Hour 2 - Psychological Manipulation

Summary

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Hour 2 – Psychological Manipulation
Date: September 3, 2025
Podcast: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show (iHeartPodcasts)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the concept of "psychological manipulation" in media, culture, and politics, focusing especially on issues around trans advocacy in sports, cancel culture, compelled speech, and the consequences for those who voice dissenting opinions. Clay Travis shares his personal experiences of facing financial punishment for speaking out about transgender athletes in women's sports. The conversation is propelled by Malcolm Gladwell’s recent admission that he stayed silent out of fear, and explores wider implications for free speech in the West – using recent events from the UK as evidence of an encroaching intolerance for dissent. The hosts examine the role of advertising dollars, media cowardice, cultural pressure, left-wing incrementalism, and the importance of admitting one's mistakes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal and Industry Consequences of Speaking Out

• Clay shares a behind-the-scenes account of selling Outkick to Fox and the company’s lucrative relationship with FanDuel, which ended due to his public stance on trans athletes in women’s sports.

  • “FanDuel said they wouldn't work with me anymore, Buck, because I was too outspoken on the trans sports issue.” – Clay Travis [05:45]
  • “Me merely saying men should not be able to compete in women's athletics cost the company that I founded and owned around $7 million a year.” – Clay Travis [05:58]

• Buck emphasizes this wasn’t about an “opinion” but a refusal to ignore “objective fact,” likening the silencing to Soviet-style information control:

  • “You weren’t penalized, Clay, for an opinion. You were penalized for a fact... That is Soviet Union level stuff.” – Buck Sexton [06:35]

2. Malcolm Gladwell’s Admission & Cowardice in Public Discourse

• Discussion about Malcolm Gladwell admitting he refrained from stating his true beliefs on trans women in sports at an MIT sports analytics panel, fearing professional consequences.

  • “[Gladwell:] I felt… ashamed of my performance on that panel, because I share your position 100%. And I was cowed... I was objective in a dishonest way.” – Malcolm Gladwell (clip played by hosts) [08:38]

• Clay credits Gladwell for honesty, discussing the hurdles for public figures to break with the new orthodoxy:

  • “I give him credit for coming out and being honest about this. I think this is so incredibly important because there are consequences, unfortunately, when you are willing to speak the truth.” – Clay Travis [09:19]

• Buck outlines the slippery slope of leftist cultural pressure:

  • “It’s not happening – why do you care? Okay, it’s happening a little bit – it’s good. Shut your face. We’re in charge now. This was Covid, this is trans. That’s the slippery slope of leftism in America today.” – Buck Sexton [11:57]

3. The Mechanics and Purpose of Psychological Manipulation

• The hosts describe compelled speech and social silencing as deliberate psychological degradation, citing totalitarian tactics:
  • “If they can get you to say something that’s that crazy, they can get you to say anything... It degrades you psychologically. And that’s the point. They do this in all totalitarian regimes.” – Buck Sexton [14:29]

4. Role of Money, Career, and Integrity

• A discussion about the difficult tradeoffs people face: Is self-censorship justified in order to protect one’s family and livelihood?

  • “Sometimes the best thing for your family can be that you be cowardly... Your most responsible obligation is to your family… But if you got real money, sack up and own what you believe and stop being a complete and total pussy willow.” – Clay Travis [29:14, 34:17]

• Buck distinguishes between personal risk and the responsibilities of powerful, wealthy public figures to tell the truth:

  • “We’re talking about people that actually have the power, the influence, the sway and the perceived obligation to publicly speak the truth. Is Gladwell on this issue a convert or an opportunist?” – Buck Sexton [30:41]

5. Free Speech in the US & UK: Recent Arrests and ‘Protected Classes’

• Clay references an English comedian (Graham Linehan) arrested for “wrongthink” (trans-related jokes/statements), tying it to the show's broader theme.

  • “England has basically decided if you are in a protected class in their mind, then you are not allowed to be made fun of and you can actually arrest people.” – Clay Travis [26:48]

• Buck argues US Democrats wish they could do the same:

  • “For anyone who says, why should we care, the Democrat Party wishes they could do to you what just happened to this comedian in England.” – Buck Sexton [35:15]

