Hour 2 - What H-1B Visas Are Supposed To Be

Summary

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Hour 2 - What H-1B Visas Are Supposed To Be
Date: November 13, 2025
Duration: ~43 minutes

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Overview

In this episode, Clay Travis and Buck Sexton dive into the complexities of the H-1B visa program, examining its intended purpose versus its real-world application. The discussion is rooted in recent political turmoil, the effect of foreign labor on American wages and industry, and the looming transformation brought by AI and technology. Joined by best-selling author and commentator Bill O’Reilly, the hosts analyze the political fallout from the government shutdown, ponder Democratic Party dynamics, and dedicate a significant portion of the episode to personal and listener experiences with H-1B visas in the American workforce.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Government Shutdown: Political Fallout and Strategy

Guest: Bill O’Reilly

• Democrats’ Miscalculation: O’Reilly argues that Democrats intended the government shutdown as a strategic stand, expecting Republicans, especially Trump, to oppose increased spending—leading inevitably to a standoff.
  • “The Democratic Party was getting beaten so badly by President Trump that it had to make a stand somewhere, sometime.” —Bill O’Reilly [02:29]
• Zero Gains for Democrats: The shutdown hurt millions and ultimately achieved nothing for Democrats, who lost political leverage.
  • “So 43 days, millions of Americans hurt for nothing. The Democrats got nothing.” —Bill O’Reilly [04:02]
• Media Distraction: The Epstein story was raised as a media tactic to divert attention from the shutdown embarrassment.
  • “The Democrats threw this Epstein stuff out to deflect from the embarrassment of losing the shutdown.” —Bill O’Reilly [05:28]
• Reform Suggestions: O’Reilly recommends passing a law that allows only one spending adjustment per fiscal year to prevent shutdowns as a political tool.

2. Democratic Party Leadership and 2028 Election Speculation

• Newsom’s Viability: O’Reilly contends Gavin Newsom is unelectable at the national level due to a “disastrous” California record, corruption, and mass exodus from the state.
  • “When you lose a million citizens … you got something wrong with your state.” —Bill O’Reilly [08:28]
• Alternative Candidates: He puts forth Wes Moore (MD) as a stronger, less baggage-laden contender.
• Steak Dinner Bet: Clay and Buck wager a steak dinner with O’Reilly that Newsom will become the 2028 Democratic nominee.
  • “Buck and I say right now Gavin Newsom will be the nominee in 28. Are you willing to put a stake on the line?” —Clay Travis [09:56]

3. Rapid Societal Change and the Threat of AI Disinformation

• AI’s Distorting Effects: O’Reilly expresses grave concern over how AI-generated media will make it impossible to discern truth, particularly on social media.
  • “You’re going to have fake videos 24/7… there is no regulation about it. How about that for a frightening scenario?” —Bill O’Reilly [12:11]
• Legal Conundrums: The difficulty of pursuing defamation when AI fakes make malice tough to prove; calls for new, stricter laws on defamation and libel to contend with new tech realities.
  • "Congress has to pass new laws—new defamation, libel and slander laws. And they have to pass them pretty quickly…” —Bill O’Reilly [15:41]
• Future of Evidence: Anything can now be dismissed or believed as “AI”; real and fake are indistinguishable.
  • “The number one response is going to be ‘It’s AI.’ … None of us are going to have any idea what is real and what is fake.” —Buck Sexton [15:17]

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In-Depth Section: H-1B Visas – Intended Purpose vs. Reality

[22:27 onward]

Setting the Stage

• Clarifying Trump’s Comments: Clay explains that Trump’s assertion about lacking American talent was context-specific—there are skills (e.g., semiconductors, shipbuilding) that necessitate foreign expertise.
  • “He didn’t mean that in the broadest sense. He meant that for specific things, which is why we have an H-1B program.” —Clay Travis [22:27]
• H-1B’s Original Intent: The program should be limited to true “talent gaps”, not to undercut American employees with lower-wage equivalents.
  • “That’s what the H-1B program is supposed to be…” —Clay Travis [24:32]
  • “Not only pay them less, basically have them handcuffed because their ability to stay in the country is entirely reliant on them being productive workers for you.” —Buck Sexton [24:46]
  • “This is why people start to say it’s … a modern indentured servitude.” —Clay Travis [24:55]

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Caller Perspectives and Real-World Impact

A. Geralyn (Southern California, Computer Programmer)
[25:32]

• Wage Suppression Observed: Worked with H-1B coworkers from India, believes they accepted lower pay in return for U.S. residency.
  • “They were very good at their job, but not necessarily better than the rest of us…” [26:27]
• American Alternatives: Strongly feels Americans could have filled these roles had companies offered competitive pay.
  • “I think they could have, and I think they would have had to pay them more.” [26:39]

B. Jim (North Carolina, Business Owner/Manager)
[27:19]

• H-1B as Productivity Lever: Hired H-1Bs solely for superior productivity.
  • “We hired them for one specific purpose and that was because they were more productive than their equivalent American counterparts.” [27:19]
• Admits Abuse in IT: Acknowledges program is abused in tech sectors.
• Merit-Based Immigration: Suggests H-1B is a strong foundation for merit immigration, as many visa holders become valuable citizens.

