Hour 1 - Fauci Pleads the 5th

Summary

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Hour 1 - Fauci Pleads the 5th
Date: July 29, 2026
Host: Clay Travis
Guest: Governor Ron DeSantis

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the congressional hearing where Dr. Anthony Fauci, the public face of America’s COVID-19 response, invoked the Fifth Amendment 111 times. Clay Travis uses the moment to express frustration at Fauci’s lack of accountability regarding pandemic policies and the long-term effects these decisions had on American society. Governor Ron DeSantis joins the show to provide his firsthand reaction, share historical context, and discuss the prospects of holding Fauci legally accountable. The episode is charged, combative, and seeks vindication for those skeptical of the COVID-19 policies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fauci’s Congressional Testimony: Fifth Amendment Invoked (03:13–06:05)

• Event Recap: Dr. Fauci appeared before a congressional committee led by Senator Rand Paul but declined to answer questions, citing his Fifth Amendment rights.
• Scope: Fauci invoked the Fifth 111 times, an act Clay describes as reflecting deep guilt or fear of perjury.
• Quote:
  • Fauci: “Under the advice of my attorneys, I will invoke my right under the fifth Amendment of the Constitution to refrain from answering your questions.” (05:43)

2. Frustration Over Unanswered Questions and Perceived Lies (01:47–03:13)

• Clay’s Monologue:
  • Travis recaps the perceived absurdities and intrusions during the pandemic—mask mandates, business closures, and losses suffered by everyday Americans.
  • He frames Fauci as “the stand in for the failures of COVID…the man more than any other who defended your constitutional liberties being taken away.”
• Tone: Outrage, vindication, sarcasm—especially in ridiculing the pandemic’s contradictory or arbitrary rules.

3. Senator Rand Paul’s Role and Fauci’s Diary (06:06–06:54)

• Fauci’s Personal Statement:
  • Accuses Paul of an “unhinged obsession” and frames the hearing as a political vendetta.
  • Claims personal attacks, including the release of his diary, are meant to entrap him.
• Clay’s Reaction: Views Fulton invoking the Fifth as an indirect admission of guilt: “I would be ashamed to take the Fifth Amendment in front of Congress.”

4. Highlighting the Absurdity: Senator Josh Hawley’s Basic Questions (08:42–10:00)

• Notable Moment: In a mocking tone, Senator Hawley asks Fauci basic questions (day of the week, tie color, carpet color) which Fauci also declines to answer.
• Quote:
  • Hawley: “What day of the week is it today?”
    Fauci: “On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer…” (09:10–09:22)
• Clay: Laughs at the notion that “he would have taken the Fifth for all of them.”

5. Attorney Disruption: Proceedings Descend into Chaos (11:06–12:43)

• Rand Paul:
  • Ejects Fauci’s attorney from the hearing for disruptive behavior and refusing to respect protocol.
• Clay Commentary: “This is the way Anthony Fauci wants to be remembered—for a lawyer not listening to the rules.”

6. Senator Bernie Moreno’s Confrontation and Emotional Appeal (13:02–15:12)

• Passionate Rebuke: Moreno lambasts Fauci for “disgraceful” actions during COVID and vows to hold Democratic defenders to account.
• Quote:
  • Moreno: “Who the [expletive] do you think you were for doing that? It is a total disgrace what you did to this country.” (13:05–13:12)
• Powerful Moment: Moreno asks affected audience members to stand and requests Fauci look at them. Fauci refuses.
• Quote:
  • “You can’t even look at them. There you have it.” (15:12)

7. Implications for Legal Accountability (18:33–19:45, 30:48–34:50)

• Federal vs. State Charges:
  • Clay explains the Biden pardon may only cover certain federal offenses up to Biden’s final day in office.
  • Discusses rare precedent of someone invoking the Fifth as many times as Fauci did (Teamsters’ Dave Beck, Johnny Dio, 1957).
• DeSantis Analysis:
  • Details hurdles for state-level prosecution: statutory limits, need to prove state law violations & jurisdiction, timing.
  • Warns listeners not to “hold your breath” for Fauci’s criminal accountability.
  • Quote:
    • “I think there was a window for that. I’m not sure that that window is open in a real meaningful way at this point.” (32:36-33:00)

