Clay Travis (4:48)

Okay, so let's dive into this. You mentioned people who own stocks right now, which is a huge percentage of us. Yeah, huge percentage of our audience out there, either in pensions, 401ks, or people buying and selling individual stocks. What would you tell people who are nervous, apprehensive, maybe pay attention to stock prices only when they're really kind of popping in one way or the other. How should they handle emotional reactions to valuations on the stock market from your perspective as a highly trained, highly successful economist?

Stephen Moore (5:25)

Well, I'm an economist. I'm not a financial analyst. And sometimes, sometimes economists are not great stock pickers. Some of the greatest economists who ever lived was Milton Friedman, and he was terrible at stock investing. So, yeah, I'll say that as a prelude to the advice I'm going to give to your listeners is really pretty straightforward. And I think almost every financial analyst would agree with me. It's called stocks for the long run.

Clay Travis (5:52)

Yeah.

Stephen Moore (5:52)

So in other words, if you're investing for, you know, for returns five years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, depending on what your age is, you want to be in the American stock market. It goes up. It goes up. Now, that doesn't mean that you get these kind of downturns, but the real rate of return of the US Stock market since the New York Stock Exchange opened its doors is like 7%.

Clay Travis (6:14)

Yep.

Stephen Moore (6:15)

So what I'm saying is if you don't have to take your money out, if you're not cash squeezed right now, keep it in the market because it's going to do well over time. And again, I'm not saying a year from now, maybe a year from now, it may be a little bit lower. What I'm saying is I feel very, very strongly that three years now, five years from now, you're going to get a nice return on your money. And if anything, I'd be buying stock right now, not selling it.

Clay Travis (6:39)

Okay, let's go into China in particular, because this is obviously now the focus based on the way the President has responded with yesterday's news. He really has isolated China tariffs up now to 145% on China. From your perspective, what does a fair economic deal with China look like?

Stephen Moore (7:01)

Well, China cheats. They steal. They steal our intellectual property, they steal our patents. It is a very predatory nation. So I think we have to be very tough with China. And by the way, you're talking to a guy who's a free trader. You know, I like free trade. I'm not a big fan of tariffs. I agree with 80% of what Trump is doing. I'm not a huge fan of terrorists. The only thing I would fault Trump on is that I think we should. You know, why is he going after Canada and some of our allies? We really have to focus on China and that. I think that's where he is right now. So that's the issue. I mean, come on, China's on the verge of possibly invading Taiwan. They're building up their military in a very aggressive way. They don't. Their tariffs are three to four times higher than ours are. And I want to make sure that your listeners understand this. You know, I do a Lot of, I'm doing like the BBC. I do a lot of like media in like Europe and Japan. You know, they're interested what Trump's going to do and they're so self, and they're self righteous and they're, they're like, why is Trump doing this? He's starting a trade war. And I said, wait a minute, what are you people talking about? We have the lowest tariffs in the world. Their, their terrorists are higher than ours. So how can they say we're starting a trade war?

Clay Travis (8:22)

No, it's a fantastic question, one we've been asking on this program for some time. Okay, so you in general are a free trader. There is a tension and it certainly has been, I think exposed to some degree between say, Elon Musk, who is more of a free trader than not, and Peter Navarro, who is very much not a free trader. So here is the challenge, so far as I can see it is you, you kind of have a schism, for lack of a better way to describe it. What Trump is advocating for on one hand is free trade. And yesterday talking with Art Laffer, I said free trade with Europe can make sense. Japan, South Korea, so called good actors. Right. For lack of a better way to describe it.

Douglas Murray (9:02)

Right.

Clay Travis (9:02)

Then there are, I think it's fair to say, bad actors. And China would be the most prominent and powerful among them. How do you balance the free trade perspectives with a country that is not committed to free trade and end up with a deal that makes sense across the board from your perspective?

