Hour 2 - When Are The Charges Coming?

Summary

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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Hour 2 - When Are The Charges Coming?

Date: January 21, 2026 | Podcast: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

In this hour, Clay Travis and Buck Sexton dive deep into the burning question on many conservatives’ minds: "When are the charges coming?" They examine the legal and political fallout from the ongoing investigations and controversies involving high-profile Democrats in Minnesota, particularly Governor Tim Walz and Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey, against the backdrop of ICE activity and the much-discussed Minnesota daycare fraud case. The hosts discuss prediction markets, the weaponization of the legal system, and the broader implications of politically motivated prosecutions, using recent Trump indictments as a framework. The episode is marked by a blend of skepticism, sharp wit, and thoughtful debate, including analysis of prediction probabilities, legal hurdles, and political consequences.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "When Are the Charges Coming?" Dilemma

Timestamps: 04:14 – 06:55

• Bubbling Conservative Frustration:
  Clay observes that audiences are tired of empty outrage:

  “I think a lot of people now are saying, ‘When are charges going to come?’ because otherwise you’re just fulminating outrage. But it doesn’t lead to any tangible result.” – Clay Travis [05:25]

• Unlikely Prosecution Outlook:
  Both hosts agree it's extremely unlikely that high-profile Minnesota officials like Governor Tim Walz or Mayor Jacob Frey will face criminal charges related to the daycare fraud or anti-ICE protests.

  “No, yeah, they’re not going to prosecute either of them. ... The governor of Minnesota over this? No way. No way.” – Clay Travis [07:35]

2. Prediction Markets & Legal Odds

Timestamps: 07:08 – 11:34

• Betting on Accountability:
  Buck introduces prediction market odds, sparking a back-and-forth about the statistical chances of indictments:

  • Tim Walz: 44% chance of being charged in 2026.
  • Jacob Frey: 35% chance.
  • Ilhan Omar: 50/50.
  • Don Lemon: 76% chance.

  “So basically, according to the gambling markets, a 50/50 proposition on whether [Walz] will face any sort of significant [charge].” – Clay Travis [09:47]

• Legal Thresholds vs. Political Maneuvering:
  Both hosts are skeptical that wrongdoing can be proven or prosecuted at the highest levels, and they underline the lack of hard evidence.

  "What’s the charge? Being a moron? … We’re not going to have enough room in the prisons for all the Democrats, my friends." – Clay Travis [09:59]

3. The "Weaponization" of Legal Charges

Timestamps: 11:34 – 17:17

• Charging Politicians Can Backfire:
  Buck outlines how indicting polarizing figures can elevate their public profile:

  “You make Don Lemon a martyr. … The best thing that could happen for him is to be charged with a crime.” – Buck Sexton [11:48]

• The "Punishment is the Process":
  Applying law as a political weapon is fraught, especially if done without solid grounds. Reference is made to Trump’s own legal travails and their unexpected benefit to his public standing.

  “You just pointed out, they charge him with 34 felonies and now he’s the President because benefit. Enough people knew by the charges.” – Clay Travis [16:53]

4. Legal Standards & Ethics

Timestamps: 13:08 – 17:33, 32:08 – 34:29

• Difficulty in Proving Direct Corruption:
  Buck explains the evidentiary hurdles:

  “You would have to prove his knowledge of not just the fraud, but the fraud money coming to him… That is a super high bar.” – Clay Travis [14:10]

• Drawing the Legal Line:
  The hosts stress the importance of not filing frivolous or invented charges for political retribution.

  “You shouldn’t just charge Tim Walz with, like, murder because you don’t like the guy. That’s crazy. And … it doesn’t help your political cause.” – Clay Travis [32:56]

5. Calls from Listeners: Process, Punishment, and Public Sentiment

Timestamps: 24:25 – 32:08, 41:38 – 45:18

• The Process Is the Punishment:
  Both callers and hosts remind listeners that merely being subjected to investigation and prosecution is itself a penalty (even if there's no conviction).

  “The process is the punishment, guys. Let’s not forget that.” – James, Louisville [28:45]

• Political Calculus:
  A caller challenges the hosts, urging action regardless of political blowback:

  "Who cares? The Democrats will always vote Democrat. ... Just like the guy said." – Brian, North Carolina [43:25]

6. Political Fallout and Historical Perspective

Timestamps: 34:29 – 36:22

• Changing Norms in the Trump Era:
  Clay notes the old norm of “moving on for the good of the country,” and how that changed post-2016.

  “Trump himself took that position with Hillary Clinton and the classified information. He did not sic the DOJ on her. … It's in the interest of the country to move on.” – Clay Travis [34:29]

• Now, Symmetry Is Demanded:
  “In the Trump era … if you're a Democrat and you break the law, talking about Democrat in elected office, you pay the price.” – Clay Travis [35:53]

7. Listener Engagement and Open Questions

Throughout, esp. 30:23 – 34:29; 41:38 – 44:50

• Open Calls for Prosecutors’ Input:
  Buck encourages legal professionals in the audience to identify what, if anything, would be a legitimate charge.

