Dr. Robert Malone: RFK Jr’s Battle In Washington, Trump’s Base & HHS Chaos | Ep. 14 - Part 1

Summary

Summary of "The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show" Episode: Dr. Robert Malone: RFK Jr’s Battle In Washington, Trump’s Base & HHS Chaos | Ep. 14 - Part 1
Release Date: May 21, 2025
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts

In this episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, host David Rutherford engages in a deep and insightful conversation with Dr. Robert Malone, a distinguished scientist and one of the pioneers of mRNA technology. The discussion navigates through a complex landscape of healthcare corruption, governmental restructuring, media influence, and the psychological mechanisms shaping public opinion. Below is a detailed summary structured into key sections, capturing the essence of their dialogue, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. Introduction to Dr. Robert Malone and Current Events

[02:29]

David Rutherford begins by welcoming Dr. Robert Malone to the show, highlighting Malone's status as a "hero" and setting the stage for a discussion on recent significant events. The focal point is RFK Jr.'s intense testimony before Congress and the Senate, which led to substantial restructuring within the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), including a 25% staff reduction and the consolidation of divisions from 28 to 15.

Notable Quote:

“Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was dropping bombs in front of Congress and the Senate.” — David Rutherford [02:29]

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2. Corruption Within the American Healthcare and Media Systems

[03:59]

Dr. Malone delves into the pervasive corruption that has seeped into American healthcare and media, attributing it to what he describes as the "industrial bio defense, biomedical, academic, military complex." This complex has intertwined itself with various sectors, including insurance agencies, hospital chains, health management organizations, academic journals, and government entities, particularly on Capitol Hill.

Key Points:

• Pharmaceutical industry money significantly influences American elections and governance.
• Corporate media outlets like The Washington Post, The New York Times, and CNN receive substantial funding from the pharmaceutical sector, leading to biased reporting.
• The infiltration of pharmaceutical money affects not just advertising but also content creation, leading to a lack of objectivity.

Notable Quote:

“If you’re receiving a large fraction of your revenue from an industry that's going to bias how you cover that industry. And that's just, that's normal human behavior.” — Dr. Robert Malone [05:20]

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3. Restructuring and Chaos Within HHS

[11:55]

The conversation shifts to the recent reductions within HHS. Dr. Malone criticizes the 20% reduction in force (RIFF), comparing it unfavorably to past administrations, and argues that these cuts have not restored HHS to its pre-COVID state but have instead exacerbated inefficiencies and chaos within the department.

Key Points:

• Reduction in staffing has led to confusion over new organizational structures and responsibilities.
• Political appointees face significant hurdles in being confirmed by an obstructive Senate, impeding the establishment of effective leadership.
• The ongoing budget and staffing escalations have not translated into improved health outcomes; in fact, life expectancy continues to decline.

Notable Quote:

“These reduction in force that has been put in place is just not even returning it to where it was at the start of the COVID crisis.” — Dr. Robert Malone [11:55]

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4. Mismanagement of the COVID-19 Pandemic

[13:07]

Dr. Malone openly criticizes the Department of Health and Human Services for its handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, labeling it as "beyond mismanagement" and suggesting possibilities ranging from negligence to intentional actions akin to bioweapons.

Key Points:

• HHS's response to COVID-19 has been fundamentally flawed, leading to widespread health crises.
• There is a lack of accountability and transparency in addressing the pandemic's fallout.
• The economic and social repercussions of mismanagement have had long-term detrimental effects on American society.

Notable Quote:

“I don't think anybody at all objective can conclude that HHS did a good job during the COVID crisis.” — Dr. Robert Malone [13:07]

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5. Media Denialism and Propaganda

[18:08]

Addressing the role of media, Dr. Malone asserts that mainstream outlets are in denial about the adverse effects of vaccines despite overwhelming evidence from thousands of peer-reviewed studies. He accuses corporate media of perpetuating propaganda to protect pharmaceutical interests.

Key Points:

• Mainstream media dismisses reports and studies that contradict the pharmaceutical industry's narrative.
• The influence of pharmaceutical funding leads to censorship and the suppression of dissenting voices within media platforms.
• Social media and messaging platforms amplify this denialism, making it difficult for alternative viewpoints to gain traction.

Notable Quote:

“The press is like, no, no, no, no, I can't hear that. And it all comes down... corporate media is significantly compromised.” — Dr. Robert Malone [18:55]

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6. RFK Jr.'s Struggle and HHS Leadership

[24:09]

The discussion turns to RFK Jr.'s (Bobby Kennedy) efforts to reform HHS amidst intense resistance. Dr. Malone praises Kennedy's resilience and strategic leadership in the face of overwhelming opposition from both Democrats and entrenched industry interests.

Key Points:

• RFK Jr. is battling against substantial institutional inertia and pharmaceutical lobbying.
• Specific instances of Congressional opposition are highlighted, showcasing the challenges faced in pushing through reforms.
• Dr. Malone emphasizes the importance of Kennedy's role in steering HHS towards greater transparency and accountability.

Notable Quote:

“Secretary Kennedy has come back rather forcefully... he must be getting training from Jack Posavec or somebody because he's... not tolerating these propaganda lines and misrepresentations.” — Dr. Robert Malone [24:15]

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7. Mass Formation Psychosis and Public Manipulation

[36:02]

A significant portion of the interview explores the concept of mass formation psychosis—a psychological phenomenon where collective narratives and propaganda manipulate public consciousness and behavior. Dr. Malone connects this to historical examples and current societal fragmentation.

Key Points:

• Mass formation psychosis is likened to the "madness of crowds," a concept with roots in psychological theory.
• This phenomenon exploits social fragmentation and hyperinflation to destabilize societies, drawing parallels to the rise of National Socialism during the Weimar Republic.
• The fragmented "splinternet" exacerbates this by creating echo chambers, making it difficult for dissenting opinions to break through.

