BONUS: Why We Should Designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a Terrorist Organization, plus IRS Concludes Churches Can Endorse Candidates & NYT Reports Biden Unaware of Many Autopen Pardons

Summary

Summary of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show Episode: BONUS: Why We Should Designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a Terrorist Organization, plus IRS Concludes Churches Can Endorse Candidates & NYT Reports Biden Unaware of Many Autopen Pardons
Release Date: July 17, 2025
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts

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1. Designating the Muslim Brotherhood as a Terrorist Organization

Overview:
Senator Ted Cruz spearheads efforts to classify the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization, highlighting its global influence and violent intentions. The discussion delves into the historical context, current legislative actions, and the obstacles faced due to political dynamics within the U.S. Congress.

Key Points:

• Historical Background:
  The Muslim Brotherhood, established in 1928 in Egypt, has grown into a global Islamist organization with branches worldwide. Its objective is to overthrow non-Islamist governments through violent jihad.

• Current Legislative Efforts:
  Senator Cruz introduced legislation to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist entity, a movement he has championed for over a decade. This initiative is gaining bipartisan support in the House but faces significant opposition in the Senate, primarily from Democrats.

• International Context:
  Numerous allies, including Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and several European nations, have already designated the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization. This global consensus underscores the urgency of similar actions by the United States.

• Political Challenges:
  Democratic opposition stems from ideological sympathies and reluctance to sever ties with organizations like Hamas, a known branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Senator Cruz attributes the delay to Democrats' support for groups antagonistic to U.S. interests and allies.

Notable Quotes:

• Ted Cruz [05:28]:
  "The Muslim Brotherhood is a global Islamist violent organization. It explicitly intends to use violent jihad to overthrow non-Islamist governments."

• Jamie Rubin [06:00]:
  "Why is America lagging behind when our allies have already taken decisive action against the Muslim Brotherhood?"

• Ted Cruz [12:34]:
  "This new bill uses a bottoms-up approach, identifying branches that support terrorism and then designating the Brotherhood for that support. It's a strategy that has proven effective in the past."

2. IRS Policy Change: Churches Can Endorse Political Candidates

Overview:
The IRS has updated its interpretation of the Johnson Amendment, allowing churches and pastors to openly endorse political candidates without risking their tax-exempt status. This marks a significant shift in the relationship between religious institutions and political activity.

Key Points:

• Johnson Amendment Background:
  Historically, the Johnson Amendment restricted non-profit organizations, including churches, from participating in political campaigns to maintain their tax-exempt status. This led to self-censorship among religious leaders concerning political endorsements.

• Recent Policy Shift:
  On July 7, the IRS clarified that endorsements made through the pulpit are akin to family discussions and do not constitute participation or intervention in political campaigns, thus exempting churches from penalties under the Johnson Amendment.

• Legal Proceedings:
  The change followed litigation by National Religious Broadcasters versus the IRS, challenging the amendment's restrictions on the First Amendment grounds. The IRS settled the case, reinforcing the new guidelines.

• Implications for Religious Institutions:
  This policy change empowers religious leaders to speak more freely on political matters, potentially influencing local and national elections by providing congregations with clear endorsements based on faith-based perspectives.

Notable Quotes:

• Ted Cruz [20:47]:
  "Churches endorsing political candidates simply engage in a family discussion. Therefore, communications from a house of worship on matters of faith involving electoral politics do not violate the Johnson Amendment."

• Jamie Rubin [21:26]:
  "This is a major change that will free up pastors to speak their truth and influence public policy based on biblical teachings."

• Ted Cruz [23:57]:
  "When you subpoena one pastor, you subpoena every pastor. We will not submit."

3. New York Times Report: Biden’s Use of Auto-Penned Pardons

Overview:
The New York Times published an exposé revealing that President Joe Biden may not have been individually aware of many of the pardons issued using an autopen, raising questions about the legality and validity of these clemency actions.

Key Points:

• Department of Justice Guidelines:
  The DOJ's Office of Legal Counsel states that while presidents can use autopens for signatures on pardons, they must make individualized determinations for each pardon. Delegation of this authority to aides violates constitutional requirements.

• New York Times Findings:
  The report indicates that President Biden did not personally approve individual pardons but instead signed off on criteria for categories of pardons. Specific pardons were then executed using an autopen without his direct consent, rendering them potentially invalid.