  “What have you seen that you would charge Tim Walz with? … I haven’t gotten a former prosecutor saying something different…” – Buck Sexton [33:21]

8. Comic Relief & Notable Takedowns

Timestamps: 21:20 – 22:57

• Sharp Political Barbs:
  Scott Besant on Gavin Newsom:

  “Governor Newsom, who strikes me as Patrick Bateman meets Sparkle Beach Ken, may be the only Californian who knows less about economics than Kamala Harris.” – Scott Besant [21:54]

  • Clay laughs: “He decided it was time to tune up Gavin Newsom like Brigitte Macron tuned up Emmanuel. I mean that was a tough one.” [22:45]

9. Gavin Newsom, Don Lemon, and the ‘Viral Church Protest’

Timestamps: 41:38 – 43:25

• Newsom Dodges Commentary:
  When questioned about Don Lemon leading protesters into a church, Newsom claims ignorance, which Buck doesn’t buy:

  “Gavin Newsom said he literally knew nothing about Don Lemon going into a church. … I think he's lying and trying to avoid being held accountable for taking a take on it.” – Buck Sexton [42:46]

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Notable Quotes

• On the likelihood of indictments:

  “I just kind of gotten used to no one of any significance ever getting charged.” – Buck Sexton [07:47]

• On public officials and legal consequences:

  “If being a moron was the charge, we wouldn’t have enough room in the prisons.” – Clay Travis [09:59]

• On politically motivated prosecutions:

  “You make Don Lemon a martyr. ... The best thing that could happen for him is to be charged with a crime.” – Buck Sexton [11:46]

• On the impact of Trump’s indictments:

  “You just pointed out, they charge him with 34 felonies and now he’s the President because benefit.” – Clay Travis [16:53]

• On ethical boundaries in prosecution:

  “You have to operate within the realm of reality because, one, I think there are some ethics and principles we still should adhere to.” – Buck Sexton [32:52]

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Memorable Moments

• Scott Besant’s Takedown of Newsom:
  “Patrick Bateman meets Sparkle Beach Ken”—the sharpest jab of the hour, drawing laughter and a prolonged riff from the hosts [21:54–22:57].

• Clay’s "What’s the Charge? Being a moron?" Bit:
  A running joke about the impracticality (and absurdity) of prosecuting officials merely for incompetence [09:59–10:21].

• Audience Call-ins:
  Listeners push back and test Travis & Sexton’s reasoning on accountability, the difference between prediction and preference, and the dangers of weaponizing the law [24:25–32:08; 41:38–44:50].

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Key Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 04:14 – Beginning of “when are charges coming” main topic
• 07:35 – Prediction market odds for Walz, Frey, and others
• 09:59 – “What’s the charge, being a moron?”
• 11:46 – “You make Don Lemon a martyr...”
• 14:10 – Hurdles to proving knowledge/intention in fraud
• 21:54 – Scott Besant’s takedown of Gavin Newsom
• 28:45 – Caller James emphasizes, “the process is the punishment”
• 32:56 – “You shouldn’t just charge ... because you don’t like the guy.”
• 34:29 – Historic norm of “moving on” from legal retribution in politics
• 41:38 – Return from break, Gavin Newsom dodges church protest question

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Tone & Style

• Language: Candid, irreverent, high-energy; often mixing serious analysis with biting humor and occasional sarcasm
• Approach: Skeptical, pro-transparency, and critical of both political adversaries and ill-conceived strategies on their own side

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Conclusion

This episode provides a sharp, often humorous, but deeply informed look at the legal and political calculus behind prosecuting political figures, focusing on the hot-button question of whether serious charges are on the horizon for Minnesota Democrats. Clay and Buck express a mix of skepticism about actual accountability, concern for legal ethics, and awareness that weaponizing the legal system can have unintended consequences—sometimes helping, not hurting, the accused. Listeners are reminded that in today’s political climate, the process is often as impactful as the punishment, and that the line between legal justice and political revenge is increasingly blurred.

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Transcript

[Clay Travis]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Clay Travis]

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[Clay Travis]

Second hour of clay and Buck kicks off right now. Thanks so much for being here with us everybody. Democrats still pushing hard on Making Minneapolis their new pseudo civil rights struggle. Trump spoke about this actually last night. I think it was the inaugural episode of Katie Pavlich's new show on News Nation. Katie's an old friend from the beginning of my time in, in this business and congrats to her on a new show. She left Fox and got her own, her own show on News Nation. This is Trump talking to Katie about the situation in this is cut 29, the situation in Minnesota. And no surprise, Trump's laying it down.

[Donald Trump]

Something's wrong. When a place like Minnesota, which is a good place, it's got a horrible governor, it's got horrible people. This Elon Omar is horrible. I mean, she comes from a country that doesn't even have a government. They have nothing. And she comes here and she lectures us on the Constitution. She's got constitutional rights, she's just horrible. Somebody said she's worth $30 million. Well, therefore she's obviously a very dishonest person and she should be looked at for that. So you have a couple of things. You have the money thing and then you have the, all of the fake nonsense going on and screaming to people. They're so professional, Clay.