Stephen Moore (9:19)

Well, that's a great question. And I'll, I'm going to give you a kind of historical parallel. You know, in the 1930s, you know, we were pretty free trade country and we were trading with Japan, you know, we, we almost literally sold them the lead and the steel that they use for the bombs that they dropped on Pearl Harbor. So that was kind of a dumb thing to do. And so do we, do we really want to do that again with China? I say no. I think we need to really be very cautious about China. I also like, and by the way, Trump has changed my mind a little bit on this stuff. I've watched him in action. I used to be like a unilateral free trader. We should have low tariffs no matter what other countries do. I no longer believe that. I think Trump is right. That, look, I like this idea of reciprocity. If you're going to hit, if you're going to hit us in the nose with a 20% tariff, you know what we're going to hit you in the nose. And if you keep it up, you know, we're going to ratchet it. I think at the end of the day, I really believe this, that Trump is going to force these other countries to play by the rules, create a level playing field that benefits everyone.

Clay Travis (10:25)

Okay, we're talking with Stephen Moore, Trump economic adviser, very successful economist. Let me ask you this question. Big picture. I'm sure you remember this. Well, I was a young guy at the time, but in the 1980s, those of us who remember the 1980s, the idea was Japan was going to buy up everything. Their economy was on fire. They were growing like crazy. And there was a great deal of fear about Japanese ownership of American assets. Now, 40 years later, the Japan economy's around the same size, ish, at least according to the stock market. Is China somewhat like Japan, where you're gonna see this massive growth and then they're kind of gonna run into a wall? Now, here we know the demographics. China's population is likely begun to decline. You know, there are also. It's getting more expensive to make goods in China, which is how, as economies rise, the expectation of workers increases. Do you see a parallel potentially between the rapid rise that we saw with Japan and then the plateau with what we have seen with China as well?

Stephen Moore (11:30)

Yeah, and even more so. Look, China, ha. China is a centrally planned economy that is run by their government. It is run out of Beijing. One lesson of history. You're a historian. I am a bit too. One of the most important lessons of economic history is that central planning does not work.

Clay Travis (11:49)

Right, right.

Stephen Moore (11:50)

It does not work. It didn't work for the Soviet Union. It's not going to work for China. So China's economy will implode. And I'm not saying it's going to happen next year, but it will implode. It's going to happen because, you know, we have a free enterprise system where we let capital markets and our small businessmen and women make the decisions. They have the government making the decision. Who are you going to bet on?

Clay Travis (12:10)

No, I agree. Okay, so let me ask you this last question. I appreciate the time. I know how busy you are doing interviews all over the world. Who has more short term pressure on them in a tariff war, by your analysis, China or the United States, whose economy suffers more as we go back and forth, stare each other down?

Stephen Moore (12:29)

Well, Barrett, look, you know, when we sneeze, China catches pneumonia. They have to trade with us. If we. If we stopped at trading with China, it would hurt our economy, but their economy would Go into a Great depression. That's, that's the leverage that we have over China. And Trump is playing that card. But it's a complicated question because they don't face elections. Yes, President Xi, what's going to stop him? He may be willing to throw his economy into a depression. You know, luckily we are a democratic country. And so, you know, our pain threshold is probably a lot less than theirs are because they're run by a dictator, no doubt.

Clay Travis (13:05)

Well, that's an interesting way of contemplating it. What do I know? I said last question. But what do you think Chairman Z is hearing and thinking as this process plays out? I think a lot of people can get into Trump's mind and understand the United States perspective. What do you think the China perspective is right now?

Stephen Moore (13:21)

I think they're scared. You know, it's not being covered by the media, but their market has fallen much more than ours has. Yeah, you know, they're, they're facing, they are facing a very, very severe recession. So I think they're freaked out right now. They don't know how to deal with Trump. I think Trump is, has the upper hand here. And I'm going to bet on Trump in America, not China.

Clay Travis (13:39)

Stephen Moore, I loved the editorial that you and Art Laffer pinned for the Wall Street Journal. We appreciate you coming on. And Art, again, I need to text him to thank him for coming on yesterday. We appreciate your expertise and anytime you want to come on, let us know.

Stephen Moore (13:54)

Okay, thanks so much. Take care.