• Legal Implications:
  If pardons are not individually approved by the president, they may be considered null and void, undermining their legal standing and opening avenues for legal challenges.

• Call to Action:
  Senator Cruz urges a thorough review of the pardon records and recommends legal challenges to invalidate improperly authorized pardons, emphasizing the need for accountability and adherence to constitutional protocols.

Notable Quotes:

• Ted Cruz [32:59]:
  "Those pardons aren't valid. We're going to explain all of that right now."

• Jamie Rubin [36:48]:
  "This could open up a whole lot of can of worms on a lot of different issues."

• Ted Cruz [38:24]:
  "The White House should go through systematically through the records and see what the records demonstrate."

Conclusion

In this episode, The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show addresses three critical issues impacting national security, religious freedoms, and presidential accountability. Senator Ted Cruz provides an in-depth analysis of the necessity to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization, applauds the IRS's new stance allowing churches to participate in political endorsements, and scrutinizes President Biden's use of autopen for pardon issuance. The discussions are enriched with firsthand insights, legislative perspectives, and calls to action for listeners to engage in these pivotal matters.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, promotional segments, and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions of the episode.

Transcript

[iHeart Podcast]

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[Ted Cruz]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm Christiane Amanpour and I've been on the front lines and interviewing world leaders for more than 30 years.

[Jamie Rubin]

And I'm Jamie Rubin, a former advisor to both Presidents Clinton and Biden.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We were married for 20 years and divorced for seven. Now we've joined forces on the X Files to make sense of how we ended up with no world order. Listen to Christiana Manpour presents the X files on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcast.

[Jamie Rubin]

Welcome. It is Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson with you. It's nice to have you. And Senator, we've got some very interesting legislation that you are heading up that is making waves. Fill people in on what you're wanting to do.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, this week I introduced legislation to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization. This is a fight I've been fighting for over a decade. I think the Muslim Brotherhood clearly is a terrorist organization. It is profoundly dangerous. And I think we are closer right now to victory on this issue than we ever have been. We're going to do a deep dive, explain the background, what the issues are, why we're close to victory, and what that would mean. We're also going to talk about an amazing development, a really important development, which is the IRS has now said explicitly that churches and pastors can endorse political candidates. That is a big, big deal. For a long time there was legislation known as the Johnson Amendment that was interpreted as stripping the ability of pastors and churches to express their views on politics. The IRS entered into a consent agreement that now makes clear churches and pastors can tell their congregations exactly what they think about politics. That's a big, big deal. And finally, the New York Times, in a shocking expose, looked at the Biden auto pen scandal and they reported that from for a significant portion of the auto penned pardons that Joe Biden signed that he was not individually aware of who it was that was getting pardoned that is incredibly consequential. It means, as a legal matter, those pardons are null and void. We're going to explain all of that right now.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah, it's a really interesting story. We're going to have all those details for you in just a moment. Let me also just say many of you may be listening to the show for the first time fighting this podcast on another feed. And if you are, don't forget to hit that subscribe or auto download button, as we actually do the show three days a week. So make sure you do that. All right. I. I love when I get to take a moment and tell you about something that I genuinely think you're going to love. And my good friends Buck Sexton and Clay Travis, they are coffee aficionados and they decided to start a company. It is called Crockett Coffee. It is maybe the best cup of coffee I've ever had, period. And every morning I start my day now with Crockett Coffee. It is small batch. They do this on purpose by experts who love the taste of great coffee. It's also roasted in our nation's heartland. And then the best part is it's delivered to to you at your home or your office. Now, if you love starting your day with a cup of coffee, why not get the best you can get in a small batch the way they designed it to be done At Crockett Coffee, you get to choose between their dark roast, their mild roast, their light roast. They even have a decaf version. You get to choose between fresh ground or whole bean or K cups, whatever it is you want. They also have mushroom coffee and the positive benefits that come with enjoying that each day. They are now producing that as well. Now let me save you money so you can try Crockett Coffee. And it's going to save you a bunch of cash. All right, go to crockett coffee.com and if you use my name, Ben, you get 20% off your first order. All right, that's crockett coffee.com and my name, Ben, as your promo code. You're going to get 20% off. Whether it's K cups or it's the whole bean. The fresh ground just up your coffee game. And it's also really well priced. That's what you're going to love. You're just going to upgrade to a better cup of coffee for probably what you're spending right now. So check it out. Crockettcoffee.com use my name, Ben, as your promo code. You get 20% off. All right, Senator you said that 20. This has been something, I should say, for well over a decade you have been working on, and I am shocked why there is so much pushback. Give a little background on the Muslim Brotherhood. Let's start there. For people that may not realize what this global organization is, what they do, and why you think that they need to be included and designated as a, as a terrorist organization, sure.