C. David (Raleigh, Engineering Manager, 15 years)
[29:07]

• Market Flooding: Too many engineers and wage suppression.
  • “We’re flooding the market with too many engineers and it’s clearly disrupting the supply chain of engineers…” [29:07]
• Companies Moving Jobs Offshore: Warns high wage requirements may just accelerate offshoring.
  • “...the companies are just going to offshore these jobs.” [29:57]

D. Jeff (New Orleans, Former Engineer Forced Out)
[36:35]

• Displaced by H-1Bs: Lost his engineering job due to being underbid by H-1B workers.
  • “I used to be an engineer and got forced out of that career field because of the H1B visas.” [36:39]
• Unrealistic Salary Expectations for Foreign Workers: Recalls a coworker who negotiated salary based on Mumbai living costs, was then trapped in a contract after learning of U.S. expenses.
  • “He realized he’s been screwed. And he calls the home office asking for a pay raise. After they stopped laughing at him, they said, ‘you’ve got two choices...’” [37:43]

E. Jay (Florida, Calls Out Management Incentives)
[40:21]

• Management vs. Worker Perspective: Notes that H-1B proponents are typically managers benefiting from cost savings, not engineers who lose jobs or face downward wage pressure.
  • “The people that have been speaking in favor of the H1Bs … are managing higher up in the companies whose bonuses depend on how little their department spends…” [40:25]
• Defense Sector Issues: Even American defense contractors feel wage and role erosion due to H-1B and offshoring pressure.
  • “Why should we use you when we can hire five engineers for your salary from India or China?” [41:22]

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Hosts’ Reflections and Key Analogies

• Priority for Americans: Emphasize the program should only fill real gaps; Americans should be prioritized unless there’s a “Shohei Ohtani/exceptional talent” scenario.

  • “There is nobody else who can do this. And I’m not hearing a lot of ‘there’s nobody else who can do this.’” —Clay Travis [39:20]
  • “Americans should get priority. I don’t think it should be a controversial thing.” —Clay Travis [38:16]

• NBA Analogy: If you’re among the top in the world (like NBA foreign players), sure—but don’t use H-1B for average talent at lower pay.

• Long-term Incentives and Industry Shifts: Higher starting salaries in consulting/investment banking have lured top minds away from engineering, compounded by consistent wage undercutting.

  • “The incentives that have been set up because people were thinking, oh well, coding almost became … back office…” —Buck Sexton [31:01]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Whenever the American public gets angry, they vote against the incumbents. That’s all the way back to John Adams.” —Bill O’Reilly [02:29]
• “You can’t be changing the filibuster rules every two years.” —Bill O’Reilly [05:41]
• “When you use a million citizens, that's… How many have left California under Newsom? 1 million. Most of whom were affluent, paid big taxes. 1 million. You got something wrong with your state.” —Bill O’Reilly [08:28]
• “You’re going to have fake videos 24/7…” —Bill O’Reilly (on AI) [12:11]
• “This is why people start to say it’s a little bit like a modern indentured servitude.” —Clay Travis (on H-1B status for workers) [24:55]
• Caller Geralyn: “My Indian coworkers were happy to accept less money because that meant they got to stay in America… All the points you were just making are exactly correct.” [26:39]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 02:03–07:09 | Bill O’Reilly on government shutdown, Democratic Party strategy | | 07:09–10:38 | 2028 Democratic nominees: Newsom, Kamala, field bet | | 10:49–13:55 | The implications and risks of AI in politics and society | | 15:14–16:23 | Laws and legal standards in AI/defamation world | | 22:27–25:00 | Setting up the H-1B debate; Trump’s intent and H-1B scope | | 25:32–26:52 | Caller: Geralyn – American programmers vs. H-1Bs | | 27:19–28:53 | Caller: Jim – H-1B productivity, business competitiveness | | 29:07–29:59 | Caller: David – Wage depression, offshoring trends | | 36:35–38:16 | Caller: Jeff – Engineer replaced, wage pressure | | 40:21–41:54 | Caller: Jay – Management incentives, defense sector concerns | | 39:20–41:22 | Closing analogies, further host reflections on American workforce priority |

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Tone and Style

Consistent with the hosts’ typical approach, the episode is a lively back-and-forth mixing hard-edged political analysis with irreverent quips and personal anecdotes. Bill O’Reilly provides a blend of historical context and blunt assessment, while Clay and Buck guide the conversation to keep it listener-focused and grounded in practical realities.

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Summary – Key Takeaways

• The H-1B visa program is, in theory, intended to fill essential skill shortages in the U.S. workforce—but listeners and hosts highlight its frequent usage as a wage suppression tool, leading to displacement and underpayment of American workers.
• There’s tension between merit-based immigration ideals and the lived experience of American engineers and programmers, many of whom feel unfairly replaced or priced out of their professions.
• New threats from AI-generated media blur the line between reality and fiction, pushing for urgent legal reform on information integrity and defamation laws.
• Political maneuvers around shutdowns and Democratic leadership suggest deep divides and volatility heading into future elections.

