Best Of Buck Brief - Should Trump Appoint an Epstein Special Counsel?

Summary

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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Best Of Buck Brief - Should Trump Appoint an Epstein Special Counsel?
Date: December 8, 2025
Guests: Buck Sexton (Host), Kurt Schlichter (Guest - Author, Lawyer, Commentator)

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Main Theme

This episode dives into whether a potential future Trump administration should appoint a special counsel to re-investigate Jeffrey Epstein’s crimes and associates. Buck Sexton and guest Kurt Schlichter analyze the legal, political, and moral implications of such a move, discuss the limitations of uncovering hidden truths, and touch on broader themes of public trust in institutions. The discussion also branches into Schlichter’s new novel “American Apocalypse,” exploring today’s political polarization.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Legal Strategies and Pleading the Fifth (03:45–06:53)

• Buck opens by discussing recent headlines where people in Biden’s circle plead the Fifth concerning his mental state and potential conspiracies to conceal it.
• Kurt Schlichter (04:26):
  • Explains pleading the Fifth is a common legal move when a crime might be involved.
  • Claims, “This doctor also invented a physician-patient privilege that doesn't exist under federal law.”
  • Suggests a presidential pardon for doctors involved with Biden could potentially compel testimony.
• Discussion on Crime and Self-Incrimination:
  • Kurt notes the modern trend of creatively applying statutes to criminalize ambiguous situations, increasing Fifth Amendment usage.
  • Kurt (05:39):
    • “He’s like, ‘Well, I'm not exactly sure what they’d charge me for… so anything I say could incriminate me… So, I'm not going to say anything.’”
• Both agree that, for self-protection, anyone in the situation would take the Fifth.

2. Trust, Reputation, and the Biden “Dementia” Question (06:10–06:26)

• Buck says:
  • “People say, oh, what about the reputational damage?... We all know. They knew Biden had dementia.”
• Kurt jokes:
  • “The SS Reputation has pulled out of port and set sail.”

3. Should Trump Appoint a Special Counsel into Epstein? (06:57–12:50)

• Buck’s Position (06:57 & 08:00):
  • Strongly opposes the idea of appointing a special counsel, describing it as a “terrible idea.”
• Kurt’s View:
  • Advocates letting the Epstein issue “die out,” as no practical benefit would come from reopening it.
  • Points to challenges: Innocent people and victims could be exposed, child exploitation evidence can’t be made public, and trustworthy people reviewing files would still not satisfy skeptics.
  • Kurt (08:26):
    • “You can’t display child gross tapes. We send people who are absolutely trustworthy in to see what there is, and then they come and report to us. And we did that. …People are like, well… They’ve turned Dan Bongino. Okay, you’re not going to turn Dan Bongino.”
  • If evidence existed, especially of major political figures, the media would have seized it by now.
  • Compares to JFK files: no amount of disclosure will satisfy believers in conspiracy.
• Key Insight (11:27):
  • Buck and Kurt agree that simply appointing a special counsel to “find the truth” is unrealistic, as much of the evidence may have been destroyed or never existed.

4. Public Distrust, Abuse, and Institutional Rot (09:14–13:26)

• Buck and Kurt on Institutional Distrust:
  • The mishandling of the Epstein case, like the JFK files, feeds a “well-earned” public suspicion.
  • Buck: “People have been lied to. This whole thing’s been handled horribly.”
  • Kurt: “I think this is a combination of disappointment, well-earned distrust, revulsion at the subject… there’s simply no defaulting to trust. …Once you’ve lost trust, it takes a long time to earn it back.”
• On Special Counsel Appointments:
  • Buck states special counsels exist for DOJ conflicts of interest, so appointing one here would be an admission the Trump DOJ couldn’t be trusted, which is self-defeating.