Clay Travis (13:55)

It's great. I mean, you just heard from two of the most prominent economists in the world, frankly, in the last two days here. I'll take some of your questions. By the way, the cabinet meeting continuing right now. As I am looking up, Elon Musk is attending the cabinet meeting and speaking. It is live right now on CNN and Fox News. We are monitoring it and we will bring you whatever we have got in terms of news there. Look, you know, I was down with Buck last week in Miami and went over to his place and his awesome wife Carrie and, and he, you know what we did? We had steaks. They came from good ranchers and they were absolutely fantastic. I've talked about this. My wife does a great job cooking steaks for the boys. The Travis boys are big fans of steaks. They are rapidly growing. If you got young kids, 17, 14 and 10 are my three boys. They eat a lot of food and they love all of the good ranchers food that is coming to our doors, whether it's chicken, whether it's steak, whether it's salmon, even chicken nuggets for the 10 year old who thinks chicken nuggets are the greatest thing that have ever existed. If you got a 10 year old, you probably know what I'm talking about. They will ship this overnight box. Right amount of dry ice, careful packaging, I got to tell you, free of antibiotics and seed oil. These are American Rancher produced products that are being brought right to your table. You're gonna love them. You can pick the perfect package for your family. Goodranchers.com go online. You can select exactly the food that you want coming to your house again. Could be the cowboy box, the tailgate, even the family feast bundle. They even have some designed already for you which have been very popular with families across the nation. If you put my name Clay in, you get $40 off. Free bacon, ground beef, chicken nuggets or salmon for a year as well when you make your purchase plus $40 off again. It's a heck of an offer. Go to goodranchers.com code clay shop, subscribe and stand with American Ranchers. We love it on our table in the Travis household. Just had it with Buck down in Miami. Trust me, you're going to love these guys. Great American owned business using great American Ranchers. The best possible food direct to your family. Good ranchers.com code clay. Great offer. $40 off when you go to Good Ranchers. American meat delivered. Stories of freedom, stories of America. Inspirational stories that unite us all each day. Spend time with Clay and Buck. Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back in Clay Travis Buck Sexton show. I appreciate all of hanging out with us. Terrence, let me hit a quick call here. Terrence in Santa Rosa Beach, Florida. Love it down there. Terrence, what you got for us?

Stephen Moore (16:52)

Hey, actually it's the Republic of West.

Clay Travis (16:55)

Florida, but that's a great republic by the way. So far as I'm concerned, I got a place on 38.

Stephen Moore (17:03)

They're doing a lot of stories of Schumer and Pelosi about what they said in the past. Well, Barack Obama in March of 2009 said, I think it's a good time to buy.

Clay Travis (17:16)

I thank you for the call. If the president tells you not to buy stocks, you should be nervous because it would mean that he knows. Thank you for the call but the whole idea. He's reacting to the ladies on the View saying Trump should be charged with insider trading. If the president's not telling you it's a good time to buy stocks, you should Be nervous because anybody who believes in the future of America, I think should be buying and holding stocks for the long term. And you know what else I want you to do? Buy Crockett Coffee. I bet Buck is gonna need Crockett Coffee an absolute massive amount. Anybody out there who hasn't had a kid and then you had the kid, bet your coffee consumption's gonna go up a little bit. Um, and in fact, their Crockett Coffee is stacked high inside of Buck and Carrie's place. I. But I bet their coffee consumption is about to skyrocket. We're waiting on Baby News. Continue to update you as that plays out. But in the meantime, you can go to crockettcoffee.com you can put in code book and you'll get an autographed copy of my book. I've been signing them as I was watching March Madness. A bunch of them. Signed the lovely Katie, who's been working with me for a decade. She has got a baby boy herself. She has been using a lot of the Crockett coffee as well. But she is getting all those books and she is making sure that they are all headed out to you. Signed directly from my house, shipped to your house. When you sign up for Crockett Coffee, I guarantee you're gonna love it. It's the coffee company that loves America as much as you do and loves American history as much as you do. We come back, we'll talk with our friend Douglas Murray. By the way, crockettcoffee.com code book we'll talk with Douglas Murray when we come back. He is a brilliant analyst of everything that's going on in the world. Good history background, good economics background, and a good background on understanding Western civilization and the importance of standing for good over evil. We will talk about his latest book when we return right here. Thanks for hanging with us on Clay and Buck. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton on the front lines of truth. Welcome back in Clay Travis, Buck Sexton show. Appreciate all of you hanging out with us. We are joined now by a author journalist all around, incredibly talented guy, Douglas Murray. New book on democracies and death. Israel and the future of civilization. We appreciate you coming on. For those of you watching on video, the book is up beside me. Let's start right here. I got to go to Israel in December for the first time ever. I went to the kibbutzes on the border with Gaza. I went all the way to the north and Lebanon. I was blown away by the concept, which I should have understood before. But I didn't until I stood on the ground that Israel really is the front line of Western civilization. If it falls, then Western civilization is in trouble. I know this is a big part of the book argument you make, but do people really understand the stakes, the consequences of what's going on in the Middle east, and more alarmingly, the fact that a lot of people in America and other Western civilizations have lost the ability to distinguish between good and evil?