[Clay Travis]

They are not only lying about ice. I keep having to point this out. I think it's very important. Everybody knows ice. They make this situation more difficult on purpose too. Not just the obstruction of ice. I mean the elected officials in places like Minneapolis and Minnesota as a state creating sanctuary jurisdictions necessitates the kind of ICE presence and forward leaning ICE activities that we see. Because here's something that won't shock anyone. The people that they are going after aren't just here illegally. The ones that are the top of the list. And this is why Trump was showing at the White House yesterday all those wanted posters, you know, wanted murder, wanted, you know, pedophilia, wanted rape, all these different things. And Clay, it's because they're already being processed through the system. They've already been arrested. These are people who overwhelmingly have already had a run in with the law and because they refused to just give ICE a heads up, hey, we've got your guy. Do you want him? They have to go and get them in the streets. They are causing this whole situation. The Democrats are forcing all of this.

[Buck Sexton]

The subpoenas story went out yesterday for Mayor Fry, for Tim Walls, for a bunch of other. Keith Ellison, I believe the Attorney General of the state of Minnesota. What I am hearing from people and I don't know if you hear this Buck, but on my day to day when are the charges come? Humming we have seen and heard outrage and I get it. I, I understand a lot of people out there say, well, there's lots of people who are very good at going on, government people going on and condemning things. We can't have this happening. I am outraged all those things. I think a lot of people now are saying winter charges going to come because otherwise you're just fulminating outrage. But it doesn't lead to any tangible result. So do you think there's any chance that we will see charges buck against either Mayor Fry, Tim Walls or any of their high level officials relating to the Minnesota fraud, relating to anti ice protests, the encouragement of them? Do you think anything happens to Fry or Walls in any kind of significant way? We'll ask Michelle to foya this too, top of the next hour because she's running for Senate now as a Republican candidate from Minnesota. She just announced today. But do you think anything happens? Because that's the number one thing I hear. Okay, we've heard all this. When are there going to be tangible results?

[Clay Travis]

No, yeah, they're not going to prosecute either of them. And again, if I'm wrong, I'll come on and admit that I'm wrong. But I don't think I'm going to be wrong on this one. Oh, is there a cow sheet for this on whether or not they'll be prosecuted?

[Buck Sexton]

Yes. Oh yes there is. I'll pull it up right now because.

[Clay Travis]

Money where his mouth is with the buckster.

[Buck Sexton]

Let's see if you. I think will Walls face criminal charges. Let me see, let me see if I can find it. But yes, you can put a line on. Will anyone be charged in the Minnesota daycare fraud before January 1st?

[Clay Travis]

Anyone? Anyone? I think is absolutely. Of course there are people that stole millions of dollars in there. They got them dead to rights. But the governor of Minnesota over this, no way. No way.

[Buck Sexton]

I'm looking right now as whether he will face charges. I think he should. But I do not believe I kind of square with you where I just kind of gotten used to no one of any significance ever getting charged. Now, to be fair, they did manage to get Letitia James charged and they did manage to get, you know, a couple of comey charged. But then almost immediately they were able to fight it by saying, hey, this is unacceptable. And the way that the indictments came down with Lindsey Halligan, she was not appropriately set up and so they were able to figure out a way to get out of that. Um, but I am just skeptical and I'm not even talking about convictions because I think one of the biggest challenges, even if you charge them, would be getting a jury that would convict in Minnesota, because you're seeing a lot of people won't convict in, in D.C. i mean, it's a small thing, but the guy on camera who threw a Subway sandwich at an ICE official, they couldn't actually get, they couldn't actually get any conviction against him. The grand jury refused to, to indict. All right, here's the, Here's a way to look at it, Buck. Will anyone be who will be charged with a federal crime in 2026? John Brennan favored to be charged. Letitia James favored to be charged. Elon OMAR. Right at 50. 50. So that would be significant. Tim Walls, 44% chance. Buck, 44% prediction market chance right now that Tim Walls will face charges at some point in 2026. So basically, according to the gambling markets, a 50, 50 proposition on whether he will face any sort of significant. And Jacob Fry is 35%, by the way.

[Clay Travis]

Well, let's, let's unpack this for a second. And I know right now, people, I can hear the booing from many of you all across America.

[Caller]

Boo.

[Clay Travis]

I'm not saying I don't want him to face charges, but first I would want to know. I'm saying I don't think it will happen. So it's a prediction. That's why we're talking about prediction markets. What would the charge be? Being a moron. If that's the charge, we got a lot. We're not going to have enough room in the prisons for all the Democrats, my friends. What's the charge?

[Buck Sexton]

No, I mean, I, you know, failure to be a.

[Clay Travis]

Failure to be a good politician. You know, give me a break.