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For listeners seeking an informed, layered debate on H-1B visas and the shifting workforce, this episode delivers a range of perspectives—with practical, legal, and cultural angles well covered, and real-world experiences sharing the spotlight.

Transcript

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[Clay Travis]

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[Buck Sexton]

Actually get heard in the car, at.

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[Buck Sexton]

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[Buck Sexton]

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[Clay Travis]

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[Buck Sexton]

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[Clay Travis]

Call 844-844-IHEART or go to iheartadvert. That's 844-844-iheart or iheartadvertising.com all right, second hour of play and Buck kicks off right now. We've got Bill O'Reilly with us, mega best selling author commentator. You all know where to go get his stuff. Bill O'Reilly.com latest book, Confronting Evil, Assessing the worst of the worst. I'm sure, Bill, there's a whole chapter on people who chew with their mouths open the worst of the worst. Thank you so much for being here with us. Appreciate that.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Listen, guys, I always like talking to you. Thanks for having me in.

[Clay Travis]

Let's get into the shutdown right away, shall we? What the heck was this all about? I mean, give us, give us your sense as to what the Democrats think they got out of this and what they really got out of this and how they're going to go forward now that a lot of people, I think, saw this not the way that they had intended.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Well, I won a partial victory last week when New Jersey went Democrat in the gubernatorial race when it was supposed to be considered very tight, it was not. People are angry about the government shutdown. Whenever the American public gets angry, they vote against the incumbents. That's all the way back to John Adams. And it's always been that way. But the genesis of this is that the Democratic Party was getting beaten so badly by President Trump that it had to make a stand somewhere, sometime. And the people who run the party, which are far left, progressive consultants, not senators or congresspeople, the party is being run. There's an article in the Wall Street Journal editorial page, said a very good article about money people calling the shots in the Democratic Party. Well, they decided, look, the Republicans weakness is they don't have a health care plan to bring down costs. So we all insist that the temporary Obama chair spending, which rose and was supposed to come back down after the pandemic subsided, be made permanent. And the Democrats who fostered that knew that Trump and the Republicans would never agree never to more spending in a chaotic program. So they knew that the government was going to shut down. Now, they thought that they might be able to wait it out. But when eight Democrats defected, it was over. So 43 days, millions of Americans hurt for nothing. The Democrats got nothing.

[Buck Sexton]

Bill, it seems quite clear that Democrats recognize that they misplayed this, that they have created a mess for themselves. And so they decided, hey, the government's opening back up. Let's distract everybody. Let's throw out this Epstein story all over again. You've known and, and Buck and I talked about that yesterday and said, hey, this is a clear attempt to try to avoid attention being placed upon their in, you know, their incompetence. What is the game plan here as we look ahead to 2026, aren't we. Shouldn't we be concerned that they're just going to shut down the government again and again? That seems to me to be the most likely outcome because they don't really have any game plan, but they just want to be reflexively anti Trump. And if that's true, what would be a remedy? Do you support adjusting the filibuster here to stop the government from being able to be shut down until 60 senators, which requires, you know, eight, seven, eight Democrats actually come to their senses.

[Bill O'Reilly]

There's a lot of questions in there, Clay. Okay, so number one is obvious the Democrats threw this Epstein stuff out to deflect from the embarrassment of losing the shutdown. Yes, Everybody with an IQ over 50 knows that. Okay, number two, no, I wouldn't mess around with the filibuster at all, because then you're going to create a monster that is going to come back and do some serious damage. You can't be changing the filibuster rules every two years. Number three, the way to do this is for a new law and the Republicans have enough votes in both the House and Senate to pass it. It says you get one shot at an adjustment of spending during a fiscal year, one. So we have a January date coming up where this might happen all over again. But I suspect it won't because Democrats now are becoming the party of mean, the mean party. And while a lot of Americans aren't smart enough to understand what's going on and don't really care, most do. And so if the Democrats try the same stunt in January, they're going to be a lot of anger. And then you're only talking about nine months until the midterms. So the Democrats got to be very careful here. But the way to stop it now is to pass a new law. You get one shot on a continuing funding basis of fiscal year.