8. DeSantis Reflects on Florida’s Dissent and Vindication (22:46–29:00)

• Early Opposition:
  • DeSantis recalls being a lone voice against Fauci’s mandates in early COVID days, suffering political backlash but later public vindication.
  • References Eisenhower’s warning of “policy hijacked by a scientific technological elite.”
• Personal Attacks in Fauci’s Diary:
  • Ashley Moody (FL AG) reads Fauci’s attacks on DeSantis (“total jerk,” “complete disgrace”).
  • DeSantis: “That is a badge of honor… great validation for what we were doing in those really dark days.” (25:47–26:08)
• DeSantis on Fauci’s Arrogance:
  • Fauci’s media status and authoritarian approach.
  • “He wanted my businesses closed… I blocked local governments from [mandates]… He wanted four- and five-year-old kids to have a mask on for eight hours a day. We put a stop to that.”

9. Future Political Outlook (34:50–38:06)

• DeSantis on What’s Next:
  • Focused on “running through the tape” as governor.
  • Takes pride in transforming Florida from a swing state to a Republican stronghold, credits resisting Fauci’s policies.
  • “If we allowed the state to become a Fauci-an dystopia... I don’t think Florida goes on this generational run.” (37:37–38:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Clay Travis (reflecting on the hearing):

  • “He took the Fifth Amendment 111 times in a hearing that just ended about an hour ago. If you did not hear that, overall, what I would say is, it’s hard to talk about that hearing without engaging in cursing because it was incredibly frustrating.” (04:21–04:36)

• Senator Bernie Moreno (addressing Fauci):

  • “Who the [expletive] do you think you were for doing that? It is a total disgrace what you did to this country.” (13:05–13:12)

• Florida Governor Ron DeSantis:

  • On Fauci’s attacks in his diary:
    • “That is a badge of honor. … To see that really was great validation for what we were doing during those really dark days.” (25:47–26:08)
  • On legal accountability:
    • “No one’s been more vocal against Fauci for years than me. I think he should have been held accountable… But I would not hold your breath.” (33:00–33:16)
  • On Florida’s COVID response vindication:
    • “If we allowed the state to become a Fauci and dystopia where people’s rights were curtailed… I don’t think Florida goes on this generational run.” (37:37–38:06)

• Senator Josh Hawley:

  • “What day of the week is it today?... What color tie are you wearing? ...What color is the carpet in front of you?” (09:00–09:20)

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Important Timestamps

• 05:40–06:05: Fauci’s prepared statement invoking the Fifth.
• 09:00–09:40: Senator Hawley’s mock basic questions.
• 13:05–13:12: Moreno’s direct attack—“Who the [expletive] do you think you were?”
• 14:14–15:12: Moreno’s call to victims in the audience and Fauci’s refusal to engage with them.
• 22:46–29:00: DeSantis details against Fauci, reflections on COVID battles and the state’s vindication.
• 30:48–34:50: DeSantis explains the legal hurdles to prosecuting Fauci at the state and federal level.
• 35:23–38:06: DeSantis discusses his legacy and Florida’s political realignment.

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Overall Tone and Language

• Unapologetically combative: Clay Travis and Ron DeSantis are blunt and direct; there is a tone of vindication and “I told you so” throughout.
• Mocking and sarcastic: Especially in references to Fauci’s refusal to answer basic questions and his celebrity-minded approach.
• Emotional, even raw: Senators and audience members express frustration and outrage for lost years, lost rights, and lack of accountability.
• Informative for the base: Listeners aligned against COVID measures are validated and galvanized.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

• This episode covers the historic spectacle of Dr. Fauci taking the Fifth in Congress, the political and emotional fallout, and the ongoing debate over accountability for pandemic-era decisions.
• Governor DeSantis offers both personal reflection and nuanced legal analysis, making it a must-listen for those interested in the legal, political, and cultural legacy of the COVID-19 response—and the ongoing battle over public memory and blame.

End of summary.

Transcript

[Clay Travis]

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[Ron DeSantis]

I'm gonna make him an offer he

[Clay Travis]

can't refuse with family. Cannolis and spins mean everything. Now you want to get mixed up

[Ron DeSantis]

in the family business.