[Buck Sexton]

It would be. I, I think it would have. Well, first of all, the odds of him being able to have been proven to directly profit off of the fraud is very, very high. But look, maybe you subpoena documents. I think it's hard to say, hey, there was this amount of $dollars of fraud in Minnesota and Somali healthcare and back channel. Tim Walls was making money. I think that's a hard accusation to make. So I do think that would be somewhat challenging to analyze. By the way, here's one that jumped out at me. Don Lemon, 76% chance that he will be charged.

[Clay Travis]

That one. I would not. I'm not so smug about my prediction or, or, or my betting on that. I wouldn't. I can't. That to me is a 50.

[Buck Sexton]

50 prop.

[Clay Travis]

Tim Walls, I would give someone, and I always do this wrong, 1 to 10 or 10 to 1, but the chance is extremely small that Tim Walls.

[Buck Sexton]

You'd think it's very low chance that he will be facing charges.

[Clay Travis]

I. I would think it's. It should be. If I were setting those odds, I would say it's a 10 to 1 chance for Tim Walls. I think for. For Don Lemon, it is a 50.

[Buck Sexton]

50 shot. Look, if our boy, Don Lemon, it's 76%. I mean, that seems like a pretty decent chance. My only concern with charging somebody like Don Lemon with a crime.

[Clay Travis]

Oh, you'll create a hero out of him, the whole thing.

[Buck Sexton]

That's it. You make him a martyr. And if you make Don Lemon a martyr, then the best thing that could happen for him is to be charged with a crime. And look, I mean, the reality is, if Joe Biden were in office and he had charged you or me with a crime, it probably would have helped us. Did Steve Bannon. I know Steve Bannon had to actually go to prison, which would suck. And I give him credit for going to prison when nobody else gets charged for defying congressional subpoenas at all. Bill Clinton's not.

[Clay Travis]

I think all that happened for. For Bannon was he got some. He got some cool prison tats and probably increased his audience by a couple hundred thousand people or something. I mean, you know, he had a.

[Buck Sexton]

Couple of teardrop tattoos. I give credit to Bannon for standing up, but, I mean, in all seriousness, I think it actually helped his credibility because that was such an illegitimate prosecution from a. The worst president that any of us have ever seen. My concern is Don Lemon. He's mostly irrelevant. We haven't mentioned him probably on the program in six months. And if he gets charged with a crime, he becomes a First Amendment hero, even though he's a moron who I think likely did commit crimes. I just think he benefits in some way. Now, Walls, I think, should be charged. I think your point is it's hard to figure out how to charge him with something that he could be convicted by.

[Clay Travis]

Well, what could he be charged with, though? Like what? Give me.

[Buck Sexton]

Give me the.

[Clay Travis]

Give me the perspective charge. Usually it's things like when people say comey should be charged, or. Or, you know, Leticia James, they wanted to be charged with mortgage fraud, which, by the way, I think the facts on this one are pretty clear. Comey people want him charged under lying to Congress. People have been saying this about Foushee for a while. You know, that he'll.

[Buck Sexton]

I'll give you one on Walls. It's a great question. And by the way, if we have prosecutors out there, this is a, this is the question. It's easy to say file is what is the actual charge? Based on the evidence that I've seen, Buck, I think you could potentially argue and again, this is potentially, and they're doing subpoenas, maybe they get evidence to support this, that Tim Walls. And again, I think it's very hard to get a conviction. But let me make the case. Tim Walls did not stop Somali daycare fraud from occurring because the Somali daycare fraudsters were contributing money to his campaign with fraudulent dollars that they were receiving.

[Clay Travis]

You would have to prove, as I know you know this, but you would have to prove his knowledge of not just the fraud, but the fraud money coming to him.

[Buck Sexton]

Correct.

[Clay Travis]

That is a super high bar. And he would have to be even dumber than I think he is to have left the evidentiary trail necessary for that. He would have to be, he would have to be Hunter Biden level reckless and his daddy ain't the president.

[Caller]

Well.

[Buck Sexton]

And Hunter Biden level reckless barely got him charged with anything, which is a frustration in and of itself. So that would be one angle of the charges that could have occurred potentially and I don't know what the funding mechanisms that has occurred for ice potentially there is these anti ICE protests. The money's coming from somewhere. If it were proven that Tim Walls was funneling any of his campaign dollars to these anti ICE protesters, potentially you could bring charges there. That's a couple. And again, I'm not saying you could convict and you have to get the charges brought. I think a conviction is even more challenging than bringing charges. I'm, I, we, I guarantee you we have a lot of prosecutors out in the audience. What have you seen? And I, and I'm saying this to the prosecutors, 800-282-2882 that you think could represent a colorable claim against Tim Walls. I would be interested to see what they have said to your point. We told you, look, Letitia James, I think beyond a shadow of a doubt charges should be brought against her. I think the comey charges, I think those were legitimate as well. And what I'll say is some of you are going to say I don't even care because they brought 34 felony counts against Trump for basically bookkeeping errors and it was totally illegitimate in New York City and they made him sit there for six months. And I still think that case is going to get tossed. But you nailed it, Buck. The the, the, the punishment is the process. Right in regardless of whatever ends up happening. So even if you could get the headline of Walls charged with a felony, a lot of people out there saying more power to you.