6. Admitting Past Mistakes vs. Opportunism

• The hosts analyze whether figures like Gladwell are admitting mistakes from genuine self-reflection or from a place of opportunism:
  • “He knew what he was saying was a lie when he said it, but at least he’s willing to admit it now. And that’s where I’m giving him some form of grace.” – Clay Travis [31:39]
  • “What is your motivation for no longer going along with it? Is that you’re ashamed that you were lying or is that you realize it’s better to tell the truth now?” – Buck Sexton [32:26]
  • “A lot of people are never going to admit that they were wrong. And in the years ahead, they’re going to pretend that they never said or acted out in a way… that they have changed.” – Clay Travis [31:55]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On manufactured consensus and consequences for dissent:

  • “If they can get you to believe this, they can get you to believe that the sky is purple, the earth is flat... That’s a very powerful tool of psychological manipulation.” – Buck Sexton [14:29]

• On the necessity of free speech and ridicule:

  • “You should be able to make jokes about everybody. White, black, Asian, Hispanic, gay, straight, trans, whatever your background... You should not be immune from ridicule.” – Clay Travis [26:10]

• On the slow reversal of cultural tides:

  • “I give him some credit for acknowledging he was wrong. Because what a lot of people are going to do is... in a couple of years... say, ‘Well, everybody knew this was ridiculous all along,’ and that they never actually argued otherwise.” – Clay Travis [12:41]
  • “Five years from now, there will not be a single man in America who will say, ‘I ever thought it was okay men pretending to be women were competing...’” – Clay Travis [13:06]

• On the inevitability of change:

  • “You can learn from the errors of your ways in the past. That’s my hope. Basically, the whole purpose of aging, to me... If you believe the exact same things at 12 as you did at 80... your life experience has probably not been that expansive.” – Clay Travis [34:44]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------| | 05:45 | Clay describes FanDuel relationship ending over trans sports issue | | 08:38 | Audio: Malcolm Gladwell admits to being ‘cowed by consequences’ | | 09:45 | Buck’s blunt summary: “Dudes are not chicks and chicks are not dudes” | | 14:29 | Buck discusses psychological manipulation and totalitarianism | | 26:10 | Clay on ridicule and free speech, referencing UK comedian arrest | | 29:14 | Discussion on money, security, and courage in standing up | | 30:41 | Buck asks whether Gladwell is now a convert or an opportunist | | 31:55 | Clay on the rarity of true public admissions of fault in media | | 35:15 | Buck: “The Democrat Party wishes they could do to you what just happened to this comedian in England.” |

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Conclusion

This hour delivers a robust critique of “psychological manipulation” in current political, media, and cultural debates, with a special look at the pressure to conform on issues of gender and sports. Clay and Buck use personal anecdotes, current events, and direct listener questions to illuminate how careers and businesses are shaped or destroyed by cancel culture, and what it means for free societies when speaking an obvious truth can cost people millions or threaten their basic freedoms. The hosts praise rare public figures who break ranks (even if belatedly), debate the merits of forgiveness versus accountability, and warn listeners that the cultural battles abroad may soon be fought at home unless people stand up now.

Transcript

[Clay Travis]

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[Clay Travis]

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[Buck Sexton]

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[Clay Travis]

Welcome back in Clay Travis Buck Sexton show. We are having a fantastic Wednesday. No matter even though we have as many of you probably are dealing with the official in many ways into summer kids season, I imagine a lot of you are getting your kids back to school. There's a lot of different moving parts. We played for you some of the president with the president of Poland in the Oval Office in the first hour. And Buck, I'll take you behind the curtain here. I don't know if I've told this story before, but I'll tell you this story as we start off the second hour here because it directly ties in with a clip we're going to play for you. Uh, and if you missed the tease, Malcolm Gladwell, probably, I think the most famous nonfiction celebrity author in America. Would you buy into that designation. In terms of book sells, I don't know that anybody would have sold more copies than him.

[Buck Sexton]

It's him and Michael Lewis probably for our last 20 years or so. Those would be the two that I think are. I met him in France, by the way, for the iHeart event. So I actually met Mr. Gladwell for the first. We shook hands. I mean, he wouldn't, you know, he had no idea who I was. I was like, hey, man, what's up?