[Clay Travis]

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[Ron DeSantis]

Although it pains me to do so

[Clay Travis]

because of the respect I have for the legislative branch of government and my decades long record of cooperating with Congress, under the advice of my attorneys, I will invoke my right under the fifth Amendment of the Constitution to refrain from answering your questions.

[Ron DeSantis]

Thank you.

[Clay Travis]

Okay, so that was Fauci beginning the statement. He also said that Rand Paul, quote, had an unhinged obsession with him. This is a little bit longer I'll cut out before he invokes his fifth. But I do want you to be able to hear effectively the only thing that Foushee said in this congressional hearing today. Greg, we can drop out. Team, we can drop out before we get to the end there. Here's cut to Given Senator Paul's obvious obsession with calling for my prosecution, his repeated slanderous comments about me, and recently his publicly releasing my unredacted personal diary aimed at embarrassing and intimidating me, the only conclusion I can reach is that the sole reason he is calling me before this committee is to get me to say something, anything that could vindicate a his repeated public pledges that I end up, in his words, quote, behind bars, unquote. Any reasonable person who has followed his unhinged obsession with me would readily come to the same conclusion. Therefore, that's why we could cut out here because we heard the end of that statement. I have testified in front of Congress twice. I have answered every question that I've been asked in front of Congress twice. I would be ashamed to take the Fifth Amendment in front of Congress because it would clearly be evidence that I didn't believe I could answer questions without being charged for crimes that I may have committed. That is, I think, the overriding lesson and story that came out of today. And here are a couple of other cuts. Now, once you knew that Anthony Fauci was going to take the Fifth Amendment for everything, I wish that a senator had just run through a litany of questions because Dr. Foushee said memorably, I am the science. I would love if a senator had decided, I'm just going to ask basic scientific questions of Dr. Fauci. Dr. Fauci, does water freeze at 32 degrees? Just a list of the most unquestioned basic scientific facts that we could have all run through. Is the human body typically 98.6 degrees? I mean, we could run through a litany of these. I think he would have taken the Fifth for all of them. I tweeted out that given that Anthony Fauci was clearly going to take the Fifth for, for everything, ridiculing him by asking very basic questions would be a good decision. And then I give credit to Missouri Senator Josh Hawley, who began his questions for Dr. Fauci, asking him, what day is it? What color tie are you wearing? And what color is the floor? Foushee took the Fifth for all of those questions as well. Cut seven. Well, nothing says honesty like taking the Fifth, huh, Doc? Let's try something. What day of the week is it today? On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. What color tie are you wearing? On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. What color is the carpet in front of you? On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. Let's just get one thing straight. You don't have any rights under the Fifth Amendment because you've been pardoned, as you very well know. Okay, so some of you reacted yesterday when I told you, hey, he's going to take the Fifth Amendment. Some of you reacted last night. I said the same thing on Jesse Waters Fox News show. By the way, Buck is going to be with us potentially before the end of the show. He had to, to be at a, I think I could say at a court proceeding relating to his homeowners association. He's on the board. It's not a very sexy case, but that is where he is. And trust me, he has made it quite clear he would much rather be here. But there a hearing that he's obligated to be at as a part of his homeowners association. And the fact that he's on the board there, he may come in later. If not, he'll be back tomorrow because I guarantee you he would be fired up to talk about all this. But we were breaking this down and I said he was going to take the Fifth Amendment. And some of you said, well, he can't take the Fifth Amendment because he's been pardoned, but he hasn't been pardoned beyond when Joe Biden left office. So if he committed perjury, as I think he likely would have unless he was for the first time completely honest in his testimony testimony, then he could be charged going forward with a crime you do not get typically when you are given a pardon it is for things that have occurred in the past. We haven't really litigated how far into the future it could go. But the Biden pardon for Fauci specifically only covered, I believe it was 2014 up to the final day that Joe Biden was in office. So Fauci still could bear criminal liability if he were to lie under oath. That's why he took the fifth. His attorneys, I guarantee you, all of whom he was paying over $1000 an hour to, he had them lined up behind them. They tried to make statements. They were not witnesses in the proceeding. Here is what that sounded like as the ridiculousness of this situation descended into even more absurdity. Rand Paul had to remove one of Fauci's attorneys, who disrupted the entire proceeding. The attorneys are not recognized. In fact, the attorney was told not to sit at the table, and he's not obeying that recommendation. There's a row behind you, sir. That's where you were told to sit, and you're not. And now you're disrupting the proceedings. And so, look, this is the way Anthony Fauci wants to be remembered for a lawyer not listening to the rules. That's the way you want to be remembered, and that's what you're going to do. You are not recognized, sir. Security, please remove him from the room. Okay, a couple of other cuts. I. I thought Senator Bernie Moreno of Ohio did a good job. We had to bleep this out. But here is cut eight. He, Senator Marino, clearly very fired up still, as many of us are about COVID Here is cut 8. It was about six years ago today that I decided I'm going to give up my businesses, sell them all, run

