Hour 2 - Culture Wars

Summary

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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Hour 2 – Culture Wars
Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Clay Travis
Guest: Brianna Lyman, The Federalist
Theme: Navigating the Cultural and Political Divides in America

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into America’s ongoing "culture wars," with a focus on current events, political climate shifts, historical literacy, and debates over public memory and statues. Clay Travis, joined by Brianna Lyman of The Federalist, examines the nation’s mood on everything from the economy and border security to battles over how American history is remembered and taught.

The tone balances intelligence with wit, determined to pull apart the roots of the divisions in American society—notably the push to reassess or remove historical monuments, changing attitudes toward the founding generation, and the legacy of contemporary political decisions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking News and Setting the Stage (02:26–06:00)

• Current Headlines:
  Clay recaps breaking stories: unresolved shootings at Brown University, the aftermath of the Bondi shooting in Australia, and a deadly private plane crash in North Carolina that may have NASCAR links.
• Political Climate:
  Clay pivots to a discussion of how the economy, border, and crime will shape 2026 elections, applying his “EBC” (Economy, Border, Crime) formula.
  • “It’s as easy as EBC. Economy, border, crime.” – Clay Travis [03:10]
• Trump vs. Biden Era Changes:
  Highlights improvements in border security and crime figures (like historic lows in Nashville murders) attributed to Trump's policies.

2. Political Party Approval & Economic Messaging (06:00–09:00)

• Democrats' Unpopularity:
  Clay cites CNN polling: Democrats' congressional approval is at an all-time low, especially among independents.
  • “Democrats in the minds of the American public are lower than the Dead Sea.” – Clay Travis [04:10]
• General Discontent:
  Both parties struggle with public trust. Biden-era inflation is blamed for widespread frustration.
• Trump’s Military Bonus Proposal:
  Discussed Trump’s idea for a $1,776 military bonus derived from tariff revenues for the nation’s 250th anniversary.
  • “That seems like something that nobody could disagree with. Well, unless you happen to listen to The View.” – Clay Travis [07:42]

3. Culture, Vibe, and National Events (09:00–12:30)

• National “Vibe Check”:
  The hosts reflect on how Trump taps into Americans’ need for patriotic celebration, like the upcoming World Cup and America’s 250th anniversary.
  • “Trump gets the importance of big events and helping to drive the overall vibe of a nation.” – Clay Travis [09:59]
• Caller – Presidential Communication Challenge:
  Caller Wayne from California contrasts today's economy with the late 1970s, admonishing “whining” about current conditions and warning how much worse things could get.
  • “This economy right now is not near as bad as what it was back with Jimmy Carter.” – Wayne [12:46]
• Caller – Managing Expectations:
  Robert from Alabama notes unrealistic public expectations about instant change after presidential transitions.

4. Decision-Making, Historical Perspective, and Gold/Silver Pitch (15:00–19:15)

• Presidential Leadership:
  Clay argues that the presidency is about (1) good decision making and (2) communicating policy benefits to average Americans.
  • “Decision making is the most important. … Second part is communicating why the decisions that you have made are helping to make the average American’s life better.” – Clay Travis [15:56]
• Slow Change:
  Improvements take time; it often takes 4 years for economic policies to show results, cautioning against impatience.

5. Cultural Policy – Transgender Surgery Ban for Minors (21:31–22:30)

• New HHS Rule:
  Citing Robert F. Kennedy Jr., new federal rules ban gender transition surgeries for minors under 18—a “common sense decision” likened in restrictiveness to tattoo laws for minors.
  • “How in the world are we allowing this so-called gender transition surgery to be occurring?” – Clay Travis [21:48]

6. Interview: Brianna Lyman on Memory, Monuments, and Historical Literacy (24:55–38:29)

The Robert E. Lee Statue in Virginia (24:55–29:00)

• Lyman on Lee’s Legacy:
  • “You cannot tell the story of Virginia without talking about Robert E. Lee. … He's more so idolized for what he did after the war. This man became the face of reconciliation.” – Brianna Lyman [24:55]
  • Argues that Lee’s role in postwar reconciliation is overlooked by critics.
• Lincoln’s Reconciliation Approach:
  Lyman recounts Lincoln's extended hand to the South, citing generous surrender terms and appeal to unity, not vengeance.

Wider Attacks on Founders, Statues, and MLK (29:01–32:53)

• Expanding Standards of Judgment:
  Lyman and Clay discuss the “slippery slope” of removing or condemning historic figures—Washington, Jefferson, even MLK—over modern moral standards.
  • “If we are making the standard that if you’re not morally perfect, your statue has to come down, then so does Jefferson’s, so does Washington’s, because they own slaves.” – Brianna Lyman [28:47]
  • “We’re all going to be judged as lacking by history because no one lives up to whatever the standard is in the future in a perfect way.” – Clay Travis [30:00]
• State vs. Nation Allegiance in Lee’s Time:
  Discusses how 19th-century Americans saw allegiance to their states as paramount—a foreign concept to most modern Americans.

