Ep. 7: Evan Hafer on Battling Corruption, Avoiding Endless War & Igniting Courage

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show - Ep. 7: Evan Hafer on Battling Corruption, Avoiding Endless War & Igniting Courage

Release Date: April 28, 2025
Host: David Rutherford
Guest: Evan Hafer, CEO of Black Rifle Coffee Company

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Introduction

In Episode 7 of the show, host David Rutherford engages in a profound conversation with Evan Hafer, the CEO of Black Rifle Coffee Company. Their discussion delves into critical issues such as governmental corruption, national security, economic policies, and the cultivation of courage among young men. The dialogue provides insightful perspectives on how leadership and policy decisions impact both the nation's economic health and its societal values.

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1. Assessing the First Hundred Days of the Administration [06:15 - 08:59]

Evan Hafer provides a retrospective analysis of the administration's initial 100 days, focusing on efforts to eliminate government fraud, waste, and abuse. He emphasizes the importance of realistic expectations, acknowledging that while some budgetary changes were pre-approved, executive actions remain essential for meaningful reform.

Notable Quote:

"The first 90 days is probably the most active and what I would say is the accelerated movement of dismantling inappropriate government fraud, waste and abuse, like in modern history. It gives me a ton of hope that we'll actually be able to put a dent in the $35-36 trillion deficit."
— Evan Hafer [07:20]

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2. Combatting Bureaucratic Corruption and Ensuring Accountability [11:01 - 14:51]

The conversation shifts to the entrenched power structures within federal agencies and the challenges they pose to effective governance. Hafer critiques the bureaucratic inertia that often hampers policy implementation and accountability, suggesting that empowering elected officials and promoting transparency are crucial steps toward meaningful reform.

Notable Quote:

"When you forfeit your responsibilities, it says, reelect me and I'll fix the problem, but then they can blame another federal agency next time. It perpetuates the cycle of non-accountability."
— Evan Hafer [12:00]

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3. National Security and Border Protection Strategies [17:20 - 22:14]

Hafer outlines his vision for strengthening national security, particularly focusing on border protection and the dismantling of illegal operations such as drug trafficking. He advocates for a strategic approach that targets the economic underpinnings of criminal organizations to reduce their influence and operational capacity.

Notable Quote:

"Bad actors from entering the country itself go to work on their economy to collapse essentially the pillars of the illegal activity or the black market."
— Evan Hafer [21:18]

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4. Economic Policies: Tariffs and Supply Chain Resilience [50:19 - 56:33]

Addressing economic strategies, Hafer discusses the implementation of tariffs as a tool to encourage domestic manufacturing and reduce dependency on foreign supply chains, particularly those tied to strategic adversaries like China. He underscores the importance of balancing economic incentives to bolster American businesses and maintain national sovereignty.

Notable Quote:

"Maintaining our logistics and our supply chain within the borders is crucial because, as we saw during COVID, a stable supply chain directly affects our economy."
— Evan Hafer [51:33]

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5. Rebuilding Courage and Patriotism in Young Men [29:37 - 39:40]

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the erosion of courage and patriotism among young men, attributing this trend to social issues and the pervasive impact of drug abuse. Hafer emphasizes the role of leadership in restoring trust and inspiring the younger generation to embrace courage and service.

Notable Quote:

"Service to our country should never be squandered by our leaders. Sending men off to die in wars driven by personal interest erodes trust and sacrifices courage."
— Evan Hafer [34:29]

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6. The Future of American Economy and National Security [60:44 - 63:38]

Hafer reflects on the interconnectedness of economic policies and national security, advocating for a dual focus that ensures economic resilience while safeguarding national interests. He highlights the long-term implications of economic decisions made today on future generations.

Notable Quote:

"We have to stop fraudulent spending and balance the budget to ensure we don't saddle future generations with insurmountable debt."
— Evan Hafer [62:13]

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7. Concluding Thoughts and Call to Action [64:00 - 69:40]

In wrapping up, Hafer and Rutherford reiterate the necessity of strategic economic reforms and robust national security measures. They call for collective responsibility in fostering courage and safeguarding the nation's future, emphasizing the role of individual actions in driving societal change.

Notable Quote:

"Our greatest act of courage is ensuring we don't burden the next generation with excessive debt and allowing them to reclaim their time and freedom."
— Evan Hafer [62:13]

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Key Takeaways

• Governmental Reform: Effective dismantling of corruption requires realistic strategies and executive actions, coupled with increased accountability within federal agencies.

• National Security: Strengthening border protection and targeting the economic bases of criminal organizations are essential for reducing their impact and safeguarding national sovereignty.

• Economic Resilience: Implementing tariffs and encouraging domestic manufacturing can reduce dependency on strategic adversaries, enhancing economic stability and security.

• Cultivating Courage: Restoring courage and patriotism in young men involves rebuilding trust in leadership and creating opportunities that inspire service and resilience.

• Future Planning: Balancing economic policies with national security ensures a sustainable and secure future for subsequent generations.

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Additional Insights

Throughout the episode, Evan Hafer emphasizes the importance of strategic thinking and proactive measures in addressing systemic issues. His perspectives are informed by his experience as a CEO and advocate for American values, blending economic acumen with a passion for national resilience.

Notable Quote:

"If we have more economic mobility and advancement, there would likely be fewer crises at our borders."
— Evan Hafer [57:04]

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Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the intertwined nature of economic policies, national security, and societal values. Evan Hafer's insights underscore the necessity of informed leadership and collective responsibility in steering the nation toward a prosperous and secure future. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on these discussions and consider their roles in fostering positive change within their communities and beyond.