[Ron DeSantis]

for office, run for the United States Senate. Here I am sitting in front of

[Clay Travis]

you six years later saying, who the do you think you were for doing that? It is a total disgrace what you

[Ron DeSantis]

did to this country.

[Clay Travis]

And if my Democrat colleagues are standing there defending you, I hope the voters, the United States of America, watch the clips of every one of you doting on a guy who was more interested

[Ron DeSantis]

in being a celebrity than saving American people.

[Clay Travis]

I will make it my mission to make certain that every single one of

[Ron DeSantis]

those Democrats who did that will see

[Clay Travis]

that clip over and over and over again, because defending there is no defense of what you did. One more cut. Senator Moreno asked people behind who had been impacted in a very negative way, losing jobs potentially, among other things, over the COVID draconian rules that were put in place by Fauci and his allies. He asked Foushee to turn and look at the rows of the people in attendance who were persecuted for refusing to believe all of the COVID lies. Foushee would not turn and look at them. But I did think it was a powerful moment. On camera. That's cut nine. Can you do me a favor in

[Ron DeSantis]

the audience and stand up?

[Clay Travis]

If during the the time of the COVID pandemic, you were called a racist for calling the virus a Wuhan virus

[Ron DeSantis]

or the China virus, if you thought

[Clay Travis]

the six foot rule was total crap,

[Ron DeSantis]

if you thought the vaccine wasn't something

[Clay Travis]

that you should take, if you thought it was outrageous the way the mask

[Ron DeSantis]

policy was rolled out, if you were

[Clay Travis]

fired from your job for not taking that vaccine, including members of the military, if you thought closing schools was catastrophically

[Ron DeSantis]

stupid and that you thought that during

[Clay Travis]

these times saying these things made you

[Ron DeSantis]

somehow a Lesser Human being, Dr. Fletcher, can you just turn around and look

[Clay Travis]

at the people behind you? You're not willing to do that. That's not a question. It's not a question to your lawyers. Not a question. It's a request. All you have to do is look up from your lawyers and look at

[Ron DeSantis]

the people who were absolutely shamed for

[Clay Travis]

saying what we know now to be the truth. You can't even look at them. There you have it. I'm going to take your calls. You may have a lot of questions. 800-282-2882. Reminder, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis scheduled to be on with us at the bottom of the hour. I would just suggest that you might want to get your popcorn for that one because of all the people out there in the political realm that are furious with Dr. Fauci and what he did, Rand Paul may well be at the top of the list. If he's number one on that list. You might have to put Ron DeSantis at 1A or 1B because I think there's a lot of animus there as well. All that's still to come. I'll answer your questions, but I want to tell you too often these days when we mention Israel, it's often political. We don't talk enough about the people living there. Israel has a relatively small population, just 11 million people, 9 million of whom are of the Jewish faith. The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, nonprofit organization dedicated to helping the vulnerable parts of that population. For 40 plus years, they've built a bridge of support between Christians in this nation and Jews in Israel to honor the promise found in the Bible. The IFCJ is on the ground in Israel. Their team delivers food, cares for the displaced, the elderly, and reminds them they're not alone. I have seen it for myself all of the great work they do on the ground. Your donations allow them to provide help, support and resources. I've seen it firsthand. You can help in any number of ways, prayer, donations or with advocacy. Right now, Visit the website Pray I F CJ.org that's Pray P R A Y Pray I F C J.org Laugh, learn and hang with the guys Clay and Buck preset on the I Heart app what God started in my life he's going to finish the Joel Osteen Daily Podcast. Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life. What was meant for my harm. Lord, I want to thank you. Right now you're turning to my advantage. Your daily source of hope and encouragement. Your second wind is on its way. God is about to breathe on your life in a new way. Listen to the Joel Osteen Daily podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts and wherever you get your favorite podcasts, this episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. At Navy Federal, they want you to know that if you need a positive sign towards achieving your goal of home ownership, this is it. Because even though today's housing market may seem discouraging, the Homebuyer's Choice Loan offers members down payment options as low as 0% with no required private mortgage insurance. Look for your sign today. Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Equal Housing Lender. Terms and conditions apply. Loans subject to approval and eligibility requirements. Learn more@navy federal.org Zerodown brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union how to have fun anytime, anywhere. Step 1 Go to chumbacasino.com chumbacasino.com Got it. Step 2 Collect your welcome bonus. Come to papa. Welcome bonus. Step 3 Play hundreds of casino style games for free. That's a lot of games all for free.