Notable Quote:

“It's mass formation, the... the Matthias decimate kind of 21st century extension... madness of crowds.” — Dr. Robert Malone [45:15]

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8. Splinternet and Information Fragmentation

[48:29]

Dr. Malone discusses the "splinternet," a term describing the fragmentation of the internet into isolated networks that reinforce existing beliefs and limit exposure to diverse perspectives. This digital segregation contributes to the illusion of majority support for minority opinions within isolated communities.

Key Points:

• The splinternet leads to self-segregated online communities, reinforcing echo chambers.
• Major internet nodes like Google and social media platforms play a critical role in maintaining this fragmentation.
• Efforts by regulatory bodies, such as the European Union's digital restrictions, further entrench this divide by imposing speech limitations.

Notable Quote:

“Because the base... think they represent a majority opinion... splinter net and because of things like small rooming... being just in the same echo chamber.” — Dr. Robert Malone [55:16]

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9. Future of Health Policy and Dr. Malone's Involvement

[63:25]

When probed about potential roles in advising RFK Jr. or contributing to governmental reforms, Dr. Malone expresses reluctance to assume administrative positions. Instead, he offers his expertise as a consultant and subject matter expert, focusing on policy recommendations and structural reforms.

Key Points:

• Dr. Malone emphasizes the complexity and entrenched interests within federal bureaucracy that make administrative roles challenging.
• He proposes rethinking the foundational structures of federal R&D enterprises, particularly those influenced by historical figures like Vannevar Bush.
• Dr. Malone is open to providing independent assessments and serving as a sounding board for policy advisors.

Notable Quote:

“If he had made that call and if I was in the progress of being vetted for something like that, I would have to deny it. Because that's the rules in the Trump administration.” — Dr. Robert Malone [63:25]

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10. Pandemic Treaty and International Health Regulations

[69:56]

Towards the end of the discussion, Dr. Malone touches upon the ongoing efforts to pass a pandemic treaty and modifications to International Health Regulations. He expresses concerns over the accelerated and opaque processes used to implement these agreements, which he views as potential overreach by global health authorities.

Key Points:

• The pandemic treaty is being pushed through with minimal transparency and against standard protocols.
• Dr. Malone criticizes the leadership of figures like Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus for circumventing established rules.
• He warns of the implications such treaties could have on national sovereignty and public health policies.

Notable Quote:

“Tedros seems to be a true believer in not being encumbered by what has been.” — Dr. Robert Malone [70:26]

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11. Conclusion and Tease for Part Two

[75:55]

David Rutherford wraps up the episode by commending Dr. Malone's expertise and contributions. He hints at an upcoming second part of the interview, which will delve deeper into topics like bioweapons research, bioweapons proliferation, and strategic recommendations for the United States.

Notable Quote:

“I understand it was a lot to process, but stand by to stand by because part two is coming up.” — David Rutherford [72:00]

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides a comprehensive look into the intersections of healthcare policy, media influence, governmental restructuring, and psychological manipulation. Dr. Robert Malone offers a critical perspective on the current state of American health institutions and the challenges faced in reforming them. The conversation underscores the importance of transparency, independent oversight, and the need to resist entrenched interests that may compromise public health for profit.

Listeners are encouraged to tune in to Part Two of this interview for an extended exploration of bioweapons research and its implications for national and global security.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on a provided transcript and aims to encapsulate the key discussions and viewpoints expressed by the speakers. It does not represent an endorsement or critique of the content but serves as an informational overview.

Transcript

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[David Rutherford]

Five years since the madness of COVID and we still don't have the answers we deserve as the American public. This week on Capitol Hill, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Was dropping bombs in front of Congress and the Senate. Well, guess what? We welcome world renowned Scientist inventor of the MRNA technology, Dr. Robert Malone to talk all things about vaccines. Covid and the government cover up. Join me on the David Rutherford show. Welcome to the show everybody. I'm just so honored and privileged to have one of my heroes, Dr. Robert Malone, on with me this morning. Dr. Malone again, thank you for coming on. What I want to start out with is this week Robert Kennedy was junior was on the Hill and it seemed to really ruffle a bunch of feathers because in conjunction with his testimony he also made some pretty powerful changes at HHS which you know, reducing staff by 25%, condensing divisions from 28 down to 15, a bunch of other cuts taking place. And I noticed that you kept your fan base paying attention to this. Why do you think this week was such an important week from everything we've gone through over the last five years?

[Dr. Robert Malone]

