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David Rutherford Show: This U.S. General Was Taken Down by the System He Served | Brig. Gen. Chris Sage
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- [00:00]
Angie Hicks
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
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- [01:15]
Angie Hicks
Hicks, co founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. From roof repair to emergency plumbing and more done well. So the next time you have a home project, leave it to the pros. Get started@angie.com ready to change your life for just $2 a day, Orangetheory Fitness delivers one hour workouts that comb strength and cardio to help you burn fat, build muscle and feel unstoppable. Right now, get a full month of unlimited classes for just $62. Don't wait. This offer ends soon. Visit orangetheory.com or your local studio and start your transformation today. Offer ends January 31, 2026. New members only Premier membership, Performance monitor and monthly billing required. Discount applies to first month only. Other terms apply.
- [01:56]
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- [02:27]
David Rutherford
That'S odoo.com what happens when Covid mandates lead to integrity? Well, under the Biden administration, leading Brigadier General Chris Sage's career was destroyed today on the David Rutherford show. What's up, team? One of the best aspects of doing this show is when I get to provide context to really important stories that seem to be either being pushed off to the side or not giving the time or opportunity that they deserve. And I believe Brigadier General Chris Sage's story is one of the most significant stories that came out of the COVID hypocrisy, craziness that all took place within the United States military. Now, this is all indicative of DEI components of the last administration, as well as some of the scandalous aspects of the Biden auto pen. All right, so I want to get into this. So I'm. I'm very privileged to welcome Brigadier General Chris Sage to the show today, sir. Thank you for coming on, David.
- [03:47]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
It's an honor to be here. It's an honor to speak with another operator, another patriot. And I just want to start out by saying the views that I'm going to express, they are my own, and they do not reflect the views of the Department of War, but it's an honor to serve. I've served for 31 and a half years. I officially retired on January 1st. And we'll get into that part of that as well.
- [04:06]
David Rutherford
Well, one of the things that I found just absolutely unblown away by was the sheer amount of flight hours, especially the 1200 combat hours that you have in just about every conflict we've been in or every. Every area of operation that we've been engaged in for the last 25 years, and combined with also the level of leadership positions that you've held, could you just briefly describe your operational experience and then your leadership experience so the audience has a real solid understanding of not only your commitment to America and your service, but also your commitment to the personnel that you've guided into combat.
- [04:55]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
Well, thanks, David. I've had a very blessed career. As you know, it started out 31 years ago. I went off to pilot training, became a combat fighter pilot in the F15E. And as Providence would have it, that meant I deployed a lot. Seven deployments over Iraq, multiple times, the Balkans, over Serbia and Kosovo. It's been seven months in Afghanistan leading a squadron, and then I was fortunate enough to be the wing commander at an undisclosed location in the Middle east where we were taking the fight to isis, as well as the other negative forces in the region, the Iranian influence, etc. So when in doubt, When I had a choice, David, I chose to deploy. I chose to stay in the cockpit. I stayed, I chose to do what we used to see in Afghanistan, to support that 18 year old outside the wire with a rifle and very thankful to do that throughout my career. Very fortunate to have as many hours as I have combat hours, et cetera. Then when, you know, occasionally they pull you back in, they pull you to the Pentagon. I did an assignment there, a couple assignments at NATO, a couple wonderful staff tours where I was working directly for four star generals, both in the Pentagon and then over here in Europe. Some great leaders that I worked for and learned a lot and they supported me all the way through. So I've been blessed to both lead on the battlefield as well as lead airmen and war fighters in the, on the staff context and the, the administrative context as well.
- [06:25]
David Rutherford
Well, I, you know, it's the thing for me and I'll tell you this man, my, my favorite units to work with by far are, are, was TF160. Right. The. And, and any Air Force pilot whatsoever. Any Air Force unit whatsoever. Absolutely. There was nothing better to know. There was, there was nothing better to know that you had Air Force operators. I love working with PJC tax like you know, in my favorite obvious bases to live on and hang out on our Air Force bases. I think that the Air Force and what a lot of people don't understand is the significant role that the Air Force plays around the world from just recently. You know, the, the incredible operations that took place in Iran and then just the incredible operations we just saw the other night with the raid down in Venezuela. What's your, how would you describe your impression of being in the Air Force and what you learned as a leader from participating in so many different aspects of the GWAD and then the fight against ISIS and even in the modern, modern day battlefields.