[Clay Travis]

So, yeah, so I'm gonna play a cut for. For him. I imagine a lot of you have read his books. Tipping Point is probably the most famous, but he's got a ton of different books and I think he has a very popular podcast. So I would bet a huge percentage of you are familiar with who Malcolm Gladwell is. So let me take you behind the scenes a little bit here. I sold my company Outkick to Fox in 2021. On Super Bowl Sunday, 2021, we made $2 million in affiliate revenue for from FanDuel. That is that super bowl day. The company that I ran, we and founded, we were one of the top affiliates in the entire country. So if you were watching Tom Brady, Tampa Bay Buccaneers go up against Patrick Mahomes, Kansas City Chiefs, our company and to a large extent me, made more money than anybody playing in that game. On sports gambling affiliate referral deals. We were for FanDuel, which is the biggest sports affiliate company, sports gambling company in the country. We were either their best or second best affiliate partner in the country. Pat McAfee, who now is at ESPN, was also wildly profitable for them. We were their two best at helping to promote and I love sports gambling. Obviously, we got a great relationship with prize picks, which ties in here with that. We made six, seven million dollars a year on that deal. That was important for us as a part of the company sold the company. Fanduel said they wouldn't work with me anymore, Buck, because I was too outspoken on the trans sports issue. This is a sports gambling company. They said Clay is too controversial because he is saying men should not be competing in women's sports. And fanduel is worried about the controversy that he brings for being so outspoken on that issue. As a result, fanduel was refused to work with me and as a result, refused to work without kick. So me merely saying men should not be able to compete in women's athletics cost the company that I founded and owned around $7 million a year. I don't know how much money you guys make, but $7 million a year for a media company is a big, huge part of what allows the company to be profitable, to employ tons of people. But as a matter of principle, I said I'm not going to stop talking about this, even though fanduel is saying, well, you're too controversial for saying this. So the reason why I give you that backstory is it was, Even though it's 100% the right thing to say, it took chutzpah, it took sometimes turning away from millions of dollars to say what I personally believe to be true and allow the company to be at the forefront of arguing this is.

[Buck Sexton]

No, no, no, no, no, no. Not what you personally believe to be true. What is undeniably, unequivocably, obviously, and as clear as anything could be true, which I think is an important. You weren't penalized, Clay, for an opinion. You were penalized for a fact, which is a whole lot. That is Soviet Union level stuff. That is everyone is starving. Say the grain harvest is the biggest grain harvest of all time. That is a manufactured delusion, my friend.

[Clay Travis]

And if you wonder why did people not step up against this across all of sports, only outkick and really only me at the, at the forefront of this were willing to make this argument, it's because the big advertising partners out there would grab you by the you know what, and they would squeeze if you tried to step out of line. This is the truth. Nobody else will even tell you this. I'm telling you directly. Okay, Malcolm Gladwell came out. They have a big sports conference, sports analytics conference at mit and they had a bunch of famous. Malcolm Gladwell has a connection to sports. He's a big sports fan. He's done sports related reporting and stories. And he and everybody else on that panel at the, I think it's the Sloan Kettering, MIT Institute or whatever, refused to speak out against men competing in women's sports because the consequences were real. What I just told you, it could cost your company millions of dollars. It could cost you personally millions of dollars. It could impact your employability. They were very targeted in the way that they attacked here. And now he's come out. This just happened yesterday. And Malcolm Gladwell says, hey, I was bullied, I was cowed. I was afraid of the consequences.

[Buck Sexton]

And.

[Clay Travis]

And now I'm going to tell you the truth. Men shouldn't be able to compete in women's sports.

[Unidentified Male Guest]

Listen, if we did a replay of that exact panel at the Sloan conference this coming March, it runs in exactly the opposite direction. And it would be, I suspect, near unanimity in the room that trans athletes have no place in. In the female category. I don't think this is any question. I just think it was a strange. I mean, I felt. I mean, the reason I'm ashamed of my performance of that panel, because I share your position 100%. And I was count the idea of saying anything on this issue. I was in a. I believe, in retrospect, in a dishonest way. I was. I was objective in a dishonest way.

[Clay Travis]

Okay, I give him credit for coming out and being honest about this. I think this is so incredibly important because there are consequences, unfortunately, when you are willing to speak the truth. I think your qualification is important there. This is not. This is not me arguing what the tax rate in Moldova should be. And we're sitting around and we're like, well, you know, this is.

[Buck Sexton]

This is. Dudes are not chicks and chicks are not dudes, and pretending they are is a lie. That is what this is.

[Clay Travis]

Even in the world of sports. It's beyond that, buck, because you're saying men don't have a competitive advantage, or you're sitting around, you're saying, well, we have to do studies. No, men are bigger, stronger, and faster than women.

[Buck Sexton]

But underlying all of it. Underlying all of it, and this has to be remembered, is that trans, for example, and this is usually what we're talking about in the sports context, trans women are women indistinguishable and to be treated by society and the law as women indistinguishable from women in all respects, even though they're not women. That is the actual foundational, mandatory belief of the trans movement. Right. Is that they transclate. What is the phrase? Trans women are women.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah, this is.