Generational Historical Illiteracy & Its Consequences (32:53–36:48)

• Deliberate Erasure:
  Lyman asserts public schools encourage students to be ashamed of American heritage, part of a broader effort to “delegitimize” the founding.
  • “The goal is to delegitimize the work of the founders. … We've been indoctrinated … to a degree where we're ashamed of our heritage and our ancestors.” – Brianna Lyman [33:49]
• Defining by Ceilings or Floors:
  Clay raises the metaphor: do we remember great Americans by their highest achievements (ceilings) or lowest failures (floors)? He suggests the Left focuses on the latter.
  • “The Democrat Party in general focuses on the floor of American history... [Republicans] tend to focus on the ceiling.” – Clay Travis [34:57]
• Cultural Replacement:
  Lyman contends the push to focus on flaws paves the way for erasing founding documents, Christianity, and traditional American institutions for “something else.”

250th Anniversary (America 250) – Reasons for Optimism? (36:48–38:29)

• Will America 250 Bring Unity?
  Clay and Lyman debate whether the 250th anniversary can restore patriotism, with Lyman hoping Trump’s leadership will reorient the celebration toward honoring the founders.
  • “Without their sacrifices, you and I wouldn’t be speaking today.” – Brianna Lyman [37:51]
• Where to Find Lyman:
  Twitter: @BriannaLyman2
  Instagram: brianna.lyman

7. Wrap-Up and Reflection (42:37–44:11)

• Clay Reasserts the Stakes:
  The control of historical narrative shapes perceptions of America's legitimacy; defending 1776 as the nation's true founding is presented as vital against rival narratives like the “1619 Project.”
  • “If you can redefine … the founding of this country in 1619 … as opposed to 1776, then you can argue that the entire country is a pit of despair and awfulness and rotten at its core.” – Clay Travis [42:37]
• Action Plan:
  Hints at bringing in more guests for historical conversations in 2026 to combat “historical illiteracy” and promote patriotic education.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Democrats in the minds of the American public are lower than the Dead Sea.” – Clay Travis [04:10]
• “That seems like something that nobody could disagree with. Well, unless you happen to listen to The View.” – Clay Travis (re: Trump’s military bonus) [07:42]
• “You cannot tell the story of Virginia without talking about Robert E. Lee. … He's more so idolized for what he did after the war. This man became the face of reconciliation.” – Brianna Lyman [24:55]
• “If we are making the standard that if you’re not morally perfect, your statue has to come down, then so does Jefferson’s, so does Washington’s, because they own slaves.” – Brianna Lyman [28:47]
• "The goal is to delegitimize the work of the founders. … We've been indoctrinated … to a degree where we're ashamed of our heritage and our ancestors.” – Brianna Lyman [33:49]
• “The Democrat Party in general focuses on the floor of American history... [Republicans] tend to focus on the ceiling.” – Clay Travis [34:57]
• “If you can redefine … the founding of this country in 1619 … as opposed to 1776, then you can argue that the entire country is a pit of despair and awfulness and rotten at its core.” – Clay Travis [42:37]
• “Without their sacrifices, you and I wouldn’t be speaking today.” – Brianna Lyman [37:51]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:26 News Headlines & EBC (Economy, Border, Crime) Framework
• 04:10 Democrats' Approval Ratings Plummet
• 07:42 Trump’s Military Bonus Proposal Debated
• 09:59 National “Vibe Check” and World Cup Discussion
• 12:46 Caller Wayne on Economic Memory
• 14:23 Caller Robert on Managing Presidential Expectations
• 15:56 Clay on Presidential Decision-Making vs. Communication
• 21:31 New Federal Ban on Minors’ Gender Transition Surgeries
• 24:55 Brianna Lyman Interview Begins (Legacy of Robert E. Lee)
• 28:47 "If you're not morally perfect, your statue has to come down..." – Lyman
• 33:49 Delegitimizing the Founders – Lyman's Take
• 34:57 Ceilings vs. Floors Metaphor – Clay Travis
• 36:48 Is America 250 a Chance for Unity?
• 42:37 Clay’s Warning about America’s “Re-founding”

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Conclusion

This episode of "The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show" is a passionate exploration of the interplay between current events, political approval, and deep questions about American memory. With strong historical arguments, memorable analogies, and frank discussion about cultural shifts—from battles over statues to how and why we should remember the past—the hosts and guest urge listeners to engage with history honestly while pushing back against efforts to erase or delegitimize the American founding.