No last five years. So it's I think become abundantly clear to those of us that have their eyes open that the industrial bio defense, biomedical, academic, military complex I guess is what you have to call it now, it's kind of spread into everything, has corrupted American health and American health care. And that extends out into the insurance agencies, it extends to the hospital chains, it extends to the health management organizations, it extends even to the academic journals and it certainly extends throughout the government and particularly in on the Hill. I've made the case repeatedly that to a significant extent American elections, all the way down to dog catcher practically are capitalized by pharmaceutical industry money. We also can see now over the last five years through the weaponized propaganda, not to mention censorship and the access journalism, which is another word for propaganda, that corporate media is significantly compromised. And we've undertaken uncovered some of the mechanisms by which that happens, including the large fraction of what we call corporate media or establishment media or mainstream media. A large fraction of their revenue is coming from the pharmaceutical industry. And it's not just coming in the form of advertising that is specifically seeking to induce customers to either buy the products directly or to noodle their physicians to buy the products and prescribe them. But rather this money comes in to the likes of the Washington Post, New York Times, cnn, etc in part to influence their content. If you're in it's and it doesn't have to be overt. If you're receiving a large fraction of your revenue from an industry that's going to bias how you cover that industry. And that's just, that's normal human behavior. You wouldn't expect anything less. But behind all this we've also learned that HHS has been compromised in a very significant way. Industry capture has occurred. Regulatory capture has occurred. I put out an essay the other day that was just a great case study regarding the new lobbying organization that has been set up to support the RNA MRNA industry, I should call it. I think it's an alliance of MRNA manufacturers, AMM is their acronym, led by a registered lobbyist and foreign agent who has a reputation of basically accepting whatever money is available to and does the bidding of whoever it is that's paying him. Doesn't seem to be many filters there. So that, and that what's interesting in the current discussion is that that new lobbying organization has overtly launched a targeted marketing campaign aimed at President Trump in attempting to get President Trump to, I don't know, put a leash on Bobby Kennedy, metaphorically speaking. And in the face of all of this pressure and the historic support of President Trump for Operation Warp Speed, his self identification of OWS and the MRNA based products in particular, as one of his great successes during his first term, Kennedy, Secretary Kennedy and his small handful of confirmed colleagues remember that for instance, the CDC director is still pending. There's a number of these positions that have been appointed that are still pending. And of course recently we have the Surgeon General which generated so much heat because of the base objecting to Casey means for a variety of reasons that still baffle me. You know, because the Surgeon General is really not that important of a position and it has never been controversial. The appointments for that position have kind of been nothing burgers that nobody pays attention to that the prior nominee who had a personal relationship with a key influential politician selecting my words, apparently did, could not get the votes in the Senate subcommittee and was pulled at the last minute before hearings. And, and the means, Dr. Means was substituted. So, so there's a number of these pending positions. There's a just a small handful of confirmed positions. And then overlaying this, you had Doge coming in and driving a lot of these. The acronym used in DC is riffs or reduction in force. So this is the 20% reduction in force which I think I read as I recall that under Clinton, President Clinton, there was something like a 30% riff on HHS. But still the Democrats are howling over this and you know, trotting out the usual catastrophic fear that we're all going to die, you know, because of this, you know, this is an existential crisis that there's, you know, going to be a broad based sudden death and, and all this. And Secretary Kennedy has come back rather forcefully. I, I think he must be getting a training from Jack Posavec or somebody because he's, he's coming back in these hearings and, and you know, metaphorically not tolerating these propaganda lines and misrepresentations. There was one that was particularly striking having to do with, I don't know where the woman was from California or New York with blue hair. Congress person, I guess I should say a congressperson identifying as a female, I believe, because she's from the left and so I don't want to disrespect her and her gender identity. So she was being quite aggressive about these rift positions and how catastrophic this is going to be. And Bobby came back forcefully enough that she decided she needed to talk over him and not let him finish. In which he made the case that during these last four years HHS has grown by another. I think it was 30%. Yeah.

[David Rutherford]

Right around there.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Yep. Yeah. And, and these, these reduction in force that has been put in place is just not even returning it to where it was at the start of the COVID crisis. So, but there, you know, the sky is falling and, and broad based healthcare catastrophe is impending. And Bobby's point is made quite nicely that in the face of this ongoing escalation of HHS budget and staffing, all measurable outcomes for health of, of Americans, not the least of which is their life expectancy, has continued to decline. And, and then there's the, you know, just overt mismanagement is the kindest thing I could say about the COVID crisis. You know, there's beyond, beyond, there's words. There's a spectrum of words beyond mismanagement that go all the way to intentional bioweapon, Machiavellian destruction of the future of.

[David Rutherford]

Our life as we know it. Right.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Yeah. I mean, pick your term and pick where you want to be on that spectrum. But I don't think anybody at all objective can conclude that HHS did a good job during the COVID crisis. So what I hear in this part of your question, you know, what are the consequences? I do have a fair amount of chatter going back and forth with various people in hhs. Good. Including some leadership. And I'm hearing widespread chaos that, that this, the riff has created a situation where the, you know, so understandably, a lot of these reduction in forces of actions have landed on the bureaucracy. And so the bureaucracy has faced a rather abrupt shift in staffing and they are still trying to figure out what the new chain of command is, what their new roles and responsibilities are. And so the derivative of that is in, you know, in bureaucratic world is that they don't. Their efficiency in performing routine tasks, what we might call paper pushing, has just gone straight down the toilet. And they, they just don't know. You know, what I'm hearing is just a lot of chaos and churn and, and you know, a lot of these folks are still working from home, let's say, even though they're not supposed to be right or, you know, they're off site. And then on top of that, you have the presidential appointments that should be able to start to create structure and are needed to create structure within this rift bureaucracy. And those appointments have been hamstrung, like I mentioned, by an intransigent Senate. And so you have a lot of new people. Remember, it's us. It's 100 days since the president came in, but plus, but it's like 60 days since Bobby came in. So two months with all these changes. And so you've got a bureaucracy from below that doesn't is still grappling with who's on first. And then you've got the political appointees from above that are functionally rift. They're, they're not anywhere close to being fully staffed in, in part, they can't be fully staffed not only because the Senate, but because the bureaucracy can't push the paper in order to get the appointees in. So it is a. There's a fair amount of chaos. Yet despite that, we are seeing major structural changes implemented at a breakneck pace. So, so you've got all of these moving parts going on right now, and it's a little chaotic. But to the latest thing that has the, let's say, endorsers and supporters of the biopharmaceutical industry having kitten fits right now is the kind of trial balloons that have been floated and rumors and surrogates that have said that HHS is about to make some major decisions about withdrawing support for the pediatric and pregnancy recommendations relating to these MRNA products. I hesitate to call them vaccines as prophylactics for Covid when, you know, of course, Covid now is pretty much a nothing burger, but they are all got their tails in a twist. And stat news, who basically is the voice of the Boston biotech and biopharmaceutical industry took and amplified the Wall Street Journal report of two days ago. I think it was.