Transcript

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[Evan Hafer]

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[David Rutherford]

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[David Rutherford]

Would you do when you weren't running a publicly traded company or flying around in MiG jets for fun. I'll tell you what you do. You'd come on my show and talk about the first hundred days, small business, young men and courage, and really just give a huge, fired up pep talk for all the listeners. That's right. Join me with Evan Hafer, CEO of Black Rifle Coffee Company, this week on the David Rutherford Show. All right, everybody, I got got to tell you, there's probably five people in this world that when I get an opportunity to sit down with them, they start giving me the motivation that I need, the motivation that I seek, the things that enable me to kind of reevaluate my life, reevaluate what I'm doing, reevaluate what my mission is every day. And I'm just beyond blessed to have one of those. Those people, one of those men that I love more than my, you know, much, many my own family members, myself, you know, is. Is Mr. Evan Hafer. So, Evan, brother, it's so good to see your face, man. How you doing, man?

[Evan Hafer]

I'm doing great. Your. Your introductions are, like, always quite a bit humbling. And, like, you know, Dave and I like just to explain to people, we. We have, like, these very deep, philosophical conversations that at times, you know, we'll go into 40 different rabbit holes, but they're. They're some of the best conversations that, like, I have in my life, right? Period. So. And I always know when. When, like, things are in the grind, when things are really hard. Like, Ping gave. Hey, man, things are hard. He's like, hey, dude, hang in there. Like, let's go. You know, kind of, like fires you up. So I'm super happy. 1. I'm super happy, and I think it's great that. That everybody gets Dave back, right? So, like, man, I'll do whatever because, like, you being out there in the world, having a voice, like, talking to men, women, families around the United States, around the world, like, it's a really, really important mission. And whatever I can do to help. It's the least I can do is spend a couple times, a couple hours of my life talking to my friend Dave. Like, that's pretty easy.

[David Rutherford]

I think. I think our last one we clocked in Austin, when we saw each other was probably. It was like three and a half hours, man.

[Evan Hafer]

That was legit.

[David Rutherford]

Yeah, that was. That was awesome. All right, so, you know, I. I think the thing that's really kind of getting to me lately is, is obviously, you know, everybody was super pumped and super fired up and, yeah, Trump's back in office and everything's gonna change and the Epstein list is coming out and we're gonna drop bombs on cartels heads and we're gonna, you know, we're gonna clean up the corruption and we're gonna put, we're gonna put the Bidens and Fauci in jail and you know, and everybody's all riding this fricking high of like, oh, yeah, this is. Oh, that's not just campaign promises, man. That's. That's not, you know, this. That's really going to happen, you know, dude. And I'll tell you what, man, I don't know about you. You're a little bit better at your reluctance to get, you know, sucked into the madness of X or any of the other places, but because you are running a publicly traded company, but you know, for last month or so, man, the vultures are out going at these people. How, if to just start. How would you rate the first hundred days, man? I mean, what are you, what are you feeling?

[Evan Hafer]

Well, it's. I think I like to rewind a little bit from that and just say, you know, the budget was already approved and passed, right? So that's his. That's his first year. So, you know, there was a lot of people that had this high degree of optimism that we'd be able to kind of reset government spending on an accelerated level, but that's just not going to happen because the budget was already passed and essentially we're already in it. So there's things that you have to do through executive order in order to really get, like, how do we build next year's budget? How do we cut out the excess now? How do we. Like, and I'm always pro. Let's, let's like, eliminate fraud, waste and abuse. Let's stop government spending in a way that's like, directly affecting the freedom and the individual rights of Americans. Like, you got to like, like, take it all out, right? So. But there does have to be like a bit of realism in the context of there's only so much you can do in the big machine. And I think that the first 90 days is probably the most active and what I would say is the accelerated movement of dismantling inappropriate government fraud, waste and abuse, like in modern history. I can't think of a time when it's ever been done like this. So it gives me a ton of hope. Like, it really does. It gives me a ton of hope that like, we'll actually be able to put a dent in the 35, $36 trillion deficit that we're in, you know, take away the, the tax and economic burden of the American citizen and give, Give our, our. Our freedoms back. And I know that from, from, you know, an individual that's looking at it. Just, I'm, I'm like, I'm participating in politics in a way of just like information as it is, it as a, As a consumer. Right. So I always know that there's a lot of things going on under the waterline. Right. It's like what we see and what's actually happening underneath the waterline. Like, there's a lot of activity and a lot of things are taking place. But I find a lot of hope in the right people surrounding the President. I think he has the right people in place now. I think he learned a lot from the first administration. I think he placed a lot of the right people around him in the second one. So I would say I'm really, actually extremely impressed with the amount of work that's already been done. I'm hopeful that we'll be able to take out a lot of the fraud, waste and abuse, and I'm really hopeful that we'll be able to see some of our freedoms return to the American citizens. Like, we have to get our liberty back.

[David Rutherford]

Oh, God. That's the thing for me, man. And it's such a complicated thing, right? It's like we think about liberty as, oh, I get to wake up, I get to go to my job, I get to do this. But. But nobody takes a deep dive. Well, maybe not. We released a show last week about the judicial system and what we're seeing there. And so it's like, wait, wait a minute. You're telling me now that a guy that's part of a designated terrorist organization, international gang, who beat his girlfriend or wife, who was rightfully deported because he had already been identified by multiple law enforcement agencies, that guy is who the other party is going to go and defend and start having all these crazy rallies about and AOCs up in front of some massive crowd the other day, just completely gaslighting the crowd, and that's what they're getting behind. And so that's the thing that's so shocking to me is that even with the exposures from, you know, the. What was his name? Big Balls and Doge.