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Transcript

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[Clay Travis]

Welcome in hour number two, Thursday Edition Clay Travis Buck Sexton Show Appreciate all of you hanging out with us, continuing to track. Unfortunately, the reality that we seem to have no idea who the butler butler who the shooter was at Brown University in Rhode island just absolutely Nothing that seems to connect anyone to that shooting at all. They have more and more videos coming out, but none of them are particularly helpful. So we are continuing to monitor that. Also, unfortunately, the Bondi shooting, the fallout associated with that in Australia. There is a plane that has crashed, a small plane with about six passengers in North Carolina. May be connected to a NASCAR universe there, according to the headline that is up on cnn. We will update you with the latest there when we know more. Again, deadly plane crash in Statesville, North Carolina has occurred. Reports that there were six people on that private jet. But that is the lead story right now, along with the continued pursuit of who this person at Brown University might have been, with better photos now and better video analysis potentially coming out of people of interest in that story. So we will continue to track it. A lot of great feedback. You can go talk to us at the talk back there. But I wanted to hit you with a couple of different stories that are out there right now. You were just talking kind of of how 2026 is going to go. And a big part of how 2026 is going to go is it's the economy. Right? We told you on this program it's as easy as ebc. Economy, border crime. It's very hard to argue now that things with the border and things with crime aren't better across the United States right now than they were when Joe Biden was in office. Vast majorities of Americans, they see what's happened at the border, it's shut down. The vast majority agrees with what President Trump has done there. And then on crime, basically, even Democrats are having to acknowledge, yeah, Trump's had some impact in Washington, D.C. he's having impact in Memphis. In my hometown of Nashville, the number of murders have collapsed. We're headed for, I believe, a 60 year low. Uh, things are moving better there. It's all going to come down to the economy. And you're thinking, okay, well, did Democrats have a better message on the economy? This was on CNN a little bit earlier in the day. Harry Enton saying that based on current numbers, Democrats are the least popular they have ever been. Again, cnn, listen, Democrats in the minds of the American public are lower than the Dead Sea. What are we talking about here? Well, let's take a look. The net approval rating for Democrats in Congress. You said a Kate Baldwin, the lowest ever. Look at this. Overall, they are 55 points underwater. Their approval rating is south of 20%. It's even worse when you look at independents. Look at this, negative 61 points. That means that their approval rating is 61 points lower than their disapproval rating. Quinnipiac has been polling this question for the better part of the 21st century. They have never found Democrats, at least those in Congress, in worse shape than they are right now. Okay? So it would be one thing if you said, well, Republicans are struggling on the economy, and as a result, there's going to be a massive beatdown that happens in 2026. People don't really like Democrats either. So there is just a general disdain, discord, antipathy that is out there among voters, frankly, for both political parties. And again, I think this is a legacy of Biden inflation, which has made everybody angry because all goods just cost more than they feel like they, than we feel like they should. And also the Trump derangement syndrome means even when Trump does something that should be 100% approval. OK, Trump said, I'm going to give every member of the military $776 in honor of our nation's 250th anniversary and the fact that tariffs, revenue is coming in better. We're going to give everyone that is in our military a Christmas bonus. 1.45 million people. Those out there that are putting their lives on the line to protect us. I don't, I'm being honest with y'. All. I don't understand how anyone in America could have an issue with that. But I think it's fair to say that a lot of our soldiers are underpaid. They haven't gotten raises. They're doing their best to raise their families on wages that are often challenging. And President Trump sees that and he says, hey, you know what? Let's just give an end of the year bonus to all the soldiers out there and let's do it in a way that celebrates the founding of our American republic. Let's give them $1776. That seems like something that nobody could disagree with. Well, unless you happen to listen to the View. Whoopi Goldberg, she ain't happy with it. Listen, the one thing I'll give him credit on is this bonuses to troops.

[Commercial Announcer]

He's giving him basically seventeen hundred dollars.

[Clay Travis]

If they get the.

[Commercial Announcer]

Well, I want to see money coming from, he says tariff revenue.

[Clay Travis]

That's what I'm most intrigued to see if that's actually the case.

[Commercial Announcer]

Listen, coming off of the government, I.

[Clay Travis]

Got to check that with Professor Kachi pt because I don't believe that.

[Commercial Announcer]

Well, in the delay that they all.

Had of not they got back pay, but I mean, people need help. But all Americans need help right now.

[Clay Travis]

And just a handout isn't the answer.

[Commercial Announcer]

Smart policies are the.

[Clay Travis]

Well, he's, what he's doing is he's thinking, if I make sure that the soldiers have what they need, they'll back.

[Brianna Lyman]

Me and what I want.