[David Rutherford]

Yeah.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

When they came out with this exclusive story that has been foreshadowed, I think for about two weeks now by Commissioner McCarty and, and by the CDC and others that the data aren't there to support these positions of recommending further inoculations in children and in pregnancy, which, you know, of course the industry strongly denies that there's abundant data and, and, but completely denies that there's any adverse events, despite the literally thousands of peer reviewed papers documenting those adverse events.

[David Rutherford]

Right.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

But the press is like, no, no, no, no, I can't hear that. And it all comes down, I think the, the other day we posted a meme on X that is an old one, has a kind of a stylized graphic of a young woman with short cropped black hair wearing a mask. And written on the mask it says some version of I'm not ready to accept that everything that I thought was true was a lie. And that one, that one is, that's the meme that keeps on giving that hundreds of responses because it's got an underlying truth. There's still widespread denialism.

[David Rutherford]

I got to tell you, Doc, when, when you put out the meme post, that's my favorite aspect. A guy that has your background, all the patents, all the papers you've written, all the different places in the agencies around the world. And then when you put out a meme, it crushes me. I swear I laugh for like five minutes straight. And I, I've sent it to all my friends and I, I just love it. Thank you for that.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

So we have to be happy warriors.

[David Rutherford]

That's right.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

It's really easy to get discouraged and I'm, I'm so disheartened frankly by the bases. Some of the things that have been said, including from people, I'm not going to name names that were very close to Bobby and big supporters and they said some really strong, unpleasant words that are, are ill advised. Let's again choosing my words, ill advised language that always the gentleman one would expect to hear from the likes of AOC or Elizabeth Warren. Right. So you know, guys, everybody, guys and gals. Because we only have two genders on our side of the street, guys and gals, just chill out. Clearly, in case you don't get the memo, as I put the other day, hey, politics in D.C. is you're dealing with the imperial capital and D.C. politics are a blood sport. If you don't believe me, ask President Trump.

[David Rutherford]

Literally.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Yeah, quite. And that's a, you know, making light of that is, is a little sketchy too. I mean, it was a horrible thing. But this kind of nitpicking and negativity and second guessing and armchair quarterbacking. Recognize please, that the secretary and his colleagues that have been confirmed are confronting an enormous challenge. They are confronting some of the most entrenched powerful organizations in the world. And those organizations have deep connections within the US Government and in particular the House and Senate, but to some extent also the President and moving the president. You know, I've had I don't know how many conversations with CPAC leadership who I'm good friends with and others that have served in Trump, one that tried to coach the president and big donors that tried actively to coach the president to reconsider his positions on the operation warp speed and the COVID genetic products. And he hasn't wanted to hear it at all. I think the booing on the campaign trail caused him to drop that, that thread in his speeches towards the end of the campaign. But it's certainly the analysts, I'm sure will be chewing on this for the next decade. But a case can be made that the reason why President Trump is president and had the majority that he had was because of this assimilation of the Maha structure and electorate that really comes is, is from the left. It was a core part of the Democratic constituency historically. These are people that.

[David Rutherford]

To include Tulsi Gabbard from the intelligence side as well too.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

And Bobby.

[David Rutherford]

Yeah, that, that combo. Unbelievable.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

And by the way, Tulsi, you have to recognize in, in considering Tulsi, Bobby has Bobby actively pushed her as the next president after Trump in their barnstorming tour that they did towards the end of the campaign. And she, she still considers herself a candidate, I'm pretty sure for the next round. So Tulsi versus J.D. vance. I mean, good news is that at least we have some depth at the bench, but as opposed to the other side that's just off at, you know, Peter Pan land, you know, with the Lost boys, so. Or girls or it's. Or whatever they are. So, so this is, you know, President Trump has his own political issues here in terms of maintaining the base. Yes, this is his last term, so he's technically a lame duck. But the midterms are going to determine whether any of these executive orders are sustainable. And people keep, I don't know, they have some strange mental block to realizing that all we got with this election was about 18 months of oxygen and expending that oxygen on petty, nattering nabob stuff when the big, big issues and the big fight is still in progress and you don't even have confirmation. CDC director is just totally counterproductive. I wish people would just put a cork on it, but, you know, it's free speech and, and it's the Internet, and that's the way things are. And I'm positive, I'm positive that, you know, as the author of cywar and somebody who's had to take a deep dive into understanding modern psychological warfare and the dynamics of the Internet, that there has. The opponents of Secretary Kennedy and the Maha agenda have deployed a lot of bots and trollery and chaos agents into this space to divide the base and to promote this kind of anger and discord. And if you don't believe that, you think that's a conspiracy theory, just take a look at what was revealed after Secretary Kennedy spoke about removing sodas from the special Nutrition Assistance program, snap, otherwise known as food stamps. And the soda industry immediately created a, just a blizzard of astroturf organizations. And then they were dropping, literally, it's documented, a thousand bucks per tweet to conservative influencers to write crap about Bobby's very reasonable determination that the food stamps should not be used to subsidize toxic foods and candies and sugary sodas. You know, if somebody wants to go buy full strength Coca Cola, including the President, then that's their business. I think that we, we should not put restrictions on that, but that taxpayers should subsidize people to buy toxic foods that are going to make them more sick and cause them to need more medical care, which the taxpayers are also going to subsidize. That doesn't make any sense. And, and that's transparently the case. And yet you've got conservative influencers barking about this because they're getting thousand bucks a tweet that, talking about lack of integrity. That's, that's, you know, I, I, as somebody who now finds himself in this weird world of, quote, being an influencer, a quote, 1.3 million Twitter followers and a total of something like 2 million across all the platforms, which isn't huge, but it's nothing either. You know, I, I, I'm very aware that I need to carefully consider my messaging and maintain my own personal integrity in this. You know, I don't take money from anything except occasionally. Like, for instance, the other day I did a deal with the guy that is marketing the fentanyl test, and that brought in a total of about $250. Yay.