[Buck Sexton]

This is what they say. Trans women are women, and that's why they should be able to play in women's sports. That is a lie.

[Clay Travis]

I think this is important, though, and I see this everywhere. And people who may not be involved in media, a lot of you sit around, you say, well, how did this happen? It was. If you were willing to speak out on this issue, advertisers said, I can't. I won't work with this person anymore. And I'm talking about a frigging sports gambling company. You think that it's a coincidence that. That they're of. Of all companies that should be one that recognized, hey, men and women's sports is ridiculous. They actually pushed back and they said, even though you, Clay, and your company have made us tens of millions of dollars, which we had objective reality you could look at and say, hey, people love this. They wouldn't spend money with us anymore. And this is how they control what people say. Because most people are not willing to give up the money. They just pretend this story didn't exist. It wasn't that everybody was as outspoken as Gladwell is saying there. It was just that a lot of companies just pretended this didn't happen or they would say, as they still say now. I don't know why you care about that. Why do you even care? It doesn't happen that often. It's not that big of a.

[Buck Sexton]

Well, this is always that. This is always the progression. Right? It's not happening. It's not happening that much. Why do you care? Okay, it's happening. It's happening a little bit to. It's good. It's happening. Shut your face. We're in charge now. And this is. This is. This was Covid. This is trans. This is. This is. That is the. The slippery slope of leftism in America today. It has progressivism. It has to progress. The argument always has to go to the next level, and it's all based on lies because of course it is happening, because they know it's happening and they know it's wrong and they know they want to do more of it. But they use an incrementalist strategy to chip away at things and for. For Gladwell to come out now, Clay. Yeah, because everything has changed now. Now you can say it.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah.

[Buck Sexton]

Now you can, actually.

[Clay Travis]

Because people like me spoke out so hard and took the slings and arrows. I will say, Buck, I give him some credit for acknowledging he was wrong. Because what a lot of people are going to do is they're going to wait another couple of years and they're going to come. They're going to say, well, everybody knew this was ridiculous all along and that they never actually argued otherwise.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah, I mean, that's particularly gross. Right? But that will happen. I think that that is true.

[Clay Travis]

Five years from now, there will not be a single man in America who will say, I ever thought it was okay.

[Buck Sexton]

Oh, no, no.

[Clay Travis]

Men pretending to be women were competing.

[Buck Sexton]

I disagree with that. There will be people, Clay. There are people that this to the very end, and they think that they can get a rebound with this in time. All they have to do, they think that they will find their way back into power, back into the culture. 20% of the country is never going to abandon this. Click. 20% of the country is certifiably insane. I mean, they think that Kamala Harris was a good candidate and Joe Biden's brain was working. These people are nuts.

[Clay Travis]

Well, I say this, I mean, people who are actual sports fans, right? Because I understand on some level if you stay, if you don't know anything about sports and you think like, hey, maybe Serena Williams is better than Roger Federer at tennis, maybe they should play and maybe the woman would win, I actually give them a pass because they're so clueless on the difference of biology. But any man, I mean this honestly, any man who has ever played a high school, college and certainly a pro sport knows that the idea of men being able to compete in women's sports was, on its face, laughably absurd. And where it matters is if they can get you to argue that or if they can get you to stay silent on that, they can keep advancing the left wing agenda because they cowed you into silence.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah, well, and you've basically become complicit in your own cowardice and your own silencing. And if they can get you to say something that's that crazy, they can get you to say anything. That's the whole point. If they can get you to believe this, they can get you to believe that, you know, the sky is purple and you know, the, the earth is, is flat and you name it. And that's, that's a very powerful tool of psychological manipulation because it's degrading when the, when the state or when society forces you to, to mouth a lie, to say the slogans that they demand that you know are false. It degrades you psychologically. And that's the point. They do this in all totalitarian regimes, by the way, and they do it purposefully.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah. And let me say this too. I think the one thing I will say additionally in favor of Gladwell is this. I think America would be far better if we all acknowledge when we get things wrong. I don't think that anybody out there listening expects for you or me to get everything right. I think when we claim that we never get anything wrong, it actually delegitimizes the things that we get right. And I do think Malcolm Gladwell coming out and saying, yes, it's convenient now, yes, the consequences and the stakes and the punishment for being on the quote, unquote, wrong side of the ledger on this issue are much de. Minimized because we won this battle so far. But I do think being willing to acknowledge we said it like I said it was going to be a red tsunami in 2022, didn't get it. I had to wear it like I was wrong. Now, we got a lot right about the 2024 election, but I don't think people out there trusted us less because you got something wrong. Because everybody gets that things wrong. Well, that's a prediction, too.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah, there's a difference between a prediction which is inherently uncertain and telling a lie. Yes, one. One goes to analysis and nobody's perfect. Another goes to your selling out. And a lot of people, I will.