[Clay Travis]

Say, okay, what does that even mean they'll back me in what I want? I mean, the soldiers are responsible for executing the vision of the commander in chief. That is actually the job of the president of the United States to direct our military. And then the soldiers act at the behest of the commander in chief. You think that they were going to reject orders from the commander in chief. And then suddenly at the end of the year, you get seventeen hundred and seventy six dollars additional and you say, oh, you know what? In retrospect, now I'll do whatever the president wants. This is, this is crazy talk. Ok? This is absolutely bonkers. It's an example of Trump derangement syndrome. That's something that should be, I think, honestly, 100%, 100% approval. Hey, we've had better revenue than we expected with tariffs. We who deserves to get some of that better revenue from tariffs? How about our soldiers hardworking in honor of America 250. And I will say we had that caller talking about the vibe. Sometimes it's hard to get a vibe on a country of 350 million ish people. Right? What is the overall vibe check? It's constantly going to be up and down. Some states people are happier, some states people are not happier. I do think that this is significant. Trump gets the importance of big events and helping to drive the overall vibe of a nation, the overall net positivity. And he talked about this last night. And some of you said a couple weeks ago I was up for the World cup. And you say the, the draw and you say, I hate the World Cup. I, I don't care anything at all about soccer. Soccer stinks. I do think that there is going to be a lot of positivity coming out of hosting the World cup this coming summer. It's going to be a positive experience, I believe, for our nation, not dissimilar to how it was when we hosted in 1994 the Men's World Cup. And then I believe we hosted in 1999 the Women's World Cup. A lot of young women out there remember that event. I believe that it was when Brandi Chastain won and ripped off her, ripped off her shirt and slid in the sports bra. That iconic celebratory moment that everybody remembers, particularly young women who were fans of that American women's soccer team before they lost their mind and started listening to Megan Rapinoe of the world say, hey, you know what we need more of in women's sports? Dudes pretending to be chicks. That's what we need more of. Here is cut seven. Trump pointing this out. And I do think the UFC fight at the White House. I think the World Cup, 250. I think everything about the 250th anniversary of our nation's founding has the opportunity to uplift us in national consciousness. Cut 7.

[Caller]

Soon we will host the World cup and the Olympics, both of which I got. But most importantly, we will celebrate the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. There could be no more fitting tribute to this epic milestone than to complete the comeback of America that began just one year ago. When the world looks at us next.

[Commercial Announcer]

Year, let them see a nation that.

[Caller]

Is loyal to its citizens, faithful to its workers, confident to its identity, certain to its destiny, and the envy of the entire globe. We are respected again like we have never been respected before.

[Clay Travis]

Okay, so that is President Trump last night. All right, let's grab some more of your calls. A lot of people want to weigh in. Wayne, out in Yorba Linda, California. That's Richard Nixon territory, if I'm not mistaken. You think the economy's pretty good compared to what you've lived through in the past.

[Caller]

Yeah. This economy right now is not near as bad as what it was back with Jimmy Carter. I bought my second home in 1978, and I was paying 14 and a quarter percent interest on my second home. And we were not only dealing with that, but we were dealing with a gasoline embargo. And we couldn't even buy gasoline except for every odd or even day. I spent many days at my work because I couldn't even get home to my wife and kids. And these people that are whining right now, they don't know how bad it can actually get. And, you know, it just upsets me to hell I'm not. This economy is not near as bad as what you think, because it could be a lot worse.

[Clay Travis]

Thank you for the call. Robert. In Alabama. You're getting at the issue that I think is a challenge. Here's the biggest challenge that I would say the Trump White House has, and Robert's going to address this. You have to simultaneously tell people things are getting better without appearing to be out of touch. So when you say. And every time I say it, it's true, the economy is getting better. Somebody hops in my mentions, and they say you're out of touch. You have no idea what's going on. In my world, the economy sucks. There's always somebody who says that on social media. That reality echoes throughout the country. So the challenge is, how do you tell people things are getting better, which they are, while simultaneously acknowledging that you can seem out of touch if people don't feel yet that things are getting better. And that's what you're calling about, Robert, in Alabama.

[Caller]

Yes. And they're under this sad misconception that, you know, soon, as soon as the president gets into office, the next day, everything that he promised is going to take place that day.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah.

[Caller]

You know, and that's the sad reality that, that most people think of because they don't understand the mechanism here, you know, and how this works. Like you were alluding to earlier about, you know, the, the mess that Reagan took over from Jimmy Carter.

[Clay Travis]

That's right.