[Evan Hafer]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Rutherford]

Hairy Balls, I think it was. So even with all that that's happening, like, you can't deny it. You can't look at the fact that USAID was funding 9 out of 10 of the news agencies in Ukraine, right, to show favorable support of Zelenskyy. Even in the midst of all that, people are still kind of asleep as to what, what is taking place. And you know, under the veneer of what we see on, on screen. Do you think that like Pete or Tulsi, do you think, or even Robert, if you know, RFK Jr. Do you think they're running into some challenges?

[Evan Hafer]

Oh, 100%. You know, the bureaucrats that, you know, they, their job is to upward their, their jobs. Typically when I look at them, right, they're there to seize power and control. Right. So, and it's interesting because Mike Lee is a Utah senator. I live in Utah and Mike had a great, great podcast with, with Tucker last year where he talked about the, the legislative body and their ability to essentially offload their authorities and responsibilities. These government agencies, they've given them more power and more authority. And Mike's much more articulate. I mean, he's a congressional scholar, he's an attorney. So I can't summarize and do it any, any justice whatsoever. But understanding that, you know, these federal entities have way more power than, than they should and when you forfeit your responsibilities, what that does is it says, well, as a politician you can come back and say, reelect me and I'll fix the problem, right? But then they can go back and blame it on another federal agency or a federal entity. And then they can go, but this time, this time, baby, I'm going to do it right, you know, but this time I'm not, you know, I'm going to do it right this time. So it just kind of perpetuates the cycle of non accountability. And then as kind of bureaucrats grow within their power structure, they've been able to, what I would say is like they'll fortify their positions from different political administrations and entities. And so I see this is really like putting power back where it belongs, which is with the people. I guarantee we don't see it, but I guarantee they are hitting roadblock after roadblock. Passive resistance is a real thing, right?

[David Rutherford]

A hundred percent. My thing is like I'm watching, you know, they have, it seems like with the two of them in particular, they're on this, like they're on this media camp. Not media camp, but like public relations campaign, right. Just yesterday or today it was, you know, they were doing a workout together with the Marines. And then you see Pete's over here working out with team guys or an ODA team. And, and man, I love that. I think, you know, that's what you Want to feel like. You want to feel like, oh, yeah, that dude would get into the fight, she'd get into fight. I mean, my favorite videos are, you know, Tulsi doing the three gun competitions and just, you know, killing it. And so it's like, yeah, I love that. But what's going on in the Pentagon? Like, you know, you know what? Cause there's, there's. I mean, what is it? We have more flag officers now than we did during World War II. And I'm willing to bet a lot of those guys are all primed and ready to get out and go get their jobs at Lockheed or wherever. Right? And so the only way they do that is to make sure those government contracts are secured. Right. As you move on. Well, we've already seen Trump eviscerate USAID 50 billion there. They. I remember about a couple weeks ago, Pete was on and he was like, we're really happy to bring Doge in to look at what we're spending money on. And then it went dark, man. So it's like, you know, that pushback has got to be. When you walk the halls of that building, man, like, you're talking about that entrenched bureaucracy, but that entrenched, you know, those entrenched dollar signs, that's gotta be difficult, do you think, Peter? Yeah, power equals.

[Evan Hafer]

Yeah, budgets equal power, right? So like, like when you're trying to strip budgets, you're actually stripping power. And people aren't gonna just roll over in acquiesce to that, like, easily. Right? So this is like a. I would say it's probably like a baseline psychological condition to most bureaucrats is like, hey, well, they believe. And a lot of them are true believers in whatever program they're running. And they're so insulated from quite possibly the plight of the taxpayer because, you know, if they've grown up professionally in the government, I'm defending anyone. I'm saying, like, I think understanding. And, you know, you and I both come from like, that background where, you know, we saw fraud, we abuse, like, firsthand, you know, every day sometimes I, I tend to think that a lot of people, if they were just exposed to looking at what people really are hungry for, meaning they, if you think about, you know, a third of our tax or a third of our salaries and compensation in our lives are, are essentially given to, you know, state, local and federal taxes. That means one third of our life they spent working for the government. I mean, for a lack of a better term. So I, I start to think about that, like, man, we should be going to work on this budget, going to work on all of our budgets to try to reclaim our time. So we're not working for inappropriate, fraudulent programs that ultimately we don't agree with. Maybe ethically, morally, spiritually, there we're just not aligned, but we're just forced to kind of belly up to the bar and pay the tab for people that believe in a certain program. It might. It's insignificant as far as the overall strategic interest of the United States. So having people kind of one team, one fight, you know, that are in line, like, seeing them working out with, you know, the soldiers and sailors and airmen, you know, being empowered, empathetic to the guys that are on the front lines doing the job, that to me says, okay, one, you do feel like you're in a team. Like, we're part of a team. We're making a difference. It's not disconnected between us and them. It's like, we're in it with you. Let's go to work not only trying to save lives through strong national. National security, but let's make sure that we're not wasting taxpayer dollars. Right?

[David Rutherford]

Oh, yeah. Well, it's also. It's paid off. It's paid off tremendously, too, because look at the recruiting numbers. Yeah, I mean, the recruiting numbers are skyrocketing. So it's like, you know, I'm like, yes, yes. In fact, I keep hammering because, dude, I don't know what it is, man. It's gotta be you army motherfuckers. But he was just after, like, workout after workout after workout with army, you know, different units. And every time I'd be like, when are you gonna be with nsw? I just kept sniping the. Because I was like, hey, man, I want a little bit of that. Hoo. Y'all going, too. Like, I want you to, like. I want, like, we need to bring dudes into our thing, too. So that's, like, really positive for me. I feel a profound sense of resurgence and that pride and that stuff that you all. You and I talk about, that stuff that drives us in. But I also know, you know, from some friends, like, all right, what's happening? Like, what are the next steps? You know, what. What is going to take place in particular? The one for me. And this is, you know, you and had a talk about this before. And then I think your last time you were on with Joe Rogan, man, in that piece you did about if the cartels get labeled or designated as terrorists. What does this look like? How does this change? And this Is the thing that I think one of the most significant thing that Americans want it, it's tangible. And so they just designated. What was it, that 10 mile between the border recently. They've militarized it. So, you know, our cause. I think my favorite line was, yeah, once a tier one unit is coming after you, that's a bad day, right? So are you waiting for something like that or are you, you know, are you like, a lot more. What's your mindset as you as a citizen? Like, what do you want to see first as a citizen and you know, from your background as an operator? What, what, what do you hope is taking place?

