's either you're gonna continue doing that or you're not gonna continue.

[A]

But we have. We have the leeway to. To try something. And the longer we've all worked together, too. I know, I know. Immediately, like, that graphic's too far. I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, this one's on the line.

[B]

Yeah. We can ride it. See what happens.

[A]

We'll throw it in the third song, see if we notice it.

[B]

100%.

[A]

Yeah. So now to kind of like, let's focus in a little bit. What really works between us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Specifically, besides those broad strokes.

[B]

Well, again, I think we got lucky. I think you and I naturally get along really well. Oh, yeah.

[A]

We were buds.

[B]

We were buds immediately. But we've also had not just one, like, numerous tearful, long, hard conversations where we're working through. We're talking through our working relationship. We're talking through finances. We're talking through, like, all of, like, pretty much all the things you can talk through, like, me and Joseph have had intense conversations about where we both came to the table in a lot of humility, but really honestly of just going like, and having to be honest about, like, all right, like, this is the hat I'm wearing right now. You know what I mean? And us being able to say things in those contexts with a mutual understanding of something that, like, is so valuable in our relationship that just not every relationship is gonna have is. You've done my job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, you've done my job for, what was it, nine years?

[A]

No, let's see. Formerly it was like seven. And I was, you know, either volunteering a lot or just on staff for 10.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, you've done my job. You know, the ins and outs of the things that worship pastors deal with outside of the service.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Aspect of the job. So there's a ton of grace for that. But I think we also are just able to like, shoot really straight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And work that out, like through conversation and land in a place and go like, okay, like, we're moving forward from this place. We've worked stuff out. Yeah. So we've never shied away from hard conversations. I also feel like we've never let stuff fester. Like, we pretty much address stuff right out the gate, like if we're feeling tension. But like, we're to the point where it's like I walk in the office and I'm having a bad day and like, you know. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so you, you know, or I know where it's like, you know, you're having a rough day or there's something wrong. Yeah. And so we talk about stuff. Frequent. We. And often it's like short conversations too. I feel like we address stuff.

[A]

Yeah. We're both like, you know, we're. We're doing. We're doing a lot right now, I think. I think for both of us, we're just kind of. We're in the trenches of, you know, young parenthood and marriage and at an events driven megachurch. Yeah. With, you know, and you're doing, I mean, really, the, you know, we're releasing music, which is your job, but almost a side hustle in a way.

[B]

Yeah. Within the.

[A]

Within your thing. And I've got two side hustles working this podcast included. So what we are able to just have those quick check ins and being like, you know, what are you doing?

[B]

Right. And so I think holistically we've stayed very grounded. I think maybe there's been seasons where we haven't been as grounded in our, like, friendship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then, holistically, we stay very grounded in our friendship, and then that allows for. I think that allows for there to be, like, even in the moment, like, whether we're literally in rehearsal, getting ready for a service for me to communicate something pretty straightforward that somebody might be like, whoa, is Zach, like, mad at Joseph? But really, it's just us going, this is game time. And I could be like, hey, I don't like that graphic. Can we switch that? Can we change this? And you're like, yeah, let's do it. You know what I mean? And it gives the grace for, like, Even if it rubs you the wrong way, we'll talk about it later. But, like, let's be a team right now.

[A]

Well, there's so much goodwill. And my therapist had an actual term for that. I remember it was. But where. The utmost highest regard for each other, I think he called it. And that's where, like, I know that Zach's always coming from a good place. Yeah. And, you know, I'm always coming from a good place. Right. We're looking out for each other. We have each other's back. There's no competition here.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know, and so that helps when it comes time to maybe not, you know, be as kind as the moment requires, I guess, you know, where it's like, we gotta communicate quickly.

[B]

We don't have to communicate in grace, in moments.

[A]

Yeah. If we have the bark, it's okay. Like, we get the bark and it's fine.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And some of that's been years, but I feel like we had that pretty quick, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And some of that comes in just to kind of further complicate. What could complicate the relationship more is I'm older than you.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

I'm approaching 40. You just crossed 30. When I came here, I think I had more time.

[B]

You did. You were longer tenured. Yeah, I actually. You and Erin, our creative director.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Both did my job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, them. Him and Emily did it about the same amount of time, but he's older than me, so, like, I have two guys leading departments for me that are older than me and that have done my job. Yeah.

[A]

I have more kids.

[B]

More kids.

[A]

You know, so there could be a giant chip on my shoulder and there could be insecurity on your part.

[B]

Totally. How do you.

[A]

How do you walk through that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I know. What? I. I just. I just eschew that. I'm just like, whatever. That's dumb.