[Caller]

We had, you know, a much worse economy then, and it took him nearly four years of the eight years that he was in office to, to actually turn it around, because it just doesn't happen overnight. I mean, and how. And, and I think that, you know, people like me, and I'm nobody, but, you know, I get it. I understand how this works, but I don't think there's. There's a plethora of individuals out there that just don't understand this. And I think that that language needs to be spoken to these people and get to those people. Because I'll tell you, the, the one thing that we got to worry about now is that the midterms right now, as far as I'm concerned, because if, you know, all this that Trump has done in just this 11 months, and if we lose in the midterms and then lose, and then it gets back to the Democrats, we're, you know, we're back to beyond square one again.

[Clay Travis]

No, I agree. And thank you for the call, Robert. That is the challenge. Right? Any one individual president has got so much to do. We need to string together about 20 years of good presidents to help to make up for the disastrous choices that have been made so far. And that's why I said any. Look, Trump 2.0. To me, he gets an A plus for the first year of Trump 2.0. I can't imagine it being much better. But what Robert is hitting on and what many of you understand is really the presidency comes down to two things. Decision making. Are you making the best decisions? That is point one. Are you making the right decisions? Are you steering the ship in the direction in which the country needs to go? Decision making is the most important. That's basically what we elect you to do. Second part is communicating why the decisions that you have made are helping to make the average American's life better. I think that Trump in his first year has made the right decisions. He has made, by and large, nobody's perfect, but by and large he has made the right decisions. Now he's got to communicate how those decisions are making the life of the average American better. And are the average Americans going to accept that argument by the time we get to November? Because again, remember, a lot of times it takes four years for the economy's change and for the trajectory to be felt. Two years can be very tough, particularly when you look at what Trump was taking over. Look. Gold and silver top the list of investments in 2025, each of them up over 60% in value. If you made a purchase earlier this year putting gold into your IRA or your 401k, you're extraordinarily happy with your results. Even if you bought physical gold and are holding it at home, you're smiling. Experts believe the values of gold and silver are only going to continue to rise in the new year. You know the reasons for the increases in these values? Inflation. One reason. Central banks around the globe purchasing large quantities of precious metals is another. Birch Gold Group wants you to own silver as much as you might own gold. They know the long term value of each precious metal only going to grow in the future. That's why for every $5,000 you purchase in gold between now and Monday the 22nd, Birch Gold will also send you an ounce of silver. Diversify. Let Birch Gold Group help you convert an existing IRA or 401k into a tax sheltered IRA and physical gold. And for every $5,000 you buy, you'll get an ounce of silver. Just text my name Clay to 989-898 to claim your eligibility for this offer. Again. Clay to 989898 Today Birch Gold Group learn about them. Clay 989898 and before Christmas you will get a special benefit. That's Clay to 9898 98. Stories of Freedom. Stories of America. Inspirational stories that unite us all. Each day spend time with Clay and Buck. Find them on the free I Heart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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10 athletes will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points. You are the fittest of the fit. Only one of you will leave here with an IFIT contract worth $250,000.

[Clay Travis]

This is where mindset comes in.

[Commercial Announcer]

Someone will be eliminated.

[Clay Travis]

Pressure is coming down. Trainer Games on Prime Video January 8th. Watch the trailer on trainergames.com Season 2.

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[Clay Travis]

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[Clay Travis]

Welcome back in Clay Travis Buck Sexton Show. Good news out there. We're going to talk with Brianna Lyman. I'll ask her about this. She's a writer at the Federalist. We're going to talk to her at the bottom of the hour, but HHS under Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Announced earlier today that they are putting into place rules that will stop any medical treatments for trans surgeries for children under the age of 18 years old. Now again this is another basically common sense decision. You can't get a tattoo in most cities and states across America. There are regulations that would stop me. I've got a 15 year old. I wouldn't be able to take my 15 year old into a tattoo parlor and have him get tatted up. How in the world, if we're saying, hey, young people shouldn't be able to do that to their bodies, how in the world are we allowing this so called gender transition surgery to be occurring? I think this is another win for common sense. We'll talk about that and more. Also have a loaded lines. We're going to keep taking your calls. Appreciate all of you out there listening with us. But I want to tell you, if you want to ensure that you have energy better than the average Democrat man in America, better than Joe Biden in 2026, maybe you're dragging a little bit. We had an outkick Christmas party last night. Maybe you were out at your Christmas parties. Maybe you're staying up a little bit later. Maybe you got friends, family events, as we all do, that are keeping you busy during the holiday season. Little bit of extra testosterone out there could make a difference for you. In the space of three months time, you can increase your overall Testosterone level by 20%. All natural. Get the best deal out there at Chalk C H O Q.com it's all natural. Use my name Clay. You get the best subscription discount for life. You can cancel anytime. Why not make this a new year goal, Put some energy back in your life. Stop dragging [e-mail] choq.com My name Clay. Best deal for life. Welcome back in Clay. Travis Buck Sexton show. We appreciate all of you hanging out with us. First guest of the day joining us now. I've been impressed at how outspoken she has been on social media of late. You certainly are seeing her a ton all over the airwaves, whether it's Fox News, whether it's Fox Business, CNN as well. Brianna Lyman joins us now and she also writes at the Federalist. My friend Shawn Davis got a great company that he helps to drive there. Brianna, I've been seeing you weigh in a lot on this. I would say maybe echo or continuing lasting legacy associated with this era of taking down historic statues and trying to condemn people based on modern day standards for decisions that they made in the past. And in particular, you've been tweeting a lot about the state of Virginia pulling a Robert E. Lee statue out of the Capitol where every state has the ability to have two different statues. What strikes you about that decision. And what does it say about the culture of America that we are still dealing with these continued reverberations from the crazy era of 2020?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Brianna Lyman]