[Clay Travis]

And people are going to say, well, what if we just charge Walls with some nonsense just to make a point? I mean, maybe, maybe that'll happen. I still think very low, very low probability because you also then, I mean, look what happened to Trump. Yeah. You just pointed out they charge him with 34 felonies and now he's the President because benefit.

[Buck Sexton]

Enough people knew by the charges.

[Clay Travis]

Enough people knew. Look at the Mar A Lago raid. Oh, he's giving nuclear secrets away to.

[Buck Sexton]

The butler or whatever.

[Clay Travis]

No, not true. And now he's the President. So that stuff, you got to be careful with weaponizing the law. There are still enough Americans that see that for what it is.

[Buck Sexton]

I think that's true. But no, no, I'm just, I'm sitting here thinking, could we make Tim Walls a liberal hero by charging him with a crime? Like he's also.

[Clay Travis]

Honestly, I think Fry is so much more odious than Walls is just a dumb ass. Fry is actually cheering on and advocating for the destruction of civilization. You know what I mean? Yeah, he's really just kind of a hapless. He's a hapless rube also.

[Buck Sexton]

The problem with Fry getting charged though is it makes him a national political figure. I think your analogy of Trump getting charged was the best thing that could have happened to him for his political career. My concern is sometimes when you over prosecute or aggressively read the statutes to prosecute, you actually elevate people who should not be national figures into national figure dumb. Right now, Cozy Earth will hook you up. All you have to do is go to C, O, Z Y E A R T H. Cozy Earth. They've got a hundred day trial and a 10 year warranty. They want you to be satisfied with your your purchase. Go online to cozyearth.com use my name Clay as the promo code for up to 20% off. That's cozyeart.com promo code. Clay, get hooked up right now. Lux bath towels, Baja bedding sets, all of it. It will get you hooked up and you will be well on your way to making a tremendous difference. Cozyearth.com Clay that's cozyearth.com Clay for 20% off. All of this is fantastic. Check it out today. Cozy earth.com code Clay, you don't know.

[Clay Travis]

What you don't know, right?

[Buck Sexton]

But you could on the Sunday Hang with Clay and Buck Podcast Support for.

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[Buck Sexton]

Welcome back in Clay Travis Buck Sexton show President Trump now taking Questions from reporters. He's been going for about 10 hours now, at least. Right. When did he start speaking? I think he started Speaking at around 8:38, 45am Eastern, if I'm remembering correctly. And now here we are sitting quite a bit later and he's still going in Davos taking questions. I guess this is hour five or hour six after an overnight flight. He's got Howard Lutnick, Scott Besant with him as well. I wanted to play this. I believe we have Scott Besant. Buck, did you see the flying elbow on Gavin Newsom from Scott Besant. This is what Scott Besant had to say about Gavin Newsom. All time takedown. Listen, I think it's very, very ironic that you know Governor Newsom, who strikes me as Patrick Bateman meets Sparkle Beach. Ken may be the only Californian who knows less about economics than Kamala Harris. He's here this week with his billionaire sugar daddy Alex Soros. And the Davos is a perfect place for a man who when everyone else was on lockdown, when he was having people arrested for going to church, he was having thousand dollar a night meals at the French Laundry.

[Caller]

And I'm sure the California people won't forget that.

[Clay Travis]

Man, that's like he took out a two by four on that one. He, he decided it was time to tune up Gavin Newsom like Brigitte Macron tuned up Emmanuel. I mean that was a tough one.

[Buck Sexton]

I mean to go after him that aggressively. And I mean I, I, I, the, the, the Barbie reference is really, really funny. That is well done. I wasn't anticipating Besant just bringing the 2 by 4 to Davos.

[Clay Travis]

You know, there's often a direct correlation between events in the news and the price of precious metals like gold and silver yesterday. Great example. Just the threat of tariffs by our White House if a deal can't be made for Greenland's future. And the price of gold all of a sudden went up two and a half percent in a single day. The stock market went down by 2%. The value of gold is up over the last year, 60% if you've been watching. Now that's just one year. Okay, fine. That's a big move though. How about over the last 20 years? The trend is your friend. Look at it, 700% gold has gone up over the last 20 years. There are forces pushing the dollar lower and making our savings less valuable. That's part of what is making gold go up. It's your turn to buy some gold until February 1st. If you're a first time gold buyer Birch Gold Group. That's who I trust. For my gold, they're offering a rebate of up to $10,000 on qualifying purchases. To claim eligibility and start the process, text my name, Buck to 9898 98. Text B u c k do 9898 98. Text Buck do 9898 98. Welcome back in here to Clay and Buck. Get some talkbacks. Want to get some of your calls as well and let's dive into some of those. Actually, we have, we still have Gary in California, my friends. We got Gary. What do we got from you, Gary?