5. American Polarization and “American Apocalypse” (14:29–18:11)

• Buck transitions the discussion (14:29):
  • Introduces Kurt Schlichter’s new novel “American Apocalypse: The Second American Civil War.”
• Kurt’s Explanation:
  • The novel is inspired by “genuine concern” that political polarization could escalate beyond procedural politics to force and violence.
  • “Half of America, the left half, doesn’t believe that the right half has any legitimacy to govern… They think we’re actively evil.”
  • The book shows a “worst case scenario” where erosion of norms leads to “a real nightmare.”
• On Hope and Satire:
  • Kurt stresses the book, though tough, isn’t meant to glorify conflict and includes “Schlichter amusing moments.”
  • “If you come out of this going, oh boy, it’d be great to take that other side… No, no.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [04:38] Kurt Schlichter:
  “When we use [the Fifth], it’s often to avoid being railroaded. When they use it, it’s often to avoid accountability, which it does.”
• [06:26] Kurt Schlichter:
  “The SS Reputation has pulled out of port and set sail. Let’s put it that way.”
• [07:59] Buck Sexton:
  “That’s a terrible idea.”
• [08:26] Kurt Schlichter:
  “You can’t… display child gross tapes. We send people who are absolutely trustworthy in to see what there is, and then they come and report to us… Sometimes you’ve got to take yes for an answer.”
• [09:14] Kurt Schlichter:
  “I’m not criticizing people who are suspicious… this whole thing has been handled to [poorly].”
• [12:50] Kurt Schlichter:
  “The answer is to be trustworthy. But, you know, once you’ve lost trust, it takes a long time to earn it back.”
• [14:35] Kurt Schlichter:
  “Half of America, the left half, doesn’t believe that the right half has any legitimacy to govern, even when it wins full and fair elections… When you’re saying Trump is literally Hitler and they are literally saying Trump is literally Hitler, where do you go from that?”
• [17:27] Kurt Schlichter:
  “I didn’t write this [novel] to be miserable… I wanted to tell stories of regular folks that we can identify with so we can see why it’s so important that we get back to the Constitution rather than kind of solving our problems by beating each other over the head.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Legal Pleading & Biden’s Health: 03:45–06:53
• Should Epstein Get a Special Counsel?: 06:57–12:50
• Public Distrust & Institutional Critique: 09:14–13:26
• Novel “American Apocalypse” Discussion: 14:29–18:11

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Tone & Style:
Buck maintains his typical blend of skepticism and humor, while Schlichter adds a lawyer’s pragmatism mixed with dry wit. Both are direct, occasionally sardonic, and display deep cynicism about government transparency and institutional trust.

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Summary Takeaway:
Both hosts thoroughly reject the idea of reopening the Epstein case via a special counsel, arguing that most reasonable avenues for justice or truth have been exhausted, and that conspiracy-minded distrust can’t be quelled by official investigations. Schlichter's appearance is used not only to provide legal analysis but also to promote his new fiction, which reflects broader anxieties about American democracy and partisanship.

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Transcript

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[Buck Sexton]

Hey, everybody. Kurt Schlichter back in the mix. Author, columnist, thinker, conservative commentator, veteran lawyer. He's got a lot of titles, including the title of his new book, American Apocalypse, which is available for pre order right now. So get those pre orders going. It's a fiction book. We'll talk about the book in a second. Let's first talk about this. Mr. Kurt. So we got people, you're a lawyer, so that comes in handy here. People are pleading the fifth. When asked about Biden's mental state and the possibility of conspiracy to keep that from the American people, what do you make of it?

[Kurt Schlichter]

Well, I know why they're doing it, and they may be allowed to do it if there's a crime involved. And there may be a crime. You know, the Fifth Amendment applies to.

When we use it, it's often to avoid being railroaded. When they use it, it's often to avoid accountability, which it does. I mean, this doctor also invented a physician patient privilege that doesn't exist under federal law, so that's out. But there's an easy way to get the doctor's testimony, which is to pardon the doctor for Any alleged crimes that might be associated with his treatment or care of Joe Biden.

[Buck Sexton]

What do you think the crimes. Do you have any sense of what the crime could be?

[Kurt Schlichter]

I don't. One of the problems which the left has created is creative use of statutes to turn things that normal people wouldn't see as crimes into crimes, which makes, which gives people a lot of leeway when they're asserting potential self incrimination. So, you know.

He'S like, well, I'm not exactly sure what they charged me for because it would all be nonsense, but they might charge me. So anything I say could incriminate, tend to incriminate me. So I'm not going to say anything. And I think he has a good chance of getting away with that.

[Buck Sexton]

I was going to say if you were, if you were his attorney. So if you were the consulate.

[Kurt Schlichter]

Oh, he'd be doing that. That's what he'd be doing. He'd be taking the theft totally.

[Preborn Network Representative]

Right.

[Buck Sexton]

I mean, this is.

[Kurt Schlichter]

I ask. Absolutely.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah. There's no upside, especially, I mean, if.

[Kurt Schlichter]

I was his attorney.

[Buck Sexton]

Right, yeah, yeah, of course.

[Kurt Schlichter]

Because.

[Buck Sexton]

Because there's no upside in talking about any of this. And people say, oh, what about the reputational damage? We all know. They knew Biden had dementia. Like there's nothing, you know, there's, there's not going to be some. Oh my gosh, you mean you guys were dishonest about the Biden dementia situation in the White House?

[Kurt Schlichter]

Like.