[Ron DeSantis]

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[Clay Travis]

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Visit chumbacasino.com no purchase necessary. VGW Group void where prohibited by law. 21/ Terms and conditions apply. Welcome back in Clay and Buck. All right, I'm down in Florida right now. We're going to be joined by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis shortly. One of the biggest questions that I think a lot of you have in the wake of Dr. Anthony Fauci taking the Fifth Amendment 111 times today is what happens next. What is the potential that Fauci could face charges? It's a great question. I think that the first of all, they're going to refer him for contempt for refusing to answer questions. You do have a right to invoke your Fifth Amendment protection. So I, I think it's going to be difficult to hold someone in contempt for uttering your Fifth Amendment in invoking your Fifth Amendment right that many times. By the way, I did ask Grok, how many times have there been, has there been a situation where someone has invoked their Fifth Amendment rights 111 or more times? According to Grok, there are only two recorded instances that they could find and I am not familiar candidly with either of these. Two documented cases exceed 111. Teamsters President Dave Beck did it 117 times. Labor figure Johnny Dio 140 times back in 1957. So there are not very many times that someone has invoked their Fifth Amendment rights this many times. So I think the question is going to move to the states, given that Biden has provided a federal pardon, that is you cannot be charged with federal crimes. Again, this is presuming that the Fauci pardon is valid. There are many questions about the validity of the Biden pardons in general, as we all know, so I'm presuming that they are valid. The question that is out there is could a state charge Fauci with any crimes? Ron DeSantis, really smart legal mind. I will ask him his thoughts on how Fauci could be held accountable legally here in just a couple of minutes when he joins me at the bottom of the hour. But I think to a large extent that is where much of the conversation is going to move now, even though you could arguably try to get a contempt citation, Fauci showed up and took his Fifth Amendment, invoked it. I think it's going to be hard to argue that he committed a crime in doing that, which is why I told you yesterday this is exactly what I expected him to do. In a recent industry survey, Pure Talk was the only wireless company to receive five stars in every category. Coverage, support, value, data. Right now, Pure Talk has an invitation for you. Switch to Pure Talk for just 15 bucks a month for a limited time, any plan, including the top shift shelf, unlimited data plans, just 15 bucks a month for your first three months. No contract needed. Just an insanely low offer to switch to a top rated company. Pure Talk can save the average family of four over a thousand dollars in a year and they have a dedicated US Customer service team, so they keep your jobs right here at home. There's no better wireless choice out there than pure talk for just 15 bucks a month. Get signed up now. I have it for my family, my two oldest boys. You can join the Travis family. Dial pound two five zero from your cell phone. Say Clay and Buck. That's pound two five zero. Say Clay and Buck. Welcome back in Clay and Buck, joined now by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. Appreciate him joining us. I said as part of the prelude, Governor DeSantis, that you and Rand Paul have to be at the very top of the Fauci disdain list. You clearly not a big fan of Fauci. He's not a fan of yours. What's your reaction to Fauci taking the Fifth Amendment 111 times today in the hearing in front of Senator Rand Paul and others just a little bit ago?