[B]

I'm not gonna do that, that's a great question. I think again, as I'm like, as you're asking questions and I'm thinking about our situation, like I think of Aaron as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think you and Aaron are both just so stinking humble that it like I haven't, I don't know that I've ever felt insecure about like, does Joseph think I'm making the right call as the worship pastor because he's done this job before? Does Aaron think I'm making the right call? Like, there's been a ton of humility on both of your parts. And truthfully, like, I think Aaron could do my job and I could work for Aaron. Like he's, you know what I mean? Like he's that quality level of guy in the sense of. And he's like a music major. You know what I mean?

[A]

Like he's this, he's smarter than both of us.

[B]

He's so smart. But I think this comes down to like identity in the Lord. And even just like I was put in a seat and so. Yeah. Even just me trusting my leadership. Like I was put in this seat and not in like an a hole kind of a way, but like I was put in the seat. So I'm going to drive the car. Yeah. And, and, and I think what was. Has been helpful is that I know I can always come in and I have just ask your opinion on things. Like, hey, what do you think about this? Like, is this a good idea? And I think I've always treated our department that way. Like it's rare I ever make a decision. Yeah.

[A]

It's very collaborative alone in a healthy way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not like in an insecure way where it's like you don't. I know you have a vision and you want to do a thing and you want to do it a certain way, but you're also willing to hear others opinions on that. And then you let that color it and it ends up being, you know, the end result ends up being really beautiful.

[B]

Yeah. So I think collaborative effort has definitely helped. You guys were so humble that it made it easy for me not to feel insecure. There was never this like talking down of like, you know, you'll, you know what I mean? And I think because you were able to just let that go and not be insecure about.

[A]

Yeah. Well, and you to your credit too, you honor that in us. You honor like the experience and that's really helpful. Yeah. That you come with that humility and willing to hear from that experience which allows us to Help you.

[B]

Yep. It's very helpful.

[A]

And that's gonna take you very, very far for years to come to, FYI. And there's also. I know from my end, I don't want your child.

[B]

Maybe that's part of you guys have both done it.

[A]

I don't wanna do that if, God forbid, something happen tomorrow. And Jamie was like, hey, do you want to do this hard pass.

[B]

And depending on who's sitting there, I won't even do this job.

[A]

It's like, actually, you might need to find another guy for this role as well. Once again, Jamie, this. We're on our lunch break. None of that was serious.

[B]

I think another thing that I feel like I've practiced really well is I'm in leadership meetings that you and Aaron are not right. And when stuff gets brought up in a service, this went wrong or this didn't go off right, or whatever, I'm like the quickest person to throw myself under the bus out of, like, I just am. And I've just made it a practice of, like, I've made it really easy to not. I've made it impossible of myself to throw my team under the bus as far as, like, even if it is specifically AVL related, how I even view it is like, well, that falls on me ultimately. You know what I mean? And so for me to just throw myself under the bus and take the heat for it, and then at the same time celebrating the wins of the creative and the AVL department within those leadership meetings of basically. And it sounds like I'm tooting my own horn. It's really just a good leadership principle where it's like, I celebrate the accomplishments of my team really well, and then I take the heat for stuff that goes wrong.

[A]

Well, yeah. I've never had a, like a cross conversation about AVL with Clint. And I know that's part of it is that. And not that he's a cross guy. I'm just saying that, like, he's never come to me personally unless it's like, you know, actually during a service and we have like a text thread. Yeah, yeah. You know, where he'll throw up. Hey, can we make sure, you know, because he'll catch things. But it's all. It's really all still. It's all in the spirit of all of us having each other's back.

[B]

Yes. 100%. Which is we're on the same team,

[A]

which is so helpful.

[B]

We're fighting for one another, you know, and.

[A]

And that's. And that's for real, you know, Zach or you and Pastor Jamie, Pastor Clint, even Pastor Mary. You know, like I said, we all can. We'll all communicate with each other on Sunday morning from time to time. And it's all unto creating that place for people to connect with the Lord without distractions. And we all just know that. And so there's no offense, that being said, not to toot my own horn and I know you gotta dip out here in a minute, but there's not a lot of hills that I die on.

[B]

No, there's really not. I mean I don't.

[A]

Because.

[B]

No, that would even found one other than maybe your team, like the health of your team. Oh yeah. I'll die on that. Yeah.