[David Rutherford]

You're rich, doc.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Yeah, that'll, that'll not even pay one month's hay bill, so thanks for that. I still think the fentanyl issue and the fentanyl test is, is a great advance, but, and the fentanyl issue is, is super important, but you know you can't, you can't push the rock uphill. I, I'm privileged blessed by having in our about 350,000 subscribers to our substack that get a daily about right around 13,000 of those actually have paid subscriptions. And what that means is that I have a decentralized funding base and if, if any one of those subscribers gets pissed off because I used a bad word or something and they, they decide to cancel their subscription or more commonly they're facing personal financial pressure. That's the usual reason for canceling is I have, I have a lot of readers. They like to read but they tend to be older and they're facing significant financial stress, many of them these days and so they need to stop their subscriptions. But those people set me free to be earnest and honest. But I also need to continue to act with integrity or they won't leave in droves.

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Ah come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[David Rutherford]

Thing that I've always from the earliest days where you were doing presentations with Dr. Navarro, where you were raising the alarms that hey, this is.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

You remember that? And Peter and I wrote a couple of op EDS that got the press pretty well pissed off because we were saying that you shouldn't give these products to people that don't need them.

[David Rutherford]

Well, got you kicked off LinkedIn, got you kicked off Twitter, got you kicked off all those places and got him eventually wound up in jail. You know and I, you know when you the one thing that I that really captured me the most about your lectures as well as the the fascinating details with which you articulate the science behind all of these technologies and how we're not sure what the potential long term effects are gonna be. And now through people like Ed Dowd and finding out the insurance comorbidity, you know, the morbidity rates and the explosions and super or turbo cancers and all the different issues and the VAERS data, we know what you were saying in the beginning, right?

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Myocarditis incident. I mean, David, think about this. Virtually every person on the globe has been infected, and a large fraction of them have experienced brain fog. Just that alone. The impact on the cognitive capabilities of the collective world is profound. And this was an engineered virus.

[David Rutherford]

Well, that's where I want to get to. These are the two spots. Because, you know, coming from my background in special operations, my background in the intelligence world, you know, I, I understand bioweapon. I under, I've studied it. I've had to learn. I was a medic, I had to learn how to treat it, how to identify. And then at the Agency, obviously, I learned a whole nother level about psychological warfare as well too. And that's the thing that really got me. When you started talking about mass formation psychosis, that was the pivot moment for me, because I was like, wait, here's a scientist, Here's a guy that has been deeply dedicated in his life to figuring out how to benefit humanity. And then you moved into the government, did incredible work within the government in biodefense research and development. Who's coming out and saying, listen, you all have essentially been brainwashed. You need to wake up, you need to realize what's going on. This is, these are the connections. And you were the first, I believe, the first person with substantial credibility that was voicing those alarms. My question to you, sir, is how come even with this, you know, the, the base and the extension of the base with the Maha movement and Tulsi as it grew, and we certainly saw with the political tsunami that took place this fall, you know, why are there still so many people that don't see this intricate web that is, is diabolical in nature and intentionally trying to craft these very sophisticated narratives that changed the consciousness of, of the collective.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

So if I can rephrase your question, please. You're. You, you teed up mass formation psychosis, or mass formation, the, the Matthias decimate kind of 21st century extension of the work of Hannah Art, Sigmund Freud, all the way back to Plato and the Cape. And it was, you know, vilified. The. You're familiar with all the heat that Came down on me and a lot of other people. Most here in North America are not familiar with what was deployed against Matthias, including in his own university. He was not able to teach his own book. It's, it's. And, and we even had, we had an American psychiatrist attacking him constantly and, and making false claims that he had enabled a predator to, in, in a hospital situation to kill patients and you know, just all kinds of ugly stuff. But what Matthias was speaking about and that I did my best to responsibly communicate to a broader audience and to accurately represent the logic that he had built, which kind of starts on a foundation of social fragmentation as the thing that enabled that process to occur. And by the way, ties back to the effects of hyperinflation, which also fragments societies and has, you know, it was historically kind of the roots of, of what happened in the Weimar Republic transition to National Socialism, ergo Nazis. And, and that, that hyperinflation has always historically been behind a lot of these transition moments where the population basically loses its mind and, and undergoes one of these events. And by the way, the term mass formation, that seems a little bit odd to English speaking ears, mass formation, it doesn't, doesn't fit with our use of the language. And the reason for that is because it's translated from the Dutch and it's kind of a little bit of a mistranslation because that's where he writes, that's his native language. And what he's really talking about is the madness of crowds, which we all understand. I mean that's, that's the, you know, pitchforks and, and fire portrayed in, in.

[David Rutherford]

Frankenstein or on a positive psychology perspective, it's concerts, right? The, the, the euphoria that an entire group of people could feel listening to music.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Right? Good, good, good example. So these crowd phenomena that are, are well and well known, not completely well understood psychologically. And all the pushback that we. Well, the DSM doesn't describe mass formation psychosis, therefore it's just a conspiracy theory. Well, the Diagnostic Statistics Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, I think it is. EPA focuses on individuals. It doesn't really speak to crowd based phenomena. So that's a non sequitur. So, but under that you're, you're, you're touching on this long standing observation that for instance, there's a, in, there's an interview in black and white from Aldous Huxley in the early 60s in which he speaks basically in defense of propaganda in the context of the British government basically making the case that without propaganda, governments can't operate that, that they have to use these tools in order to manage the population. You know, which libertarians, you know, drives them up.

[David Rutherford]

Dave Smith and, and Scott Horton go through the roof with that, don't they?

