Hour 2 - Russia Hoax Charges

Summary

Summary of "The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show"
Episode: Hour 2 - Russia Hoax Charges
Release Date: July 29, 2025

In the second hour of "The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show," hosted by iHeartPodcasts, Clay Travis and Buck Sexton engage in a deep dive into the controversial topic of the alleged Russia collusion hoax. Joined by Sean Davis, CEO and co-founder of The Federalist, the discussion centers around recent revelations that challenge the established narrative of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

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1. Introduction

The hour begins with a brief introduction of Sean Davis, highlighting his role at The Federalist and setting the stage for an in-depth conversation about the Russia collusion narrative and its implications.

2. Overview of Russia Collusion Hoax Allegations

Sean Davis initiates the discussion by referencing his recent conversations with Tulsi Gabbard in Washington, D.C., about the so-called "deep state mess" within agencies like the CIA. He emphasizes that both he and Molly Hemingway from The Federalist have been scrutinizing these allegations for over a decade.

Sean Davis [01:36]:

"The rest of the media, obviously they were in on the collusion, right? I mean, they were in on the whole hoax, the fraud."

3. Recent Developments and Document Releases

Clay Travis elaborates on the historical context of the Russia collusion narrative, identifying two main pillars: the assertion that Donald Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election and that Russia's interference was intended to aid Trump's victory. He references the Steele dossier and the Mueller investigation, labeling them as baseless.

Recently, document releases from Tulsi Gabbard have purportedly revealed that intelligence agencies, including the CIA, were aware that the claims about Russian interference were unfounded. Clay accuses former Obama administration officials, such as John Brennan and James Comey, of ignoring expert advice and perpetuating false intelligence.

Clay Travis [02:31]:

"The CIA knew it was a lie. Obama and Brennan and Comey were all told it was a lie from their own experts and they went ahead with it anyway. They cooked the books, they fabricated evidence, they ignored the experts, and they put out this bogus intel community assessment."

4. Calls for Accountability and Legal Action

The conversation shifts to potential repercussions for those allegedly responsible for propagating the false narrative. Clay Travis expresses a desire for legal accountability, specifically targeting high-profile figures like Comey, Brennan, Clapper, McCabe, and Strzok.

Clay Travis [04:57]:

"If I could wave a magic wand, I'd make two things happen. Number one, Comey, Brennan, Clapper, McCabe, and Strzok would all go to prison because somebody has to pay a price for the crimes they perpetrated against the country."

He also stresses the importance of institutional reforms to prevent such abuses of power in the future, referencing a declassified HPSI report that offers recommendations on restructuring the intelligence community to safeguard against political corruption.

5. Presidential Immunity and Obama’s Involvement

Sean Davis brings up the involvement of former President Barack Obama and top intelligence officials, questioning the likelihood of holding them accountable given the complexities of presidential immunity.

Sean Davis [07:51]:

"Obama and his top people in the IC colluded to essentially hobble the Trump administration."

Clay discusses the challenges of prosecuting a former president, suggesting that it might be more feasible to hold individual intelligence officials accountable rather than Obama himself.

Clay Travis [08:38]:

"Might it be better to look at what Brennan and Comey and Clapper did and say, you know what, they actually defrauded Obama."

6. Discussion on Intelligence Community’s Future and Reforms

The dialogue explores the current state and future of the intelligence community in light of these revelations. Clay praises current efforts by DNI Ratcliffe and Tulsi Gabbard for pushing for transparency and accountability.

Clay Travis [06:56]:

"I would like to know all of the people who touched the lies, who signed the affidavits for the FISA warrants. We need complete and total transparency."

Sean Davis adds that while internal disagreements within intelligence agencies are common due to the nature of intelligence analysis, systemic cultural changes are necessary to prevent future misconduct.

Sean Davis [23:21]:

"There's this sort of public retribution against their reputations, Brandon Clapper and others. But you have to change the culture of these places. And that's a long term, that's a long term thing."

7. Listener Q&A

The show transitions to a listener Q&A segment, where callers pose questions about legal strategies and the feasibility of holding officials accountable.

• Charles from Northampton, PA inquires about the possibility of civil lawsuits against involved individuals for slander, libel, and other damages.

  Clay Travis [25:30]:

  "Maybe recovery of expenses for court costs, maybe slander, libel, loss of wages, emotional distress, punitive damages towards Obama and the Clintons and Comey Clapper Brennan."

• Tim from North Indiana asks about the applicability of RICO statutes to the alleged conspiracy.

  Sean Davis [28:10]:

  "Using RICO, I think is a really good idea."

Clay and Sean discuss the practical challenges of such legal actions, including high legal thresholds like proving intent and the difficulties in securing convictions against high-profile figures.

8. Conclusion

The hour concludes with reflections on the broader implications of the Russia hoax allegations. Both hosts express skepticism about achieving substantial legal accountability for the involved individuals but emphasize the importance of transparency and continued scrutiny.

Clay Travis [09:43]:

"Why is Congress in their oversight committee not doing the exact same things to the left? Why is DOJ not doing the exact same things to the left that they did to our side for eight years?"

Sean Davis [32:36]:

"None of them are going to prison. Ok? This is, I'm just, none of them are going to prison and I don't even think they're going to get charged."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Sean Davis [01:36]:

  "The rest of the media, obviously they were in on the collusion, right? I mean, they were in on the whole hoax, the fraud."

• Clay Travis [02:31]:

  "The CIA knew it was a lie. Obama and Brennan and Comey were all told it was a lie from their own experts and they went ahead with it anyway."

• Clay Travis [04:57]:

  "Comey, Brennan, Clapper, McCabe, and Strzok would all go to prison because somebody has to pay a price for the crimes they perpetrated against the country."

• Sean Davis [07:51]:

  "Obama and his top people in the IC colluded to essentially hobble the Trump administration."

• Clay Travis [09:43]:

  "Why is DOJ not doing the exact same things to the left that they did to our side for eight years?"

• Sean Davis [32:36]:

  "None of them are going to prison. Ok? This is, I'm just, none of them are going to prison and I don't even think they're going to get charged."

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Key Takeaways

• Allegations of a Russia Collusion Hoax: The discussion centers on claims that the narrative of Russian interference to aid Donald Trump's 2016 campaign was fabricated, with high-level officials knowingly promoting false intelligence.

• Demand for Accountability: Both hosts express a strong desire to see individuals like Comey, Brennan, and Clapper face legal repercussions for their alleged roles in perpetuating the hoax.

• Presidential Immunity Challenges: The conversation delves into the complexities of holding a former president accountable, suggesting that prosecuting subordinates might be more feasible.

• Intelligence Community Reforms: There is consensus on the need for significant reforms within the intelligence community to prevent future abuses of power and ensure transparency.

• Skepticism About Legal Outcomes: Despite the serious allegations, both hosts remain skeptical about the likelihood of any charges being filed or convictions being secured against the implicated individuals.

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This episode provides a critical examination of the Russia collusion narrative, fueled by recent document releases and ongoing investigations. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton, alongside Sean Davis, present a perspective that challenges mainstream narratives, advocating for transparency and accountability within the highest levels of government and intelligence agencies.

Transcript

[Clay Travis]

This is an Iheart podcast.

[Buck Sexton]

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[Sean Davis]

All right, welcome in second hour, Clay and Buck gets going. Right now we're joined by our friend Sean Davis, CEO and co founder of the Federalist. Go to the federalist.com it is one of our favorite sites on the World Wide Web, which I don't think anybody calls it anymore really that, but it is the world wide web. Federalist.com, great work there, including what we're about to talk about. Sean, thanks for taking a break from what you're doing to chat with us. What's going on?

[Clay Travis]

Well, thanks for having me back. It's a pleasure.

[Sean Davis]

Let's dive into this man, shall we? Because so DNI Gabbard, I sat down with her and we had a discussion in D.C. about a month, month ago about a lot of things. And certainly one of her mandates is to clean up the deep state mess that was, well, really the rot that spread from the top down in places like the CIA. She has released information about the the soft coup attempt or said the nonviolent coup attempt, maybe a better way to put it against Donald Trump. You are following us very closely now. You and Molly Hemingway, your colleague at the Federalist, have been on this for a decade now. What is new and important that has come out? We're going to walk everyone through this because the rest of the media, obviously they were in on the collusion, right? I mean, they were in on the whole hoax, the fraud. What is new that people need to know about now?

[Clay Travis]

So I think to understand the importance of the new developments, I think it's important to take a step back and look at what they were trying to do with the Russia collusion hoax back in 16 and 17 and 18. And there were two main pillars of that entire hoax. The one of them was that Donald Trump personally colluded with Russia and Putin to steal the election from Hillary, that he was an agent of Russia and that he was working with them. That was the whole Steele dossier. That was the bulk of the Mueller thing. We know that was bunk. We've known that was bunk for a long time. But before they could even get to that phase of the operation, they had the first point, which was the claim that Russia meddled in our election in 2016 for the purpose of helping Donald Trump because Putin wanted Trump to win. That was injected into the bloodstream, and that was necessary to be there for people to believe that Trump colluded. But what we learned last week from the document releases from Tulsi Gabbard is that that claim was a lie. The CIA knew it was a lie. Obama and Brennan and Comey were all told it was a lie from their own experts and they went ahead with it anyway. They cooked the books, they. They fabricated evidence, they ignored the experts, and they put out this bogus intel community assessment, claiming that Russia had interfered for the purpose of helping Donald Trump win. And that was a lie.

[J.R. Martinez]

All right, Sean, thanks for coming on with us. Thanks for also sharing. Great hometown or family town right now. I'm sure you saw that the state of Tennessee, according to cnbc, was the worst place in America to live. And I think I speak for everyone out there when I say, yeah, you're right, it's awful. Please don't come here. But you're running the Federalist, and I bet you get asked this question a lot. And it's the number one question I get asked as it regards to this story, let's pretend you had a magic wand and you were able to dictate policy from this point. Going forward, as it pertains to what happened with Russia, what should happen in your mind? If you had that magic wand and you were able to direct policy, what do you think will happen? What is the significance? In other words, going forward, not looking back, looking forward prospectively as to what should happen and what will happen here.

[Clay Travis]

Starting two things. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd make two things happen. Number one, Comey, Brennan, Clapper, McCabe and Strzok would all go to prison because somebody has to pay a price for the crimes they perpetrated against the country.

[J.R. Martinez]

At minimum, they would be charged with a crime. If you were able. Okay, that is a concrete action. That's good. Okay, what else?

[Clay Travis]

And then the second. So that we're going to put that in, like, kind of the law enforcement accountability for the fraud bucket. The other bucket is we have to make sure that something like this never happens again. And there was actually a recommendation, which was a really good one in the document that came out last week, which was a declassified HPSI report and investigation of the ICA and then recommendations on what to do with it. And I think this business where you had these. These political appointees going in and cooking the books and saying, you know, we don't care if you don't think it's true. Recall that John Brennan said of the Steele dossier accusations, when told they were not true and not corroborated, but don't they ring true? There has to be a way to remove that type of political corruption from the process. And it's interesting, for a long time, we kind of were led to believe that all the experts agreed on the ica, that they all agreed that Russia was doing this to help Trump. And the reality that we learned was that the experts were saying, no, that's not true. And it was the Democrat political appointees who demanded that it go in and be released.

[Sean Davis]

So what would you like to see now from the DNI in terms of either further transparency and. Or actions from within the ic, the intelligence community, Sean, to deal with this at those levels? Right. There's the accountability and there's preventing this from happening in the future. What. What do you think we should see from DNI Gabbard and DCIA Ratcliffe, the Director of Central Intelligence, to get to those two goals?

[Clay Travis]

Well, I think they've done a great job so far. You know, Ratcliffe, to my understanding, was trying to get these documents out back in 2020, even before the election, and was stymied by then CIA Director Gina Haspel, who. It's interesting, she was running London's office as the station chief back when some of the original hoax intel that became the basis of Crossfire Hurricane came through the London Embassy. I would like to know more about her role. I would like to know all the intel that was used. I would like to know all of the people who touched the lies, who signed the affidavits for the FISA warrants. I think we need complete and total transparency and openness about every single aspect of how that hoax was run from the beginning. And luckily, so far, it seems like Ratcliffe and Gabbard are on the same page. There I'm thankful that they have been as forthright as they have been.

[Sean Davis]

Also, the Obama factor in all this, the names that you're talking about here, Sean Brennan, Clapper.

[Clay Travis]

Right.

[Sean Davis]

Clapper was the Director of National Intelligence. Brenner was the Director of Central Intelligence. Brennan had been Obama's counterterrorism czar in the White House previously. Obama, though, is very clearly implicated in this, too. Now, Clay and I have talked about how he was the president. The Supreme Court's weighed in. He's not going to face charges. But I do think it's important for people to understand that this wasn't the IC independent of the White House under the Obama administration. The collusion included the collusion of Obama and his top people in the IC to try to essentially hobble the Trump administration.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah, and I think that's a tricky one. You know, number one, we had the kind of presidential immunity thing. Obviously, a president can't go out and, like, pop someone in the head and be like, I can kill whoever I want. I'm president. There's limits to it, clearly. But the Supreme Court has ruled that the president has a wide latitude to execute the authorities of his office. I actually wonder, in looking what happened if there is a better case to be given that Obama's probably not going to get hauled into a court and have cuffs slammed on him. Might it be better to look at what Brennan and Comey and Clapper did and in the things they did in response to Obama saying, get all the intel, Might it be a better option to look at what they did and say, you know what, they actually defrauded Obama. He told them to get this info with the expectation that what he was going to be given was accurate. And instead they all got together and colluded and conspired to give him bogus intel and to defraud not just the American people, but the Commander in Chief and President of the United States as well? I wonder if that might be a better tack to take going forward.

[J.R. Martinez]

I think that's a super interesting idea. We're talking to Sean Davis. You can check him out at the Federalist. Does great work there. Okay. I mentioned if you had the magic wand, a lot of this audience, and I would put myself in this category, is very skeptical that anybody in a position of power in the Democrat Party is ever going to be held accountable for anything that they have ever done. And I think this is where a lot of the frustration. Epstein, everything else comes. You are Grandma who walked in the Capitol, Jan.6, Merrick Garland, the Biden DOJ. I mean, they will maniacally focus on it to the extent that they're going to do a pre morning raid to arrest you for trespassing on that day. Meanwhile, you got all these different alleged crimes being committed by people in positions of power on the left in the Democrat Party. What do you think the chances are if you were handicapping right now, Sean, that there will actually be charges brought? I'm not even talking about convictions. I'm just talking about charges brought against any of these individuals related to what they did surrounding the Russia collusion lie.

[Clay Travis]

That's a hard question because I'm not involved obviously in the internal discussions about those types of charges. I think they're far better now than they ever have been. Just kind of reading between the lines of things we've seen and heard from Ratcliffe, from Gabbard, from Bondi. Bondi forming these DOJ task forces to go after the Russia hoaxers as opposed to doing a special counsel, I think is a really good idea. These task forces have traditionally been used by the federal government to get quite cooperations from all the various agencies and were a major tool used against the mob, against racketeering, against organized crime early on, which is something you have to kind of look at. You have to look at an organized conspiracy in order to get around a lot of these statute of limitations that you have. But I think it's important to look at what happened. Like J6ers, these were people who were put through the wringer. They were bankrupted, their families were terrorized, they were eventually pardoned. Why is the right not putting the left and the people who've done far, far worse things to this country and committed far greater crimes, why are they not subjecting them to the same punishment by process that the left is doing? Because if anyone has ever been involved in any sort of lawsuit, criminal or civil, they'll tell you it's awful, it's miserable, it saps you of all types of energy and focus. And what I don't understand is why is Congress in their oversight committee not doing the exact same things to the left? Why is DOJ not doing the exact same things to the left that they did to our side for eight years? Because I do think the process is the punishment and our side was terrorized by the process for eight years. And it's about time the other side gets a turn in the barrel if we're ever going to get to a point where people decide we can't do this anymore.

[J.R. Martinez]

Last question for you. A little bit Quick here, maybe on the answer, and I know it's not a topic that necessarily lends itself to a rapid answer. If the Trump team were listening right now, and I think there's probably a decent chance that some of them are, what advice would you give them on what they should do for the Epstein controversy at this point?

[Clay Travis]

Oh man.

[J.R. Martinez]

30 seconds.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah, I wish they would just release everything. I get why that is difficult. They've got an appeal with Ghislaine Maxwell going on now. There's a lot of victim rights stuff. I wish they would release everything. And if the conclusions are different than what people are expecting, walk us through why that is what they looked at. I just think openness and transparency is the most important antidote here. And I think it got oversold very early on by some people in the administration and that caused them a lot of problems and they're now having to dig themselves out from that.

[J.R. Martinez]

I know I said last question, but I'm actually curious. You run a digital media site. I sold one several years ago. Can you tell a difference in the ad market in Trump 2.0 compared to Trump 1.0? Does it feel fairer to you based on the business that you run?

[Clay Travis]

It doesn't to me. We were targeted for extinction by the Biden admin and the entire left wing censorship industrial complex. They try to get us blacklisted from Google, from Facebook. They went after all the major ad players, got us blacklisted there. So I'd say no, we, we have not seen any difference yet. But it's because of the damage that was done to us by our own government and our own tax dollars illegally. Was, was pretty significant. And so I haven't seen a big change in the ad market yet, at least for us.

[J.R. Martinez]

That's something we should have a longer form discussion about sometime. SEAN davis, the Federalist because I do think that's a story that a lot of people don't understand, how aggressively the Biden team went after digital truth tellers, in my opinion, to try to bankrupt them. And most of that story really hasn't been told to a large degree. Appreciate the time, Sean.

[Clay Travis]

Thank you both. Take care.

[J.R. Martinez]

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[Buck Sexton]

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[J.R. Martinez]

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[Clay Travis]

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[J.R. Martinez]

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[J.R. Martinez]

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[Clay Travis]

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[J.R. Martinez]

Welcome back in Clay Travis Buck Sexton Show Appreciate all of you hanging out with us as we are rolling through the Tuesday edition of the program here. And Sean's perspective there, I think is really interesting because and I'm sure you have felt this too, Buck, and maybe we'll take some calls on this. 800-282-2882. I think what I kind of sense is that there is a deep seated distrust that anything consequential is going to happen for any of this. And I understand why. Because, you know, look, I think the chances of Obama being charged, I think Trump did a good job of tamping that down. And you just heard Sean Davis talk about presidential privilege and the ruling that came down from the Supreme Court. But I thought his angle there, Buck, of Obama actually being defrauded in some way by his intelligence agents. The challenge, though, and I want to get your perspective on it, is I think again, people think that there's one opinion that comes out of the intelligence agencies. There's like 100 and there's tons.

[Sean Davis]

I appreciated Sean's outside the box thinking on that one. But I mean, remember a week ago was the discussion was will Obama face charges based on what DNI Gabbard was saying? So I don't think that exculpating Obama is the way this is going to go forward. I also don't think Obama's going to face charges, as we said at the time. And I think you're going to find out we were right. I don't think any of them are going to face charges and that's just the way it's going to be. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't know the information and shouldn't have access to the truth because at least then it can be a political question. There can be political consequences to keep these maniacs out of power going forward, but that may be the best we can hope for in this situation.

[J.R. Martinez]

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[Sean Davis]

Into Clay and Buck. We got a lot of calls, a lot of talkbacks, tons of stuff to dive into here momentarily. But Clay wanted to finish a thought or lay out something having to do with the intel community, the deep state and all that before. So if you're on hold, stay with us. We'll get to you momentarily and we'll get some of your talkbacks as well. But Clay, take it away. What'd you have?

[J.R. Martinez]

Well, I'm teeing it up for you because we talked a lot about this on the program Thursday, Friday, as the fallout of all the revelations of Tulsi Gabbard really were un. Unspooling. And I'm curious from your perspective, two things. One, I do think this idea that there is one opinion. I do think that you can hammer home that there are hundreds of people working and they're fighting over what the interpretation is. And I think there is the idea out there that the intelligence agency has one opinion on an issue and I'd like for you to talk about how that actually looks inside of an agency. Second part of this, and I don't know the answer, I'm curious how you would analyze this. Let's acknowledge that we think that this whole thing was screwed up with Russia collusion. Has it improved inside of the agencies? Is there something that is going to be a positive of the mess that unspooled? So from your perspective on those two, how would you analyze that? Multiple different perspectives. And has anything changed going forward?

[Sean Davis]

There's so many perspectives that you generally can't even get agreement within an office on an issue, never mind across agencies. So that's always going to be just the reality. And remember these are assessments. It's analysis. The intel community is wrong a lot. Even when there is some unanimity on things, they, you know, people, they miss 911 obviously they missed the fall, the Berlin Wall, they missed the reality of the Afghan. Well, there's a, there's a whole bunch of things you can just point to plenty of intelligence failures because really it's, it's analysis about what's going to happen.

[J.R. Martinez]

Right.

[Sean Davis]

You're really talking about predicting the future. The intelligence community doesn't put it forward that way but we think that this is what's going on and this is what's next is a lot of. They sometimes call it opportunity analysis or they're just trying to try to tell you what's going to happen. And no one's good. No one can predict the future really. As I always say, occasionally someone can, but no one can with any consistency. So that's on that. And then, so that was the first part of it, the multi. And then you're asking about is it going to get better, is it going to change. There's the accountability piece for people that were inside who I think now at least have gotten a public there. There's this sort of public retribution against their reputations, Brandon Clapper and others. But you have to change the culture of these places. And that's a long term, that's a long term thing. The intelligence agencies post 911 got a lot of people who were, who were meat eaters so to speak, who wanted to go get bin Laden. And a lot of them left. You know, there's a lot of guys and gals who went in there to do the mission. And I'm not speaking about myself here but I certainly know plenty of people that are in this, in this boat and the bureaucracy took over and in the Obama years, they just couldn't handle it anymore. So that's what I see with that. And now let us, let us dive into some of these calls and we've got Charles in Northampton, Pennsylvania. What's going on?

[Clay Travis]

CHARLES yes. Well, I was just thinking maybe we should look at, rather than putting people in jail, that we should look for recovery of expenses for, you know, court costs, maybe slander, libel, loss of wages, emotional distress, you know, punitive damages, that kind of stuff towards and hit Obama and the Clintons and Comey Clapper Brennan where it hurts, which would be the money that they have in the bank that they've accumulated over the last however many years.

[Sean Davis]

CHARLES I'm not really seeing it. I mean, in the case of the Obamas, they're worth over $100 million. I mean, they could hire lawyers for the next century and it wouldn't really affect them very much. So I don't think. And also they would have Obama would have immunity in office as he was president. You look at the others, you're talking about bringing civil suits. Bringing a civil suit is very expensive for the person bringing it. Right. So unless you're saying you want the federal government to sue them on what I'm not really clear on how this on how this would go. Clay, do you have a better picture of this?

[J.R. Martinez]

The only thing thanks for the call. The only thing I can think is that he's saying he wants Trump to sue and try to hold these individuals responsible. Here's the challenge. First of all, most civil suit basis for lawsuits, the statute of limitations has expired. So I don't know in front of me right now, usually libel, defamation, slander, there's usually around a two year and individual states can differ, but usually around a two year.

[Sean Davis]

I also don't think you could hit that hurdle. When you're talking about a president, a public figure, you have to prove actual malice. You have to prove all the I mean, this is so the answer is no. I don't think you're going to be able to get some kind of civil judgment that destroys these people.

[J.R. Martinez]

That worked in these people ask all the time, can you sue? The answer is yes, you can sue for anything. The better question is can you sue and have any likelihood of success that is significant in nature for this, the answer, I think, is no. So and for people out there who are confused, he was asking a question, I think, about civil lawsuits as opposed to criminal culpability the civil standard is lower. And look, I mean, to your point, Buck, we've talked about this before. Sometimes the process can be the punishment. So yes, there are legal fees associated with this. Everything else, I just, I don't find that to be a very likely or significantly likelihood of success on that angle.

[Sean Davis]

Tim in North Indiana, what's going on, Tim?

[Clay Travis]

Hey fellows, great job, by the way. I had two things I wanted to bring up and then I'll hang up and you guys can discuss it. There's one, Is the RICO statute, is that something that could be applied to these 51 treasonous intelligence agents who signed the fraudulent Crossfire Hurricane affidavits? That's one. Two, if there is evidence, hard evidence that Obama was involved in that whole debacle after January 20, 2017, when he's no longer in the White House, he doesn't no longer have presidential immunity. Could he be, you know, held, held to account on actions he performed after his term of office?

[Sean Davis]

Tim, thank you for that, for the question on the 51 intelligence officials. They, they have a very straightforward defense which is going to be very unsatisfying for everybody to hear, which is I was so dumb, I believed it. And this is the problem, right? You can't prove that there was a. Unless they were, unless they were writing down, I'm lying about these. You know, you have to be able to prove that they knew what they were saying was not true. And it's very easy for people to say, no, I'm dumb, I believed it and that's it. So I think it's very hard. And rico, as we saw with Diddy, RICO you want to use against mobsters and cartels and very limited cases because once you start talking about racketeering and your corrupt, corrupt influence, it's, you know, you don't, I know they were going to try this against Trump in Atlanta and that was a, that was a preposterous case. Okay. Yeah, they couldn't even get that to first base. They couldn't even get that thing. So, so using rico, I think a lot of people like the RICO thing because they saw it in the, in the Batman, Batman Begins.

[J.R. Martinez]

Well, it sounds cool. When you say rico, you sound like you're super. Look, I actually think he was asking an interesting question on the back end, which is something that the Supreme Court may have to apply the fact pattern of their prior ruling, the 6, 3 decision on presidential power. I think you just mentioned that Atlanta, Georgia case. I think, for instance, the Supreme Court really hasn't addressed this I don't think you can bring state charges against a president. I think that that would be the president has federal powers. I don't think you can bring state charges like they tried to do Fanny Willis in Georgia. That has not gotten all the way to the Supreme Court is my understanding. Someone out there can correct me if I'm wrong. I think the Supreme Court only analyzed federal charges. Those that were brought against Trump in Florida, those that were brought against Trump in D.C. they didn't go into the New York state charges. And again, that was a very specific business related charge. The question he's asking is how far does presidential privilege extend into the future? Right. So let's say that Obama is protected until January 20, 2017 or whatever the date was when Trump came into office. And then he undergoes and continues actions. And I think it gets, it's, it's.

[Sean Davis]

Legally an interesting theoretical, but there's no, you're not going to find some post Obama presidency smoking gun of him in Russia collusion that would still be admissible that way. I mean, this is, we're getting way down the rabbit hole here.

[J.R. Martinez]

They're asking questions which are intelligent questions and I think it actually becomes really interesting. Buck, when you were out, I talked about this. One of the challenges of all these cases, and this is me being a legal nerd, is if the president has protection, which the Supreme Court has said to do his job. I don't understand how you prosecute people underneath the president. If the president has protection to do it and he authorizes someone underneath him to do it, it seems really unfair to me to charge an underling who is responding to a president's act. In other words, I think the presidential immunity ruling is actually not only going to protect the president. I think it is going to go to secondary and maybe even tertiary figures. There you go. Using it very appropriately. If you remember yesterday's call, I think it is going to be a blanket in many ways of protection that extends from the president and basically descends downwards. I think all this is a challenge, what Buck and I are trying to do.

[Sean Davis]

None of them are going to prison. Ok? This is, I'm just, none of them are going to prison and I don't even think they're going to get charged. And I'm just telling you this because I don't want anyone to. You get your hopes up, but there's going to be more accountability, you know, and if I'm wrong, of course I'll come out and say, wow, they actually, I'm sorry, I don't I don't see it happening. And I remember, I've been through this. I've been through this all the Benghazi hearings, you know, Trey Gowdy, you know, shouting, pounding the table and everything else. The whole time I was saying, no one's going to get in trouble for this. No one's going to get in trouble telling you. So I don't think this is going to be something that ends the way that a lot of people are hoping. Gary, in Burlington, Missouri. Burlington Junction, Missouri. What's going on, Gary? Yeah, I was just wanting to talk.

[Clay Travis]

A little bit about that. Clay can answered my question there about this blanket. Blanket pardon or whatever. Not pardon, but you know what I mean.

[Sean Davis]

Community.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[J.R. Martinez]

And I don't know why in the.

[Clay Travis]

World, after the Democrats did what they did to Trump, how come the shoe don't fit the other side?

[Sean Davis]

Well, again, the problem you run against. Thank you for calling in, Gary. The problem you run against here over and over again is they, even though we know that for a whole bunch of reasons, they didn't really believe the things that they were pretending to believe and they abused the system. Their fallback is always going to. This is the same thing with Comey, same thing with Brennan, same thing with the 51 intelligence officials. All this stuff, they'll just say, okay, I was wrong. I thought I was defending the country and I was wrong. That's not a crime. Now, we can all say bull crap, we know you know you were lying. But proving that and fitting it into a statutory crime is the challenge here. Those are different things.

[J.R. Martinez]

And I, I appreciate the call. I don't. I think people, every crime, by and large, there are some strict liability crimes. Every crime requires an act, and then they call it an actus rea, and then a mens rea. Mens rea requires intent. And what Buck is getting at is in order to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, you have to be able to prove that they knew it was a lie and that they intended to propagate a lie. I think what Buck is hitting on is the defense is going to be very strongly rooted in, hey, we thought this was true. And that's why I was asking him to explain, because I do think this matters. There might be a thousand different opinions about what Vladimir Putin's health is right now inside of the CIA. There's all these analysts working all the time, and they are trying to look at whatever evidence we have out there, and they're trying to say, hey, we think he's 100% healthy. He's healthy as a horse. He's going to live another 20 years and his reign is going to continue. Somebody else might say, hey, I think there's evidence that he's been treated for some sort of serious health related condition and his power is more tenuous than we think. Somebody's going to be right, somebody's going to be wrong, but every spectrum of analysis is going to be covered inside of there. And I think, and I was of this opinion prior to understanding, doing the show frankly and spending a little bit of time, I kind of had the sense, Buck, that the larger world, like there was one interpretation I'm seeing now, like every interpretation under the sun basically is being written at the CIA every day.

[Sean Davis]

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[J.R. Martinez]

Clay Travis at Buck Sexton Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Buck Sexton]

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[J.R. Martinez]

I'm J.R. martinez and on the Medal of Honor podcast we tell stories of.

[Clay Travis]

The service members who went beyond the call of duty and lived to tell the tale. Like Bud Day, who endured almost six years at the infamous Hanoi Hilton prison in the Vietnam War. I just said to myself, I come as far to surrender to these bastards. So I took off running.

[J.R. Martinez]

Or Alvin York, the most famous soldier of World War I.

[Clay Travis]

It's not your creed or your high are the color of your eyes that makes an American. It's our freedom and equality over the Constitution and our Bill of Rights that makes an American an almighty fighter. These are more than battlefield stories.

[J.R. Martinez]

They're about the people who showed extraordinary courage when it mattered most. Listen to Medal of Honor on the.

[Clay Travis]

Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[J.R. Martinez]

Welcome back in Clay Travis Buck Sexton Show. A lot of great talkbacks. You can always go talk back. Also on the iHeartRadio app we want you subscribe to the Clay and Buck YouTube page. I keep talking about how YouTube audience has just exploded. More people watch videos of radio shows now than actually listen to radio shows on podcasts. We are over 95,000 of you. I've been saying the target is a hundred k. That is a respectable number for us to hit on YouTube. See if you can drive us over that number today. Go search out Clay Travis, Buck Sexton. I'm asking all of you. Go subscribe. You'll see a lot of clips sooner rather than later we hope to have all three hours of the program up. We love the 555am FM radio stations in all 50 states where many of you are listening right now. And but we want to be everywhere wherever the viewer and or listener may be. And so please go subscribe to the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton show. Pam A.A. let's listen to Pam. She's got great instincts as a listener.

[Clay Travis]

Hey Clay, I just wanted to say.

[Sean Davis]

That I had known Buck. I listened to him for many years dating back to the Blaze, but I.

[Clay Travis]

Didn'T know you at all. And I have grown to absolutely just.

[Sean Davis]

Love you to pieces. For real. And whoever decided to pair you guys, brilliant decision.

[Clay Travis]

So just wanted to to throw that at you.

[J.R. Martinez]

Our lovely boss, Julie Talbot, who I had dinner with last night, put us together and thank you for that Pam from Alaska. I think you have incredible taste. When we come back, Buck, that's a.

[Sean Davis]

That'S a perfect talk back. Yeah, it is sucked the landing.

[J.R. Martinez]

10 out of 10 Democrats have hit a 35 year low in popularity. What's next? Wall Street Journal poll. We will discuss all that final hour coming up.

[Sean Davis]

This is an I heart podcast.