Hour 2 - Curing the Culture with MAHA

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show Episode: Hour 2 - Curing the Culture with MAHA
Release Date: July 11, 2025

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Introduction

In the second hour of "The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show," the hosts delve into significant topics surrounding healthcare reform and political controversies. This episode features an insightful interview with Dr. Marty Makary, the Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), followed by a robust discussion on the ongoing fallout from the Epstein case and its implications within the FBI and Department of Justice (DOJ).

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Interview with Dr. Marty Makary

Overview: Dr. Marty Makary discusses his role in the FDA under the Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) initiative, focusing on transforming the U.S. healthcare system, expediting drug approvals, and integrating advanced technologies like artificial intelligence (AI) to accelerate medical breakthroughs.

Key Topics:

1. MAHA's Agenda and Healthcare Transformation

   Dr. Makary outlines the comprehensive approach MAHA is taking to overhaul the U.S. healthcare system:

   • Focus on Root Causes: Emphasizing research on underlying health issues at the National Institutes of Health (NIH).
   • Food Regulation: Shifting the FDA's attention to ensuring healthy food options, including banning petroleum-based food dyes and harmful chemicals.
   • Drug and Device Innovation: Prioritizing the development of cures for critical diseases such as various cancers, type 1 diabetes, Alzheimer's, and ALS.

   Notable Quote:
   Dr. Marty Makary [00:50]: “We are changing the entire approach to health care in the United States... focused on healthy food for kids.”

2. Reflections on the COVID-19 Pandemic and FDA's Response

   Dr. Makary criticizes the rigid and, at times, scientifically unfounded measures taken during the COVID-19 pandemic. He advocates for transparency and humility in public health communications:

   • Humility in Uncertainty: Encouraging officials to acknowledge when the science is not settled.
   • Critique of Absolutism: Highlighting the politicization of health measures and the damage caused by discouraging public inquiry.
   • Current Policy Adjustments: Implementing warnings on COVID vaccine side effects and ensuring vaccines for children undergo rigorous clinical trials.

   Notable Quote:
   Dr. Marty Makary [02:57]: “The absolutism that we saw during COVID... did a lot of damage.”

3. Expediting Drug Approvals and the Role of AI

   Addressing the lengthy drug approval process, Dr. Makary emphasizes the need to eliminate bureaucratic delays and leverage AI to streamline evaluations:

   • Reducing Red Tape: Aiming to cut unnecessary delays that prolong the time it takes for new drugs to reach the market.
   • AI Integration: Utilizing AI to handle vast amounts of data, organize applications, and summarize extensive documentation, thereby speeding up the review process.

   Notable Quote:
   Dr. Marty Makary [08:31]: “We have now a powerful AI tool that we just launched across the FDA... getting away from paper.”

4. COVID-19 Vaccine Updates for Parents

   Dr. Makary provides clarity on the current stance regarding COVID-19 boosters, especially for children:

   • Healthcare Worker Hesitancy: Noting that 85% of healthcare workers declined the latest booster, suggesting caution in blanket recommendations.
   • Individual Consultation: Advising parents to consult with doctors rather than relying solely on government directives.
   • Commitment to Science: Emphasizing the FDA's return to "gold standard science" and transparency in vaccine policies.

   Notable Quote:
   Dr. Marty Makary [10:18]: “We're not going to just blindly rubber stamp Covid boosters for young, healthy teenagers every year in perpetuity... without some clinical trials supporting that theory.”

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Discussion on the Epstein Case and Political Fallout

Overview: Post-interview, Clay and Buck shift focus to the escalating controversy surrounding the Epstein case, highlighting the tension between FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino and Attorney General Pam Bondi. This conflict poses significant challenges within the Trump administration, potentially impacting broader political agendas.

Key Topics:

1. Conflict Between Dan Bongino and Pam Bondi

   • Ultimatum Scenario: Reports indicate that Bongino has demanded Bondi's removal or his resignation, creating a high-stakes dilemma for President Trump.

   Notable Quote:
   Buck Sexton [06:43]: “It has been brewing for four months... Bongino appears ready to resign imminently if Bondi is not removed from office.”

2. Implications for the Trump Administration

   • Operational Hindrances: The discord between key figures in the FBI and DOJ threatens the administration's ability to effectively execute its policies.
   • Media and Public Perception: The internal strife is likely to be exploited by media outlets critical of Trump, potentially undermining his credibility and political objectives.