[A]

And. And that. And that is part of like. Because we're an events driven.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Church. I mean we actually have an event coming up this weekend where I just had to be straight up. I was like, I don't. I can't staff this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I've got family coming into town.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kaden has been, you know, who's our production tech. Our production tech. He's my number two. And. And he's been doing a lot of events. You know, we had two funerals this month. One which was one which packed out our main sanctuary, which is crazy. Plus he did a wedding for, you know, a friend of the church up in kck. We just can't do it. So they're gonna have to do it on their own or they're gonna have to pay like a team, you know, somebody to come do it. Yeah. You know, one of my contractors. Cause I, I just, you know, he needs to have a day off and we got our conference coming up, you know.

[B]

Yeah, you work and we all do, but you work hard to fight for especially Caden's hours and then the. And even just your serves team, your serve team's hours. Because we're not like the dream team culture. Work everybody 20 hours a week for free. Like we try to ask people to come do as little as possible because we want them to enjoy doing it.

[A]

Well, yeah. And they're, you know, they're doing it for free.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They're doing it because they want to. They love the Lord and they want to honor the Lord. And I'm not, I don't want to take advantage of them.

[B]

Oh, there's one thing I was going to say too that I think is valuable, especially for worship pastors that sit in my seat and you're over AVL is there have been leadership conversations. You were talking about having each other's back Even with Pastor Clint, Pastor Mary, Pastor Jamie. And there's a lot of work I had to do behind closed doors to fight for you relationally, just because there wasn't the relational equity with Pastor Jamie, Pastor Clint, Pastor Mary. And I think that it's worth stating, especially for people that sit in my seat, that, like, you need to fight for your people behind closed doors.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there were multiple times where just different things were brought into question and not in like a negative way, but just in like, what's he. What's he, you know, mean by this? Or, you know, I had this encounter. Da, da, da, da. And for me to be able to go, hey, I need you guys to trust me because I have relational equity with this person and you just, quite frankly, do not. And so while you see this, like, I actually see this, and then them being like, oh, okay, well, we trust that. But kind of having the guts to say that to the people that can fire you. You know what I mean? Of like fighting relationally for those that, you know, better.

[A]

I'm sure I haven't made that easy on you. Sometimes I'm a bit of a joker.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is it like today during service planning, we always go over the online numbers and online numbers who attended and if there were salvations and. And they said, yeah, we had, you know, like 250 people online and no salvations. And I, I looked Clint straight and Pastor Clint straight in the eyes and I said, well, I should have done better. And he laughed.

[B]

And he laughed.

[A]

He laughed.

[B]

He laughed.

[A]

So it's been. We've worked on that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But. But I think it's important because I think that goes, that plays into you. And I just knowing implicitly, like, I just know if, if Joseph's going to be in a room and my name's going to come up, like, I'm not, like, he's going to have my back. Yeah. No matter what comes out of somebody's mouth concerning me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And vice versa. But I think that's something you have to develop within yourself and you have to be willing to have those, like, relational equity conversations with your leadership.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of going like, hey, I know you see this and I value what you see because.

[A]

Because.

[B]

But I have the relational equity and this is what I see and this is why I think it's important. And that builds a lot of trust as well.

[A]

I know you gotta go. So do you got any final words? Just for some up and coming production leaders, worship leaders that might be listening.

[B]

Yeah. Definitely. Just don't get Caught up in what you see, especially in our day and age, you know, there's so much content, like, there's so many live streams to watch. There's so many music videos. There's so many this and that and the other thing. And the funny thing is, like, everybody who's, like, quote unquote, made it right in those spheres will say the same thing, but it's like, don't get caught up in how stuff looks and how, like, get to the heart of what you're trying to do with the Lord, with your community of people and actually just accomplish that. Because the other thing I've realized, even in just releasing four songs this year with our church, is that, like, to actually make it doing music or doing cool music videos or our live stream, y', all, it's so much work. And it's not work that, like, I want to do for sure. Like, and it's, you know, I think so just run the race like that. The Lord set before you honestly, and pursue a healthy team. Like, we've. We've done that well. And, man, I'm grateful that in nine years, we've got predominantly the same team. If you can fight for your team, build a healthy team of people that love to do tech for the right reasons, that love to worship for the right reasons, your church is going to be healthy, and you're stewarding sheep well. And, you know, if the shepherd sees you stewarding sheep, well, he's gonna be happy with you, and that's a big deal.

[A]

Well, Zach, thanks for your time today, man.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Love you, bro. Tap it.

[B]

Ah, that was good. That was good.

[A]

All right, I'm sure we'll have you on again. All right.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

See you, man. Later. Thanks again for listening to the church Production podcast from ChurchProduction.com. don't forget to subscribe to this podcast, our email list, and our YouTube channel, as well as follow us on Instagram for everything. Church production.