[Clay Travis]

Tell you, everyone sold out.

[Buck Sexton]

I won't name them because I don't. I don't. People can always, even people on the other side, if they ask to speak to me in confidence, I keep. I keep confidence. I know some prominent Democrats in the media, Clay, who would say to me offline, oh, the trans thing is crazy, but the agenda is crazy, But I can't, I can't say it because my side would eat me alive.

[Clay Travis]

Yep, yep, we'll talk. We'll take some of your calls. Maybe some of you want to react to that. Also, we want to talk about the arrests that happened in England, which I actually think is connected to wrong think, which Malcolm Gladwell was somewhat addressing in the meantime. Look, we're a pro military show. We have tons of respect for all the brave men and women who give so much to defend our country and our freedoms. That's one of many reasons we love our sponsor, Pure Talk. In addition to offering quality cell phone service at a great value, 25 bucks a month, unlimited talk text, plenty of data, they also stand proudly with our military. In fact, Pure Talk was founded by a veteran hires veterans keeping jobs at home doesn't stop there. PureTalk has raised nearly half a million dollars to prevent veteran suicide. They've forgiven millions of dollars in veteran debt, and they've given away more than a thousand flags to veterans this year. If you haven't switched your cell phone service to PureTalk, now's a great time to do so. Just dial £2 5 0, say the keywords Clay and Buck, and you'll save an additional 50% off your first month. Again, that's £250, say Clay and Buck. Pure Talk's US customer service team will help you switch in as little as 10 minutes. PureTalk, a cell phone company worth bragging about. You don't know what you don't know, right? But you could. On the Sunday hang with Clay and.

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[Clay Travis]

Now you can stream Fox News Live on the Fox One app. Stay on top of breaking news and the biggest stories live as they happen, all from the FOX voices you trust, bringing you the coverage you won't find anywhere else.

[Buck Sexton]

Start your 7 day free trial today. Offers are subject to change. Go to Fox one for complete terms and conditions. Fox one, we live for live streaming now. Welcome back in here to Clay and Buck. We'll be taking your calls, your talkbacks, your emails this hour and want to do some of that right now. And we have a VIP email from William. He says, do you think the LGB wishes they could drop the T and then the rest of the letters and symbols. They had found so much acceptance, but now the other letters have set them back. I think that there was a very large, well funded and powerful pro gay and lesbian, you know, apparatus agenda organizations out there. And then we got to Obergefell and then there was this whole, what do these organizations do now? Right? What do they do now? Like, what's, what's. Okay, the Obergefell happens and now it's so now what? And I think that there was a, A, I'm not talking about on an individual basis so much as an organizational entity, you know, NGO basis. But Clay, I think that the decision was made. Well, now we got to go all in on the, on the trans stuff, on the T stuff. And I, I do think that it is, it is backfiring because it is rooted in what is fundamentally untrue, which is I think man can be a woman and vice versa.

[Clay Travis]

I think a lot of gay people are ready to kick the tease to the curb. I think they're like, there is a big difference. Candidly. I mean, that's a big. And I don't even know what the rest of LGBTQI like. I don't even know where the rest.

[Buck Sexton]

Of the intersect asexual and then anything else you can think.

[Clay Travis]

Okay. All right. So there's a big difference there and I think a lot of gay people are over being connected to some of this craziness. Most gay people don't think it's right to chop kids genitals off when they're 12. I mean this is, this is bonkers stuff.

[Buck Sexton]

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[Clay Travis]

Today Ben Shapiro of the Daily Wire is going to join us at the top of the next hour. He's got a new book out and he'll be in our New York City studio. So just FYI, that's what's coming in the next hour. And I bet we will get into that with them, with him. This story coming out of out of England and this to me ties in with what I just shared with you about you're not allowed to say that men shouldn't be able to compete in women's sports. Oh, that's anti trans. That's an unacceptable opinion. And if you say it, we'll restrict your ability to make a living. We'll try to attack the company that you run. We will pull back from you. I think what you are seeing is many countries in Europe that otherwise we see as peer group nations are now severely curtailing free speech even as it pertains to jokes. And I have made this argument it's in my new book that's going to be out in November. I made it in the most recent book that I wrote, American Playbook. Sometimes there are opportunities that you never would have believed that are real. This is one of them that I think is out there culturally, that is, that should be grabbed by the Republican Party. Republicans should be people who like jokes. And I give credit to J.D. vance because I think younger Republicans get it. South park came after J.D. vance and Marco Rubio and a lot of other people on the right, and they just laughed at it. I give credit to people who can be targets of humor and say, hey, make fun of me as much as you want. Jokes are good. And this decision that there are jokes that can be made that would lead to when you get off of a plane in England, five armed officers immediately grab you and basically start the process of whether you can enter the country or not.