[Caller]

Tell you what, Clean Buck. By the way, I've been a long time listener to the Rush LIMBAUGH show since 1986. Yeah, yeah.

[Clay Travis]

Wow.

[Caller]

Working at the post office, I would, I would always have Rush on the radio and I got a lot of my fellow mechanic auto mechanics there at the VMF to listen to. Listen to Rush. Yes.

[Buck Sexton]

Well, thank you for that and thank you. We're five years in now, so thank you for sticking with us. What you got for us?

[Caller]

You guys are doing great. I mean, it's so sad when we lost Rush. It's just so sad. Anyways, I, I don't know about you guys, but, you know, Donald is not the same Donald right now as he was two months ago. Because when Donald said he would go after somebody, he went after somebody. And I feel so sorry for the people in Iran. He said that he was going to cover them. You know, he drew a red line. And I look at the amount of people that got killed and it's just so sad.

[Clay Travis]

I mean.

[Buck Sexton]

Well, let me just. Yes, we got to figure out what to do with Iran, Gary. But it was like two weeks ago that Trump took out Maduro from Venezuela in one of the most aggressive military actions in any of our lives. It was only six months ago that he bombed the nuclear capabilities of Iran. I think not being willing to aggressively defend American actions and deploy American assets when he sees it makes sense is actually not somewhere you could criticize him. So you wanted him to do what with Iran? Bomb.

[Caller]

Well, what I would like to see, I mean, my next door neighbor, Hooman, he's a prime example. His father is still in Iran and he really wanted to see Trump step up and protect the people of Iran. I mean, get the job done. Where were people there in Iran? You know, they were holding up signs. Donald Trump. I mean, how often have we seen that in Middle Eastern countries?

[Buck Sexton]

I think the Iran situation, Gary, based on what I have been told and what I have read and what I have surmised. And I think, Buck, you may or may not sign on with this. I think the concern that was presented to Trump is if you attack Iran, you probably are not going to remove the government and you're going to make the Middle east more unstable, which is what Saudi Arabia and Israel, who often have different takes on what should happen in the Middle east, both told President Trump. So I think he's in a bit of a tough spot there.

[Clay Travis]

Yes, that is correct. That is why he didn't do it. I think it's not because he didn't have the. I think anyone saying ever that Trump doesn't have the, the gumptions. Yes, he doesn't. He doesn't have the chutzpah is sorely mistaken. Let's not forget this is the guy who took a bullet in the air, put his fist in the air while he was bleeding and said, fight, fight, fight. Not a lot of people in Washington, D.C. elected office would pull that one off, let me tell you. But I think that he recognized strategically, Clay, it would not have had. We're not in a place to get to the end result. And, you know, this is, this is.

[Buck Sexton]

Big boy foreign policy.

[Clay Travis]

Ok, can we do this in Venezuela? And will it make things better? Can we do it without it blowing up in our face? Get rid of Maduro, take him off, off the chessboard. They, they decided yes. And I think that decision is going to look very prescient in retrospect. Could we do it with the mullahs in Tehran? I think the administration looked at the available options, the reality of the opposition on the ground, and they just said, we can't stop this. And so you're kicking a hornet's nest without an ability to eradicate the hornets, which is what you don't want to do.

[Buck Sexton]

The Wall Street Journal published this morning on their editorial page, the basically secretary of State of Iran, an editorial which I thought was kind of crazy. And then they had an editorial explaining why they did it. They still haven't turned the Internet back on in Iran. And I would just point out that governments that don't allow you to use the Internet are not necessarily very confident in their, their staying power. So we will see how that continues to play out. James in Louisville, what you got for us?

[Caller]

Hey, fellas, nice to talk with y' all again. For the last four years, y', all, y' all been on the air for five, you said multiple times. And Buck kind of busted me on it a few minutes ago, right before I. Right after I called and been waiting. The process is the punishment, guys. Let's not forget that. And we got to sing that loud and clear. Yes, it did help at the end of the day that Trump did get elected because of all the lawfare, because those weren't proper charges. Those weren't properly filed. They tried to take something that was local and bring it up to a federal up in New York and all the other chicanery. Everybody saw through this. But this is billions and billions and billions of dollars.

[Buck Sexton]

James, I don't. I don't. Sorry, sorry to cut you off. James. I don't disagree with anything you said. Pretend that you are a Democrat and Jacob Fry gets charged by Donald Trump with what you consider to be, because you're a Democrat, illegitimate charges. Are you not of the opinion that it could lead to Jacob Fry being a more popular political figure than he was if he's not charged? That's the question that we were debating, because for Trump, for Republicans, everybody rallied around him. Now you can say, yes, these are illegitimate charges. They were all those things. I would submit to you. There are very few persuadable Democrats who are going to see any charges brought against Fry and any charges brought against Walls and say, oh, Trump's got him dead to rights. The DOJ has got a great case here. I don't think those people exist.