Douglas Murray (20:33)

It's very good to be with you and your listeners again. Firstly, the book is an attempt to describe the atrocities of 7th October, 2023, how they came about, what happened. I've been there in the zone of the conflict for most of the last year and a half. And so it's a firsthand account as well as an attempt to write a first draft of history about the atrocities of that day. But the other thing that the book is really about is a much bigger question. It's the one, as you say, that affects us here in America and the rest of the west, which is why, when a democracy, an ally of ours, was attacked so brutally, with 1200 people massacred, 250 innocent civilians taken hostage, why did so many people here in America side not with the democracy, but with the death cult of Hamas? And I come to not just ask the question, but also I hope to try to answer it. And one of the things that we've seen and I relate, I saw it straight away, early on, on 8 October, as the massacre was still going on in Times Square in New York, I saw the demonstration of people supporting terrorists, supporting Hamas. In the year and a half since, we've seen this disgusting outburst of hatred against the Jewish state and against the Jewish people. Just two days ago at Princeton University, Jewish students were screamed at by other students telling them to go home. The reason, in part, as you know, and you've covered so well on your show, is that we have lived through an era in which America, the West, all of our allies are seen as the bad guys over and over again. And if I have a rule that I've developed in the last year and a half, wherever I've gone in America, when I see an anti Israel protest, I notice that they fly the Palestinian flag. They may fly the flag of Hamas or Hezbollah or one of these other terrorist groups, they never fly the American flag. In fact, when they find an American flag, they'll burn it. Compare it with the pro Israel demonstrations that have happened. They always have the flying of the Israeli flag and the flying of the American flag. And the singing of the Star Spangled Banner and more. The people who have been most vocal against Israel since the massacre are people who have also told us that they hate Israel first, but they hate America and the west most. And anyone who thinks that that is some kind of hyperbole, just consider that the student group at Columbia most supportive of Hamas says in its founding statements that it seeks as its aim the, quote, complete destruction of Western civilization. The complete destruction of. Of Western civilization. They see Israel as being the nearest targets, as Hamas does, but not the last targets.

Clay Travis (23:46)

Why do you think young people, compared to older people in the United States in particular, are so susceptible to the argument that Israel is a force for evil and that in some way the Palestinians or the larger Middle Eastern community is a source of good, even in the wake of October 7th? Why has that worked with so many young people?

Douglas Murray (24:12)

I believe because they've been prepared for this moment very carefully, for years. I said in my last book, the War on the west, that Americans, this generation of Americans coming up, were being taught hatred of America and hatred of the West. We have seen America, the whole great history of America, rewritten in recent years. Students and others told that to be an American is to be born into guilt, to inherit the guilt of slavery, of white supremacy, of colonialism, of genocide, and much more. Look at what the pro Hamas, anti Israel demonstrators on American campuses accuse Israel of. They accuse Israel, completely false, as falsely against America. They accused Israel today of genocide, of ethnic cleansing, of white supremacy, and of all of the sins that they have been told they themselves, as Americans born in the 21st century, are guilty of. This is what a psychologist would call projection on a massive scale. Tell me what you accuse the Jewish state of and I'll tell you what you've been taught that you are guilty of.

Clay Travis (25:30)

We're talking to Douglas Murray. The book is on democracy and death, Israel and the future of civilization. What should happen? You know, we've heard a lot from people in the Trump era talking about the right and wrong side of history. If you can see the massacre of Jews, the worst day since the Holocaust on October 7th, and not recognize what the right and wrong side of history is, how do we rectify that? What should people who are smart enough to know better be doing?