[Evan Hafer]

Well, I think primarily number one is I want them to do their job, which is like, keep America safe. And that that means, like, what we have to do. I think from like a national security position, strategic national security position, is if we have people that are, you know, importing illegally importing drugs, you know, trafficking people, and this is not only illegal activity, this is immoral, unjustified behavior that we can't just turn a blind eye and say that it's not going on. We have to do something about it. We have to identify. First and foremost is like, identifying you have a problem, right? Isn't that like step one and like this, the steps of recovery is like, hey, let's identify we have a problem, right? It's like, you know, it's like the steps of recovery. So for me, the way I look at it is like, step one, we have a problem. Step two, identify the problems. And then you have to look at them from like macro to micro elements as far as impact, and then go to work on the big macro elements and then work your way down to the micro elements. But you have to have measurable impact. So what I'm actually waiting for is the results. I want to see numbers. I don't want to see lip service. I don't want to see any more.

[David Rutherford]

Like, you don't want to see Chrissy Gnome? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Evan Hafer]

Like.

[David Rutherford]

And what are the metrics you're looking for? What do you want to see? How many terrorists, how much money they've lost? I mean, obviously the inflow of illegals in the human trafficking ring, it's pummeled. I just saw something this morning that this time last year was like 370,000 for April, and now it's like 7,000 or March. It was March numbers. And so, I mean, that's a.

[Evan Hafer]

That's a huge tangible number, right?

[David Rutherford]

That's a tangible number. So we see that taking place. But we also know, and there's a few people out there that are really doing great coverage. Oscar Blue, what's, I forget his last name. He's out there with Ben Berkwam on top and he's doing the stuff he's covering now, which is unbelievable, is that, that we've shut off, right, the human smuggling operation. And then now we just saw that monster, half a billion bust down in Florida. That cash was out there promoting in Pambani. Now they're tampering off the inflow of fentanyl and drugs. What's going to take place in Mexico, in these cities and it's going to be mass chaos. It's violence. So are we looking for, I mean, is there, is there a bad account number that we need to see as Americans?

[Evan Hafer]

I think that's part of it. I think it's, you know.

[David Rutherford]

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[Evan Hafer]

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[David Rutherford]

I mean, is there, is there bad account number that we, we need to see as Americans?

[Evan Hafer]

I think that's part of it. I think it's you Know, dollars are just the measuring point as far as like the economic success. So I think you actually have to measure the micro economy that's associated with any black market economy, which is basically what we have. Right. So if we look at illegal activity as a whole, and then you have to look at it as, okay, this is a black market illegal activity economy. Okay, now let's take a look at the economic impact. We have to say if the black market economy, and I'm using like, like general terms here, but the gross domestic product of, you know, the Mexican cartel is X and we put a dent in it of Y, like that means something like. And it's substantive because we've taken away their ability to economically incentive people that are conducting illegal activity inside our borders, regardless of it. So but we have to go to work, I think is triage and priority against what are the, what are going to be the biggest impacts into affecting their economy? Because that is the crippling point to any of these industries. You start crippling their economy now you're taking away jobs. When you're taking away jobs and opportunity inside a black market activity, that means people don't have economic mobility. They can't move up if there isn't any jobs. So they're going to go seek jobs, employment in other places. Because it's a human condition. You have to have money in order to exchange that money for goods and services to live. So will they flood out and ultimately will they conform into what I would say is a civilian population standard economy basis in like Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, like we'll just call it South America. The answer is yes. That's going to take a while. Right, so that's where I think import, export and then understanding within not only our borders but this hemisphere providing the right economic incentives. I'm not talking about like, you know, giving them money. I'm talking about how do we.

[David Rutherford]

Building factories, creating jobs. Yeah, yeah.

[Evan Hafer]

So and then, and I'm really like, I mean, who, who, who, who am I right to talk about this other than like, I'm looking at it from economic impact, direct results as far as shrinking the overall economy that's directly impacting our society in a negative way. Going to work on the big pieces and then targeting the small pieces as we continue to go. But right now, in the first four years, I think it's really important to have substantive economic damage to illegal activity that's coming in from all around the, all around the world. So, right. If we're talking about targeting very specific gang activity like MS.13 or whatever it is, what is their main economic engine? Like, is it drugs? Like I would imagine it is, right? So that's where I think we have to like focus our intent. Big organizations, big economic impact, what are their drivers? How do we be very precise? And that's not necessarily about body count. That's about keeping drugs out of our country. Right, yeah, keeping them out. Because that provides real substantive economic impact. Because where are they going to take it? Where are they going to sell it? I might be oversimplifying it. I'm sure I am.