[Buck Sexton]

No, we know. We already know.

[Kurt Schlichter]

Yeah, yeah. The SS Reputation has pulled out a port and set sail. Let's put it that way. I, I mean, we all know what this guy did. We all knew what he was covering up. They'd like to get him on the record about it. And if they want to be sneaky, they can, you know, get Trump to issue a pardon for anything he did involving the Joe Biden, his care, treatment or administration. And then you've got a, uh, incrimin. Then you have a fifth amendment problem.

So we'll, we'll see what happens.

[Buck Sexton]

Now, something else I want to ask you about. I'm seeing what I, What I don't want to do is get into a, a 20, 20 years of Epstein conspiracy conversation. Like this is. This is everywhere now. I know, I know. So we're going to skip past the. All the, there's all this stuff and there's all the theories and there's all this. Already covered this on the show. I can already. The comments, I can, I can pre. See in my mind, they're just like, he's paid off.

[Kurt Schlichter]

He's.

[Buck Sexton]

I've talked about this all. I've been talking about this much longer than a lot of other people. I was the one who told everybody on the Sean Ryan show, which obviously blew up everywhere because it's a freaking huge show about the 2019 raid. The FBI is like, oh, we have the tapes. We're going to leave the tapes, and we're going to leave the house, and the tapes are gone, and we come back. You know, I told people this, they didn't even believe. Anyway, I don't want to get too, too deep into this now. What I do want to ask, though, is I'm seeing that there's, like, the online chirping. I don't know if it's real about a special counsel. And to me, I just look at this and I go, that's a.

[Preborn Network Representative]

That's an even.

[Buck Sexton]

That's a terrible idea.

[Kurt Schlichter]

It's an awful idea. Let's let this thing die out. Look, here's the thing. We all like. Well, we want the truth about Epstein. Okay. How would you get that? Well, I would send people I absolutely trust in to review everything, because obviously everything can't come because innocent people might be involved. They're innocent victims. You. You. You can't, you know, display child gross tapes.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Kurt Schlichter]

We send people who are absolutely trustworthy in to see what there is, and then they come and report to us. And we did that. And, you know, Dan Bongino et al. Comes out and says, okay, I've looked at it, and I was wrong. There was nothing there. And people are like, well, you're. They've turned Dan Bongino. Okay, you're not going to turn Dan Bongino. You know, sometimes you've got to take yes for an answer. Is there. Is there more there? I've looked for it. I can't find it. Maybe it was there and now it's gone. Maybe there are other.

[Buck Sexton]

This is my thing about. About the. The JFK files, which. I know it's a different. But it's also gotten. Which is there's nothing you can release from the JFK files that will make the people who believe there's more in the JFK files believe it. They've gotten all the JFK files. There's no such thing.

[Kurt Schlichter]

Exactly. And again, I'm not criticizing people who are suspicious or upset or annoyed. This whole thing has been handled to.

[Buck Sexton]

And abused. Yeah. People have been lied to. This whole thing's been handled horribly. There. There were clearly, you know, at some level, you're like, ok, so if the DOJ wasn't being pushed by, like, the Cabal or some foreign intelligence service or whatever, it's really this incompetent that they could let Epstein get away with this as long as they did. I mean, that's horror. That's horrifying.

[Kurt Schlichter]

Horrifying in a whole different way.

[Rubrik Representative]

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[Buck Sexton]

Horrifying.

[Kurt Schlichter]

I just. I just ask myself, do you think Dan Bongino is going to go in there and lie to cover up, to protect Epstein? I think that is less likely, more likely, not true than true. Do you think that Epstein is going to sit down and have a notarized list of, you know, in his own handwriting, of all the people and their various perversions? I think he probably hasn't. Do you think that if Donald Trump's name was on any of that stuff, it wouldn't have been on the front page of the New York times in probably 2016? No, I don't. You know, I'm still a lawyer. Technically. I have to go where the evidence takes me. And the evidence says this is a very bad guy who did a lot of very bad things. But the idea that he was some sort of ernstavros Blofeld of child molesting.

We had this giant network of connected people.

I don't see the evidence of it. I'm not against seeing the evidence. If it was there, I'd be.

[Buck Sexton]

I'd accept the other thing that I brought up, see, where I was just trying to talk with the special counsel idea. But here we are talking about the, you know, we're going down the Epstein rabbit hole, but here we are down the rabbit hole that when, when someone has done something that would be very high profile and rather involving very high profile, very powerful people a long time ago that would rely on very, very clear evidence. The thing about this as well is the kind of crimes that people are talking about here, if you bring that charge against somebody, even their life is probably ruined, whether they're, you know, and they could be innocent.