[Clay Travis]

Makes sense. I mean, they've got to figure out something to streamline this. We're Talking to Bill O'Reilly, confronting evil, his latest massive bestseller. Make sure you go out and get a copy of it. So, Bill, we watched, or at least I watched, I think Clay saw some of the clips you on, on Bill Maher. Well done, by the way. That's, that's always a, it's a good show when they have somebody who doesn't just agree with all the communist lunacy out in California. So it was good that you were there. One thing, though, where Clay and I both wanted, we wanted to press you on this one a little bit. You said something about how you don't think Gavin Newsom has a shot at the national level for the Democrats. Expand upon this one, because we were both, we were both thinking that that's, look, I'll just say it. We both have said we think it's going to be him at the top of the ticket, AOC at the bottom. It sounds like you disagree. Tell us why.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Because his record is so abysmal in California, it'd be very easy for the Republicans just take him apart and, you know, the spending irresponsibility. And just yesterday, his chief of staff was indicted on corruption. I mean, you start to look at this guy Newsom, you're going to find a thousand things that are going to weigh him down. And I'm not sure the Democratic Party wants to go with a candidate who's going to be on the defensive every single day. So I would say that a guy like Wes Moore, who's not as defined, he's the governor of Maryland and he's a patriot, you know, a military guy, has done a decent job trying to combat crime in Baltimore. I'd say he had a much better chance because he doesn't have that baggage. Now. Newsom is a good campaigner. He's using Trump tactics. He's, you know, running on a populist thing. But when you use a million citizens, that's. How many have left California under Newsom? 1 million. Most of whom were affluent, paid big taxes. 1 million. You got something wrong with your state.

[Buck Sexton]

All right. Well, we agree that he's done an awful job. Unfortunately. I think Democrats don't care about results. And he. He's the most strident in his attention gathering.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Kamala Harris, though.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah.

[Bill O'Reilly]

They care about winning the next election, the presidential. So if you're going to put up a Kamala Harris, all right, and she can't articulate anything, which is what the case was, has not one solution to any problem. Nothing you can lose. Should we do a guy from California whose record is disastrous. You're going to lose.

[Buck Sexton]

Should we do a steak bet here? I don't think the three of us have gone out to dinner together. It's a little bit unfair because, you know, Buck and I get to pay half and half. But we think that Newsom will be the nominee. You do not. We're giving you the field, which actually is a great deal for you. Do we have a handshake bet here? Buck and I say right now Gavin Newsom will be the nominee in 28. Are you willing to put a stake on the line? Would actually be two stakes for you over this, over this situation.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Sure. But not because I'm that confident I'll win, because it's going to be a totally different country in three years. Going to be a totally different country in one year.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah.

[Bill O'Reilly]

That's why the election last week. Is it going to have any direct bearing on the midterms next year? The country is changing with lightning. Speed. Lightning.

[Buck Sexton]

How concerned are you about that, by the way? Because Buck and I, I think one of the big stories that is still not getting enough attention is AI and how quickly it's going to change everything in this country. Buck and I have been talking about it a lot on this program. Are you of the opinion that AI is going to be transformative in many ways, in terms of jobs, in terms of.

[Clay Travis]

And disruptive with that.

[Buck Sexton]

Yes.

[Bill O'Reilly]

The approach, because it's not quite here yet, is going to alter the media above all else. Because on social media, where you can't track these people down, can't hold them accountable in court of law, you're going to have fake videos. 24. 7. Yeah, 24 7. There is a congresswoman who accused Trump yesterday. Let me get her name. I got my notes because I'm going to do it. On the no Spin news tonight on billoriley.com she accused, and I just read it, a quote, Melanie Stansberry from New Mexico. Okay. She says, I'd like to say to the American people, believe your eyes. We have all seen photographs of Donald Trump with underage girls sitting on his lap. That's a quote.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah.

[Bill O'Reilly]

There are no photographs of Donald Trump with any girl on his lap. There was an AI photograph that was put out.

[Buck Sexton]

Yep.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Now this congressperson from New Mexico is lying to the American people. Now, I don't know whether she is just stupid or venal or what, based upon some AI fake image that she saw. So multiply that by 10,000, because that's what's going to happen. And there's no regulation about it. How about that for a frightening scenario?

[Clay Travis]

No, it's, and also, how do you hold someone legally responsible, let's say, for defamation? Bill, if they say, well, I saw this news site, shared this photo, and it looked real, because especially for a public figure, as you know, the standard has to be malice, has to be false. Tough to prove malice if someone's actually looking at a photo that looks like a real photo. Right. I mean, I just think it complicates matters tremendously.

[Bill O'Reilly]

It makes it harder. But I think if Trump wanted to sue Stansberry, he would win because her statements about Trump are malicious. So you can bring in a whole bunch of other stuff, and it's the responsibility of any person trafficking in the public arena to make sure what they're saying is accurate.

[Clay Travis]

Well, especially something like that. Right.

[Buck Sexton]

I mean, no doubt.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah. Insinuating, you know, some kind of sexual, you know, violation, you know, violation of law. Well, of course. Right. But you're gonna see a lot more of this.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Okay. An AI image may exist. That's not a picture. If I were Trump, I'd go after her, and if somebody does to me, I'll go after them.

[Buck Sexton]

It's gonna happen to everybody. Bill, I, I, I think you're hitting on something that's so incredibly important because it's going to become virtually impossible to distinguish between photos, videos, what is real and fake. And honestly, yeah, people are going to believe whatever they want to believe. So there is going to be no ability to really kind of rein this in.