[Caller]

Worried about those people. We're worried about the rule of law. And if in the political sense, the independents that also agree that the billions and tens of billions of dollars that have been stolen from the American taxpayer, that we need some retribution for that. And I think the independents will see that.

[Buck Sexton]

Okay.

[Clay Travis]

Okay. Well, thank you. So. So now we could let the caller go. Thank you, caller. Appreciate you calling in. Clay, I would say this in response. I've also gotten some tweets about it and everything else. First of all, people need to understand passions can run high. Everyone always needs to take a moment when you're talking about the difference between a prediction and a preference. So I can say, I think someone's going to win the election. I can say, I think a Democrat's going to win this congressional seat. That's not the same as saying, I want them to. I'm just saying, look, I think this is what's going to happen, you know, unfortunately. Right. I don't think they're going to charge Tim Walls. I'm willing to answer or I'm willing to entertain why we should charge Tim Walls. But someone needs to explain on what grounds now, for People who are saying, and this is the Buckism that many of you have adopted, and I learned it from the CIA, by the way. The process is the punishment. Very real thing. Very true. They use that. However, even within that framework. And this is what you were getting to, Clay, the process is the punishment can backfire. That's my point. It's that if you don't have any grounds whatsoever, and I think against Walls, I'm going to say this, and people can be. I don't know of any grounds whatsoever to charge Tim Wallace with anything. Don Lemon. No, that's different. He obstructed a worship service and was an active participant allegedly, in that obstruction.

[Buck Sexton]

Right.

[Clay Travis]

That's a different. Maybe they bring charges so that I'm like, ok, maybe they will and maybe they should. However, with Walls, you have to tell me what the charge is. If we charged him. Walls, with sedition, just because he's a blubbering buffoon, we're going to look like we don't care about the law at all. And that may. And I think would. And you could even argue should backfire. But, Clay, to your point, if we charge Walls with knowingly accepting illicit campaign donations funneled through this, great. Even if it's a little bit of a stretch, even if we have to prove the mens rea. Even. Ok, fine. But you have to operate within the realm of reality because one, I think there are some ethics and principles that.

[Buck Sexton]

We still should adhere to. Right.

[Clay Travis]

I don't think we should just. You shouldn't just charge Tim Wallace with.

[Buck Sexton]

Like, murder because you don't like the guy.

[Clay Travis]

That's crazy. And two, I think that it doesn't. It doesn't help your political cause. So this is where the, as Bush would have said, strategically comes in.

[Buck Sexton]

Yes, I agree with all of that. That's why, to me, you have to. What's a great line? Show me the man, I'll show you the crime.

[Clay Travis]

Show me the Vrenti Beria, the secret police chief in the Soviet Union. Yes, sir.

[Buck Sexton]

Show me. That's impressive recall. Show me the crime. The best one that I could come up with. And again, we opened up phone lines. This is significant, I think, and said, hey, former prosecutors, what have you seen that you would charge Tim Walls with? Producer Greg. Unless he's. Unless he's hanging up on all the former prosecutors. I haven't gotten a former prosecutor saying something different than what I just laid out to me, what I just laid out of. And again, it's tenuous because to Buck's point, you have to prove that he was doing this intentionally to benefit. Every crime has most crimes. There are some strict liability offenses that gets into the weeds, but most of them requires an act and an intent. That Tim Walls allowed these Somali daycares to continue because he personally wanted to profit off the donations that they were making to his political campaigns. That's a tough case to prove. Now, could you potentially get an indictment and then the process of the punishment becomes the crime? Maybe that's the best case scenario that I can make so far as I can tell right now, based on the evidence that I have seen.

[Clay Travis]

And I think that we've made it very clear that something that has changed in the Trump era was. And I would say that Trump himself. Trump himself was operating under this principle. And it was for the. For the betterment. That's a word, right? For the betterment of the country. Sometimes you don't charge people for non heinous, non super serious crimes in politics. So we can move on. Before you start yelling at me, Trump himself took that position with Hillary Clinton and the classified information. He did not sic the DOJ on her. He absolutely could have. Some would argue he should have. She broke the law. I had a clearance. I know more about it than Hillary does. What she did was absolutely criminal. Okay? She broke the law many times over. No question about it. Full stop. Many prosecutors actually have come out and said that, even though Comey was like, no prosecutor. Comey's a jackass. Point is, Clay, there used to be. It's in the interest of the country to move on. Right? That was our thing. I think we've argued now in the Trump era. No. Given what they've done to Trump and the repeated weaponization of the law they've used against Republicans, we at least have to operate under a. If you're a Democrat and you break the law, talking about Democrat in elected office, you pay the price. Leticia, Letitia James, she should be prosecuted if she broke the law. You know, like you go down the list.

[Buck Sexton]

Let me give you one idea here, Buck. As we go to break, that may could be in play. Maybe when they're sending these grand jury requests for documents and whatnot, they may be seating the ground for potential charges because if they don't provide the information, then you could potentially have obstruction charges. Now, this is messy because you're basically creating the crime itself by trying to get documents of which they.