[Ted Cruz]

The Muslim Brotherhood is a global Islamist violent organization. It was founded in 1928 in Egypt. It was a fringe group for the first few decades, and then it grew dramatically inside of Egypt and then it spread beyond. The Muslim Brotherhood has branches in countries and territories all over the world. And, and they are openly committed to seizing control of those countries and seizing control of those. Those territories. They explicitly intend to use violent jihad to overthrow non Islamist governments. During the Obama administration, they did. They seized control of Egypt. Mohammed Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood seized control until they were ultimately overthrown by the Egyptian army. By the way, when, when the Muslim Brotherhood took over Egypt, the Obama administration cheered them on. And how do we know that the Muslim Brotherhood supports terrorism? Because several of their branches are explicit terrorist organizations. Among those is Hamas, which everyone listening to this podcast knows about. Hamas, yeah. Hamas is one of the wings of the Muslim Brotherhood. They also include other groups that, that folks may not have heard about, like Hassam and Liwa Al Farah, both of which the State Department says have been associated with the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. And they are branches that have already been formally designated as terrorist groups. Other Brotherhood branches are committing terrorism right now, but they haven't yet been formally designated. Just a few weeks ago, the Jordanian government disrupted attacks being planned by Brotherhood members, and police raided the Islamic Action Front, which is the Jordanian Muslim Brotherhood branch.

[Jamie Rubin]

You. You hear that? And then the question that I think some of you listening and I'm thinking in my head right now is, okay, if there is such a long history, why did it take so long for us to even get to the point that we're at right now, if it's been this clear that they're a terrorist organization? And then the second part is, then why in the past, even after whether it was 9, 11, or other attacks that we've seen around the world, why haven't they already been listed as a terrorist organization?

[Ted Cruz]

Well, it's a complicated story, and it basically comes down to the messed up politics inside the American Democrat Party. A bunch of our allies have already designated the entire Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization in the Middle East. Bahrain has done so. Egypt has done so Jordan has done so. Saudi Arabia has done so. The UAE has done so. In Europe, Austria has designated the Muslim Brotherhood as terrorist organization. There's a bill right now in Germany to designated. And French intelligence has described the Muslim Brotherhood as, quote, a threat to national cohesion. British officials say the Brotherhood is right now under surveillance under their anti extremism laws. So the question is, why is America lagging behind? And I'll tell you, we've done it. I've been pushing to do this for over a decade. We're in the 119th Congress right now. I introduced versions of this bill in the 114th Congress in 2015, in the 115th Congress in 2017, and the 116th Congress in 2020, and in the 117th Congress in 2021. And the reason that it hasn't gone anywhere is that Democrats oppose it. Now, it seems weird. Why would progressives embrace a fundamentalist Islamist jihadist organization which is openly and brazenly against rights for women, openly and brazenly against rights for homosexuals. But to the left, they do it because the Muslim Brotherhood is also anti American and it wants to see Israel destroyed. And there is a significant chunk of today's left that celebrates with the anti Israel hatred, that celebrates with Hamas, and that celebrates attacks on America.

[Jamie Rubin]

If I remember correctly, the Muslim Brotherhood was also, if we go back to Obama's years, somewhat normalized as well, right?