[Ron DeSantis]

Well, it's validation of the criticism that. That particularly I lodged against him, really, in the very early days of COVID I mean, after we got into six, eight weeks of this, it was clear that he had a political agenda, and it wasn't an agenda that was reflective in the underlying data. Now, my voice at the time was very lonely. Fauci was viewed basically as a demigod because of how the media treated him. Even most Republican voters thought Fauci was the end all, be all. And so we bucked him on businesses, being open, schools being open, all these other things. And he would actually come down to Florida and do hits on local news stations attacking what we were doing. But at the end of the day, we probably suffered politically in the short term for being vocal against Fauci, but it was the right thing to do. And now people look back and no one wants to be associated with the things that Fauci did. You know, there was a snippet from Dwight Eisenhower's farewell address. A lot of people remember that for his warnings about the military industrial complex, which were very prescient. But he talked about as science and some of these crafts got more intertwined with government, that you could have policy hijacked by a scientific technological elite. And if you go back and look at that farewell address and given in 1961, he was basically predicting what would happen with somebody like Fauci. So I think the destruction that he was really responsible for, you know, doesn't have very much peer in modern American history.

[Clay Travis]

Senator Ashley Moody, now of Florida, she was in your administration. She was on this committee. She asked Fauci a question. Of course, he took the fifth 111 times today. But she specifically referenced you and the fact that Fauci took a lot of shots at you in his 1100 page diary. I don't know if you've heard this yet, but I want to let you hear what she said earlier today at the hearing. And then I want to get your reaction to Fauci going after you as often as he did in the diary. Here is that clip. A bit earlier today you called our governor, Governor DeSantis, and I'm going to quote this so I get it right, right out of your journals.

[Ron DeSantis]

A total jerk.

[Clay Travis]

That he is a complete disgrace. That he is blocking local authorities from mandating masks in various locations, including schools. And you were very concerned and upset that we were actively, and I'm going

[Ron DeSantis]

to quote, criticizing you.

[Clay Travis]

And we talk to her virtually every

[Ron DeSantis]

day about being wrong on everything.

[Clay Travis]

Okay, so Fauci called you, among other things, a jerk and a disgrace in his Dear Diary entries. Probably worse things as well. What's your reaction to that?

[Ron DeSantis]

That is a badge of honor. I didn't necessarily think he had a different view of me that was in those diaries, but to see that really was great validation for what we were doing during those really dark days. And so I couldn't be more happy to see that that's how he did it. But he had this very arrogant view that he was the equivalent of science and so that his edicts should have no criticism, regardless of what the data said, regardless of what the study said. Once he made his pronouncements, you were just supposed to sit there and take it? Well, he wanted my businesses closed. Yes. He wanted local governments to enforce mandates of mask, including having police enforce this. I blocked local governments from doing that. I blocked schools from enforcing mask mandates on kids under our parents bill of rights. He wanted these four and five year old kids to have a mask on for eight hours a day. We put a stop to that. And so, yeah, we were totally contrary to what he was saying. He didn't. He took very personal umbrage at that. But it just shows the hubris that this guy had. He really. You know, there's a saying when back in my baseball days, Clay, you've probably heard it, don't read your own press clippings because you can go hit three home runs in a game, the minute you start getting high in your own supply, it's almost just like karma and cosmic justice that if you start inhaling those fumes, you're going to go 0 for 4. You'll have a golden sombrero, you'll start performing poorly. So you're never supposed to do that. Not only did Fauci read his own press clippings, I mean, this fueled him every day to be a celebrity and to bash that he was one of the most notable people in the entire world, that he's getting calls from singers and actors and all these other things. And that was part of the reason why, because we could go back to March of 2020, his 15 days, to slow the spread. You know, that was bad policy. Everything that flowed from that was bad. But certainly after six weeks, eight weeks, three months, the data was very clear. And Fauci clung to the lockdowns. He clung to mandates and restrictions. And I think the reason is, or one reason is, is he didn't want to admit he was wrong. But he also knew that if he continued with the hysteria, he was going to be on CNN and ABC and all these places more and more. If he said, hey, Florida's right. People need to get back to living, take individual precautions and we'll work to get therapeutics out like the regeneron that we used to help people with the monoclonals. But that would have made him no longer be such a center of attention. So there was a lot of vanity at stake here. And he seemed to care more about his own celebrity than he did about the well being of people who were, who were really hurting because of the policies he was recommending.