   Notable Quote:
   Clay Travis [25:55]: “This is a problem. If someone can't match the offer... sometimes the company's not doing well enough.”

3. Impact on the Epstein Investigation

   • Continuity and Transparency: Concerns are raised about the direction and integrity of the Epstein investigation amidst leadership conflicts.
   • Potential for Political Infighting: The situation may lead to broader political disputes, diverting attention from other significant issues.

   Notable Quote:
   Buck Sexton [32:56]: “This is basic blocking, tackling stuff. Understanding how the media works, how stories work and it just is such a mess.”

4. Managerial Insights and Decision-Making

   Clay and Buck share personal anecdotes and managerial perspectives on handling ultimatums and conflicts in professional settings, drawing parallels to the current political scenario.

   Notable Quote:
   Clay Travis [24:39]: “If you come for the boss or your immediate supervisor... that's for sure.”

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Conclusion

The episode provides a comprehensive look into the transformative efforts within the FDA under Dr. Marty Makary's leadership and examines the intricate political tensions stemming from the Epstein case. Clay and Buck navigate these complex topics with a blend of expertise and candid discussion, offering listeners valuable insights into healthcare reform and political dynamics.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Dr. Marty Makary [00:50]: “We are changing the entire approach to health care in the United States... focused on healthy food for kids.”

• Dr. Marty Makary [02:57]: “The absolutism that we saw during COVID... did a lot of damage.”

• Dr. Marty Makary [08:31]: “We have now a powerful AI tool that we just launched across the FDA... getting away from paper.”

• Dr. Marty Makary [10:18]: “We're not going to just blindly rubber stamp Covid boosters for young, healthy teenagers every year in perpetuity... without some clinical trials supporting that theory.”

• Buck Sexton [06:43]: “It has been brewing for four months... Bongino appears ready to resign imminently if Bondi is not removed from office.”

• Clay Travis [25:55]: “This is a problem. If someone can't match the offer... sometimes the company's not doing well enough.”

• Buck Sexton [32:56]: “This is basic blocking, tackling stuff. Understanding how the media works, how stories work and it just is such a mess.”

• Clay Travis [24:39]: “If you come for the boss or your immediate supervisor... that's for sure.”

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This summary encapsulates the critical discussions and insights from Hour 2 of "The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show," providing a comprehensive overview for listeners and those interested in the topics covered.

Transcript

[Clay Travis]

This is an iHeart podcast. Second hour of play in Buck kicks off now. We are joined by Dr. Marty Makary. He is the commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration. Dr. Makary, we appreciate you, sir. We remember you were a truth teller in the dark days of COVID madness. And now you are at the FDA and part of the MAHA approach to America. Make America healthy again. I saw your op ed in the Washington Post on getting drugs approved much more quickly and efficiently. That should be. That would be helpful. But let's just start with this. What is, what is the top of your agenda for maha? How are we going to make America healthy again now that that is your portfolio?

[Dr. Marty Makary]

Well, good to be with you guys. You know, we are changing the entire approach to health care in the United States under Secretary Kennedy. It's not just chemotherapy and insulin and Ozempic. We're now having research on root causes at the NIH. We're investing in the food side of the FDA. People forget that the F&FDA stands for food, not federal. And so we are focused on healthy food for kids. We've got tremendous traction throughout with the petroleum based food dye ban. We're going a step further, looking at all the chemicals in the food supply that are banned in other countries. We are focused on the drug side and device side. More cures for the American people. We'd love to see a cure for certain kinds of cancer, Stage four cancer, drugs that melt away cancer. We want to see a cure for type 1 diabetes, for Alzheimer's. We want to see meaningful treatments for als to see a universal flu shot so we don't have to play a guessing game each year. And one of my personal missions is to make sure that our veterans have a rapid decision on treatments for ptsd.

[Buck Sexton]

I really appreciate you coming on with us and the fact, Dr. Makary and I always want to go back and re emphasize this, that you were one of the truth tellers during COVID And I'm curious now as we are working through the MAHA movement and you have RFK Jr and you have you and Dr. Bhattacharya and I'm sure there's many, many more people that we don't even know the names of. Do you feel in many ways like all of the slings and arrows that you took and that many of your colleagues took have been vindicated in what you said and feel as if, hey, this is an opportunity to rectify a lot of the scientific wrongs on a big picture that came from somebody like Dr. Fauci. Lecturing everyone and saying, I am the science, don't challenge science. It has to feel in some way vindicating to be in the position that you are in now.