[Buck Sexton]

I think the content, though, of the joke is important to get out there right away, which is trans stuff.

[Clay Travis]

Yes, that's why I'm saying it's connected. Yes.

[Buck Sexton]

Right, right. Yeah. But that's, you make trans jokes or even just trans statements or, you know, that are viewed as, quote, anti trans, you can get arrested. If you make what are viewed as anti Muslim or anti immigrant statements, you can get arrested. It's very clear. You'll notice there's nothing that you can say that will upset right wing people in the UK that will get you arrested. That's it. It's only this global internationalist Soros sponsored leftism, that and all that that encompasses that will get you arrested in the UK And I don't know, I mean, to me, the United Kingdom, I think, I think it's on a glide path into the side of the mountain, so to speak. I'm not sure that they can, they can fix this, Clay, because you don't see anybody of any heft or particular in politics. You see J.K. rowling on the literary side on this issue. But, you know, the fact that they could allow this stuff to happen and that they arrested this guy when he came back and the airline was part, you know, the airline coordinated, made sure that they're, I mean, they treated this guy like an international terrorist. It's like Carlos the Jackal was getting off the plane at Heathrow.

[Clay Travis]

I, I, I think this, this directly ties in with what I told you about what happened with Fanduel and what happened with my business. I give immense credit to J.K. rowling. She wrote probably the best children's book series of all time.

[Buck Sexton]

Whoa. CS Lewis wants a word.

[Clay Travis]

Claire, I am telling you, more people read that. I've got my 10 year old reading the Harry Potter books right now. People don't read anymore. And I think the reason we have any readers at all who are in their twenties is to a large extent J.K. rowling. She was a billionaire, is a billionaire. She could have stayed out of the fray. She was not willing to stay silent. And I think most people are not J.K. rowling. They make their money and they want to stay in the good graces and they want to get on the right charity boards and they want to make sure that they're considered to be quote, unquote, good people. And so they were willing to follow a lie to the point now where comedians who make jokes about trans people and by the way, you should be able to make jokes about everybody. White, black, Asian, Hispanic, gay, straight, trans, whatever your background is. You should not be immune from ridicule or use of humor against you satire, any other device because of your identity. And this is I think one of the most important things that Republicans should get behind. Sometimes you get made fun of and a joke stings. Sometimes it can even hurt. That's okay. That's being a grown up. It's more important people. You should see what some of the things people sometimes say even mean things about me. I know it's hard to believe, but you have to accept that in a free society sometimes people are going to say awful things about you in order for free speech to flourish. And England has basically decided if you are in a protected class in their mind, then you are not allowed to be made fun of and you can actually arrest people. And this is not just England, this is Germany, this is France. This is all over the western.

[Buck Sexton]

Canada's right there too. Canada with the trans stuff in particular. But Clay, how do you. I'm returning a little bit here to the discussion about Malcolm Gladwell because you're saying I give him credit. And when you said that I it it.

[Clay Travis]

I'm not great with that word.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah, it grates my ears a little bit. And I think this maybe goes to, you know, Clay is, Clay is the, the jollier. The jollier of the duo. He's the, he's the more willing to say, yeah, I like that guy. Clay likes more. Clay likes more people than I do. But I would say this, what's the difference? Or how do you differentiate between somebody who was taking the popular position then and someone who's just taking the more popular position now? As in Is it opportunism or is it an admission? Because right now the winds of culture are blowing very strongly in the. Yeah, we can't have 200 guys named Tom pretending that they're named Talia and. And, you know, crush all the girls on the women's lacrosse team.

[Clay Travis]

I expect that most people are cowards, and Covid convinced me that most people are cowards. And much like you, I am not over that. And some cowardice I tend to be lenient on, because sometimes the best thing for your family can be that you be cowardly. And some people are going to get fired up about that. But what I mean by that is I think of things as like a hierarchy, right? Number one to me, your most responsible obligation to me, people can argue about this is your family. I mean, people who are alive in your world that live inside of your home. Your job is to be absolutely loyal to your kids, to your spouse. Like that is the people that you go to war for first, right? Then other family members, other things, right? So I think there are a lot of people out there listening who have a job. And I know that all of you are.

[Buck Sexton]

Are.

[Clay Travis]

Are nodding along, a ton of you right now. And they say early on in that trans world, if I had gone out and I had said some of the things that you said, Clay, I might have gotten fired. And my number one job is to take care of. Right, You.

[Buck Sexton]

And I said, but this. This is a different thing now. I'm talking about public figures with a lot of money and a lot of influence.

[Clay Travis]

These are the people that I have particular contempt for, because at some point in time, and I don't know, you can draw the line on whatever dollars.

[Buck Sexton]

Because I just want to be clear, I've been telling kids, like college kids for years when they come up at, like, a live event or speech or whatever I've been doing for 15, going on 16 years, they say, should I write a paper where I tell my communist professor, like, the truth? I'm like, no, write a paper where you don't lie. I think it's Voltaire. Like, everything you say should be true, but you don't have to say everything that is true, right? So don't lie, but don't think you're going to have. You're just going to get an F, and then you're not going to get the job or the graduate opportunity you want, et cetera, et cetera, right? Like, there's no point in charging a machine gun nest that you're just going to get mowed down and be another casualty. But we're talking about people that actually have the power, the influence, the sway and the. And the perceived obligation to publicly speak the truth. And what I'm asking you is, you know, is Gladwell on this issue a convert or an opportunist?

[Clay Travis]

Yeah, I think it's a good question. I will say that he knew what he was saying was a lie when he said it, but at least he's willing to admit it now. And that's where I'm giving him some form of grace.

[Buck Sexton]

And that's a distinction. That's a distinction, yeah.

[Clay Travis]

A lot of people are never going to admit that they were wrong. And in the years ahead, they're gonna. They're gonna. They're gonna pretend that they never said or acted out in a way that, that. That they have changed.

[Buck Sexton]

But so I think you've established, though, and I'm glad we. I asked you about this, because the standard really then is maybe there were people who truly believed this then, and now they don't believe it. That's one offer. That's one possibility.

[Clay Travis]

As in they really changing your mind can happen. Right.

[Buck Sexton]

But then there's the people who knew it was a lie, went along with it as a lie, and now are no longer going along with it as a lie. And you say, ok, what is your motivation for no longer going along with it? Is that you're ashamed that you were lying or is that you realize it's better to tell the truth now?

[Clay Travis]

I think there are people who are ashamed because they know they were lying and they are now aware that the consequences for telling the truth are less significant. And so they come out and they now have this public statement. Where I give Gladwell credit is he could just have pretended this never happened. Right. A lot of people who are wrong on things just pretend that that never happened. And then they just move on. And 10, 15 years from now, they would never acknowledge, for instance, there are people listening to us right now that in the early days of COVID were super angry at some of the things that you and I said and super angry at some of the things that you and I did. And then over time, they realized that they had been lied to and we were correct. I give people grace for recognizing that they've been wrong. This is why I try to be as public as I can about the way that I voted in the past. I think I got elections wrong. I think I supported people who, in retrospect, as I've gotten older, I shouldn't have. And that's what I think age and wisdom can provide is better clarity. You can learn from the errors of your ways in the past. That's my hope. Basically, the whole purpose of aging, to me, if you believe the exact same things that 12 as you did at 80 and vice versa, I would suggest your life experience has probably not been that expansive anyway. The people that I'm still angry about, though, are at some point. What is the point of having FU money if you don't say exactly what you think? That's the benefit to me of wealth is no one can make my family have to struggle for the rest of my life to live, to have lodging, to live a high quality of life. So I don't care what anybody thinks about any of my opinions because they can't do anything to me. That's, to me, the best thing about having FU money. For all the people out there that are shrinking violence and know the truth and have more money than they could ever spend. And some of you are listening to me right now. Why are you such cowards? Again, the point I was making, buck, is I understand when you got college tuition to pay, when you got a job that you got to have, when you got a mortgage to pay, I understand why discretion can be the better side of valor. But if you got real money, sack up and own what you believe and stop being a complete and total pussy willow. Because those are the people I get mad about.

[Buck Sexton]

And just to bring it back to the England arrest for one second, for anyone who says, why should we care, the Democrat Party wishes they could do to you what just happened to this comedian in England. Yes, truly, without exaggeration, they wish that you too could be arrested getting off a plane for making an anti trans joke or making a joke about trans, period, because you're erasing trans, because you're part of the trans genocide. They want to do this to you too, and they want to do it now. Now, thanks to Trump and conservatives and the Republican Party and the right, currently, they can't do that, at least not really. But they want to do it. And I think that's why it's important for us to see that this is happening not in North Korea. This is happening in England. This is happening in the United Kingdom. This is happening in the country that, other than Canada, is probably the closest to us in terms of our sense of rule of law and freedom and everything else of any country in the world. So it's important to take note of this. You know, President Trump wants to see our country emerge as the leader in artificial intelligence. We had it, and then the Biden administration squandered some of that lead. And now China, India, Russia, they're working together and they're trying to outpace us on this. This is a big deal. Trump sees this as a crucial technology for American leadership in national security and the economy. AI is going to be the most valuable resource that we've got going forward. And this administration is planning an estimated trillion dollar plus investment drawing in multiple partners. It's what I call Manhattan Project to to take back our lead in the air arms race and potentially engage a handful of US Firms with billions in new contracts. And this could trigger an investment boom in a handful of companies as soon as October 15th. I break it all down in a brand new interview, including the companies I believe could soar when this happens. Find this new interview and all the details at a website. We're taking this off air, so to speak. Go to off air25.com watch this presentation and subscribe today. Off air25.com that's off air25.com paid for.

[Clay Travis]

By Paradigm Press, News and Politics, but also a little comic relief, Clay Travis and Buck Sexton. Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Clay Travis]

Now you can stream Fox News Live on the Fox One app. Stay on top of breaking news and the biggest stories live as they happen, all from the Fox voices you trust, bringing you the coverage you won't find anywhere else.

[Buck Sexton]

Start your 7 day free trial today. Offers are subject to change. Go to Fox one for complete terms and conditions. Fox one we live for live streaming now. Welcome back in here to Clay and Buck. We've got, we've got Ben Shapiro joining us in a few minutes to talk about, well, what's going on in the world. And also he's got a new book out. We're looking forward to talking to Ben about that. We got a lot of talkbacks and emails and all these things. Oh, my. And let's start with. You know what? We haven't had a Miami talk back in a Couple of days. DD Osvaldo from Miami, who listens on 6 10W I O D Play it.

[DD Osvaldo]

Hey, Clay and Buck. And unintended consequence of overthrowing Maduro is that hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans here in the United States will no longer be able to claim political asylum. And in fact, many thousands of them would probably be glad to return to a true democracy if we can achieve that. And the same goes for Cuba.

[Buck Sexton]

So just to be clear, it sounds to me like Osvaldo is like, let's overthrow Maduro. Right? I mean, that's. He said unintended consequence, but I feel like that's the intended consequences that that would happen. Right. Am I missing that?

[Clay Travis]

No, I. For people who missed it, we were talking about the attack on the drug vessel off the coast of Venezuela.

[Buck Sexton]

Missile strike on a speedboat against some drug smugglers is what it was.

[Clay Travis]

The videotape is out there and we have brought many of our assets in the, in the seas closer and closer to Venezuela. And I think we are letting Maduro know that he's on a short leash and, and there are in South Florida tons of people who have fled Venezuela because the country has basically been taken over by, as you said, I mean, Maduro is in many ways the head of the narco terrorism that is emanating from Venezuela. I mean, he's made.

[Buck Sexton]

He's a cartel, he's a designated cartel leader, the actual head of Venezuela, officially by the United States treasury and by the US Government, Therefore he's a designated. So it's like El Chapo runs Venezuela now, more or less. Although Chapo, I know he's in prison somewhere. Right. But yeah, that's like, who runs Venezuela effectively.

[Clay Travis]

And so what might happen there as again, there are massive amounts of American assets in the oil industry in particular, that I think there is a hope that, that we can unlock in potentially new leadership again. We'll see what happens with that. We come back, we'll talk about the Graham Linehan that is the comedian's name situation in England with Ben Shapiro and Coldplay.

[Buck Sexton]

We're going to beat up on Coldplay.

[Clay Travis]

Let's do it.

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[Carol Markowitz]

You want smart political talk without the meltdowns? We got you and I'm Carol Markowitz. And I'm Mary Kathryn Hamm. We've been around the block in media and we're doing things differently.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Normally is about real conversations, thoughtful, try to be funny, grounded and no panic.

[Carol Markowitz]

We'll keep you informed and entertained without ruining your day.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Join us every Tuesday and Thursday Normally.

[Carol Markowitz]

On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.