The point of these statutes are you're supposed to honor people and who you cannot tell the story of your state without mentioning. Robert E. Lee is one of those people that you cannot tell a story about Virginia without talking about Robert E. Lee. And he's not idolized because he was fighting for the Confederacy, which wanted to preserve slavery. He's more so idolized for what he did after the war. This man became the face of reconciliation. And it's very easy for people in 2025 to sit back and say, he should have been executed. He should have been exiled. This man was a traitor. But unless you're in 1860 and you understand that it is not country first, it is state first, that Robert E. Lee literally said he doesn't believe the Confederacy had a reason to secede, that he thought it was a bad idea. But he said, if my home state of Virginia secedes, I will not take up arms against my home state. That's the valor that we're talking about. And then after the war ended, he convinced Confederates who wanted to go the bushes and fight guerrilla warfare, they were ready to die to the very end. And he said, no, go home. Rebuild your families. It's okay to ask for a pardon. He did it himself. It's okay to want to be friends with your northern neighbors again. We need peace and reconciliation. And it wasn't very easy to do. That nation was holding on by a thread, and Robert E. Lee helped convince a very disgruntled south that it's time to make peace, and that deserves remembrance.

[Clay Travis]

All of that is 100% true. And this is my Civil War history. Nerd. Just geeking out here. Everything that you said is 100% true. I've made these arguments out there. Is it one of the biggest threats that we face in this country? A profound lack of historical literacy such that what you just laid out. And I would add, and. And you and I were sending messages about this, actually, there was a huge radical Republican group that wanted to execute as many different former Southerners as that that fought against the north, as many as they could, including Jefferson Davis, everybody else. And they actually ended up not winning that battle. And as a result, the reconciliation of the nation, which went far better because leaders on the north and the south side said, let's lay down arms and let's actually come back together as a nation. Very few People know that. Why do you think that is?

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, I'm so happy you brought that up. So Thaddeus Stevens was a radical Republican who kind of led that charge to execute and exile these Confederates. But if you go back even to 1860, Lincoln's first inaugural address, he spoke of mystic hordes of memory. What he was trying to do is he was trying to remind both those in the south and in the north that at the end of the day, they were people whose ancestors fought together in the Revolution. They were connected by blood and memory, and they were all still Americans. At the end of the day and throughout the entire war. Lincoln. Lincoln's entire goal was keep the Union together. He did not want to exile or kill all of the Confederates because he understood they are part of the Union. They just need to kind of be coaxed back into it. Right. It's the same reason why Grant worked to get such generous surrender terms for Lee, because they understood that if you want a Union to actually be united, you can't have half of them, and we're talking a massive half, be executed or exiled. It didn't work that way. And again, it's very easy for us in 2025 to say, oh, well, they have been executed. They should have been exiled. But you try holding a country together. And the reason that this story right now is so important, it's not just Robert E. Lee. You and I said this. They tore down statues of Jefferson. And if we are making the standard that if you're not morally perfect, your statue has to come down, then so does Jefferson's, so does Washington's, because they own slaves. And that's the entire point of this entire WOKE movement. We don't get to have heroes like Washington or Jefferson because they were stained by slavery. That's it. It doesn't matter what else they did. And that's why we have to make sure that we're being honest about historical realities and about living in those times and what those people did. Besides, you know, the moral stains of.

[Clay Travis]

Slavery, it's also important to apply it. I think you mentioned Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, certainly the monuments. Those guys have been attacked for a variety of reasons. Martin Luther King Jr. Used to do an advice column, believe it or not. You may have read this and said that anybody who was gay was victim of a mental illness and that they should be basically committed, essentially. And that was in the 1950s. Well, now that would be considered reprehensible by many parts of the nation. Do we tear down his statue as well? All of us, even the ones like you and me who think we're pretty good at things and everybody out there listening, we're all going to be judged as lacking by history because no one lives up to whatever the standard is in the future in a perfect way. You actually. And I think Robert E. Lee is such an interesting example of this because as you mentioned in Arlington, he was offered and spent all night pacing, trying to decide do I want to take over command of the entire Union forces or do I want to stay loyal to my state. A lot of people don't understand this in today's day and age, but your state used to be the equivalent of a country for many people, because in the 1860s, a lot of people never traveled outside of their state borders because it was so difficult comparatively to be able to travel. And so we think of state residents now as being something that is easy to change. And maybe your national character matters more than the state from which you live. But back in the day, your state was more important to a large extent than your country was because most people never left their states.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah. And it's, you know, part of that, you know, ordo amorous. Right. You rank things in priority. And to your point, people, one, didn't travel more than 15 miles outside of their community in most cases. And two, you have to remember that up until 1865, states were operating pretty independent of the federal government. Right. It wasn't until after the Civil War that we saw the federal government's role kind of expand. And it's been expanding. You know, it's expanding today as we speak. So states really did function as that country ideology right there. And Robert E. Lee is someone who loved the Union, but he loved his state more. And it's hard for people today. You know, the same people who would go publicly bash RFK Jr. Their cousin, their brother, whoever it is, to understand that back then people had hierarchies of priorities, and it was God, family, state, country, and it came in that order. And that's what Lee did. So you have to remember Lee in the times he was in versus the time we are in now. And you brought up a great point with Martin Luther King Jr. Look, this is a man who fought for good things. He also apparently was beating his wife. Right. And at some point there's going to be someone, a big group of people who say wife beating is bad, which it is. And they're going to say, well, we got to tear down mlk. Of course, that would be ridiculous. But that's what is going to happen with this slippery slope. And I'm pretty aggrieved that the same people who are sitting today convincing us that babies should be murdered in the womb, that we should be transiting on kids, are suddenly the arbiters of what is good and what's bad. And we're going to listen to them.

[Clay Travis]

Martin Luther King, also, look, was assassinated in 1968 on that balcony of the Lorraine Hotel in Memphis. As many people have seen in the hotel room when he was assassinated, was a mistress. Martin Luther King, as Robert F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy, and a lot of people of that era in particular, was not an upstanding family man in the way that many would want men to be today and in the past. And so, again, if you go and look at the past of many of our historic figures who are heroes and change the course of the nation, they all had some form of sordid past or aspect of their personality that would be found lacking. And I just think it's interesting where we draw the line and where we don't. How old are you, Brianna?

[Brianna Lyman]

I'm 27.

[Clay Travis]

All right, so you're 27. I have. And Buck, if he were here. We're both huge history people. I was a history major. I read everything I can about history. When you are around people your own age, how much historical illiteracy do you see? And second part of that, how much of that feels almost intentional? Because if you can tear down the heroes of American history, what you really allow is for everything to be wiped clean. Because when you're saying, hey, if we can point to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and say they own slaves, therefore their moral legitimacy is questioned, then it starts to allow you to question the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and argue that America was founded on a huge hill of lies. And so we can just wipe clean of everything that the country has been founded on. That feels historically like the goal.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, the goal is to delegitimize the work of the founders. In my generation in particular, you know, we've been indoctrinated in public education and even higher education to a degree where we're ashamed of our heritage and our ancestors. And it's not always been like that. You know, go back to, you know, the 70s, when Robert E. Lee was given his citizenship back in full. That passed, I think it was like 4, 10 to 3. It was some massive margin because everybody, Republican and Democrat, understood that Robert E. Lee was significant for a few reasons. And it wasn't so polarizing. You go to, what was it, 1993? The movie Gettysburg came out. They didn't portray Lee as an unrepentant racist. At the end scene, he's being cheered on by his soldiers as he goes to surrender. Right. And so there was a consensus, really, up until the past 20 years, that there are some figures who have a definitely complex past where some things were bad, and we don't condone that, but nonetheless, it doesn't take away from the reason that we look up to them or at least recognize their impact on America.

[Clay Travis]

I. I want to write another book, and my last book just came out, but I think what you're getting at I've been kind of grappling with in my own head. It's, do we define people by their ceilings or their floors? You know, do. And. And a lot of times, and I just came from a funeral of my uncle this week, and he didn't have much of a floor. He had a great ceiling. But if you go and watch a eulogy, it almost, almost always is, this is what he or she achieved. Let's talk about the positives. We don't marinate in the awfulness of the failures that we have in our life. At the end of the life, we like to define people based on their ceilings. It seems to me that the Democrat Party in general focuses on the floor of American history. The things that they want to say are the worst parts of our historic figures. And it seems in general like Republicans tend to focus on the ceiling. Is that metaphor out of line, or do you think there's some truth to it?

[Brianna Lyman]

No, I think it's accurate. And let's think, why does the left focus on the worst of the worst? Because the things that they care about, right, Socialism, communism, that is fundamentally incompatible with small R Republicanism. And if you actually want to implement communism and socialism on a large scale, you have to fundamentally reshape America. You have to get rid of the Declaration, you have to get rid of the Bill of Rights. You have to get rid of the institutions and what underpins those institutions, which is Christianity, to start fresh. So they have to focus on trying to sour the sentiment of the American people by bashing our heroes. Jefferson, Washington. Those are heroes. They should be revered, and they are going to do this. I'm actually really upset that we're, you know, coming into 250 and I'm not feeling as patriotic as I should be because there are so many people that are trying to tear down the legacy of our founders because they want to delegitimize, that they can replace.

[Clay Travis]

Are you so you're talking about 250. And I think it is incredibly important because I wasn't around in America 200. But for those of you out there that remember 1976, it seems like there was a profound national spirit of optimism that came out of that 200th birthday celebration. Are you optimistic that next year we can have something similar on America 250? Or do you think the Nicole Hannah Joneses of the world and the 1619 Project have been so successful in tearing down American history that it's impossible to bring everybody together?

[Brianna Lyman]

I think the Overton window is shifting, and I'm glad that President Trump is in office. I would like to see some changes to the, you know, board running the 250 celebrations because this is a time to honor the founders. And I say this as someone who's, you know, I'm related to Declaration of Independence Day signers. My two sixth great grand uncles were militia men in the battles of Lexington and Concord. My family fought this. They lived this. And honoring their legacy and everyone else's legacy is so important to me because without their sacrifices, you and I wouldn't be speaking today.

[Clay Travis]

Brianna, how can people find you if they want to see your content and. Or maybe they got kids and grandkids out there that are in your age bracket and maybe they're more likely to respond in a positive way to somebody their own age than people their age.

[Brianna Lyman]

I'm trying to be a patriot Maxing. So you can find me on Twitter@Brianna Lyman2 or Instagram. Brianna Lyman.

[Clay Travis]

Awesome. Hey, we appreciate the time. Have a good Christmas and thanks for fighting the good fight. I mean, I saw you fighting history battles on social media, which I almost never see anybody else doing. And I wanted to make sure you got a chance to. To talk with you. Thank you.

[Brianna Lyman]

Merry Christmas. Thanks so much.

[Clay Travis]

That's Brianna Lyman. That's fantastic. I mean, history nerding out. I mean, again, when I see somebody defending. She's 27. The historic legacy of Robert E. Lee, I'm like, wow, that maybe there are some people out there in their twenties that actually do have knowledge about American history makes me a little bit more optimistic. I've got a winner for you tonight. Thursday Night Football. Matthew Stafford, Sam Darnold, the Rams going up against the Seahawks. Each of these guys to throw one and a half, more than one and a half touchdown passes. If you go to prizepix.com you go to the Prize Picks app, Use my name. Clay C L A Y Clay, you can get hooked up 3.5x is what that pays off. You're just watching Thursday Night Football tonight as many of us, myself included, will be great matchup in the NFC West. The Rams going up against the Seahawks. If each of these quarterbacks throws, they got to throw it one and a half touchdowns or more then you will get 3.5x. You can play $5 right now and you will get $50. You play $5, you get $50 deposited in your account. That is prizepix.com code clay price picks app. You can play in California, Texas, Georgia if you're feeling left out. 13 million people playing 40 states prize picks code C L A Y. You ain't imagining it. The world has gone insane. Reclaim your sanity with Clay and bus. Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or we wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Clay Travis]

Welcome back in Clay Travis BUCK SEXTON show. We got a lot of people who want to weigh in. I'll take some of your calls. A lot of positivity coming in from Brianna Lyman. I think Buck and I are going to try to do in 2026, as a part of America, 250 more guests where we can have sort of a history conversation with people out there so that you can share with your kids and your grandkids, hopefully, a little bit more historic knowledge. Because as a college history major and a guy who thought about going to get a PhD in history as one of my favorite things to do when they can control the way we talk about history, I don't think a lot of people have recognized how deleterious that impact is and how destructive the goal is to try to undermine the entire history of this country. Because again, if you can redefine, as Nikole Hannah Jones did and the New York Times did, the founding of this country in 1619, when the first slaves got here, as opposed to in 1776 when we declared independence from England, then you can argue that the entire country is a pit of despair and awfulness and rotten at its core. And so therefore, all of American history deserves to be torn down, burned down and replaced with something else. That is their goal. And 250 in America gives us a great chance to tell them no.

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