[Dr. Marty Makary]

Well, I think this is a time for us to demonstrate humility, the same humility we called for. When you don't know something as a doctor, you just need to say, we don't know, or we think this might be the case. The absolutism that we saw during COVID which was not based on science, but it was under the guise of listen to the experts and don't question us, it did a lot of damage. I mean, ignoring natural immunity, putting masks on toddlers for three years, insisting schools stay shut for a year and a half. Somehow this became partisan and it's really an ugly chapter. So we are trying to demonstrate transparency and humility throughout our health agencies and as role models. And I think, you know, we're making a lot of progress in that way. We, for example, put out a strong warning on myocarditis with the COVID vaccines. We're not approving Covid vaccines for healthy children without a clinical trial first. We're getting back to gold standard science and we're using common sense.

[Clay Travis]

Dr. Makary, what are some of the ways that we can see improvements in the drug? I mean, this is what you wrote about in the Washington Post editorial, right? Getting faster approval. Because one thing I know right now from the look, people think pharma and a lot, and a lot of people on the right in particular get, you know, they bristle a little bit. But pharma does make things like statins, which save a lot of lives. Pharma has incredible drugs that are helping with increase with rare types of cancer. We want, we want there to be breakthroughs, we want there to be cures. What are ways we can get to those cures faster? And is artificial intelligence something that you see helping just go through all the data and get to cures faster for the diseases that we want to see left in the past?

[Dr. Marty Makary]

Absolutely. And look, as a doctor at Johns Hopkins, for most of my career, I saw how drugs would cure people and people got terrible diagnoses and they would ask, is there anything promising out there? I think we have to ask a big question that really hasn't been asked before, and that is, why does it take over 10 years for a new drug to come to market? We have got to cut the red tape and these unnecessary delays over all of the bureaucratic processes and just get back to our job of making a prompt decision. On safety and efficacy. And, you know, if there's a drug where there's no hope or there's a small population affected, I believe in both the spirit and the letter of right to try that the president has put out there.

[Buck Sexton]

How much of what you deal with is fixable from a cultural perspective? And let me build on that a little bit, make the question a little bit, maybe more understandable. One of the things we worry about, I think if you're out there and you're a parent like I am and like Buck is, is so much guidance is constantly shifting. And if Trump is in office right now, we're very thankful that you're the FDA commissioner. But let's say that Kamala Harris, God forbid, had won or that she wins in 2029, and we get a brand new team of leadership at many of these agencies. If the culture underneath is rotten, then it becomes very difficult to fix. Can you fix the culture of the fda? How would you assess based on your time there so far? The culture actually is, I think it.

[Dr. Marty Makary]

Is culture that can be influenced. You know, I spend essentially every day on campus at the fda. It's a beautiful campus. I meet with the reviewers and the scientists and the inspectors and the folks that are working on childhood teen vaping reduction and all the people. You know, The FDA regulates 20% of the US economy. I'm on the ground. And I think when you're insulated as a leader, you can become a villain. But when you're on the ground and people see that, hey, I'm a cancer surgeon from Johns Hopkins and I've got scientific credentials, I've published over 300 scientific peer review studies. All of a sudden now you're a scientific colleague and you're not some caricature. And so I've been on the ground. The culture at the FDA is strong and getting stronger. The trains are running on time. And so the FDA is going to continue to be strong.

[Clay Travis]

What are some of the areas where you're hoping we could see major breakthroughs? I mean, broadly speaking. Right. Not asking about any particular thing that's in trials, but people are hearing about CRISPR technology. Obviously, I brought up AI, and I do know there are some people, Dr. Makary, in the biotechnology space who think that we could be on the precipice of a golden age of discoveries that will just help. You know, you said that they're changing the approach to healthcare overall. Right? That's part of the mission. Where are some of the likely discoveries in the near future? I mean, over the next four years. Do you think that we could see some pretty amazing things happen that either extend lives, save lives, improve lives thanks to technology and research that's going on right now?

[Dr. Marty Makary]

I do. I do. And let me tell you why, Clay, because we're going to try to do everything possible during my time at the FDA to cut the unnecessary delays, the waiting around, the idle time, the time that drug developers and inventors say where they're just doing guesswork because they can't talk to anyone at the FDA to find out what they want in the application. We just announced yesterday that all of our decision letters are going to be public information. So companies are not going to have to do guesswork to figure out how the FDA thinks or what they want in an application. We're increasing communication so a company can call us and ask a question instead of doing guesswork for a year. And we have now a powerful AI tool that we just launched across the fda, all of the centers where reviewers have incredible computational power now to organize applications and to summarize these giant, gnarly hundred thousand page applications. We're getting away from paper. We're doing a lot to cut the waste.