Douglas Murray (26:04)

Well, I believe that young people in the west, not just America, but principally America, but also I've seen this in the last year and a half in Australia and Canada, in Britain and elsewhere, they've been taught into this Western self hatred and hatred. Now that's been taught Older generations of American do not hate America because they weren't taught to hate America. Older generations of Americans don't hate other democracies because they weren't taught to hate other democracies. Part of this generation, not all of them, there are some great young people coming up, but part of this generation has been taught this hatred. I believe that it is going to require a generation to teach them out of it.

Clay Travis (26:52)

I think that's well said. We're talking to Douglas Murray. The book I encourage you to all to go check it out is on democracies and death cults. It's out right now. You mentioned younger generations and the need to teach them about what actually has taken place. How much of this is the perverse idea that you built on here that white people are to blame for everything and that Jewish people are just seen as white? And therefore, in the left wing, anti American and anti Western perspective, there is no ability to grapple with the idea that someone who is of lighter skin could actually be a victim here. I mean, it, I think, is partly a function of just the broken worldview at play.

Douglas Murray (27:39)

I think you're completely right. The thing that this generation has been taught, the thing that has been across our media, whether it's the New York Times 60 project, whether it's radical Democrats talking about white guilt and all of this sort of thing, always the Jews were going to become a victim of this. And sure enough, the people who believe they're against racism are accusing again, it goes back to this thing. It's a mirror of their own sins, as they've been told them. Always they accuse Israel of white supremacy. I mean, you've been there like me. It's one of the most ethnically racially diverse countries on the planet. One third of people in Israel are of European descent, one third. The other two thirds are Middle Eastern. They are from countries across the region historically who were chased out of those countries, Iraqi Jews, Persian Jews, Assyrian Jews and many others, North African Jews. To see white college campus kids in America accusing black Jewish Israelis of white supremacy is, even by the standards of our time and even with our probably wearied ability to be shocked, absolutely shocking and shocking, not least just for its sheer ignorance.

Clay Travis (29:12)

When you look. Douglas Murray, the author of On Democracies and Death Cults, encourage you to go read the book, what you just said, the, you know, white American college kids coming after this. When I went to Israel, the other thing that stood out was Trump being called Hitler. When Israel, if it could vote in the American presidential election, would have Voted like Wyoming did or like West Virginia did. That is basically 70, 30 pro trumpets. As someone who doesn't live in America, and when you hear that argument, how outrageous and outlandish is that analogy for our current president when it comes to his relationship with Israel?

Douglas Murray (29:54)

Well, just one quick thing. I actually do live in America when I'm not living in various war zones. I hot footed it for my native Britain some years ago for very good reasons. And I'd like to think I'm one of the better American imports of research.

Clay Travis (30:10)

We'll accept you. Yes, thank you.

Douglas Murray (30:12)

Not for me to say, but, you know, because I love this country, I love America, I love the Founding Fathers, I love American history and I love American people. So it grieves me enormously to see some of the wild, wild hatred and wild claims that people have been encouraged into in recent years. Many people have been persuaded that, that basically, you know, all of history is just the 1930s and 40s, right? They only know one bad person in history and that's Hitler. And their aim is to be anti Hitler, which is like, wow, guys, that was a very brave and important thing to be in the 1930s and 40s.

Clay Travis (30:57)

By the way, when many of the people were not actually anti Hitler. When it would have been helpful, right?

Douglas Murray (31:02)

Exactly. It would have really helped if there'd have been more Andy Hitler people in those days. But history is a bit more complicated when you're going through it and we are going through it now. One of the things that we've seen in the last 18 months is how many people who regard themselves as being anti racists are in fact the racist. How many people who think they're anti Nazi are literally siding with a Nazi movement? Hamas? How many people who think they would have been on the right side in the 1930s and the 1940s are on the side of an anti Semitic and anti Western death cult today? The people who told us for 10 years to believe all women are the people who don't believe Israeli women who were raped on the 7th of October. This tells us nothing about the Jewish state or the Jewish people. It tells us everything about the people who have been lecturing us for years now and how wicked they can be.