[Clay Travis]

We're talking to Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. I am on the Florida Gulf coast right now. I want to give you credit on this. In May of 2020, we spend a lot of time here. I brought my family down. Schools were shut down. You allowed all the restaurants to be back open. You can get. People can go look this up on Twitter. I took my kids out for dinner on cinco de Mayo 2020 to a Mexican restaurant just close to where I'm broad from right now on the Florida Gulf Coast. Everybody thought we were going to die. And the comments you could still go see. Oh, my goodness. How dare you be indoors at a restaurant. The results, however, for Florida are incredible. Over time, people have decided to come to the free state of Florida. You deserve a tremendous amount of credit for it. I think you handled Covid better than any governor in the country. And frankly, I think Your win in 2018 is one of the most consequential and significant wins that we have ever seen of any governor. Now with all that praise there, I want to then go to this question. The number One question we're getting now, you've got a great legal background. I'm sure you've thought about it quite a lot. There obviously are questions about whether the pardon that was granted by Joe Biden is valid. Let's, for this purpose, presume that it is, which is why Fauci took the fifth to try to avoid any perjury charges going forward. Are there opportunities or possibilities for states such as Florida to charge under state law, someone like Dr. Fauci, who otherwise seems like he may escape all consequences of a criminal nature on a federal level, could states act? If not states, what pathways, if any, might you see to holding him accountable for what I think are quite clearly many lies that he has told over the last several years, among others?

[Ron DeSantis]

Well, a couple things. One is, if you've been given a pardon, you typically then don't go invoke the fifth Amendment. You actually can be compelled to testify if you don't have an underlying legal risk from the conduct at issue. So the fact that he took the fifth amendment either means he's subject to contempt of Congress, which they could potentially pursue, or he's acknowledging that Biden's pardon didn't necessarily cover all the potential lines of inquiry. So that's more of a federal question there. Now, the question on the states is this. You would have to have two things. One, and it would need to be a state attorney general, like the governor, like in Florida, you know, we don't bring cases. I'm not a prosecutor. I'm the chief executive. You have state potential with an attorney general. You also have local district attorneys. In Florida, we call state attorneys. Now, what you would need is one, you would need to have violations of state law. So when he was testifying years ago, and a lot of us think he perjured himself in front of Congress, that wouldn't implicate state law. If there are things he was doing during COVID that would implicate state law, then you potentially could do it. But then you would also have to have personal jurisdiction. So there needs to be a nexus between him and a given state. Now, he did travel to Florida. I know. What was his conduct when he was here? I'm not sure. And then finally, the statute of limitations, you know, most of his offending conduct was 2020 and 2021. Well, we're in 2026. Most statute of limitations is five years. So I think that there's going to be a lot of significant hurdles to do it. I think the time to do have done Fauci was to do it when it was hot. You know, back in that 20, 20, 2021 time period at the federal level, that was where clearly the offenses would implicate federal law. You wouldn't have to try to do state law on that. But what I would just tell people is this. No one's been more vocal against Fauci for years than me. I think he should have been held accountable. Hell, I ran saying we were going to hold them accountable. So it's a very important thing to me. But I also just would tell people, I would not hold your breath, that you're going to see any type of major accountability. I just think there was a window for that. I'm not sure that that window is open in a real meaningful way at this point. I hope I'm wrong about that. Don't get me wrong. But if you're going to do a state level, you have to get either the attorney general of the state or one of the local district attorneys, and they do have to establish both personal jurisdiction and state, not federal, law violations. You would not be able to pursue charges on federal law in a state court. And then finally, I think people just need to understand when you're talking about swamp creatures like Fauci, we have a huge asymmetry in our system right now because somebody like Fauci, even if they would have brought a case against him three or four years ago, if he's in front of a D.C. jury, do you think that the people that sit on that D.C. jury are going to view Fauci the way we do? No, they're probably going to view him with probably reverence. And so getting a jury that would be willing to hold him accountable is much more difficult in D.C. if you're going after a swamp creature. If you go after someone who challenges the swamp in D.C. it'll be 15 minutes, the jury will be out, and then they'll come back with a guilty verdict. It's not representative of the country as a whole. And I think Congress should look at ways to make when people who are part of the federal government are committing offenses in D.C. that there's the opportunity to have a jury that's more representative of the American people.