[David Rutherford]

No, remember, I think a lot of people that when they do face this issue, they hear, hear the things on TV and we're designating them terrorists. And just like everybody, because I don't know, last 25 years at a GWOT, they're gonna imagine like a bunch of unit guys showing up with their head cams and just smoking 300 cartel members with their doing their dances with all their tricked out stuff on. And like that's what people are imagining, that this is what this is about. When they don't even stop for a minute and say, well, how much influence does the cartels have in the Mexican government? How much influence do they have? How many cartel leaders actually own predominant legitimate businesses in Mexico? And you know, I mean, it's just. And then, you know, the collapse and what that looks like. I mean, obviously there's still a market. Maybe the market moves and goes in a different direction, Europe or Southeast Asia. But now the market's cut in half. Now there's gonna be these civil wars that emerge, which we already saw, what, five, six years ago? I remember Lara Logan being down on the border and being on the top of a roof. And I forget the Homeland guy she was with. There's a full firefight going on in the town, right? Oh, and I think it's, I think it's good for people to hear, you know, that kind of distilling down to, hey, you got to focus on the bigger things first.

[Evan Hafer]

Well, in. And I think that's part of it, right? But like there's also kind of a, what I would say is a physics truth, which is energy begets energy, so violent energy begets violent energy. And so the more we plug in with violent energy, quite possibly the more violent energy we're going to have to face here. So my biggest concern is that violent energy conducted across or in South America, Mexico, wherever we're at, will end up here and affecting civilians. And that would be the wrong equation for us to not play out from a second and third order effect. So protect the borders, protect people. What I would say is bad actors from entering the country itself go to work on their economy to collapse essentially the pillars of the cornerstone of the illegal activity or the black market. And then of course, there's going to have to be, I think, a kinetic environment in there too. But we do have to protect the homeland and make sure that we don't start that too early because we don't want the. What I would say is the violent spillover to affect innocent American lives here. That would be one.

[David Rutherford]

I think that that's genius. I mean, that's. That's a legitimate, well thought out evaluation is like. And that hopefully gives people a little bit of pause to say, oh, yeah, we're gonna go to the war with the cartels, but it's all gonna be in Mexico. I mean, that's a brilliant way to kind of put people back in a position where they can think a little bit more critically about it. For me, the thing is, yeah, we've had what, roughly 100,000 plus deaths from fentanyl every year since COVID like more deaths than World War II, right? That's the craziest number. Number one thing, killing young people, 18 to what, 26 or 29 or something like that, and just wreaking havoc. And this is something that I think you and I are always focused on, man. Every time that I'm around you or with you, we always kind of go towards this idea is that young men right now, right, they're with kind of the. The lack of courage, I think, and that's not all on themselves. I think a lot of it's been driven out of them for a whole different types of social issues. But we stop those drugs, right? We get those young men drugs out or access the drugs, and then it's like, okay, now it's cool to go back in the military again, all right, or go to law enforcement. Law enforcement's looking good again too. Let's, you know, take the handcuffs off them, let them do those jobs. We still have the challenges with a lot of DAs, but, you know, this. This gap, I think for us provides this wonderful opportunity in particular for young men to start to say, all right, man, now I can, I can get my mojo back now I can, I can start. I can start going. So in your mind, you know what, where does that courage begin to re. Emerge in young men right now?

[Evan Hafer]

Well, I think it kind of starts with. It starts with the country. It starts with our leaders. They have to earn trust back that they're not going to put guys like you and I in endless wars for Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and Halliburton. Number one, you got to earn back trust that we're just not going to flippantly send our, our children now. Right. Our children are off to wars for profit. Because I, I kind of, I distill different things now down to like simple truths, which is there are wars of choice and there are wars of maintaining sovereignty, which is the. In those you don't have a choice. You have to maintain the sovereignty of the country. So when you have a war of choice, which is one of the issues that we've seen over the last several decades is these, these are wars that we have f. We've decided or somebody. The decider decided. Right, right. That we're going to send young men and women off to die in foreign countries with no success criteria. There's quite literally a negative strategic gain in the long term effects of it. So it starts with a clear understanding. And really you have to have leaders that are not willing to. What I would say is squander courage because it is the most precious thing that I think men can encompass, embody and ultimately utilize in their life. Like being a courageous man is I think, one of the finest virtues, quite possibly. I don't know if you can be wise without being courageous, to be honest with you. I think it's kind of a foundational element. But service to our country should never be squandered by our leaders. And what I've consistently had a hard time with over and over is that did our leaders actually have us the best, our interests and did they sacrifice our courage and our time in our lives because of a personal interest or belief? So I, I definitely had this issue with a lot of the neocons that got us into Iraq because I've spent a huge percentage of my time in Iraq. You know, I don't think guys like Paul Wolfowitz, Dubya Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rummy, I don't like, first and foremost, I think you have to be a man of courage in order to send men off to die. Like, so I think there's, I think there's a distinct difference between, you know, people like to pull back in history and look at different men and women, both actually, that have like, made decisions to send people off to die for their, for our country or our cause. And like, there's very distinct differences between Vietnam and World War II, Iraq, Afghanistan and World War II. And we, we can't continue to rest America's image on the sacrifice of the men in World War II. That was a choice. We didn't have a choice. That was a war of national sovereignty. We had to maintain our national sovereignty. And the men that were leading us through those times, I mean, even if you look at Truman for the back half, I mean, Truman was a decorated World War I veteran. Post that in the Cold War, I mean, Eisenhower obviously led the Allied invasion. Winston Churchill, like, I don't know if there was a, there was a time in his life leading into World War II that that guy wasn't giving a speech that was directly an affront to the Nazi encroachment on civil liberties in the Western world. Right. So he was a man of courage. Not only physically, he had personified courage as a soldier, but then he did it every day through his speeches, through his acts of virtue. And I'm not lionizing anyone. Everybody has their faults. We're all human. Right, so you're not saying they're perfect, everyone is flawed. But I don't necessarily know if the man that sent us to these wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were men of courage and women of courage. I think from a theoretical, academic thought process, they, like Wolfowitz, is a extremely intelligent guy. But I don't think they actually, they don't understand the, the real sacrifice, nor did they. They didn't understand the Middle east, they didn't understand Iraq, and they didn't, they don't have the tangible experience of the blood and sacrifice of men in the sands of a foreign country to really understand what they were doing. They didn't truly understand it. So I think you have to build back trust, Dave. Like number one, you're not going to send people off to die in a dumb fucking war.