Clay Travis (32:05)

Douglas Murray, last question for you. You hit on something that I think is hugely important. We have an historically illiterate country. Your point is? Yes. Basically the only historical analogy many people seem to be able to make is to Hitler and to World War II. How much of all of this is rooted in in America, but also Western civilization? In general, not having educated its people in terms of real history and having much of a depth of knowledge at all.

Douglas Murray (32:36)

Well, I'll tell you, it's obviously the ignorance of history is profound everywhere, not just in America. Across the west, young British and Canadian school children and college students are also being taught versions of the same rot. One of the things I finish this book on, though, is to say, why not regard this, as I do, as a civilizational moment and a civilizational test? We all weigh ourselves up against the greatest generation of World War II, and we should we ask ourselves, would we do what our forefathers were able to do when the time of trial came? You can take the route, if you're a young American, of being led into the grievance culture, the victimhood culture that you and I have spoken about for years and that we hate. But you can also choose another route. And it's the route that the young men and women of Israel who I had the honor to be with in Gaza, in Lebanon, in Israel in the last 18 months. It's the route they have chosen, which is the route of heroism. Protecting your people, protecting your faith, protecting your family, protecting your way of life, and knowing that your way of life will only continue if you're willing to fight for it. I'd like to see Americans learn from the Israeli youth on this, because if they do, we have a bright future, too.

Clay Travis (33:56)

Well said. The book on Democracies and Death Cults Douglas Murray, Good luck on the trail and I hope you sell a lot of books. I know this audience will be very receptive to your book and the arguments you're making. Thanks for everything you're doing.

Douglas Murray (34:09)

It's great to be with you. Thank you.

Clay Travis (34:11)

That is Douglas Murray look much less serious. I hope you guys enjoyed that. Super smart guy. Obviously, historical illiteracy is a big part of the challenge that we face in this country, but much less serious. I bet a lot of you are paying attention to the Masters down in Augusta, Georgia, where I know we have a huge audience right now. Thursday at the Masters Underway and Prize Picks, the best place out there to feature all the golfers that are competing. You can just pick more or less on what kind of scores they're going to post. Over 10 million members, billions of dollars and awarded winnings. Prize Picks has made daily fantasy sports accessible to all, including those of you who live in Florida, who live in Georgia, who live in California, who live in Texas and might otherwise be being left out. You can sign up 40 plus states, download the prizepix app today, use my name clay. $50 instantly when you play $5 very few times. Or I say, hey, all you got to do is go to prizepix.com code clay and you get 50 bucks. But that is the reality. Prizepix.com code Clay $50 instantly when you play, win or lose, you get 50 bucks. When you play $5. If you love the Masters, if you love Major League Baseball, that's underway, if you love NHL playoffs, NBA playoffs, whatever your sport is, you can have more fun with it with prizepix.com code clay. You ain't imagining it. The world has gone insane. Reclaim your sanity with Clay and Buck. Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back in Clay Travis BUCK Sexton show. We'll talk a little bit more about this when we come back. Top of the next hour. But Donald Trump now for nearly an hour has been taking questions at a cabinet meeting, as have many of the cabinet members. And Elon Musk, who is not technically a cabinet member, has been taking questions and addressing the assembled media in a fashion, frankly, that we never saw under Joe Biden at all. And here is Trump reacting to consumer goods costs coming down according to the most recent numbers out there. This is cut 26.

Donald Trump (36:23)

Consumer prices have actually dropped. Very little inflation. Everybody predicted a lot of inflation. Very little inflation. Energy costs are down. Interest rates are probably down. They scatter, but they're probably down. Prescription drug prices are even to down, doing very well. It's been amazing. We had a big day yesterday. Always be transition difficulty. But we had a in history. It was the biggest day in history, the markets. So we're very, very happy with the way the country's running. We're trying to get the world to treat us fairly. This is something that should have been done 25 years ago and it wasn't. Should have been done 40 years ago and it wasn't. But no president was willing to take it on. But you had to. It's not sustainable. It wasn't sustainable.

Clay Travis (37:07)

That is Trump in the cabinet meeting. We'll continue to monitor. By the way, markets down around 3% today. They have come back a bit during the course of this cabinet meeting. We'll give you the absolute latest, lots of news going on. Top of the next hour. Appreciate all y'all hanging with us here on plane by.