- [07:45]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
Well, I think those couple examples that you just gave really point to what I'm about to say. And that's the fact it's a joint fight. It's, it's a combined effort with all the forces that come together to achieve the objective. When I was in Afghanistan, I was fortunate enough to be the commander of the unit that was asked to defend in the air to provide the defensive counter error, really the offensive counter error for the force that went into Abbottabad. So the fact that we were there overhead if needed was something that we were very proud of as a squadron. Fast forward to what we saw in Iran and then what we just saw down in Venezuela. You're exactly right. I mean the Air Force in those cases are the overwatch. They're the asymmetric advantage that went in and took down those SAM sites that made sure that the package was protected. And that's what we do. We can basically fast forward the conflict like we saw in Desert Storm. We can go, we don't have to go through the enemy, we can go over the enemy. We can take out these, the, you know, with dynamic targeting, we can take out real time assets and targets as they emerge on the battlefield. And it's been great to be a part of all that. At the same time, while we must continue to train for the big, you know, the high end fight, whether that's against Russia or whether that's against China. So you know, it's, it's a multifaceted game and I've been very blessed to start out right after the Cold War, right after Desert Storm, kind of to see that piece. And then obviously we went into 20 plus years, the GWAT Global War on terrorism and now we're sort of migrating back towards the high end fight. But it's been, it's been an honor to be a part of it. And like you said, I mean like you said, your experiences living on Air Force bases. My experience is in Afghanistan, Iraq, elsewhere. You know what, what the people I have respect for, besides my peers is sitting across the table for that, that, that soldier that's deployed 5, 6, 7, 8, up to 10 times, you know, spent half of their career, I remember in Afghanistan. I, I talked to a soldier that had spent like nine of his 20 years deployed. So I have ultimate respect for, for the, for the patriots that, that it gave way more than, than most generations.
- [10:01]
David Rutherford
I appreciate that. You know, it's funny, you know, I was in Pakistan for the lead up in the aftermath of that raid and have a bunch of friends that were there and you know, they always speak of that ideal that it's about the multiple units. It's the collective effort of a lot of motivated people to get the job done that needs to be done. And you know, after so many hours in the air and leading, you know, an air wing and also, you know, commands, you know, I, I've always heard that, you know, officers that are climbing those ranks and getting to those next levels, it's hard because you have to move into the administrative aspects of the leadership roles at some point, right. You have to let go of that operational focus and duty and then you move up. Was, was the idea of moving towards a Brigadier General and, and was that something that you had always aspired. How long did you want to stay in and continue in a command role?
- [11:09]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
Well, I'm very fortunate, David, to come from a family that's fought in every conflict since the Civil War. Actually, I had great grandfathers on both sides of the Civil War. And then fast forward to World War I, then World War II. I had one grandfather that was flying B25s in China, Burma, India against the Japanese, another grandfather that was on a battleship in the Pacific that was hit twice with kamikazes. And I actually have, I should have brought it for the video. I have a piece of the kamikaze aircraft, the Rising sun that he, that he got after the attack. And it's been passed down to our family ever since. So I come from an enlisted family, very fortunate to go to college. My parents pushed me off to the Air Force Academy, raised me well, and then from there I, I stumbled in to the officer corps, went to pilot training, and then I was off to the races. But you know, I, I'm very fortunate. The one thing I was never fighting for, to become a general officer, I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know any general officers came from a very blue, blue collar family, working class family, which is, which was great. That's, that's why I am who I am today. What I will say is, as I went through, you know, you kind of get the itch, you get the bug, you know what that feels like to, to want to be there on the battlefield, you know, shoulder to shoulder with your fellow war fighters. So that's all I ever fought for. So what that meant was I was so blessed and so fortunate when I became a squadron commander, which unlike in the Navy or in the army, the first time that we truly lead a unit is as a lieutenant colonel in OH5 as a squadron commander. So I was so fortunate to become the commander of a operational squadron, which is what took me to Afghanistan. Then fast forward a few years later, I became the op, the operations group commander. So that's now the first, the Junior oh six command. I fought to be the, I basically fought for a operational command and I was fortunate enough to get it. Same for Wing Command, an operational wing command in North Carolina called Seymour Johnson Air Force Base, not for far from Fort Bragg in Vietnam. And then obviously in the deployed setting in an undisclosed location was the pinnacle to make rank, became a one star. And then I was asked to deploy again to lead that combat wing. So, you know, the credentials, my career, my experience is what got Me there some wonderful leaders that taught me along the way, and I sort of stumbled into becoming a general officer, but in the, the premier location right there in the Middle east, we're fighting against isis, fighting against Iran, and also all the other positives, we were helping Israel come into ascent. We were training with the Jordanians, the French, the Egyptians down in Bright Star. So it was the pinnacle of commands from 2021 to 2022.