[Rubrik Representative]

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[Buck Sexton]

I mean, like, you're done, so you got to be damn sure about it. A lot of that evidence may have long since been destroyed, discarded. All of the above. And I don't think that that's. I don't think that that's somebody being naive or anything else. Like, if that stuff was out there and people say things like there's a foreign intelligence service or that this was somehow, you know, a deep state cabal, whatever it is, they're not going to leave that stuff around, they would know where it is and they would have cleaned this up a long time ago. So I think that that's a fair point to make in all this, that what Dan and Cash and Bondi have access to now very well may not be for a variety of reasons, the totality of what existed. So anyway, but see, we're getting a special counsel. I just put this out to you. I also say, I also, it's a terrible idea. And it's because you do a special counsel when you can't trust your own DOJ because of a conflict of interest to do the, to do the, the investigating. And so that would be the Trump administration saying, I can't trust my doj. We have a conflict of interest, therefore. Right. It's a horrible idea. Do I have to call these influencers on the phone who are friends of mine, influencers, whatever we call them, like the yous and the me's out there, like the guys like us who are talking about this stuff in public and say, guys, special counsel, horrible idea. Stop talking about this.

[Kurt Schlichter]

It's a terrible idea. And.

I think this is a combination of disappointment, well earned distrust, revulsion at the subject and just a, you know, a general understanding that we've been abused so much in the past and lied to so thoroughly and so often that, you know, there's simply no defaulting to trust. And that's, I mean, that's, that's a real problem. The answer is to be trustworthy. But, you know, once you've lost trust, it takes a long time to earn it back.

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[Buck Sexton]

That sounds a little, a little sad, little tough. Tell me about it, though. What's going on?

[Kurt Schlichter]

Well, American Apocalypse, the Second American Civil War is a book I wrote because I'm worried. We have a status quo right now where half of America, the left half, doesn't believe that the right half has any legitimacy to govern, even when it wins full and fair elections for the presidency, for Congress, every, you know, buck. It's not that they just disagree with us, it's that they think we're actively evil. When you're telling, when you're saying Trump is literally Hitler and they are literally saying Trump is literally Hitler, where do you go from that? It kind of implies that the normal rules don't apply and the normal rules haven't applied. The norms, the guidelines, they're all gone. And they, you know, we're to the point where we can't rely on political procedures and the law the way we used to be able to. We used to be able to go into court and basically think, well, you know, if we're right, even if the judge doesn't agree with us, we're going to be able to enforce the laws. That's not happening. And when you have a society that isn't run by laws and isn't run by political procedures, what's left to run it? Force. And we are seeing force used by them. Force against ICE agents. We're seeing Palestinians murder people. They just murdered a couple people this weekend. We're seeing more and more violence, more and more threats. We had a low grade insurgency in the 60s and 70s with the weather Underground and the Simulane Liberation army with the LAPD knew how to take care of. Unfortunately, the FBI didn't. Bill Ayers is still a prominent member of academia instead of rotting in Florence, Colorado supermax. But you know, could it be worse? And this, this book is the worst case scenario. This shows how a combination of arrogance, corruption, stupidity, and a failure to honor norms and rules could spin completely out of control into a real nightmare. And this novel is about that nightmare.

[Buck Sexton]

Go get your copy or get your at least your pre. Order in for your copy at Amazon and wherever books are sold.

[Kurt Schlichter]

Amazon is where you go to get it. And I gotta tell you again, it's not a complete death march. There are some trademark Schlichter amusing moments. I think there may be a Buck Sexton. There may be a Buck Sexton cameo in there.

[Buck Sexton]

Fantastic. I mean, you need a former CIA analyst with a great head of hair and a cynical attitude about life in whatever your novel may be, who also.

[Kurt Schlichter]

Has the greatest porno name I've ever heard.

But it's a burden you live with.

But you know, I didn't write this to be miserable, and I didn't write it as nonfiction. I wrote it as fiction because I wanted to tell stories of regular folks that we can identify with so we can see why it's so important that we get back to the Constitution rather than kind of solving our problems by beating each other over the head. And if it ever got to that, it would be horrifying. And there's a lot of. It's a tough book. Like the Attack was a tough book. My previous one about a terrorist incident. This is a tough book. And there are some lighter moments. But if you come out of this going, oh boy, it'd be great to take that other side and just beat the hell out of them. And then, then everything will be great. No, no.

[Buck Sexton]

All righty. Go get your copy on Amazon. Kurt Schlichter, thank you so much.

[Kurt Schlichter]

Hey, thanks for having me.

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