[Buck Sexton]

What should people know? Dr. Makary, and he's the head of the FDA, came on the show for years before he was the head of the fda. What is the absolute latest on the COVID shot? I know there's been, I think you came on right after the decision was made not to recommend it necessarily for, for young people, that is very young. Where are we now? I don't even know what booster people are on, but for people out there who have kids, I know there's a lot of concern about the number of shots that they're getting. A lot of examination of what is necessary, what is not. What would you say parents should know about that?

[Dr. Marty Makary]

Well, 85% of healthcare workers said no to the last Covid booster last fall. And that should tell you something. You know, maybe there's a high risk group where it makes sense. We're gonna tell folks to talk to their doctor. The government is not your doctor. But are we going to just blindly rubber stamp Covid boosters for young, healthy teenagers every year in perpetuity, such that a 10 year old girl today is going to get 60 more Covid shots once every year for the rest of her lifetime? No, we're not going to do that without some clinical trials supporting that theory. So we're getting back to gold standard science and I think people appreciate it. We've outlined our, our whole framework for Covid vaccines in the New England Journal of Medicine. And we're being very transparent about it. It's not, we're not doing deals with companies. We're being very public and transparent about everything. And I think if we can do this, everything well, if we can cut the red tape, be transparent, show humility, we can see cures for type 1 diabetes and neurodegenerative disorders and we can get to a universal flu shot, for example, which is something in the works in early development so we don't have to guess every year what the strain is going to be.

[Buck Sexton]

Dr. Makary, we appreciate the time and we appreciate all the work that you're doing. Have a fantastic weekend and we'll have you on again soon. Don't hesitate to reach out anytime we can help get the message out that that you think is important.

[Dr. Marty Makary]

Great. Good to be with you guys. Thanks so much.

[Buck Sexton]

For sure. He's fantastic. I'm excited that he's in the position that he is in. We come back, we'll take some of your calls. More reaction pouring in after the Axio story relating to the Epstein case. We'll dive into that and more. But I want to tell you, choosing we're just talking with the head of the fda. Choosing the healthcare coverage and which plan is right for you and your family. One of the most challenging decisions out there, especially if you're self employed on something as important as your healthcare insurance. You want to feel good about the decision you make. Why settle for a government plan like the Affordable Care act when there's benefits, better options out there? That's called Ease for Everyone. It offers affordable health care for as low as 262 bucks a month. You keep your doctor, never pay a deductible, access over 400 prescription drugs for free. Go online to their website, see which plan is right for you and your family. Ease for Everyone was developed by knowledge and forward thinking people out there in my hometown of Nashville. Visit Ease for everyone.com/clay to join today. That's ease for everyone.com/clay. Stories of freedom.

[Clay Travis]

Stories of America.

[Buck Sexton]

Inspirational stories that unite us all each day. Spend time with Clay and Buck. Find them on the free iHeartrad radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back in Clay Travis Buck Sex in show. Okay, our thanks to Dr. Marty McCary. Buck, I'm just gonna tell you this is going to be a fascinating next hour and a half or so. We've got Nicole Parker on at the top of our three. She's A former FBI agent. I think we are going to be deluge now. I'm just making the prediction with two different, completely opposite positions. One is going to be. All we want to hear is about the Epstein case and the continued fallout over Pam Bondi, Dan Bongino, Cash Patel. That's all we need to talk about. You guys are in the tank. They've gotten to you. You're bought off if you don't talk about it. That's going to be email and talk back one, talk back two is going to be. I don't know why you guys are talking about this at all. And I'm just telling you that is going to be the duality. You either think the Epstein story right now is the biggest story in the entire country and everybody should be talking about it all the time, or you think that the Epstein story is the most overplayed, uninteresting, least important story that exists and there's almost no one in the middle. So we are going to allow you guys to just fire away. And if you think that this story doesn't matter and we are morons for discussing it, fire away will read some of that. And if you think that we are owned and that we've been bought off and that if we're not talking about it all the time and if we're not beating the drum and if we're not banging the table, you can send those too. So I am predicting that there will be no one who's in the middle and they're like, I kind of think this is interesting, but I don't really care that much. There's not going to be anybody. You either hate every aspect of this story being covered in a significant fashion and think it's totally, totally overplayed and there are many other things more significant to talk about, or you think it's the only story that matters in America right now. And I don't know what the breakdown would be percentage wise in this audience, but that is where we are. So we were just talking with Dr. Marty McCary. Let me lay this out, Buck, and then we'll take some talk backs and everything else when we come back. Here is where I think we are and inevitably everybody's going to get furious about this.