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah. Look, when the Muslim Brotherhood was running Egypt, when they took it over and Mohammed Morsi was there, you may remember, there were a million people that showed up in the streets of Cairo protesting against the Muslim Brotherhood because the people of Egypt did not want to live under. Under jihadists. They did not want to live under enforced Sharia law. And at the time, it was amazing. There were signs that you could see in this crowd of a million Egyptians protesting signs that said Obama supports the Muslim Brotherhood. The ambassador, Obama's ambassador at the time to Egypt was a woman named Ann Patterson. There were signs, pictures of her saying, anne Patterson supports Mohamed Morsi. The Obama administration leaned in aggressively supporting the Brotherhood. And in fact, when El Sisi, who is the current leader of Egypt, took over, when the army took over, the Obama administration was vocally against that. Now El Sisi is an ally of America. El Sisi is locking up jihadists and radical Islamic terrorists who want to murder us. And bizarrely, the Obama administration got very angry with them, withhold weapons from them, put pressure on them, because they didn't like that the current Egyptian government was standing up to the Muslim Brotherhood. And if you fast forward to the Biden administration, the Biden administration basically restored the old Obama policies of embracing the Muslim Brotherhood. And not only that, they sent hundreds of millions of dollars, maybe even billions of dollars to Gaza, knowing that Gaza was controlled by Hamas and knowing that it would go directly into the hands of Hamas.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah. And that is when, when I look at this and then you go back and you say, okay, all this is happening. You announced that you're doing this bill several weeks ago. In fact, you announced on X. And I remember in that post that you said you were introducing a modernized version of your bill. Explain exactly what that means. How is this one different and what changes were made and why they're so important? And could this help? This possibly become something that is bipartisan, or is there no way that's gonna happen?

[Ted Cruz]

Well, it might. And actually it is bipartisan right now in the House. So I've introduced the bill in the Senate and I have a total of five senators on my bill right now. They're all Republican. I am trying to convince a Democrat senator to support it in the House. The same bill is being led by two representatives from Florida, Mario Diaz Balard, a Republican, a fellow Cuban American, a good friend, and Jared Moskovitz. And Jared is a Democrat. So in the House, we have Democrat supporters, bipartisan support. That is encouraging. But you asked how we modernize the bill. In the past, both in Congress and in the Trump 45 White House, we took a top down approach to listing the entire Brotherhood. And the idea was to designate the global Muslim Brotherhood and then all of its branches. Now, the challenge and some of the pushback we got is that not every one of the Brotherhood branches is currently violent. And so each of the branches doesn't necessarily meet the criteria for designation. And that was an argument critics used to try to block the designation. This new bill instead uses a bottoms up approach. We start by identifying all the branches that the Muslim Brotherhood supports that are terrorist groups or that commit terrorism, and then we designate the entire Brotherhood for that support. In other words, we build up with what is explicitly and indisputably terrorist, and then we designate the Brotherhood as a whole for supporting those terrorist groups.

[Jamie Rubin]

So do you think this approach will actually work moving forward? Is this something that you say is going to be more palatable for people and also an easier sale?

[Ted Cruz]

Well, look, I think it could work. We use the exact same approach during the Trump 45 administration to list Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps that the IRGC in 2017 and Congress mandated That action through legislation. And then the Treasury Department implemented our mandate by listing the IRGC for supporting one of its branches, the IRGC Quds Force, which is undoubtedly a terrorist organization. So it worked. And, and, and to get technical for a second, there are three different ways to, to list terrorist groups. Congress can do it through the Anti terrorism Act of 1987, which is how the PLO is listed. The State Department can do it by labeling a group as a foreign terrorist organization, or the Treasury Department can do it by labeling a group what is called a specially designated global terrorist. My bill does all three. And so it's belts and suspenders on the global Muslim Brotherhood. And that results in immediate and devastating sanctions. And it gives law enforcement greater tools to go after not just the Muslim Brotherhood, but those who are financially supporting it. Now, you asked can it happen? It can we have one Democrat in the House. I'm hoping we will get one or more Democrats in the Senate. We don't right now. I've had conversations today with Democrats trying to get them on board. There are two paths for this to go forward. One, I think it would make a very good sense for us to vote on it on the Senate floor for John Thune to bring it up and make senators vote. Most of the Democrats are gonna vote no because for whatever reason, the Democrat ideology. These are the same Democrats that are terrified to denounce the anti Israel, anti Semitic protests on campuses. These are the same Democrats that are really frightened of the pro Hamas wing of their party and the pro Hamas wing. As we talked about, Hamas is explicitly an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood. So most of the Democrats would be a no. I think it'd be valuable to get them on record, force them to vote. But I'll tell you what I think the real path to success will be is, is, is that we're going to lead the fight in the Senate. I hope we tee this up for a vote. And if the Democrats block it, which in all likelihood they will, they have for a decade. What I think's gonna happen is I think the President is gonna do this through an executive order. And I'm certainly urging President Trump to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization through an executive order. And I think the fight that I'm leading in the Senate helps build momentum for the president to step in and make this designation. I think it's gonna happen. I think we're gonna see it happen this term.