[David Rutherford]

And that's what scares the hell out of me. I mean, I know you're paying attention to it like I do, but, you know, now all of a sudden it's like you start to see those old school mentalities start to, you know, move that radical and where is it going? It's right back on Iran. And you know, I wanted to get your thoughts of let's, you know, if, if some, I mean, I don't think it's a stretch, but if something begins to turn the tides of the administrative focus towards recognizing that Iran is a threat or whatever and we get into a kinetic war with them, it's not going to be like any of the other ones. I mean, this one's going to be, could be devastating and has grander implications globally as well too. But what I see in my head is I see another 3 million American kids, at least in their minds, are gonna roger up and go fight over in the deserts of southern Iran, Iraq, and over in Afghanistan. I mean, it's madness to me. But there's a sensation that I think is building that that's a possibility. Do you think that that might be true?

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[David Rutherford]

But there's a sensation that I think is building that that's a possibility. Do you, do you think that that might be true?

[Evan Hafer]

I've learned over, you know, the last couple decades to never question the arrogance or stupidity of our political leadership. Which, to be quite honest with you, I mean, I, I, I, I, I, when I, anytime now I hear the, the drumbeats of war, I am highly skeptical. And the first question I have to ask is, is this a war of necessity? Will, will. Does Iran have the capacity to eliminate our national sovereignty? The answer is no.

[David Rutherford]

Absolutely not. No.

[Evan Hafer]

So that's the number one principle of having what I would, what I, what I would define as a virtuous war because you don't have a choice when you have a choice. And I'm not saying that every, like there's, there's a difference between having a, a position and a strategic interest in eliminating threats to the United States. That's not necessarily a hot war against another nation state, right? That's pursuing people that have a, a, that are affecting your national security and your, ultimately your economic interest internationally. That's not like getting yourself into a hot war with, what is it, the third largest army in the, in the world. We have We, I think there are a lot of different options out there that we could exhaust before this went into some type of hot war exchange. I think it would be extremely detrimental. 1. I don't know if the American public can handle another war. Right. I mean, we've been at war. We just ended the afghan war after 20 plus years. Like, yeah, to go to Iran would be. I think it would be a really big mistake.

[David Rutherford]

I really, I just, I mean, for me, on a personal level, it's like every, every outcome is the antithesis of what the outcome that I was led to believe was going to be the outcome. Right. All of them. And you can go, me can go back, you know, as far, I mean, Vietnam, even before that. I mean, probably. I mean, and it's like now you're trying to pitch us another one because as I've shared with you deeply, one of my greatest concerns is that we have squandered that eternal flame of courage in young men. And this could break the will completely. It's interesting. I love watching the Johnny on the street interviews and all that. And I recently watched one of, of, of somebody over in England, right? And they were. It's when Starmer was, you know, projecting, you know, America's leaving Ukraine behind and we as Englishmen need to get behind this. And, you know, they were say, we're at a little bit like, we're going to put boots on the ground and that type of thing. And this guy was on the street and he's like, wow. Do you believe in what Starmer's position? Oh, yeah, his position in Ukraine is great. All right. Would you, would you sign up as soon as they declared war and go.

[Evan Hafer]

Well.

[David Rutherford]

You know what I mean? Well, you know, that's not technically happening, so. But, but so, you know, I still think America, you know, American men are the greatest fighters on a planet. I think they always will be. However, if you trick them again and you put these young lads in one more time, I mean, there are catastrophic consequences that inevitably will come when the crux of the majority of the people you're counting on to project that power no longer feel. What is it? Feel that sense of imbued patriotism to go fight, wage whatever war they ask us to do again.

[Evan Hafer]

Yeah. I think, you know, love for country is one trust, right? It's like love and trust. I think really they're, they're, they're, they're honestly built on each other, right? So the foundation of our love for our families and our wives and is built on the fact that Especially I think when we're talking about our lives, right? It's like trust, right? Respect, trust. So to have a profound amount of patriotism, you also have to have a profound amount of trust in your political officials, your elected officials. And if we go to war again, I just, I see that as it's completely eroding the trust in our elected officials. Because you, whether or not you can thoroughly intellectualize something doesn't mean you can't feel it, because I don't know about you, but after a few years in Iraq, I could feel it. I couldn't like, articulate. I was still trying to like, really provide myself. The, the, what I would say is the, the intellectual effort to try to like, keep, keep keeping the fight right. Where, like, I think that there's a significant amount of, there's been a significant amount of trust lost. And, you know, I don't, I just don't see a world where we can do this again without sacrificing the trust within our fellow countrymen, especially the new generation of war fighters. To your point, this might be the death nail of being able to recruit people into the military because there will be a complete deterioration of trust within the American political system.

[David Rutherford]

Amen. Wow. Unbelievable. All right, last question for you before. And then we will. I do have one more Patreon question for everybody after that, but that's a fun one. So fun and serious. But this is the last question. All right. Obviously you run a public company. The whole tariffs thing. We had a really brilliant young economist on the other day. Guy was really smart, talked about on shoring up 7% year over year, talked about how actually the economy is doing really good. And that tariffs was just one more thing what the old guard media was trying to light up to destroy any semblance of success within the Trump administration. As a person that is highly engaged in the American economy, are you pleased with where we're going right now in the economy, in, you know, where do you see the economy going in, you know, the next six months to a year?