[Clay Travis]

Are we talking McCarry? Are we talking more on Epstein stuff? I have a couple of thoughts on. Okay.

[Buck Sexton]

Oh, you want to talk to Carrie? You want to. Okay. I'm just like the Epstein thing all people are responding to right now. I don't know if it's a phenomenon do you want.

[Clay Travis]

Do you want more Epstein coverage on the show, or do you want any other news story?

[Buck Sexton]

I am going to go. I am going to put my thumb on the scale of all Epstein rest of the show. That's my. But I want to hear what you have to say about Dr. Marty McCary, because I do think maybe. Maybe I'm just.

[Clay Travis]

I'm sounding a little too, you know, too. Oh, everything is fine over here. Not about the Epstein thing, just to be clear, but just, you know, life is okay. Everything's going to be all right. I think it's. It's fascinating.

[Buck Sexton]

I.

[Clay Travis]

We don't talk about AI a lot on the show, and one of the reasons that I wanted to bring up Dr. McCary and wanted everyone to hear about this is that the stuff that's going on right now with AI Is incredible. And the more that I read about and use AI Just to see what it's capable of, the more. This is a little bit like the Internet circa 1996, in terms of the transformation of technology and with it, our lives. That is right on the precipice of occurring in a whole range of ways. Yes. Autonomous vehicles. Yes. You know, being able to research and find things, and the legal profession is going to be so affected and all these. But if you can use hyperintelligence effectively to do things like cure type 1 diabetes to. He said, neurodegenerative disorders, things like Alzheimer's. I mean, taking supercomputers now and having them be able to go through every iteration and permutation of all of the data ever in all of the trials on the. This stuff is going to be happening, and it is going to be incredible. I think the results that we're able to see. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I'm not saying it's going to cure everything. And we're not all going to live to be. You know, I don't want to live to be 500, but, you know, I do think that you're going to see some pretty amazing stuff soon.

[Buck Sexton]

Soon as a result. Okay. So we're going to be super optimistic here. I agree. I sign on to that. I actually think one of the most important things is going to be figuring out how your body individually responds to treatment, to health, and what you should eat. Like everybody. The idea that everybody has the exact same genotype, I think, is the phrase is just wrong. Everybody's different.

[Clay Travis]

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[Buck Sexton]

I.

[Clay Travis]

We're going to. Well, Nicole Parker is going to talk to us about the FBI situation too. Former FBI agent. But we were going to talk about the ICE raid in Camarillo, California and the federal judge, Ewusi Mensah Frim.

[Buck Sexton]

Good luck with that one.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah. Who, who has said that you basically can't arrest any illegals anymore because she says so. Like, there are other stories I do want to talk about in New York. Do you guys know in New York you paid $100 million for bridge lights that never got used and never even got taken out of the warehouse. This is the most classic New York thing ever. The state of New York under Cuomo, he wanted prettier bridges. He wanted lights for the bridges. $100 million clay of light bulbs. They spent $2 million housing the light bulbs, warehousing them and never used them. And this is just how New York uses the, you know, the tax money that that goes. People wonder why, why does New York have over double the budget of Florida with less people because of crap like this. So we could get into a lot.

[Buck Sexton]

Of people out there saying that sounds like my household. Well, maybe not, maybe not 100 million. But there's probably some people out there looking around saying it seems like we spent a lot of money on things that never actually end up being used. Just saying. Your, your dad, your dad. Like that happens quite a lot.

[Clay Travis]

I, I'm only a couple years into this marriage thing, but I do not question household expenses around here. I've just saying, you know, I will.

[Buck Sexton]

Say one of the, one of the healthiest things I've learned is I don't really know what we spend on the household. And I feel like in many ways that's, that's probably better for me.

[Clay Travis]

I also think it's a bit, when was the last time you cooked something?

[Buck Sexton]

He said I don't cook. I don't, I mean not using a microwave. Yeah, I've, I don't, I don't know that I have cooked anything. Not using a microwave in 20 years. Amazing. Good.