[Jamie Rubin]

Final question on this for people that are listening. This is why I love doing this show. People want to get involved what can they do? Should they be calling their Congress and their senators, and should they be reaching out to the White House as well?

[Ted Cruz]

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Speak out. Call your senator, call your House member, tell them to support my legislation designating the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization. Get on social media, speak out, use your voice. And by the way, share this podcast. This podcast lays out all the facts. And so if you want people to know about this, share this podcast with others so that they can know the facts and build momentum. Because really what we're trying to do through this fight is build momentum that will encourage the White House to designate the Muslim Brotherhood, which would be a big, big deal if and when we get this done.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah, we're gonna keep you updated on this because, I mean, this could be something that could take obviously weeks or months. Right? I mean, that's a realistic timeline.

[Ted Cruz]

Absolutely.

[Jamie Rubin]

So we'll keep you updated on it. But I love that we got to start with this. This is something you may hear nowhere else. Make sure you share the podcast. All right, I want to move on to this other issue center, and that is the IRS is now saying churches can endorse candidates. I want to be clear, when I first saw this headline, I'm like, hold on. Many on the Democrat side have been doing this for years.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah, no, it's a complete double standard. You see, Democrats, they go and campaign in frequently African American churches and pastors endorse Democrats openly and brazenly. They have for a long time. Nevertheless, there is a provision of the United States code, it's known as the Johnson Amendment, and it is part of 26 USC Section 501 that threatens to strip nonprofits of their tax exempt status should they, quote, participate in or intervene in any political campaign. And for many years, pastors and churches, particularly those right of center, have been afraid to be explicit about politics because the consequence they feared was, was that. Was that their tax exempt status would be stripped away. Now, from the day the Johnson Amendment was passed, no church has ever had its tax exempt status stripped for speaking out on under. About politics. But nonetheless, a lot of pastors self censor and are afraid to say, say their own views about, about what they think the Bible teaches about issues of public policy, about issues of politics. And just Last week on July 7, the IRS agreed in a court filing that churches can now endorse political candidates at the pulpit. And the IRS created an exception to the Johnson Amendment. The IRS reasoned that churches endorsing political candidates resembles a family discussion concerning candidates and therefore communications from houses of worship to its congregation. On matters of faith involving electoral politics, do not run afoul of the Johnson Amendment.

[Jamie Rubin]