[Clay Travis]

This is kind of a silly one, Bill. But, you know, there was that photo after the Louvre heist. You know, this is much less serious than the Trump thing. But after the Louvre heist, there was the photo of the detective who looked like he was, you know, dressing up as like a French detective from, you know, like the 1950s. And everyone was like, is it AI? Is it not AI? It was actually a real photo apparently. But the guy had nothing to do with the cops. And. But by the time that photo had made it around everywhere, nobody knew what was reality. Everyone thought this guy was the lead detective on the Louvre case.

[Bill O'Reilly]

You know, even gets worse than that. There was a picture of me, Waters, Beck and Carlson at the White House. But that was a real picture.

[Buck Sexton]

By the way.

[Bill O'Reilly]

I'm tempted to say it was AI.

[Buck Sexton]

No, this is also going to be funny, Bill. The things that are actually real. Do you know what the number one response is going to be? It's AI. Everybody's going to say that we're not going to have any idea what is real and what is fake. Because if something's out there that you don't like, you're just gonna be like, ah, that's totally made up. That's AI. And if it's really fake, you're going to say, wait, that's fake. And none of us are going to have any idea what's real and fake.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Well, that's why Congress has to pass new laws, new defamation, libel and slander laws. And they have to pass them pretty quickly to make it easier for people to sue.

[Clay Travis]

But that's my point, Bill, is people are gonna. People are gonna hide behind a bad faith. Oh, I was acting in good faith. Standard. Unless we change these laws because of AI, they're gonna say, I'm just going on what was a re. You know, so you're right, we gotta change this. It's gonna be a huge problem.

[Buck Sexton]

But and to your point, Buck, it's gonna that are in foreign countries that are hard to be able to track down because they're going to be a lot of these sourcing, right? And then it's going to go everywhere.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill O'Reilly]

They'll outsource them to the South Asian people, but we should have the British system anyway. And the burden of defamation should be lowered here because the charlatans are running wild. And it's going to. It's going to make it even harder for decent people not to get framed and extorted. And that's why Congress got to get involved.

[Buck Sexton]

Look, I think you're thanks for the time, Bill. And we encourage everybody to go check out Bill's newest book. I think the Times v. Sullivan standard, and I've said this for a long time, is going to have to be read, readdressed. That's a 1960s, early 60s civil rights era precedent. It doesn't really play in the modern era very effectively. Bill, we appreciate the time and we'll get you on again soon.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Thanks for having me in, guys.

[Clay Travis]

Anytime.

[Buck Sexton]

That's Bill O'Reilly. Check him out. Bill O'Reilly.com he's got a lot of great stuff there, in addition to one of the bestselling nonfiction book series of all time. When we first met up with the team at the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, they were understandably focused on helping tens of thousands of Israeli citizens displaced and affected by the war. But for many years before then, even today, they're continuing to help members of the Jewish faith no matter where they are in the world. That includes Jewish community members in our nation as well that have been affected by anti Semitic acts. For the ifcj, this is an important effort. The IFCJ is on the front lines providing real help where it's needed most, giving food and shelter to Jewish families that feel under threat. I have seen this for myself and I have helped to do some of the charity work that they have done in Israel. I was over there about a year ago in December. Your gift of 45 will help support their life saving work by helping provide food, shelter, much more support the ifs. Supporting the IFCJ is a spiritual stand too. Please call 888-488-IFCJ. That's 888-488-4325. You can also go online to IFCJ.org every dollar helps. Don't wait be the difference IFCJ.org stories.

[Clay Travis]

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[Buck Sexton]

Inspirational stories that unite us all each day. Spend time with Clay and Buck. Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Buck Sexton]

Welcome back in. We got a quick turn here, but we have a ton of you lined up right now who want to talk about this H1B issue from a variety of different perspectives. Stick with us. We will go to you when we come back at the top, bottom of the hour and and take your calls. We got Southern California, St. Paul, North Carolina, Florida, Raleigh, North Carolina. We got a bunch of different places everybody wants to weigh in. We will hit all of y', all, I promise, when we come back. But in the meantime, I want to tell you about the incredible work that I have seen Tunnel to Towers do. I was up in New York last week, last month helping to emcee their big event at the Liberty Golf Course where they raised millions of dollars, which is fantastic to see. But even better is every time I go to a Tunnel to Towers event, I'm fortunate because I get to meet some of the family members that have been helped by Frank Siller and his organization and just the incredible work that they do to help ensure that all of our first responders, that all of our military officials, that all of their families are taken care of. I donate. Buck donates. We would like you to join us in donating to support the bravest and Most selfless among US first responders military. Their families donate $11 a month to tunnel to [e-mail] that's t the number.