[Clay Travis]

Last question for you. You've been one of the most successful governors, I think, in the history of gubernatorial reigns. Your time in governor is coming to a close in January of 2029. I know the primary process is underway. Florida's got to decide who's next. When do you decide what's next for you? What do you look forward to In January of 2029, when you are no longer governor, what's your time frame? What do you expect? Sorry, January of 2027, already jumping ahead. Next president will come in in January of 2029, which you may be somewhat interested in. What's next for you?

[Ron DeSantis]

Yeah, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. I mean, we're in the middle of hurricane season now, knock on wood. We didn't have an impact last year. Hopefully we don't have one again. But we take that very seriously and we work very hard to make sure we handle those with skill and rapid. I also have other things I'm still bringing in for a landing. You know, you sometimes hear certain headlines about like some signing a bill or this or that, but you got to bring that stuff into fruition. So we'll be running through the tape. Then when we get on the other side of that, you know, we'll worry about it. But what I would say to people is just Florida, if you're, if you're conservative, Florida should offer you a lot of hope. Because when I got elected, we were a swing state. These races statewide would be decided by 1 percentage point. Usually I won by less than 1 percentage point. But I came in and I said, I'm going to be bold. I'm going to do things that I believe in. I'm not going to trim my sails. And you know what, the people will respond to that. And if they don't, that's fine, but I'm going to be the genuine article. And so we did that. Fast forward four years later, we win by 20 point victory, biggest victory any Republicans won in the history of governor's races in our state. And then now, when I started, we had a Democrat registration advantage for voters of a few hundred thousand. Now we have 1.5 million more registered Republicans than Democrats. And so it shows you people do respond to leadership. When you fly a banner of bold colors rather than pale pastels, people want to see that contrast. And we've been able to draw the contrast. So, you know, you'll look at some of these other states and they've had trouble and people get frustrated with the politics and there's things to get frustrated about, don't get me wrong, but it can be done. And if we were sitting on this show in August of 2018 when I was competing for that first governor's race and I made those predictions to you, you would not have believed it and nobody in your audience would have believed it. And yet here we are, having gone on a really generational run. And, and just to tie the bow with the Fauci thing, I don't think Florida goes on this generational run had we allowed the state to become a Fauci and dystopia where people's rights were were curtailed and their livelihoods were destroyed. So of all the things we did, I can list 100 things that I think have moved the needle and have been good. I think that was the most important because it was unpopular when I was doing it. We took a lot of incoming, a lot of criticism, particularly from national media. But we held our ground, wrote it out, and I think the rest is history.

[Clay Travis]

Congrats on a great run. I know I saw you up at Mount Rushmore Telephone Family. Hi. And we look forward to seeing what you got coming up next. Thanks, Governor.

[Ron DeSantis]

Thanks.

[Clay Travis]

That's Governor Ron DeSantis. We'll be back breaking all this down and more on Clay and Buck. Level up your brain and balance out your day with the right amount of information and entertainment. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back in Clay and Buck. Appreciate all of you hanging out with us. A lot of people wanting to react to Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. We just finished talking with him. We will take some of those calls at the top of the next hour. We'll also get to all of your Talk Back a ton of different stories there. I want to tell you if you are out there right now and you are trying to make a difference when it comes to your cost of doing business, when it comes to your insurance needs, that's exactly what super sure is designed to do. If you have 25 or more employees and you are trying to ensure that you are not spending far too much for far too little in coverage, you need to go to Super Sure. Maintaining Business Insurance Cost of doing Business but do you have too much insurance? That is a big challenge. If Your company has 25 or more employees. Whether you're the owner, the CFO, the HR manager, it can be too complicated to just buy a policy online. You want to talk to someone and understand what you're buying. Super sure is the super agency built for business owners. It's licensed in every state for your business insurance and employee benefits, all with year round support. You can get hooked up and understand the plain English that makes such a huge difference to understanding all of these policies. We have a fine print facts tool at super sure.com@super sure.com Clay There is no cost you just find out whether this makes the right sense for you. Do you have too many policies all rolled into one? Super sure. Can save you a bundle. Supersure.com play.