[Evan Hafer]

Well, I think, you know, I am, I am pleased that we're having some type of, what I would say is a balancing conditions between other countries and import, export and specifically in tariffs. Like we have to make it. What I would say is we have to have the appropriate economic incentives to encourage businesses and small businesses to keep manufacturing and hire people within, like the United States. We have to. And you know, we've had such a long run of outshore or offshoring a lot of the, the industries to, specifically to one of our greatest strategic threats. I mean, China, which doesn't make any sense, by the way. Like, there's no, there's no reality, I think that we could all live in where we're. The only reality I can figure out is like, okay, there's a codependency economically from the two main military superpowers in, in the world. Well, okay, well, now if we decouple those, then we'll both collapse our economies, which nobody would want to do. Right. But just based on the fact that like humans, mostly like they do want economic security on both sides. So to be a political zealot, whether you're a communist or a democrat, it would also mean a forfeiture of some type of your political ideology in that, in that regard. So it's not only economic, but it's also political and they're tied. The thing that I see is there does have to be a balance. And one of the greatest things that, that I think we've been able to do over the last three, three months is now we have a really complex conversation around what do these mean? What is it reciprocity as far as like tariffs from China, tariffs in the United States, tariffs internationally, how do we need to look at them? But really, I think the macro conversation is how do we directly support and economically encourage Americans to be in these manufacturing jobs and or these jobs that we've traditionally in the last several decades, outsourced to other countries? Because it not only protects the country economically if we maintain our logistics and our supply chain within the borders, because as we saw during COVID when the border shut down and we don't actually have a stable supply chain, it directly affects our economy. And if we think back to the 4,5 trillion dollars that we had to, that we, that we reinjected or injected back into the American economy to artificially prop it up over the course of COVID we should have learned a few things over that, which is there are a few things that we really have to just make bomb proof from a supply chain logistics and manufacturing capacity. We have to maintain for national security some form of a semblance of our supply chain and technology manufacturing. We do like we just have to from a strategic interest perspective. Economically, it makes us more powerful because now we can start to export more and we were more competitive in the international workforce or international workplace economy. But from an individual level, I'm highly encouraged by it. I. Yes, I understand that coffee prices are going to go up based on the impact. Got it. Okay. Coffee has been underpriced for 50 years.

[David Rutherford]

Wow.

[Evan Hafer]

It was at its lowest price point like, like last year in modern history. And we're consuming more coffee than we ever have. And yet the coffee prices are low. And a lot of that is built on the type of farming that is being conducted in Brazil for mass manufacturing of agriculture products. Specifically coffee is driving down, artificially driving down the price. So if we have to pay a little bit more for coffee, I mean people walk into coffee shops around the United states and pay $4 every day for drip coffee. Typically, okay, well you get a lot more than for a 10 to $12 bag of coffee, you can have 18 to 20 cups of coffee. Right. So that just means that you have to shift your purchasing behavior because if you can afford a $5 drip coffee and you got to pay an extra dollar in the grocery store to stabilize and reinforce what I would say is an appropriate strategically aligned supply chain that maintains our sovereignty, like that's important. So I think it's economically of interest to the United States. I also think it dovetails directly into maintaining our national sovereignty. So I am highly encouraged that this tariff conversation will one at least start the multi country debate. And we're going to land in a much better spot in this negotiation.

[David Rutherford]

Awesome, man. I love to hear you talk about it, man. You know, it's funny man, when you start to think about commodities and you start to think about how integrated they are into the purchasing mindset of everyday life, right? Coffee's at the pinnacle of them, right. I mean, you know, and I just to see the way you're able to summarize it and expand on it for a grander economic stability, it's really cool and I appreciate your thoughts on that, buddy.

[Evan Hafer]

Well, I think to add one more thing to that. Yeah. You should always be thinking about our national security and our strategic interest as well as our economic interests. Right. So it's, it's just kind of always been a head scratcher. The last 20 years, why we have been so. We've capitulated so much of our economics to China and we've ultimately directly contributed to the build of their economy which then lends itself to them having a larger military and a much bigger military scope and more strategic authority that is directly misaligned with our long term strategic goals. So why are we outsourcing big economic pieces of our like big pieces of our economic condition in America to our most strategic strategic foe? That to me even if we just look at like, let's just cut the world in half and look at this hemisphere for like two minutes. Okay. If we just look at like Mexico, if we were actively encouraging industry in Mexico, would we have such a border crisis? If there was more economic mobility and advancement? If people had opportunities to go to work in high paying manufacturing jobs just in Mexico, would there be such a border crisis? I think not. Listen, I'm not an economist. I'm just kind of a guy that like, you know, roasts coffee and hire a few people. Like, I can pontificate about this all day long. But if you have more economic mobility, more jobs within our own hemisphere now we don't have to ship those jobs in our supply chain and manufacturing out to our most strategic like that, to me seems it's easier to get goods in and out. We're aligned with our, our, the people that we're sharing our borders with. From a national security perspective, they're not our enemies. Okay? There's more to gain from building even what I would say is, is, is not only internal economics, but also making it economically advantageous for our friends to do business with us, not our enemies.