This is one of those moments where I actually think this is going to just be massive to level the playing field, as you mentioned a moment ago, because it's been happening on the, on the left for so long. And there have been a lot of, like you said, pastors, pastors that I know personally, that we're afraid to talk about politics or even the election day outside of, like, hey, remember to vote or register to vote, but like, not getting into the issues, not getting into the candidates. And this is, I think, great that many Christians and many churches, many pastors are now going to be freed up to actually preach what they believe the Bible says about biblical issues that are in the political realm. Abortion is a great example of that.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah. And this was teed up, this came through litigation, and it was a lawsuit. National Religious Broadcasters versus Long. Billy Long is the commissioner of the irs, and National Religious Broadcasters sued the irs, and they argued that the Johnson Amendment violated the church's First Amendment rights. And they filed the case in the Eastern District of Texas. They were before a Judge Cam Barker, who I helped select to be on the bench. He's a strong principled conservative and a constitutionalist. And they were litigating before Judge Barker in Texas. And the IRS decided to settle this matter. And the IRS settled this matter. And this is one of the advantages of winning elections. When you win elections, you control the executive branch. And when you control the executive branch, you can decide to settle litigation. And so the IRS signed a joint consent judgment that, that expressly stipulates churches may endorse candidates or promote political issues without risking their tax exempt status. And here's what the IRS said. When churches address political matters, quote, through the lens of religious faith, it neither participates nor intervenes in a political campaign. Remember, those are the words of the Johnson Amendment. Participate or intervene in a political campaign within the ordinary meaning of those words. Rather than take part or interfere with the course of a campaign. Churches that endorse political candidates simply engage in a family discussion. Therefore, when properly interpreted, communications from a house of worship to its congregation on matters of faith involving electoral politics do not run afoul of the Johnson Amendment. That is a big deal. And it will free up the ability for religious leaders, for pastors, to speak their heart and to speak the truth to the congregation about what they believe the Bible teaches and how that impacts issues in public policy. This is a major, major change.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yeah. It also could have a huge impact on local elections. And I think that's one of the biggest outcomes that could be positive from this is that pastors really are able to talk about who they believe is best for their cities and for their community and bring it back to the local aspect of it. And it'll be interesting to see how this plays out as well.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah, Ben. And let me tell you a story from, from a number of years ago. A number of years ago, the Houston mayor, who was a left wing Democrat and the Houston city attorney subpoenaed the sermon notes for five pastors in Houston. And these were pastors in Houston who were preaching on marriage and preaching on same sex marriage. And the left wing Democrat mayor did not like what these pastors were preaching about marriage and biblical marriage. And so the city decided, we're going to subpoena your sermon notes and go after you. And when that happened, I was very dismayed about that. I've spent most of my adult life fighting to defend religious liberty, and the idea of the city going after pastors was horrific. And so I picked up the phone and I called my pastor and I called him. I said, pastor, have you seen what's happened with a subpoena to the five pastors in Houston? And he said, oh, yeah, I've definitely seen it. He said, I've been praying about it all morning. And I said, well, look, I'm praying about it as well, and I'm very dismayed. I want us to stand up and fight it. And I told him, I said, listen, I want to organize a rally. I want to bring pastors together to speak out against this, to defend the religious liberty of pastors in our hometown. And I said, I'd like to have a rally of pastors Tomorrow, Thursday at 11am and I was calling to see would you be willing to host that rally at the church? And Ben, my pastor, begins laughing and he says, ted, you know, the Bible tells us that God has ordered our steps long before we have any awareness of it. My pastor said, a month ago, God laid on my heart to pray for our city. He said, a month ago, I reached out to pastors across the city and invited them to come to my office to pray for the city of Houston. He said, I've got 50 pastors coming to my office tomorrow, Thursday at 10am that's incredible. And we both just kind of stopped. And I don't know if you ever heard the phrase a godwink, but it kind of felt like God was winking at us then. And so the Next day, I arrived at his office at 10am I joined the pastors. We spent an hour on our knees praying for our city. And then we went out in a rally. And it was fantastic. If you look at, you had pastors across denominations, you had pastors across racial lines of white pastors, black pastors, Hispanic pastors, Asian pastors. Heck, you even had First Baptist and second Baptist. And you know, well, that that is not easy. But they were there and we had complete unity. And one of the things I said at that rally, I said, caesar has no jurisdiction over the pulpit. And when you subpoena one pastor, you subpoena every pastor. And I'll tell you, Ben, it was amazing. There was so much light and heat that came from that press conference. It drove enormous attention and drove enormous coverage in the news and in the media that within 24 hours, the city of Houston withdrew its subpoenas and just surrendered. That was the power of pastors standing up saying, we will not submit. And it made a real difference in the city of Houston.

[Jamie Rubin]

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[Ted Cruz]

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[iHeart Podcast]

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[Ted Cruz]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

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[Jamie Rubin]

And I'm Jamie Rubin, a former advisor to both Presidents Clinton and Biden.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We were married for 20 years and divorced for seven. Now we've joined forces on the X Files to make sense of how we ended up with no world Order. Listen to Christiana Manpour presents the X files on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Jamie Rubin]

Finally, Senator, I want to move to another issue. And it is really exploded over the last 24 hours. And that is new information that we now have on Biden's use of the auto pin. It is a scandal that I don't think people understand just how big it is and what is now been admitted to when it comes the auto pin usage. And Joe Biden maybe not knowing it was being used at all.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, so the New York Times on July 13 wrote a major story that says Biden says he made the clemency decisions that were recorded with auto pen. And you and I talked about it in an earlier podcast that the Department of Justice has an opinion that it issued a number of years ago, the Office of Legal Counsel, about whether you can use an auto pen for presidential signatures, whether that's a presidential signature on an executive order, a presidential signature on a law that is being signed into law, or a presidential signature on a pardon. And what the Department of Justice has concluded is that you can use an auto pen for any of those. But the test is the authority is the President's and the President's alone. So the President cannot delegate that authority to anyone else. The President has to make the decision. And what the Department of Justice explained, and this was years ago, is that the operative legal test is did the President make the individual determination to sign the executive order to sign the specific piece of legislation to grant the pardon? And if the President made that individualized determination, then you can use an auto pen to reflect that, but the President has to be the decider. Uh, and so that's the legal standard. But what the New York Times reported was, quote, Mr. Biden did not individually approve each name for the categorical pardons that applied to large numbers of people he and AIDS confirmed. Rather, after extensive discussion of different possible criteria, he signed off on the standards he wanted to be used to determine which convicts would qualify for a reduction in sentence. Even after Mr. Biden made that decision. One former aide said the Bureau of Prisons kept providing additional information about specific inmates, resulting in small changes to the list. Rather than ask Mr. Biden to keep signing revised versions, his staff waited and then ran the final version through the auto pen, which they saw as a routine procedure. The aide said that is stunning because under the Department of Justice guidance, those pardons aren't valid. If the president didn't decide, I am going to pardon Ben Ferguson, you know, if he didn't know that, that would not be sufficient. And the New York Times, the consequence of this, listen, I think the Trump White House needs to go through the records and look, they have the records because they're now in charge of the White House and examine what specifically has a paper trail that shows Biden signed off on the specific action. And those, that, that, that there is no paper trail, that there is no evidence. And the New York Times is reporting, they're admitting, oh yeah, they're broad categories he didn't know about at all. He didn't know the specific people. Those are null and void. Those have no legal force. And my recommendation to Pam Bondi and the Department of Justice is they should look specifically at the most vulnerable and, and, and devise and implement a legal challenge to, to challenge these and to make clear that, that an unelected aide running an auto pen does not have the power to grant a pardon under the United States Constitution.

[Jamie Rubin]

So now that we have this information, the big question is when do these pardons, what happens next? How do you go about undoing this? And how big of a legal fight is that gonna be?

[Ted Cruz]

Well, look, it's gonna be a termination number one of the White House and the White House counsel assessing what are the records show? What records did they keep of Biden signing off? We know that he personally signed the pardon for Hunter Biden. So that one he knew about and he did so.

[Jamie Rubin]

So that one is, is that also very telling?

[Ted Cruz]

Yes, he.

[Jamie Rubin]

And is that going to be used in many ways as an example of like, dude, he had no idea what was going on over here. The ones he did know about, he knew he, damn it well, better sign them himself. His son is a great example of that. Does that actually hurt the argument for, for Biden that all the others are valid?

[Ted Cruz]

Potentially, although they are arguing that they discussed it with him and he approved. And so some of the high profile ones, like you look at Anthony Fauci, who was pardoned, they're maintaining they discussed it with Biden and Biden said he wanted to pardon him. If that's true, if he made the decision and directed them to sign a pardon, then under the Department of Justice's OLC memorandum that is valid. The question is, are there ones and according to the New York Times, there are a lot of that. Biden did not know and did not approve the specific individual receiving the pardon. And if he didn't know and didn't approve, then it's not a valid pardon.

[Jamie Rubin]

So when you look at the timeline of this moving forward and some of these could be very significant, one that comes to mind is Dr. Anthony Fauci, for example. This could, this could, I mean open up a whole lot of can of worms on a lot of different issues.

[Ted Cruz]

It could, it depends what. So what I believe, I believe the White House should go through systematically through the records and see what the records demonstrate and the Department of Justice should pick, starting with a test case to go challenge this. The, the, the, the, the look for a fact pattern in which there is the clearest absence of any approval from, from the actual President. And, and, and go challenge those in particular.

[Jamie Rubin]

It's going to be interesting. We're going to cover all of it. Don't forget we do the show Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Hit that subscriber auto download button and make sure you don't miss as we continue to keep you updated on these exact issues moving forward. The center and I will see you back here on Friday morning.

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[Ted Cruz]

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[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm Christiane Amanpour and I've been on the front lines and interviewing world leaders for more than 30 years.

[Jamie Rubin]

And I'm Jamie Rubin, a former advisor to both Presidents Clinton and Biden.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We were married for 20 years and divorced for seven. Now we've joined forces on the X Files to make sense of how we ended up with no world order. Listen to Christiane Amanpour presents the X files on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[iHeart Podcast]

This is an iHeart podcast.