[Clay Travis]

2T.Org welcome back into Clay and Buck. All right, Something here real quick. I want to get back into the H1B discussion because we got all lines lit about this. We wanted to have Uncle Bill on to give us the general political rundown of what's happening right now. But we'll get back to H1B. The big conversation and I had mentioned this in the first hour, said, look what Trump said when he said we don't have the talent here. He didn't mean that. I know Trump. He didn't mean that in the broadest sense. He meant that for specific things, which is why we have an H1B program. There are times when we actually do need to bring in and by the way, they're very, you know, countries like South Korea, Taiwan, there are specific instances where there is a skill set. I brought up tsmc, one of the most valuable companies in the world. We cannot run that fab without Taiwanese assistance, even the one in Arizona. Like we need them. So that's where your H1B program is very now, I think that's a small fraction. But that's what Scott Besant, he went, this is cut 28. He said, look, what Trump was really saying is what Buck just said to you. Play it.

[Bill O'Reilly]

The president's point here is we again, we can't snap our fingers and say you're going to learn how to build ships overnight. We want to bring semiconductor industry back to the U.S. they're going to be big facilities in Arizona. So I think the president's vision here is to bring in overseas workers where.

[Buck Sexton]

These jobs who have skills, who have the skills, three, five, seven years to.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Train the US Workers, then they can go home.

[Buck Sexton]

The US Workers fully take over. So that's do you have, do you.

[Clay Travis]

Understand the concern that people have, hey, an American can have that job.

[Buck Sexton]

Why you give it to an American.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Can have that job. So specific skills, because we haven't built ships in the US for years, we haven't built semiconductors. So this idea of overseas partners coming in, teaching American workers, then returning home, that's a home run.

[Clay Travis]

It just has to be what he's talking about. It's so Funny, because. Okay, that makes sense.

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

Yeah.

[Clay Travis]

That's what the H1B program is supposed to be. It's not supposed to be low level coding where you get to pay someone, clay from India, 30% less than you'd pay an American that you could find to do the job.

[Buck Sexton]

Not only pay them less, basically have them handcuffed because their ability to stay in the country is entirely reliant on them being productive workers for you.

[Clay Travis]

This is why people start to say it's a little bit like a modern indentured servitude.

[Buck Sexton]

Exactly what it is.

[Clay Travis]

And then they say, well, then why were they willing to do it? Well, one, they make a lot money, more money here than they will in. In India, for example. And two, as I said, there's the whole incentive of, well, I get to bring my family here, I get to skip the overall immigration line, I get to then apply in America to try to stay with my. Get a green card. There's a whole thing here. All right, we got. So we got back and forth on this one. So we're going to try to move quickly through the various opinions here. Geralyn in Southern California, a computer programmer. What do you think, Geralyn?

[Caller (Geralyn/Jeff/Jim/Jay)]

Hey, nice to talk to you again, Clay.

[Bill O'Reilly]

And back.

[Caller (Geralyn/Jeff/Jim/Jay)]

I am a computer programmer, and you all just kind of covered the points that I made to producer Greg. I used to work for a company that was multinational and it was kind of a. It was past the initial startup phase, but it was a pretty young company and they were still trying to trade on their startup culture. And a lot of the programmers I worked with were H1B visa holders from India. And I think I couldn't prove it, but I'm pretty sure that they. And we never discussed it because that's tacky. In spite of what kids these days think I've noticed it's a trend among millennials and Generation Z to discuss your salary. Don't do that, kids. It's bad. Anyway, we never talked about it, but I'm pretty sure all of those programmers from India were making a lot less than the rest of us were. And they were very good at their job, but not necessarily better than the rest of us who were.

[Buck Sexton]

Sorry to cut you off, Jerry Lynn, but you feel like in your experience that they could have found American workers who could have done the jobs that these H1B workers were being hired to do?

[Caller (Geralyn/Jeff/Jim/Jay)]

Yes, I think they could have, and I think they would have had to pay them more. And I think that my Indian coworkers were happy to Accept less money because that meant they got to stay in America. I think all the points you were just making are exactly correct.

[Buck Sexton]

Thank you for the call. I mean, this is fantastic. By the way. I wanted you guys who had experience. I appreciate Geralyn. Let's go to Jim in North Carolina. You've run a business and you've had, you say dozens of H1B employees. First question for you. Could you not have found Americans able to do those jobs? Second question for you. What if anything, do you think should be changed about the policy or do you think it works well now?

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

Well, great to be with you, Clay and Buck. First, let me just say that the H1B program is abused in various places around the country, particularly in the IT arena. I will tell you that the dozens of H1Bs that I managed, we were, we hired them for one specific purpose and that was because they were more productive than their equivalent American counterparts. We. When you run a business, it's the bottom line that drives your business. You got to be productive. And if you've got foreign workers who are willing to work harder with more attention to detail than their counterparts in America, then you're just drawn to have to hire them and keep them employed. We always were on the search for hard working American workers in the IT arena, particularly in the data warehousing, business intelligence arena. But we just couldn't find the ones that could work at the same level, the same degree of attention to detail.

[Buck Sexton]

So your position is there was no fungible alternative for American workers. You legitimately believe you couldn't have run your business without being able to hire these individuals.

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

We couldn't work. We couldn't be as competitive as a business by hiring workers that were 50% less productive than their H1B counterparts.

[Buck Sexton]

Where did you go to get your workers? Mostly India.