- [13:59]
David Rutherford
And, and you know that my point that I hope everybody who's listening is, is beginning to understand is that, you know, what you have here with, with General Sages, a man that was focused and dedicated to mastering his craft, not only operationally in that cockpit, but then also to master his leadership craft and leading these elite groups to really be on the tip of the spear or above the tip of the spear, so to speak, in order to provide that critical oversight, if you will, for a battlefield perspective and battlefield changes. Nobody wins wars unless you, you command the air. And you know, to, to. I want you to understand that this man has done everything asked of him and more, and that's why he continued to make rank and gain more responsibility as a leader of, of these different units. And so I just wanted to make that very clear for this first part of the, of the interview. All right, now we're going to pivot a little bit, Chris, and, and what I'd love for you to do is just walk through that Covid deployment where all of this began, and try and give us, you know, a, a synopsis of, of your leadership style on the ground in the middle while conducting operations. When these, this Covid stuff started to just penetrate into being an inhibitive part of making wartime decisions. Right? That, that is the key that people have to understand is when you're in, in combat and you're in that environment, you need to make decisions one, that keep you operational, two that keep morale high, and three, that keep, you know, the, your personnel ready to, to get on the battlefield at every second. So if you could just lay all that out for us, give us that, that subcontact.
- [16:06]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
Absolutely, David. You know, once again, it was, it was an honor to be selected for that command. So as you, as you know, a few months prior to that, I was able to hire a fantastic command chief, a Command Master. Command Master Sergeant, Chief Master Sergeant for the command Chief Milligan and I, we basically started to connect about three or four months prior, sort of map out our strategy, map out our sort of leadership approach. We were, we were tied at the hip with the same Focus and the same desire to get the mission accomplished. So you kind of hit on a few of the principles that I adopted that I've always used. Number one, we are going to aggressively accomplish the mission. Number two, we're going to do whatever it takes to take care of the war fighters under our command. And number three, especially, as we saw that we were about to step into this Covid environment, it was used, common sense. So when we showed up in this deployed environment, it was hot and heavy with combat operations, kinetic operations against isis, against other entities in the theater, under all in front of the backdrop of COVID So Covid was raging. It was. It had already peaked in the US and was coming back down, but in the Middle east, it was delayed. So it was just spiking when we got there. So we just decided as a command team that we're going to. We're going to do what makes sense. We're going to. We're going make smart decisions, but we have to keep the mission going. No one gave us a pass. The president, my command, the Secretary of Defense, or the commanders over top of me, no one said, hey, you get a pass on. On delivering, you know, the mission, and basically on the delivery on the battlefield. So we stayed focused, we stayed laser focused on executing the mission. So what that meant was when I first took command, I had to sort of do what it took to sort of get all of the airmen on board. The first thing that I did, knowing that there were airmen that were already affected by Covid, I asked my. My medical team, hey, I like to go see the COVID individuals that are affected, the airmen that are affected by Covid. So they took me to an isolation tent. They told me, hey, sir, not sure this is a good idea, but, you know, put on the gloves. We need you. We want you to put a mask on. We want you to put all the protective clothing on. I'm like, okay, I just want to go see the airmen. I think you. You just got done telling us that they're vaccinated. You know, there's no way that I. If they're vaccinated, there's no way I can get the vaccine or I can get the, the virus, etc. So anyway, we go in there, we see the. The airmen. I shake their hands. They. They. They really appreciated that, that we hadn't forgot about them. However, when we walked up to the tent, David, I was shocked to see that there was barbed wire around the isolation tent. And I asked the question, like, why. Why are we. Why is there A barbed wire here. They're like, well, sir, we have to sort of, you know, help protect the area. We don't want people wandering into the tent. We don't want them wandering out. I'm like, look, they are sick airmen. They're patients. They're not prisoners. So I gave a very kind but direct order that we're going to tear down the, the barbed wire. That's just one example, there's many other. So we just started making command decisions, decisive, courageous decisions, just like you do anywhere else. The vast majority of the people were completely on board with this. And the re. The reason I know this is about, about two months into the deployment, we did an informal survey. We used survey monkey, I think. And 73% of the people came back with they felt like their morale was either high or very high. And that just gave us a sense that we're making all the right decisions, we are doing everything we can. When I first showed up, there was a period there where they also, the command shut down all the gyms, or at least the medical people recommended that. And so one of the decisions I made as well was we're going to open the gyms back up because these CDC recommendations were designed for the United States, not for a deployed setting where we're isolated. By the way, we have eight people, eight airmen in some of these, some of these tents. So, you know, they're going to make, you know, the options are they go to the gym after, after work or they sit in their bunk and, you know, and spread the virus. I would rather have healthy, healthy airmen. And we know now, and we even knew then common sense that going to the gym made sense. I pushed for vitamin packs because I'm reading these peer reviewed studies and the medical professionals were pushing back on me there because that wasn't in, you know, the Air Force or CDC guidelines. And then one other quick story. Well, two really. One, there was a directive that came down that said Covid is so bad we need to wear masks outside, which as we know is, is ridiculous. Now the masks weren't working to begin with, but even then I signed out an order, an operational directive that said when our airmen are working under the jets outside, or any, any hazardous environment, but definitely under the Jets, 110 degree heat in the summer in the Middle east, they're not going to wear masks, they're going to pass out or a mask is going to get sucked down, an intake of a jet, etc. So I signed an order to eliminate that. And then the other one that I was attacked for was we had 800 airmen coming in off of aircraft. They had all been tested before they took off in the United States. 95% of them were vaccinated and the medical professionals had set up a another COVID test on the in processing line. One guy popped positive. He had no symptoms. So you know, it could have very likely been a false positive. So I basically said hey, you know, operational decision. We were making decisions like this. I said we're going to stop testing. They've already been tested. We have other ways of testing. We have the lowest numbers in the or. And I did that and I got hammered for that in the IG Report Investigative Report.