[David Rutherford]

Oh, that. I think that's the, the key to a global success as it is. I think the real thing is, what I'm big supporter of is, hey, let's just make it more fair, right? Let's enable our goods and services to have a much more competitive edge around the world instead of just being the overall consumer of all things. Yeah, I thank you for sharing that, man. I, I think that really helps people because I, I know when I'm on the road, obviously, you know, I just spent a couple days up in, in New Jersey. I talked to probably, I don't know, maybe like 400 people in two days and had some really amazing conversations with these, these advisors who are, you know, talking about the conversations they're having with their people, with the people that, you know, are, have invested and they're managing their portfolios. And it's like last week or whenever, when the tariff thing hit and the market dumped, people were losing their fricking minds because they aren't thinking about it in the scope that you just described it as. So I think it's incredibly valuable. I think even though you are just kind of an old knuckle dragon coffee guy, I think your wisdom does have an impact for people. So thank you so much for sharing that.

[Evan Hafer]

A buddy of mine, he always gives me this advice. He's like, take a deep breath. Things are never as good or as bad as you think they are. And it's like this whole conversation last week that the economy went up and down. You're on a roller coaster ride and it's like, okay, take a deep breath. Like, okay, what's in the long term? And I think that was the, you know, part of the narrative, which is, yeah, there's some short term pain for some long term benefit. And what, what do you say? You got to take your medicine a little bit. And I'm like, hey, he didn't get us here, by the way. Like, this was a series of different presidents starting at Nixon that ultimately landed us here. So like, you know, don't kill the messenger when they're telling you like, hey listen, this is, this is for the long term, good for, for your children.

[David Rutherford]

Or for your grandchildren, man, that's, that's the way, that's the way I'm constantly framing this whole thing is like, man, is the pain right now going to benefit for the positives of my children when they're out there starting businesses, joining the military, working for a corporation, you know, pouring coffee? Whatever it is, man, how do we set it up for them? That's, that's our, you know, we're the stewards of the future. Right. And it's, I think it's just critical that, that everybody understands and takes that on on their backs.

[Evan Hafer]

Yeah, man, you can't, you can't saddle the future with $35 trillion a deck. Like, you just can't do it. Like that's, it's, it's immoral for us not to do something about it. And ultimately that could be our greatest act of courage is like going to work making sure that we don't saddle our, the next generations with so much debt that they're going to spend half their lives working for the federal government. That's because we chose to loan money at the tune of trillions of dollars because we can balance a budget and we can stop fraudulent spending. Right? Like these are just like, you know, I calculated it a while back. There's, we'll call it $15 trillion. Just between the global war on terror and Covid. Right. So we started the G WAT at just about $5 trillion in debt. And then we exited Afghanistan with $34 trillion in debt. So like all of those trillions of dollars and none of which was, was spent on, you know, building American infrastructure, you know, rebuilding our education or high speed railways or I could think of like a thousand different initiatives, possibly would have been more of an economic advantage than like sinking it into the soil in Central Asia or the Middle East.

[David Rutherford]

I agree, brother. I agree. Dude. Love seeing your face, man. Thank you so much for coming on. I can't wait till next time. I promise you next time is going to be with you out there. All right, buddy?

[Evan Hafer]

Yeah. Come out anytime, Dave, you know I love you, buddy.

[David Rutherford]

Love you too, man. God bless you, brother. Thank you.

[Evan Hafer]

Thank you.

[David Rutherford]

The following is a preview for our additional content, only available on Patreon. One of the things that we're hoping on Patreon that we can do for everybody, especially the young people that are coming, is just give them some little bit of wisdom. And so there's two main things that I want. I would love it if you could just kind of just pontificate a little bit more on is one, where can people find courage in themselves? Like what are the activities? What are the things? What can they read? What are the. The basics, right, that invoke a grander sense of being courageous, Right? That's the first half. And then the second half is once they discover it, once they start to feel it, how can then they invest that courage into something tangible that validates the effort itself, that allows the courage to continue?

[Evan Hafer]

It's a great question. You know, you and I have talked about this a lot, so a lot of things come to mind, which is there's a falsehood that's kind of built on Hollywood that, you know, people just average joke and like roll out of bed, their feet hit the floor, and then they're all of a sudden going to become courage or courageous. And that just doesn't exist. It's a. It's a practiced art. It's a lifetime endeavor. And it never ends, actually. So you have to kind of sign yourself up for the individual work that is going to last for the rest of your life. Because I used to talk about this, you know, 20 years ago. You have to seek out challenges that intentionally drive fear back into your heart. And then you have to pursue those things with practice, discipline, organized effort, and you have to work through the problem in a very methodical crawl, walk, run phase. And then you have to practice being scared, which is to hear the rest.

[David Rutherford]

Of this incredible interview with my great friend Evan Hafer. Go over to our Patreon site where you can hear us talk a lot about some ideas that'll enhance courage and really propel you to find your purpose in life. Also, we really want to announce on May 31st we're going to have a live of motivational event, an hour of discussing the whole core concepts behind what I've learned over the last 30 years. Then we'll open it up to an hour long Q and A where you can ask me anything you want about motivation, performance and all of the other topics that I've been working on for a long, long time. Join us for $2 a month on our Patreon at David Rutherford show. Thank you.

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[Evan Hafer]

TV has been just that, a TV.

[David Rutherford]

But what if it could be something more? Meet Samsung Vision AI Whether it's upscaling.

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Classic content to look brand new or.

[David Rutherford]

Translating in English broadcast subtitles to Spanish in real time, Samsung Vision AI helps you get more from TV than you ever thought possible. Experience Samsung Vision AI and get a.

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Music frame on Samsung with a qualifying.

[Evan Hafer]

2025 TV and audio purchase.

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Visit Samsung.com to learn more. Valid 416 to 54 and qualifying 2025 Neo QLED OLED in the frame TVs.

[David Rutherford]

With Vision AI while supplies last.

[Claude Ad]

See Samsung.com for terms and conditions. Vision AI features vary by model. Upscaling utilizes AI based formulas and results may vary based on source content. Translation accuracy not guaranteed.