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

Most of them were South Asia Indian. In fact, I still have maintained relationships.

[Bill O'Reilly]

With a lot of.

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

One other thing that's been missing in all of this. When you're looking at a merit based immigration program, there's no better kickstart for that than the H1B program because a good percentage of those do become American citizens over time and they add so much value to our employment sector.

[Buck Sexton]

Thank you for the call. David. In Raleigh, you say you have been an engineering manager. I think that's what that says for 15 years and worked with a lot of H1B employees. Your take?

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

Yeah, I believe that for the most part, Laura's right. We're flooding the market with too many engineers and it's clearly Disrupting the supply chain of engineers. If you look at when I came into the industry in the early 2000s, engineers aren't making that much more than adjusted for inflation, than we were back then. But I think the bigger issue, like when Lutnick came out and said, hey, it's going to be 100,000 per year per H1B, a lot of us were excited because that would fix the issue to a large extent. But what will happen is the companies are just going to offshore these jobs. We're already setting up design houses in India. Every big Fortune 500 company has a design house essentially under their umbrella in India right now, and they're growing those right now. And so we're watching these jobs just.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Go straight to India.

[Buck Sexton]

Thank you for the call.

[Clay Travis]

Well, you know, part of this is also the upstream, downstream reality of when you have the consistent and systematic undercutting of an American wage in a certain industry. From, let's be honest, in the case of India, the most populous country on earth, there are a lot of Indians, like 1.3 billion or something like that. And when you have this going on, it's going to create deficiencies in the American sector. Because, Clay, perfect example, when I got out of school, when you got out of school, everybody in the top of my class at Amherst, unless you wanted to go save America at the CIA, Everybody in the top of my class. There were two job tracks for you. Investment banking, management consulting. Both of those, by the way, you could argue, where's the value add long. You know, there's, there's a lot of more detailed discussions. You know, there's been whole series TV shows made about management consulting and like how it's, you know, yeah, lower your costs, raise your profits. Like, that's, that's brilliant.

[Buck Sexton]

That's one that's really being erased by AI because you can plug the large data sets in.

[Clay Travis]

But those were two areas where in your 20s, you know, you could come out and you could start making. And I'm talking about 20 years ago, mind you, 20 years ago, you could make 2, 300 grand in your 20s pretty pretty readily within a couple of years. I mean, I think the starting salary at the investment banks I got an offer from one at Citigroup was like 150 and then with bonus, it could be up to 100. And, you know, if it was a good year anyway, it's very variable. But the point is, you wanted to be an engineer. You're making like 70 or 80 grand now. I know a lot of you think, well, That's a great job. That's a lot of money. Sure. But if you had the grades to be a top engineering recruit, you also probably had the grades to go work at McKinsey and tell people how to run their companies that you've never run before and make a whole lot of money. So this is the. I'm just saying the incentives that have been set up because people were thinking, oh well, coding almost became. Or, you know, a lot of these computer skills that we're hiring H1BS for are back office. And as long as you're in a back office situation, you're never going to really be writing your own ticket and determining your own fate.

[Buck Sexton]

No doubt. We still got a bunch of calls. We'll get to some of those calls when we come back. I appreciate everybody reaching out and sharing what your perspectives on what is a challenging situation. We'll continue to break all that down going forward. But in the meantime, Buck, I think you got something for us here.

[Clay Travis]

I do indeed. My friends, Good Ranchers. I've got captain Flatley visiting down here. That's right, captain Flatley. He's captain of airlines or airline flying rather. And he likes a great steak just like I do and so does my wife. And we go to good ranchers for them. My friends, we are stocked for this holiday season thanks to Good ranchers. They deliver great tasting steaks, burgers, pork chops, bacon, even salmon. It arrives via overnight shipping, packed securely, ensuring freshness, freshness. It's like having a restaurant meal at home every night. Look, no matter how good a cookie you are, if you don't have high quality proteins, you're not going to be at that top tier of deliciousness at your kitchen table. Good Ranchers gives you exactly what you need, the raw materials for the best dinner. You're gonna have a great time with your family. And it's all really good, top quality, top tier stuff too. No antibiotics, no hormones. We're both subscribers, Clay and I. You should be too. You'll get $25 off every box delivered, free shipping and a free gift in every order for life. To shop America's best meat, visit goodranchers.com start your subscription today and if you order before December 1st and you're a first time subscriber, use my name Buck as your promo code. You'll get an additional $100 off your first three orders, plus free meat for life. That's code Buck for 100 off plus free meat for life. Goodranchers.com Code Buck, you ain't imagining it.

[Buck Sexton]

The world has gone insane. Reclaim your sanity with Clay and Buck. Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Buck Sexton]

Welcome back in Clay Travis Buck Sexton Show. We appreciate all of you hanging out with us as we are rolling through the Thursday edition of the program. Still have a ton of people who want to weigh in. This H1B idea debate I think is one that many people have strong takes on. And let's see Jeff in New Orleans. What you got for us?

[Caller (Geralyn/Jeff/Jim/Jay)]

Jeff I I used to be an.