- [22:03]
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- [23:13]
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- [24:14]
Angie Hicks
Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty. Which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist, it's efficacious, you're going to get results and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful Beauty confidence is beautiful. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know, all your jobs will be done well, from roof repair to emergency plumbing and more done well. So the next time you have a home project, leave it to the pros. Get started@angie.com I, you know, I obviously.
- [25:06]
David Rutherford
I, you know, when you, I had a background and you know, I was a medic and I'd gone through biological weapons stuff and all that training and it all seems so silly to me right at first because, you know, like you said, those peer reviewed studies started coming out immediately that out, you know, exercise, vitamin D, right, Supplements, you know, don't even get me started on Ivermectin and all the other stuff that you, you know, people were using that were beneficial. But you saw there was a narrative affiliated with all of how they were pushing what they were pushing. And then the changes as, as, you know, there'd be pushback with logic or facts, then they'd shift the narrative or shift the instructions. And you know, I thought, you know, Fauci one day says one thing, the next thing he says another. And you could very easily tell that this was politically being politically driven where I didn't expect it really to go to the place it was, was with the shots and what had taken place and that type of mentality within the military. Now don't get me wrong, I've got probably eight, you know, anthrax shots that in my, in my shoulder when I was, you know, a lowly E4, you know, like, yeah, sure, put it in. And then I'm jabbing my, my teammates, you know, never pushing back on that.
- [26:29]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
Which I probably should.
- [26:30]
David Rutherford
But, but when you're, you're in that you just want to stay operational. You have a real commitment to just accept any order that comes down. What I found remarkable is that you noticed all this, and because of that commitment to operational relevance or operational pace. All right, your op tempo was so aggressive that you knew any of those things would be a distraction. And so you said, all right, I'm going to put Ops above what seems to be inconsistency in how they're pressing and distributing these types of these orders or these, you know, whatever, guidelines, CDC guidelines, I thought. I think that's one of the most remarkable aspects of it because there's thousands of stories about commanders and people in leadership roles that just rolled over and basically stopped operations in many areas around, around the country and around the world too. So I think that's a critical thing to pay attention to with, with your story. Okay. When did you first receive notice? And if you could, like, guide us through this system of how it works, like when some like, and in your case specifically, somebody commits the complaints, where the complaint goes, how the review happens, then how it gets adjudicated and bring us to the process where you're. You essentially were realized you're in this bigger, more political fight.
- [28:07]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
Absolutely. Well, the IG system, you know, has been around since the, the founding of our military, and it does serve a proper place to make sure that there's not fraud, waste and abuse in our military. The, the challenge, David, is that it can be weaponized. Especially in the last couple of years, it was weaponized in a way that plays out almost like textbook in my case. So what happened was an individual, a high ranking individual in my base, a senior officer that, you know, lower rank than me, but a senior officer that, that definitely knew better, filed a complaint. He has the right to do that. He didn't take it up the chain of command. He didn't. He didn't raise it to me. He didn't raise it to his commander. He filed an IG complaint, Seven allegations against me. And he just went through the base IG to file the complaint that then got highlighted or sent up the chain of command, which is fine. This happens when you're in leadership. You know, you kind of live in a glass house. You know, people aren't always going to agree with you and that I'm completely comfortable with that. You make the best decisions you can for the mission and for the airmen and for the war fighters, and you let the chips fall where they may. This was not about integrity. This was about decisions that I made command decisions that I made. So it goes to the ig, they, it goes up to Wash, to Washington, they start looking at it. The way that it works, at least it used to work, is they would effectively investigate you without you even know that you. Without you knowing that you've been charged. I, I actually have a little bit of a problem with that, and I think that's going to change here soon because. But the good news in my case was the initial seven allegations against me, fraud, waste and abuse, times six, plus hostile work environment, were all dismissed immediately. Dismissed by an individual that filed them under SecDef's new SEC war's new policy that's called no more walking on eggshells. This individual most likely would have been held accountable because he willingly filed false allegations against me. But that's neither here nor there. We move forward. And then I was notified about a month later that, hey, you were investigated, all the allegations were dismissed. I was thankful to hear that. But then this is, this is when the other, the other shoe dropped, if you will. I was told that the investigator heard from a few people that did not like my command decisions and is concerned and is now launching a new investigation on his own, which, which dealt with command climate, now command climate, but also with, you know, Covid decision making, whether I trusted the, the airmen under me, etc. But Covid was a very, very big part of it. And we'll talk about why. We know it was a big part of it, not only because of common sense, but also because of a report that came out later. So this IG investigation is supposed to. The intent is they quickly investigate, they find the facts, they give those facts to my command chain, then the command chain can do with that information what they want. Well, this investigation started in December and it wasn't until the following November that they wrapped it up. Well, my command tour was from July to July, so it started halfway through command, sir.
- [31:26]
David Rutherford
What years. Just to give everybody context of when this was taking place.
- [31:31]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
Absolutely. So I showed up in July of 21, during COVID by the way, during the Afghanistan withdrawal. We were one of the bases supporting it from, from a distance. We sent F15s overhead. You know, they showed General Donahue as the last American to leave the ground. But it was actually one of our strike Eagles was the last American to leave, to leave, leave the airspace, as we talked about.
- [31:57]
David Rutherford
But nothing like a good photo op, right?
- [32:01]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
Exactly. Our rescue forces, to your point, our rescue forces were in Pakistan ready to support if needed. We. I had rescue forces underneath of me, C130s and PJs and helicopters. So very, very intense period of time. And, but sorry, David, repeat that question again. You were asking me specifically the time.
- [32:23]
David Rutherford
Frames when this was taking place, like when, when the complaints were going, when the next one took place so people can get that timeline better in their heads.
- [32:34]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
And that, that's critical because based on what I just said, so the complaint was filed in December of 2021 for, and the, the, the investigator decided to frame it for those first six months. So it was the six months that were the most intense from a kinetic perspective, from a Covid perspective, from an ops tempo perspective, the most intense period probably in a five or ten year period at that base because of Afghanistan, everything else that was going on, et cetera. Here's. But I have to interject this important point. This investigator now ran the investigation for 11 months, completely blowing out of water the timeline that they're supposed to meet. He did the entire investigation, David, from his air conditioned office in the Pentagon on the phone, never came and visited, never saw the operational environment, never talked to anybody face to face, never saw what the isolation tent looked like with barbed wire or the other conditions we were operating under in making normal command decisions, like any combat commander would do one after another to get the mission done. And here's the important thing. In his final report, never once did anybody complain that I yelled, raised my voice, cussed through anything, demeaned anybody. It was all framed from a perspective of the oppressed. The oppressed versus the oppressor. So me versus the people under me, that, that with leading questions, said things like, you know, he had to ask them multiple times, so do you think he trusted you? And then the answer would be, well, based on the fact that he didn't, he went a different direction from what I recommended. I guess maybe he didn't trust me. So it's all about feelings. It was all about trust. It was all about command decisions that were being made along the way. After 11 months, we had all redeployed. There was no right, there was no wrongs to be righted. The only, the only effect was a black mark, obviously on my record. So 11 months later I'm, I'm redeployed back to Belgium, stationed at NATO headquarters, and I find out that the report is final and that they substantiated an allegation against me for negative command climate. Well, I was, it didn't make any sense to me or even my many of the peers, my command chief, many of the commanders that Were very supportive of my leadership style. This report now goes to your chain of command, which is what it's supposed to do. Although it should have happened six months prior. I'd never met my chain of command before because I just got back to NATO. It was a three star general fighter pilot, and then his boss was a four star general at United States Air Forces in Europe. They both looked at this report, looked at the situation. They had also deployed in their career, they were also combat aviators. And they made a determination that based on the circumstances and all the evidence that they saw, they took no command action against me. And a lot of times in the IG system, it's the command that uses it to, to bludgeon people, right? In my case, they took no action against me and said that my actions were appropriate based on the circumstances in the environment in which I was operating. So that gave me some, this was the first time after a year I had some level of encouragement that they took no command action against me. So the IG investigation's over. My command said, we don't believe this. By the way, my commander at the time also kind of did his little mini investigation. No fire, no smoke. He left me in command. He could have fired me on day one. He told me at the end of my tour when, when he came to my change of command, you know, he gave me the obligatory medal, said nice things about me, gave me great paperwork, and said, hey, if there was something going on at this base, because people did an amazing job of hiding it. Because he visited like six times after the investigation broke, he sent 1 stars, 2 stars, colonels, senior enlisted, they all reported back to him that the environment was great, the morale was great. But this, this woke investigator decided to just run with this narrative. And, and once they, once they think, you know, once they realize that if they kind of create a narrative and then reinforce that narrative, they can get their scalp and then that's what they shoot for. One quick tidbit and I'll stop filibustering. One of the things that the regulations require is that the investigator has to investigate the witnesses that I put forward. So that way they can see both sides of the story. I pushed forward 29 people. He did not investigate or interview a single one of them, except for four that he had previously investigated, but he ignored the remaining. Every single one of my witnesses. So 25 total that I put forward that he had not investigated yet and basically said he didn't have time and they were just character witnesses when that was not the truth. He ignored every single enlisted member that I recommended, every single master sergeant, senior Master Sergeant in chief. They were in every meeting. They're called senior leader advisors for a reason. They were part of every decision. And he ignored everyone, which just shows the level of respect he has for war fighters and for our enlisted force.
- [38:00]
David Rutherford
It's remarkable. I mean, almost every time I hear about these investigations, in particular over the last, you know, 16, 17 years, right. As, as, you know, as the appropriate term, the WOKE leaders are infused in, in, in the judicial aspect of, of the military that are moving into positions because, you know, real warfares, real leaders have timed out. You know, they've got the nine deployments and they haven't seen their families in 20 years. And so they bail and all those other people stay in and they, they move up. But in those particular ranks, like there seemed to be this growing group of people that said, I can make rank by, by pointing towards people that are against this core underlining kind of WOKE policy that seemed to percolate and grow after probably around 2013, 14, I think is really where I saw it start exploding. All right, so you've, you've, everybody who's in a significant role of leadership has basically said, all right, General Sage, you're dialed in, you're good, don't worry about it. So did you think it was over and then what brought it to your attention that this was going to actually affect your long term standing as, as a leader in the Air Force?
- [39:29]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
Well, David, we took a sigh of relief and my command team at the time, my new command team said, hey, just keep doing a great job. They, they put me in some very important positions at Naito, you know, where I was pushing U.S. policy. And, and we know, we're thinking this is going to start trending positive. The other important piece to recommend to, to recognize here is the fact that even. Sorry. While I was deployed during this investigation, I found out that I made it onto the two star promotion list based on my previous performance and the recommendations by my, by my command chain going into that deployment. The same ones that picked me for that deployment, so very fortunate to be on the two star promotion list. Well, coming out the backside of that investigation, I was told your promotion is now being paused. Why the senior leaders, take a look at it. And my senior leaders, they meant, they didn't mean military. They met the civilians under the last administration. So this is where even, this is where we started to get slightly nervous because we knew that by the way, the investigator that I, that I mentioned, not a Military person, not an officer, a civilian, a GS 13, 14 that once again had never deployed into an environment like we had been in, knew nothing about the combat operations, etc. So that's an important point. But yes, we're, we're feeling strong. We're feeling like, hey, you know, we can, we can still get around this. We just keep, we just power through this. It's all going to work out. My command chain was very, very encouraging. Then we find out that they paused my promotion. By statute, they can only pause it for six months or they have to tell me why. One of the many legal errors. There are nine legal errors or statutory errors or procedural errors in my case. This is one of them. The, the Secretary of the Air Force and his team at the time never notified me at the six month point. Ned didn't notify me at the one year point, at the 18 month point. It was almost two years before out of the blue, I'm told the Secretary of the Air Force has decided that he's going to recommend that you get stripped off the promotion list.
- [41:42]
David Rutherford
Oh my God.