[Clay Travis]

Wow. Okay. I cook all the time. All right.

[Buck Sexton]

I'm impressed. I mean I'm impressed at your, at your cooking ability.

[Clay Travis]

You know, I was going to make, when Clay's over here, I was going to make him eggs. I make fantastic eggs. But he's like on a smoothie diet. So I was like, okay, well, just smoothies these days.

[Buck Sexton]

You know, I, I gotta try to, I gotta try to cut down the calories as much as I can. But no, I, I use the, I, I make myself sandwiches. I use the toaster. Well, they're really great with the toaster and I'm pretty skilled with our microwave. Kind of if I can't do it in one of those two places then I eat it out at some sort of restaurant or. But you know, look, I, I eat like bananas, like apples, oranges, pre made meals like I'm, I'm not, there's not a lot of bells and whistles here. Okay. Okay.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah. Ok, so now we got the other thing. The other thing.

[Buck Sexton]

Here we go. Kind of turning into a big story here. Kelly, our friend who's on the show regularly just tweeted. Sources confirm the blow up meeting between Bongino and Pam Bondi is very real. This has been brewing for four months. Came to a head at the White House on Wednesday. Bongino hasn't gone back to the FBI office since that meeting. Most of the frustration at the FBI. This is Julie Kelly relates to Bondi's handling of Epstein disclosures and disputes between FBI and Bondi about how to proceed. And here's the kicker. This is again Julie Kelly. Bongino appears ready to resign imminently if Bondi is not removed from office. Dum dum, dum. So this is now President Trump's decision. He may have to Decide do I want to keep my Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino, or my Attorney General, Pam Bondi. And one or the other is saying, hey, if this guy stays or this gal stays, I'm out. One thing, it's going to turn into a really big story. And this is a fallout from Epstein and the way this investigation's been handled.

[Clay Travis]

One thing you can't do is give an ultimatum and then walk it back. So.

[Buck Sexton]

Well, you could pull a Costanza, you could pull the George.

[Clay Travis]

But if you want to keep your, if you want to keep your credibility, right.

[Buck Sexton]

So in your power, it really is.

[Clay Travis]

You can't say it's him or, you know, it's her or me or him or me. And then it's neither. And you're like, okay, that's not, that's.

[Buck Sexton]

Not a good, let's just pretend that ultimatum didn't happen. Some of you may have had this in your job experiences before, right? You may have said, you know, I'm working with him, it's going to be me or him or me and her or whatever.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah. I will tell you, once in my life, at a job, at a job, not radio, I will say that. Not a radio job. Once in my life, I did have to have a conversation where I was like, it's either, it's either him or me. And I was told it will be him, but not for six months. And I was like, okay, I'm out. So I, I, I, actually it's an, it's an ultimatum that I've had to give myself. So I've been there, by the way, sometimes it's the right I, I, I made. I don't regret it at all. It's the right move. And they did end up fire, they did end up firing the guy, but they didn't fire him fast enough. So I said, I'm out.

[Buck Sexton]

A situation before which is somewhat similar where you're interviewing for jobs and you're like, hey, this job, this is 20 years ago, this job offered me X. Can you match X? And they're like, okay, we'll think about it. And then they come back and they're like, nope. Then you're kind of like, okay, well, either I, they're kind of calling your bluff, right? Like, so you got to be careful. Sometimes you're negotiating because you could end up negotiating yourself.

[Clay Travis]

But did you have that other offer.

[Buck Sexton]

Or were you just, oh, yeah, okay, totally. And they had offered more money, but it was eye opening and important because if somebody can't match the offer that somebody else has made for your services. It may be that they just don't value you that highly. Sometimes it's the company's not doing well enough. And maybe you can look at that and look. But if you are set to make more money at another job and you come back and you're like, hey, this is the offer I got. Can you match it? Can you get close? And they say no, kind of makes your decision easy. And so that's not the same scenario if he has to go or she has to go or I'm leaving. But it is a tough spot. And I have managed as a business. I've had situations where people have said to me, hey, if this guy stays employed, then I'm leaving. It's gotta be one or the other of us. And that's. Now, it appears, where Trump may be.

[Clay Travis]

Has that ever been a tough call for you to make, or have you always known you can go, buddy, or oh, no, don't worry, the other guy's going. You know what I'm saying? Has it ever been a close call or has it been a clear call every time?