[Dr. Robert Malone]

But, but that's the logic, right? And, and so he, despite A Brave New World and his mentorship of George Orwell, famous for 1984 in Animal Farm, he was a defender in many ways, and his brother was seminal in the development of the UN Charter and a lot of this globalist logic that we are confronted with all the time. But he, he makes the case in that interview that about 20% of a population are highly suggestible, will basically follow authority figures. That that and others make the connection that this same fraction of the population has the characteristic that they're readily hypnotized. So they're highly suggested. And about 20% of the population are highly not suggestible people. And why that is is still a mystery. You know, is it childhood experiences? Is it genetics? It's all the above? Who knows? But there are those, and perhaps you and I are in that group of dissenters that aren't so easily manipulated.

[David Rutherford]

I, I do have to admit, though, Doc, when I went through training, I was all in, man. I, I, I drank the Kool Aid as much as you could drink the Kool Aid. And that's.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Right. That's good of you to, to own that. So, yeah. And by the way, that's a fundamental aspect of medical training. People are all perplexed by why the docs were all in harmony, supporting the narrative. Well, you can't get through medical school unless you become very adept at assimilating and regurgitating whatever authority figures tell you. That is the essence of medical training these days.

[David Rutherford]

That's why I love Casey Means. And what she's doing out there, you know, is, is speaking, you know, the most profound truth to that coming out of Harvard and the level with which she was operating. And I mean, that's why it's so beautiful that now she does get into this role that you had said, hopefully gets into this role and takes it, runs with it, you know, that you had said before was this muted role, but now, like, it can become, it's really like the spokesperson of the United States. Right.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

For it is the bully pulpit for the Public Health Service. And she would have a, typically a rank of admiral and, but not commander of the seas. But yeah, yeah, some, some, you know, the Public Health Service is structured. It basically is now growth of the Navy. And so they basically wear naval uh, tropical uniforms and uh, have, uh, assigned ranks as if they were naval officers. But I guarantee getting to be captain or admiral in the navy is a whole different thing from being captain or admiral from what I hear, but never the best.

[David Rutherford]

So sorry to distract you on your point.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

20% are just tell me what to do and I'll do it. 20% are tell me what to do and I'll tell you to go straight to hell. And the rest are basically whichever way the wind seems to be blowing. So those are the persuadable middle. And they're the only ones that matter, by the way, politically. And so you're asking the question. It's been a long time. Getting back to your question. You're asking the question, why is it that we're still seeing such a large fraction of the population unwilling to question the dominant narrative that was so aggressively promoted and deployed during the COVID crisis, Including these phrases that are used as part of neuro linguistic programming, such as safe and effective. And they're still being used. And although USAID is mostly gutted, but those programs are still, you know, capital.

[David Rutherford]

Still in the budget.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Yeah, exactly. So the. It's people, people that are in the base, let's say, don't. Don't recognize that they are still a minority opinion. The. This is. So I wrote a essay a few days ago about the splinter net and the Balkanization of. It's really the entire knowledge information space, referring to the Balkans in Europe that became very separated and isolated from each other economically, and that led to some political and economic problems in Europe historically. So the Balkans and Balkanization becomes a metaphor for when things get fragmented and the Internet is absolutely getting fragmented, hence the new term the splinter net. And it's getting fragmented in some ways in an unavoidable process. For instance, you know, we've long known that China was controlling what was available to their population because they knew that if they had a fully open World Wide Web access, then their population would be exposed to ideas that they don't want to be them to be exposed to and information they don't want. Well, the United States doesn't want us exposed to information from China, Russia being, you know, it's almost a direct crime to have been employed by Russia Times at this point. You know, what, what most of the world considers far more credible than CNN as, as a news source. But if you are an American that ever worked for Russia Times, you can forget about having a serious position with any administration or any news service now. And there's a good probability that you're going to find yourself under investigation by the FBI, if nothing else. So we do it. They do it. And now we have things like the digital information restrictions in Europe that are imposing major fines on social media companies, you know, as a fraction of their revenue if they don't restrict the forms of speech and the, and the topic areas that the European Union doesn't want discussed. And, and so then the only way to maintain, even if we want to have an open Internet in the United States, we're basically going to have to set up firewalls because Twitter, you know, Twitter or Facebook or whatever you think about them, all these entities that are major notes, you know that another little. Sorry, I'm jumping around, but the folks that haven't studied the scalability issues with the Internet don't realize that the entire Internet could be taken down by taking out something like a little less than 1% of all the nodes. Because it's all these major nodes like Google that control it all. It's all because of the kind of organic, decentralized structure. You, you have these major nodes and they basically structure the entire Internet organically. And they can't operate in an open environment if they're going to get fined, you know, 5 or 10% of their revenue. Because Dr. Malone says that Ursula von de lion is lying. Right?

[David Rutherford]

Repeatedly.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Yeah. So. And as a. Is a threat to democracy. So we're going to have to set up firewalls in the United States and, and hopefully we have an open Internet in the United States. And then as if that isn't bad enough, we have the kind of organic segregation and parsing into communities. That's another major factor, the splinternet. So that we're all. We are self. And the algorithms are reinforcing that we're self segregating into little pockets. And this is what gets back to the point. The base which, the Maha base, which represents one of those segregated pockets, thinks that because they're only talking to themselves, they think that they represent a majority opinion and they don't realize that they're still in the minority, that these positions like that the jab should be withdrawn from the market that I advocated with other physicians in a press conference broadcast and recorded at Del Big Tree studio down in Texas about three years ago. That's still a minority opinion. And, and it can't, it can't break out because of the, the organic boundaries that exist within the splinter net and because of things like small rooming that's happening, which is that I may have 1.3 million followers technically on Twitter, but. Or X. But the truth is that my messaging is only allowed to go out to a small subset of those. Right. Even though the other ones are subscribing. And so I end up feeling, thinking that I'm talking to a broader audience when in fact I'm just in the same echo chamber. And that's true for everybody in this space. So they think that the. The world is aligned with them because they're only talking to people that are like them. And so that now, now Bobby had been existing in that space. Children's Health Defense and, and the things. The audience that it speaks to, which is actually fairly modest, was where he lived and the in until he broke out of the framing kind of the Overton window that was structured around him. That he's an anti vaxxer.

[David Rutherford]

Yep.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

By assimilating. No, I'm, I'm pro health and I'm particularly pro children's health. And the vaccine issue is just one aspect of my being pro health. Fluoride is another one. Dyes in foods are another one, et cetera, et cetera. Then he was able to break out of that and reach the granola head tree hugger, pissed off moms. Right. And so the rest is history. But now he is running the largest division of the US Federal government by budget. Bigger than the dod, at least. The.

[David Rutherford]

What is the budget for hhs?

[Dr. Robert Malone]

I don't know. I can't. I don't have that in my brain. But, but I, it's, it's officially because. Because of, basically because of Dr. Oz's portfolio. Medicare, Medicaid. Right. But, but it's massive. And he now has to. I'm referring to Bobby has to represent and operate in the interests of the entire nation. He no longer has the latitude to just speak to the, the true believers. And that's. The base doesn't seem to understand that. Right. That, that he is operating in a totally different battlefield now and in up against, as I said before, the most powerful organizations in the world. Big finance, Wall street, big pharma, big ag, big food. I mean this is, this is, you know, this is the big leagues, boys and girls. And this is so much more than just vaccines that he's having to grapple with.

[David Rutherford]

I love how you frame it in that context or you know, it's like. And you keep coming back to that fight. Right. And I'm, I'm hearing it from my friends that are high up at dod what you know, Pete Hagseth is having to do with. Deal with Right. I'm. I'm hearing inclinations of it within the intelligence community. Right. And how entrenched, you know, how difficult it is with Radcliffe and everybody doing that same thing. If, If, If Bobby were.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Tulsi has got the tiger by the tail and the. And where the rubber hits the road. Not to mix too many metaphors, there is the investigation of viral origins. Yes.

[David Rutherford]

Yep, yep. And I. And it's interesting as you depict the magnitude of all of these things together and hopefully the audience is, is allowing themselves to make those connections. Right.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Because.

[David Rutherford]

Well, that's what happens. Right. People's minds blow and then are all of a sudden they're like, wait, everything I thought I knew might not be true. And then what do I do now? Like, how do I stay positive? How do I move forward with, how.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Do you stay a happy warrior?

[David Rutherford]

That's right.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Remember Ronald Reagan, okay? Never forget Ronald Reagan. It's morning in America. Be a happy warrior. Do not be one of these, you know, Down, Debbie Downer. The sky is falling. Henny Penny.

[David Rutherford]

I really hope you're enjoying the show with Dr. Robert Malone. We want to pause briefly for me to remind you that on May 31st at 11:00am Eastern Standard Time on our Patreon account, I will be giving a live motivational event. One hour of the most incredible motivation you've ever heard. This is 30 years of. Of. Of really me trying to understand what about the human condition that enables us to succeed or what drives failure in the most extreme environments imaginable. Now all you got to do is go to our Patreon account at David Rutherford show. It's a $2 a month subscription rate and you will be have full access to this event. One hour of speaking and one hour of Q and A. You don't want to miss it. Please join us on our Patreon account. Thank you.

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[David Rutherford]

Do you think that that's, that's if you were to be able to get. If, if Bobby Jr. Called you tomorrow and said Dr. Malone, I want you to come in, I want you to be one of my advisors. What are, what are the, how are you going to attack this system? This, this, you know, this multi headed system from, from the scientific community, how do you begin to break apart? Or at least at that core point, what do you advise him to do?

[Dr. Robert Malone]

If he had made that call and if I was in the progress of being vetted for something like that, I would have to deny it. Wow. Because that's the. Those are the rules in the Trump administration. Is the fastest way to find yourself not appointed is to announce your appointment.

[David Rutherford]

Got it.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Prematurely. And a number have fallen afoul of that, including, unfortunately, the people that were initially considered for usda. Right. A. A congressman that I strongly support and a farmer that I strongly support. And that's just unfortunate. And I've seen it again and again. So if. If something like that theoretical was to happen, I would find myself in a position where I'm one voice in the context of a massive bureaucracy with all kinds of competing interests. So the best I could hope to do would be to. I use the term nudge at. At the margins and what. What I think. So my position on all of this has been all the way through. If called to serve my country, I will do so to the best of my ability, but I do not seek an appointment. There are. I think there are places where I can be useful and there are other places that I might be useful, but I don't want. And that the don't want part is I know enough about what it would be like to have an administrative slot that I have absolutely no interest in. In such. Full stop.

[David Rutherford]

Roger that. All right, noted. All right. The last little.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

But. But in terms of. Of policy positions where I can be used effectively here is coming from two places, and I've spoken to Heritage about this. In theory. I'm supposed I need to get back to them. I would. I would love to be involved in. In rethinking the Vannevar Bush underlying assumptions that have guided the structure of the entire federal R and D enterprise. Vannevar Bush, for those that are, you know, look it up on Google. Vannevar Bush was a key figure in the Manhattan Project structure in operations, and he's a name that's not often mentioned. And then post war, he was tasked with basically taking the lessons learned and applying it first within DoD R D and then in a broader sense across the federal government. And the structure that he set up worked extremely well, but it's been compromised over time. A lot of people have figured out how to work around things and manipulate things and create these little fiefdoms. Like Tony Fauci kind of personifies these little mafias and that. That someone needs to take a good, hard, long look at that structure and update it in light of artificial intelligence and. And all the modern capabilities that we have.

[David Rutherford]

Well, for me, the. I'm sorry.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Go ahead. I'm also potentially useful as a subject matter expert in things relating to gene therapy, genetic delivery technologies, vaccines and general regulatory affairs. Platform technologies. There's a outstanding congressionally mandated new FDA guidance relating to platform technologies, potentially assisting in various ways the advisory boards, the Vaccine and Related Biologics Advisory Committee, and the ACIP Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices at the cdc. So I'm, I. My business before all this, and one of the reasons why I was comfortable being a, you call it whistleblower, a truth teller or whatever, is that that has been my business is I've basically been a coach to the C suite for years because I could be reliably assumed to provide an independent assessment of risks and opportunities to executives that are typically surrounded by sycophants. So that's kind of been my brand. And so it wasn't that much of a stretch to kind of do that a bigger scale. But I can, I can be helpful to assistant secretaries, directors on kind of an ad hoc basis to assist them in determining what their options are, exploring those options. And that's. I think those are ways that I could be useful to Secretary Kennedy, including serving as a sounding board to the secretary, should he wish I.

[David Rutherford]

That answer was exactly what I was hoping that you would say for me, obviously, the, the greatest fear that I have is that this whole idea of what whether it's coming from the WHO and their crazy treaty they were trying to get passed in April, whether last and last year as well, which by.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

The way, is coming up for a vote, and they're still jamming it through. They've kind of dialed back on some of the rhetoric, but it's still there.

[David Rutherford]

Do you want to talk a little bit about that at all, or is that too. That's a lot to get in there.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

They've. So I, this is, this has come at us in two packages, the International Health Regulations, which they jammed through modifications on basically by violating their own rules and protocols. And Tedros is the guy that is what was the rallying cry in the prior campaign? Not encumbered by what has been.

[David Rutherford]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Tedros seems to be a true believer in not being encumbered by what has been.

[David Rutherford]

And, and he's the embodiment of that.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Yeah, he kind of is. And you know, with the full backing of Bill Gates and the wef. And so so he jammed this through basically by violating all the rules in kind of a after dinner lightning strike on the last day. That's the International Health Regulations, where a lot of the delegates weren't even present to vote on it. And it's another one of the things, like the way Congress passes the budget. You know, they drop it on your desk and say, vote no. You don't have time to read it.

[David Rutherford]

No.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

2000. Do what you're told. That's pretty much the new model for governance. New.

[David Rutherford]

I think we're going on like, 30 years of that, Doc.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Yeah, well, they've, they've refined it to a fine art, and Tedros is a true believer in that. And then, so then the next one, the other part of the package was the pandemic treaty, and they're no longer calling it a treaty. They've, they've tried to dial back on some of the wording. They're making it less prescriptive, but it's still getting jammed through and it's going to come up for a vote. But I'm not clear whether the US So in, in the prior, in the Biden administration, Biden administration didn't even bother to appoint somebody to the, basically, board of Directors of the World Health Organization representing the United States. And given that President Trump's position is, we're getting out of this, thank you very much. I doubt that he has appointed somebody for that slot. That was actually a slot that I personally volunteered. I'd say I like this job because I would love to be sitting there turning the screws on them on behalf of the United States as we cancel our obligations. But, you know, if wishes were fishes, we would all be, there would be no beggars. So that didn't happen. I, I, so it's, it's, I'm sure that they're going to vote in some pseudo treaty, and we're basically going to save, at least I hope so, from.

[David Rutherford]

Your lips to his ears.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Right?

[David Rutherford]

I, you know, along those lines, I think for me, it, you know, we have all of these, call them stakeholders around the world who are all, you know, out there pontificating about, oh, the next one's gonna be the big one.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

The next one, all that existential fear.

[David Rutherford]

That's right.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

You're gonna die. You're gonna die.

[David Rutherford]

Conditioning that conditioning. And so for me, you know, that, that ability for you to be, you know, that, that, you know, really powerful guide to this, you know, if, if that should happen. And, you know, if you're listening, you know, don't be afraid to call your local congressman or call HHS and advocate for Dr. Malone to at least, you know, be consultant on all this, all these things. But for me, it's really about, you know, bioweapons research, which I believe is ultimately the core of what we're dealing with right now. And so, you know, my, my last kind of, you know, spectrum of, of your analysis that I would love you to, you know, share with us is where are we right now in terms of gain of function, in terms of the NGOs that we're outsourcing it, where it's being outsourced, you know, where are we now? And, and what does the current battle space of bioweapons research and development look like? And what would you like to see happen in the next, you know, six months with that? Well, if you're anything like me during that interview, my mind was blown. Dr. Robert Malone is truly, truly an expert when it comes to all things relative to the COVID 19 pandemic, the lead up to it, the generation of the MRNA vaccines. He was one of the original inventors of the technology as well as so much more in terms of mass formation, psychosis, the government's role in all this. I understand it was a, it's a lot to process, but stand by to stand by because part two is coming up. Please join us again during that episode where Dr. Robert Malone is going to dig into bioweapons research, bioweapons proliferation, and what he feels the United States needs to embark on next. So don't miss part two of my interview with Dr. Robert Malone. Thank you very much.

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Not everyone who handles your personal information is going to be as careful as you are. And it only takes one mistake to expose it to hackers and identity theft. Maybe that's why there's a new victim of identity theft every five seconds in the United States. Fortunately, there's LifeLock. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning Lifelock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan. If you lose money due to identity theft. You can't control how diligent others are with your personal information. But with Lifelock you can help protect it. Act now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code IHEARTRA or go to lifelog.com iheart for 40% off terms apply.

[Thrivent Representative]

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[David Rutherford]

Lenovo.

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[David Rutherford]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.