- [41:43]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
We were not expecting this, of course. And the chain of command, my military chain of command felt horrible. They said there's nothing they can do. They'll, they'll put in a good word for me, they'll write a letter, which they did. And so then the Secretary of the Air Force under the last administration recommended to Lloyd Austin, who then recommended to the White House to strip me off the list. This whole process at this point had been going on for about a year and a half and in a matter of about 10 days, they stripped me off the promotion list. So when they want to act fast, they can act fast. When they want to, when they want to turn a, you know, when they put out an edict that we're going to do a down day on extremism, they can do it fast. When, when you're fighting for justice, they can slow roll you for years for, and that's part of the strategy is to wait you out. To wait you out. So, so very quickly I find out I'm stripped off the two star list. You know, a gut punch, that's fine, I'll still, you know, I just want to clear my name. So we kind of turned the, the focus back on what's the next step. I was told just be patient, keep coloring within the lines, keep following the rules and let you know, wait till the new administration gets in place and then take your case, you know, appeal this all the way up the chain and which is what we did. I was notified in September that now that everyone's been confirmed in the new administration, they're going to set up a new board called a Board of Corrections for Military Records that are going to take a look at all of the injustices done over the last couple of years. And they called me and said we think you should apply to this board. So this was in. This was kind of the. The end of the road. This is the final step. After the substantiated allegation, the appeal was turned down, the stripped off the two star list. But we're like okay, we have all our facts, we have all of our stuff in a sock. I had a great defense attorney at the time who's since retired. We put everything together and we submitted in September to this board and two months later it was expedited. Normally these boards take a year. It was expedited and we found out that we won. I received a memoir with a 12 page document. A majority of the board found that this IG investigation against me was unfounded, was purposely slanted against me because of my views on Covid and because of the actions I took about COVID And that resulted partially but enough 51% of of the evidence showed this. So they threw out the IG investigation. They had my record or they were recommending my record be expunged. I get put back on the promotion list and they extend my mandatory retirement date. And David, the last thing that I'll say is we, we celebrated for about five minutes because then the next. By the way this. They communicate this to you nowadays through email? No phone calls? No. No civilian leader called me? No. You know the military chain of command was kept out of the loop. So I receive an email. The second email says oh by the way, the Assistant Secretary of the Air Force, a political appointee who had just been confirmed has looked at the evidence in the last four days, four business days and has decided that he disagrees with the board that studied your case for two months. And he's overturned the board decision even though the 7 May memo from the SEC DEF's office, SEC War's office said that this board has broad discretion to right the wrongs of the last four years.
- [45:21]
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- [49:05]
David Rutherford
I think all of this is just proof that that rot that's still inside the Pentagon, that's still inside the government is still there. And they're still incredibly active. And a lot of them, I'm sure I hear it all the time from friends that are in, in, you know, in these organizations, whether it's at the agency or dod and they're, they're fighting every day against these people who have seemed to slip through the, the cracks of, of, of Secretary Hegseth's, you know, decision that we're getting rid of all these people that were before I got a real short question first, before I pivot to the, the final analysis from you is how many other flag officers were denied promotion under the last administration? Do you know that number?
- [49:55]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
I don't know that they actually, under the last administration, they try to keep this. In fact, they told me, well, you shouldn't even have real, you shouldn't even have known you were promoted. I'm like, well, my, my chain of command notified me that I was on the list, so they tried to hide it from me. So there are other people that were probably stripped off the list and they don't even realize it. Thankfully, I knew that they were, that they were going after me because I was on the list and then they moved to remove me from the list. So I don't know. What I do know, David, my attorney has represented or been involved or at least tangential to over 200 of these BCMR cases and only two of them have ever been overturned in his experience. But Check this out, David. Those two that were overturned were in the favor. In the favor of the person. In other words, they lost at the board. And then the, the senior leaders overturned it in their favor. This is the first time in years and hundreds of cases we've seen a case that was overturned against the individual, especially when the board was given broad discretion. In other words, in this case, the Air Force and the Department of War for some reason just failed to take the win that was handed to them. That's just the craziest part of this whole case.
- [51:13]
David Rutherford
It is.
- [51:13]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
You know, you brought up a great point, though, that I think I, I would like to emphasize. It's, you know, the, the senior leaders, I mean, when I listen to what Secretary of War says about no more walking on eggshells, he says all the right things. There's the undersecretary of the Air Force, Matt Lohmeyer, knows what it's like to be persecuted under the last administration. The same secretary there. So, so the thing is though, when you look at the lawyers who are advising them, them, it's the same lawyers that were there four years ago, five years ago, exactly the same. You can, you can pull up their bio. One is named Shannon McGuire, another one is Julia Mutaking. These two individuals were the ones advising the last secretary when they were going after me. They were specifically advising the last secretary of the Air Force to strip me off the two star list, to not leave me on the two star list. When you look in the law, the law says that or the regulations say that if the command chain takes no action against the individual, then it basically infers that, that you should not strip someone off the promotion list because the command chain gets a vote. But these were the same attorneys recommending. So I'm fighting them then and now I'm fighting them again. And when, when you look at what Mr. Anderson did, he's a political appointee that made this decision. He made it so fast, two months for the board to look at it, four business days, he overturned it. I guarantee you, when you look at that letter, he didn't write the letter. It's extremely, you know, it's written with legalese. So this same group of obstructionists, I call them deck furniture. You know, they're deck furniture on the Titanic and they just keep getting shuffled around the Pentagon. And they're the obstructionist class that is yet to be cleaned out. Congressman Andy Biggs put out a great quote at Amfest a few weeks ago. It's, it's a viral video where he said The Secretary of War needs to clear out all of the second and third tier obstructionists that are still hiding in the Pentagon. And he is 100 correct.