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah, it's happened several times. Honestly, as a manager, I feel like in media it happens more.

[Clay Travis]

I was gonna say media people are hissy. You know, we get, we.

[Buck Sexton]

There's a lot of, like, petty fights that happen in media. Lots of egos, lots of. It's not gonna stun you. Narcissism, megalomania. Sometimes. Like, this is not a media universe, is not necessarily a well conditioned, normal job universe.

[Clay Travis]

I mean, I will say in that other job, by the way, it was, it was, it was me or my boss.

[Buck Sexton]

That's a, that's a bold play to go like, oh, yeah, either you have to. Yeah.

[Clay Travis]

And, and they were like, no, no, no, you're right. And, and, but it will happen. But it won't happen for a while. And I said, not good enough. And I left. So, yeah, that's a, that's a thing that you got to be, by the way, if that goes against you, you definitely can't stay. Cause if you come for the boss or your immediate boss, your immediate supervisor, and, and that doesn't go. You do not, you do not want that person writing your performance reviews going forward. That's for sure.

[Buck Sexton]

Okay, so let's go into this. You are President Trump. President Trump is headed to Texas right now to deal with real serious stuff. That is the, the flood and the aftermath. And the President doesn't get very many light things on his desk. Right. It's like serious Things all day. What are we going to do with Russia, Ukraine? What are we going to do with Israel, Iran? What are we going to do? All dilemmas. What are we going to do with the ICE agents being shot at potentially in California? I would imagine that one of the things about being president is nobody ever comes in and just says, hey, I only have good news for you, sir. Hey, it's, hey, here's just a, I've got a ton of rainbows that just alighted out. Let's just all have fun. It's, it's always there's a new issue. How does Trump handle this? Because he may well feel that the Epstein mess, that he has nothing to do with it and that this predated him and that other people have made messes of the Epstein investigation and he is just stepping into essentially a huge minefield. But if your top FBI people and your top Attorney general and your Attorney general are going head to head now, there's a big deal. The FBI provides the evidence and the investigations that allow the Department of Justice to prosecute. The Attorney general is the head of the Department of Justice. If they aren't getting along, then their ability to execute the agenda that you believe is important for the American people is not going to work. Well, leave aside the Epstein investigation for a second. This is a major interpersonal conflict. And so if he is truly being asked to choose one or the other, I don't know what he does. I don't know what you guys would do if you were the managers right now. And I think it comes down to this is how I would assess it. And I'm curious as a manager who's had to make a decision like this many times before, sometimes you can go purely personal relationships. But to me, what I would look at is say, okay, who is better at their job? Who is more indispensable to me right now at their job? If I have to choose between the two, I'm going to take the person who is the best at his or her job and tell the other person they have to go. Now, I'd prefer never to have to make that decision. So I think that's a question for Trump is where does this rank in the larger universe for him? How does he assess all of this? And by the way, remember, either way, this is going to create a bigger mess around the Epstein because if you fire your attorney general over it, a lot of people are going to say, okay, now we can finally get all these files. Pam Bondi was in on the COVID up. If Your FBI guy walks out, a lot of people are gonna say, wow, he's standing on principle. There is a cover up and he won't countenance it. And this threatens, I'm just gonna be honest with you. This threatens to turn into the kind of political infighting that all of the media in D.C. that hates Trump is going to love because it delegitimizes his ability to get everything's done. You've talked about this before and I think it's well said, Buck. The process is the punishment. As soon as this was all about Russia collusion, it wasn't that it was true. It was that it was so time consuming that it distracted from Trump's ability to execute other parts of his agenda. My concern now with the Epstein mess, look, do we want pedophiles in prison? Yes. Like, just like we want cancer saw, like, this is not. No one who's arguing on the Epstein case is like, oh, we want people who committed crimes against children not to be punished. Leave that aside. It's about the larger context of the Trump agenda. How much does Epstein, the case matter relative to everything else? This is where it could start to derail other things that are otherwise, I think more important forward thinking as opposed to looking backwards.

[Clay Travis]

We got One of our VIPs here, just wrote it. We're getting, I mean, we're getting inundated, just so you know, in real time with, with emails from VIPs with phone calls, with talkbacks, and they're pretty much all on this. So I, it's. This is, I want to talk immigration policy and I'm apparent, I'm getting, I'm getting voted down on that. I mean, here, this is from one of our VIPs. This has been Epstein. This has been a complete PR nightmare. Pam Bondi, along with Cash and Dan should have done a presser laying out explaining everything. By the way, I said that on the first day. I said that the memo was complete. That was idiocy. Ok? Putting out that memo on a Sunday from a pr. I'm not even talking cover up or conspir. I'm just, you don't put out a memo on a Sunday. That is just like, yeah, nothing to see. Like, that was a disaster. That was dumb. But ok, here VIP says, unfortunately, now we're at a point, I believe if Pam is not fired, then Dan or Cash will resign. A full accounting is required. Get this behind us. There are more important issues out there, like full deportation. I, you know, cosign on that. I, you know, that's that's about saving the entire country for, you know, keeping it as America. Clay. Yeah, I think, I think one of them is going to, one of them is going to go one way or another. I think that much is clear. Something's got to give here. Someone's got to go. I don't know who it's going to be, but there's problems. This is a problem.

[Buck Sexton]

I think that's, I always look at this from the assessment of who has created the biggest error and we don't know. Obviously everything to me, Pam Bondi giving those influencers binders and saying, hey, this is a part of the Epstein files. And then there was nothing in them. And it was a huge like, how do you make that decision? Right. Ultimately all high end jobs are about decision making. There is no, if I were Attorney general, God forbid, there is no way I'm bringing in a bunch of influencers and giving them.

[Clay Travis]

I think you'd be, I think you'd be a pretty good ag. You know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't sell yourself short there, but look at the humility from Clay all of a sudden. I think you'd be pretty good ag. I, I, I'm not getting any ideas here, by the way.

[Buck Sexton]

We need you here.

[Clay Travis]

But I'm just saying I think you do pretty good.

[Buck Sexton]

I would, I would just have looked at the optics on that and I would have said this is insanely dumb. What are we putting in these binders? Why are we parading around people with Epstein file binders that have nothing in them? Like this is basic blocking, tackling stuff. Understanding how the media works, how stories work and it just is such a mess. That to me is the biggest unforced error. And then speaking in articulately about what's on your desk and what is not, to me it is a mess and it is a self inflicted wound that is, I think frankly festering and threatens to overwhelm other aspects of the forward looking agenda right now. In the meantime, look, there's an instinct out there. You want to protect your family. That's why we have tons of objects all throughout the house provided by Sabre. Whether it's extra door locks, whether it is alarms, whether it is the pepper projectile launcher we legitimately pepper spray we have. I think this is true. Every object that saberradio.com offers, we've got them all. And it is great. It's a family owned business, 50 years products are reliable and trusted to help make you and your family safe. All non, lethal, just designed to be the Right. Tools to help protect you. Pepper prey pepper gel projectile launcher shaped like a pistol or rifle and but it doesn't have protects you, doesn't have lethal consequences. So if you've got people running around in your neighborhood, maybe it's kids, maybe it's friends, people all around your neighborhood setting off alarms. It's just happened in my house. 14 year old sneaking in and out of the house happens. You got teenagers. Go online to sabrerradio.com make good decisions. Right now you can save 15% S A B R E radio.com you can also call 844-824 safe again, just check it out. Saberradio.com that's saberradio.com 844-824 safe stories of.

[Clay Travis]

Freedom, stories of America.

[Buck Sexton]

Inspirational stories that unite us all. Each day spend time with Clay and Buck. Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back in Clay Travis, Buck Sexton show. Appreciate all of you for hanging out with us. Mark in Ocala says this is just a distraction.

[Clay Travis]

Listen, Epstein case, I think everybody involved should go to jail. I think it should be dug to the furthest limits and they all go down. But I think this is being used to distract you to the fact that not one politician who has violated RICO laws selling out this country, not one politician who created a fake Russia CL delusion hoax of the January 6 thing has been charged, indicted, subpoenaed, nothing.

[Buck Sexton]

Okay, that's true. But when the reports are out there from our friend Julie Kelly, which I believe to be accurate, that the FBI deputy director Dan Bongino has said it's either me or Attorney General Pam, Pam Bondi. That's not a manufactured story. It's real. Now. It's a result of all of the chaos surrounding the episode scene investigation. But it's significant. We'll talk about that more. We're joined by Nicole Parker, who is an FBI agent. She'll be off the top. The next segment. We'll find out what she thinks about how all this is playing out, who she would pick if she were sitting at that desk. All that more. Final hour of the week next.

[Clay Travis]

This is an iHeart podcast.