[Clay Travis]

It's like an obstruction trap.

[Buck Sexton]

Instead of a perjury trap, it's an obstruction trap. So a part of me thinks When I see these grand jury document requests out there that what they're expecting is that they're going to get defiance. And when they get defiance, then they charge for obstruction, which is easier to prove because you have created. Basically, this is a legitimate process crime. And remember, this is what they did to Trump with the classified documents they tried to develop a record of. Hey, there are classified documents. He won't give them back. Now we're going to charge him with failure to return classified documents. It's a big process trap that they created.

[Clay Travis]

Totally agree. January is the month more people hit the reset button on their expenses than any other because, you know, we spend a lot of cash. A lot of dough gets laid out in the holiday season. Well, I got an idea. I want to help you. It's really easy too. It's just going to make things easier, cheaper and better for you. Switch to Pure Talk from Verizon, T Mobile or AT and T this month and over the course of this year 2026, you'll save somewhere between 600 to $1,000. Pure Talk saves you 50% or more off your existing cell phone bill without sacrificing any quality of Service. That's because PureTalk operates on the same cell towers and network as one of those other companies. Without all the overhead expenses. The cost can be as low as $20 a month for unlimited talk, text and 3 gigs of high speed data on PureTalk super fast nationwide 5G network, dial pound 250, say Clay and Buck and Pure Talk's US customer service team will help you switch in minutes again talk, text and data for just $20 a month. Once more, dial pound250, say Clay and Buck. You'll save an additional 50 off your first month. Pure talk, America's wireless company news and politics.

[Buck Sexton]

But also a little comic relief. Clay, Travis and Buck Sexton. Find them on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

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[Buck Sexton]

Travis Buck Sexton show gets a couple of your calls here in a sec. But our good friend Gavin Newsom, we're gonna start talk to Michelle Tafoya at the top of the next hour. She has announced she is running as a Republican for Senate in Minnesota. She will be in the primary here soon. And we got a bunch of callers. We'll get to some of you guys. But Gavin Newsom was asked what he thought about Democrats storming the church in Minneapolis and just a few minutes ago in Davos, this is what he said.

[Clay Travis]

Quick question, you mentioned Minneapolis. Any comment on this? Don Lemon charging those guys into the church like that.

[Donald Trump]

I literally, it's funny, someone mentioned Don Lemon and Trump the other day and so I have no idea what that's about.

[Buck Sexton]

Big viral story.

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He had a bunch of agitators.

[Buck Sexton]

They ran into some kind of church. Into a church? Yes.

[Clay Travis]

Even focus on this. No, it's not even at this focus.

[Donald Trump]

Literally don't know anything about it.

[Buck Sexton]

To be fair.

[Clay Travis]

Clay, hold on a second. To be fair, Gavin Newsom knows that if he walked into a church, he would spontaneously combust. So he's not up on church stuff.

[Buck Sexton]

If you couldn't hear that because there's a little bit of talk back there. Gavin Newsom said he literally knew nothing about Don Lemon going into a church. Now, I think most of you are going to take my perspective, which is he's lying about it. I would argue he's got awful advisors and that is not a sign that they are very competent. If he is unaware of this, given how viral that story was and how much discussion there's been, I think he's lying and trying to avoid being held accountable for taking it, having a take on it. Brian in Summerfield, North Carolina. What you got, Brian?

[Caller]

Hey guys. You know, I just, you guys are taking me off right off the beginning. I just started listening to you maybe 10 minutes ago and heard that other callers call about basically where you guys were like, you know, oh, we're concerned about will this Democrat become even more popular and blah, blah, blah. That's the calculus that's going on. Who cares? The Democrats will always vote Democrat. It's not like him becoming more popular on the Democrat side is going to get him more votes from the Republican side or even from the independent side. Just like the guy said.

[Clay Travis]

No, no. Okay, hold on, wait I got a question. Do you think it was good or bad for Trump to be charged by the 34 counts in New York, for example? Good or bad for Trump?

[Caller]

Ridiculously awful. These are not trumped up charges.

[Buck Sexton]

Hold on, hold on, hold on for a sec. No, I think there's a difference between the legal and the political here. What we're saying. We'll take some more calls on this in the next hour. What our position is. I think most people would agree with this. I don't think Trump would be President of the United States if Democrats had never charged him with a crime at all. I really think that won him the election. And so what are the charges that are going to be brought? And I think you can learn from the lesson of Trump. Sometimes when you think, think you are tearing someone down, you can actually be elevating them when you bring unsound political based charges against people.

[Clay Travis]

So bringing frivolous charges makes you look bad. Everybody. Frivolous charges are not smart because you're doing so under color of law in the Constitution. Just because they act. This is like, well, Buck, they take contributions from illegal aliens for. Yeah, but like we're not going to do that. That's a bad idea. Right? There's fighting fire with fire and there's lighting yourself on fire.

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[Clay Travis]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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