- [53:16]
David Rutherford
That is, I concur in every way, shape or form. That's the only way we're going to get rid of this. Because in my estimation, you're a guy that wants to be in the fight. You have been in the fight. You know how to fight, you know how to lead others in the fight. Why the hell would we not want you to continue in that fight? Especially as things are ramping up all over the world right now? You want experience of your caliber in those leadership positions when the most aggressive things begin to take place. And it's just, it's, it's proof positive that the rot is still there. Right. All right, last question. What do you, what, what, what would you like to see happen and who are the people that can make those decisions to get you back in. Right, because you, you're now since retired. To be able to reinstate you and then get you that second star and then go on with your career, what, what is the sequence that needs to happen in a couple minutes there?
- [54:23]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
Well, thanks, David. First of all, you know, I'm retired now and there, there's, there is a weight that sort of lifted off a few days ago, and that has allowed me to really become laser focused on helping the other hundreds, if not thousands of war fighters that are going through a similar situation. You know, they estimate 8,000 or they know 8,000 people were kicked out for refusing to take the shot. Another 70 to 80,000 were either coerced out or stepped away because they didn't want to go through the pain. So those tens of thousands of people that are considering coming back in, by the way, they have to go through the exact same process I did through a BCMR, a board of correction for military records under the 7 May guidance. They're looking at this and they're, they're asking themselves, do I really want to do this? Do I really want to put myself through this? Now, I'm very fortunate, David. You know, you know, as a senior officer, very blessed. I, I could afford, I had a great chain of command that put me in a great job and sort of took care of me financially. I was able to afford to hang out and to fight this. Tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, but it's worth it. Not just for me, but for all of these young airmen and soldiers, sailors and Marines that reach out to me on social media and email and Call me and say, sir, I, I can't believe this is happening. You know, let me tell you my story and I'm happy to listen. So I will begin to amplify their messages because I'm realizing over the last couple of months, it's not just me and it is because of the rot. I believe Secretary of War gets it. I believe the Secretary of the Air Force and the undersecretary get it, and I believe the President of the United States gets it. Because when I hear what he says, what he puts out, he is all about meritocracy, he is all about war fighters.
- [56:08]
David Rutherford
He.
- [56:09]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
He's our biggest supporter. You know, we serve the Constitution, we defend the Constitution. It doesn't matter who the President is. But yet it's encouraging to hear a president say that he has our back and our Secretary of War has our back. So to answer your question, that we're. I'm at the point now where if, if I would love to keep serving, my family feels called to serve. We feel like God has put that on our heart. The only person that can help me at this point is the President of the United States. The Commander in Chief, if he speaks, it will happen. The chairman of the Joint Chiefs had retired and they brought him back in the rank. I mean, that's fine. If they, if they want to promote me, give me, you know, backdate that, that's fine. I would just like to keep serving. Here's a great way that I could serve every other service but the United States Air Force has designated a point person to help re. Integrate the Arab. The, the war fighters that were kicked out because of coveted. Except for the Air Force. The Air Force is just letting the system work and the system ain't working. Of those 8,000 war fighters that were kicked out, the last estimate I heard about a week ago was less than 100 have come back in the process is so painful that. And so it's being drug out. People are just not doing it. So we're going to basically go into the future. The deadline is either in March or April that the, that the Pentagon has set. We're going to go, we're going to blow through that with maybe less than a hundred people of the 8,000. So I'm happy to lead that effort. I'm happy to leave lead airmen in the next conflict. I'm happy to do whatever it takes. Wherever God calls me to serve and wherever our leadership would like to put me, it's up to the President, United States, and we've been trying to Reach out. My wife, she's an attorney and a mother of five. We've been married for almost 30 years. She wrote an appeal to the President recently that we we put out on social media. My social media is @SageIdeas so @s a g e ideas ideas. And you can see all the content and the appeals that we put out there. So if we can get the President's attention, that that would be our goal here, not only for my case, but to help put the pressure on the system. And he's got to do what Congressman Bix said. They have to remove the second and third tier obstructionists because it's called malicious compliance. They slow roll every decision. And even though we're only one year into this administration, you can already tell they're waiting out this president.
- [58:42]
David Rutherford
Brigadier General Chris Sage, thank you so much not only for your service and throughout so many incredible years of courage and honor, but also of your courage and honor with which you're fighting this battle as well too. I'm just really grateful that you would come on and I just hope God blesses you in this endeavor and you get what you deserve and you continue not only as a leader in our military, but as a leader to Americans in general. Thank you so much, sir. God bless you.
- [59:17]
Brigadier General Chris Sage
God bless you, David. Thank you.
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