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

Engineer and got forced out of that career field because of the H1B visas.

[Buck Sexton]

Because you were competing with foreign. Sorry. Because you you were forced out because there were people who would take lower salaries the job that you were doing.

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

Correct. And one case in particular, one of my co workers. When you're not in unions, there's no set pay rate, no pay grades, and so you just negotiate for whatever you want. Well, I had one particular co worker who had never been in the United States before and negotiated his salary based on what he thought his budget was going to be. He knew what a one bedroom apartment in Mumbai cost. He knew what the exchange rate was. He could do the math. And so he figured that he could get a one bedroom apartment in the middle of downtown Chicago for $450 a month and he negotiated his salary based on that. Then he gets the United States and he realized he's been screwed. And he calls the home office asking.

[Bill O'Reilly]

For a pay raise.

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

After they stopped laughing at him, they.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Said, you've got two choices.

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

You can either fulfill the contract as you originally signed it or you can get deported. That's the end of it. And I'm having a call go shape my own salary. Competing against this.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah, look, thanks for the call. This is what's not supposed to happen, Buck, but that many people feel is happening, which is American based workers are competing with H1B employees who are actually doing the same jobs.

[Clay Travis]

This is, this is where I think we need to inject also into the conversation. America and Americans first. I'm hearing a lot of on the more pro H1B side, oh, they work so hard or oh, they'll work for a little bit less pay or whatever it is. And to this I just want to say, yeah, but Americans should get priority. I don't think it should be a controversial thing. Someone should have to be clay so much better than their American counterpart for us to say, we're going to bring you from wherever you are on the other side of the world, you're not an American. We're going to put you in a chair and pay you a salary and give you a role that an American could do. It really should only be that an American. It's not possible. I keep hearing like, oh, they're a little more efficient or they take a little less pay or they. The whole program was set. It wasn't set up so that a company can have a little advantage over other companies. It was, there is nobody else who can do this. And I'm not hearing a lot of there's nobody else who can do this. I'm hearing. Well, I had some good experiences with.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah, well, a good analogy that you made earlier. And I think one of our callers made is if Shohei Ohtani, you know, is a such a unique talent in Major League Baseball. I don't know if he's qualifying. Some of you guys may know. I don't know if athletes qualify under H1B visas to be able to come in, but if you are one of the best in the world at what you do and otherwise you would not be able to come into the country. That's a great example. You mentioned the NBA. The NBA is a global game. The best basketball players in the world. There's only, whatever it is, 450 jobs that NBA players do if 75 of them are foreigners and they happen to be one of the best 450 people at something. But to your point, there's a lot of, yeah, basically this guy has a skill set that's very similar to the skill sets that exist in the United States. They are not one of the best, extraordinary talent people. And this is what Jay in Florida is saying. Jay, what you got for us?

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

Yeah, you there?

[Bill O'Reilly]

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[Caller (Geralyn/Jeff/Jim/Jay)]

Okay.

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

Yeah, I think if listening to the conversations here, I think you can notice that the people that have been speaking in favor of the H1B1s are people that are not doing the engineering. They're the ones that are managing higher up in the companies whose bonuses depend on how little their department spends on what their trying to accomplish. But I've got a. My son has a master's in electrical engineering. He's been working for a major defense contractor for about the last 10 years. And his job, which he really enjoys was to, you know, be given a project, design it, take it into the lab, test it, and, you know, produce the product and then go around and market it. But what has happened over the last few years is that basically he was told that why should we use you when we can hire five engineers for your salary from India or China?

[Clay Travis]

Yeah.

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

Now he's in a. He's a defense contractor. And supposedly the people that are, you know, these are classified jobs. They're not supposed to be worked on by foreigners. And the, what he has become now is they've taken him out of the lab and he's become like the face of the, the products where he's going around to other defense contractors that, you know, try to convince them to use our product. And he's talking with the American faces of those other defense contractors.

[Buck Sexton]

Thank you for the call. Sorry to cut you off. We're coming up on the end of the hour. So we have a hard out. I think the other interplay here, which this gentleman's Talking about is H1B requires you to come to the country. There's certainly still a lot of, of offshoring, which is what he was saying, like his son's job based on his salary can be replaced by Indians working overseas. And that is part of the interplay here, but a little bit of a different dynamic. We come back, couple of breaking news stories we want to hit you with.

[Clay Travis]

This is Jim.

[iHeartRadio Announcer]

Hello.

[Clay Travis]

Jim started advertising with iHeartRadio way back in April, and now I have customers out the door. And this is Sarah.

[Buck Sexton]

Hi.

[Clay Travis]

She started putting a portion of her marketing dollars in podcasting back in June.

[Caller/Guest (Engineer/Manager)]

Business is booming.

[Clay Travis]

That's why I'm working on a Saturday. Want to be like Jim and Sarah. It's easy. All you have to do is own or manage a business and reach out to iHeart. Get started today at 844-844-IHeart or iheartadvertising.com.

[iHeartRadio Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast.