Hour 2 - WI Sen. Ron Johnson

Summary

Summary of "Hour 2 - WI Sen. Ron Johnson"
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Release Date: June 10, 2025

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Introduction

In the second hour of "The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show," hosts Clay Travis and Buck Sexton engage in an in-depth conversation with Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin. The discussion centers around the pressing issue of federal government spending, the burgeoning national debt, and the implications of the recently passed spending bill, often referred to as the "Big Beautiful Bill."

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Overview of Federal Spending and National Debt

Senator Ron Johnson opens the dialogue by highlighting the alarming increase in federal expenditures over recent years. He states:

"We spent $4.4 trillion in 2019. Pandemic hits spent 6.5. And we never look back. [...] I'll spend over 7 trillion. That's a 58% increase."
[03:07]

Johnson emphasizes that the government has maintained a dangerously high level of spending since the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic, contrasting it with historical precedents such as post-World War II budget adjustments.

He further elaborates on the deficits under various administrations:

"Under the Bush administration, eight years, they average deficits of $250 billion a year. Obama came in his first four years, 1.3 trillion..."
[03:44]

Key Points:

• Federal spending surged from $4.4 trillion in 2019 to over $7 trillion post-pandemic.
• Historical deficits under Bush, Obama, and Trump administrations laid the groundwork for current fiscal challenges.
• Biden administration continued high spending levels, averaging a $1.9 trillion deficit over four years.

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Allocation of Increased Spending

The hosts probe into where the additional federal funds are being directed. Senator Johnson clarifies:

"It's literally across the board. [...] we need to forensically audit every line, every program..."
[05:29]

He distinguishes between discretionary and mandatory spending, noting that beyond Social Security, Medicare, and interest payments, funds are also flowing into Medicaid and other mandatory programs. Johnson argues for a meticulous audit to identify and eliminate inefficiencies:

"We've never done it. [...] take the Doge team, transfer them over this process."
[06:04]

Key Points:

• Increased spending is distributed across various sectors, making it challenging to pinpoint specific areas for cuts.
• Mandatory spending, including Medicaid and other programs, constitutes a significant portion of the budget increase.
• Advocacy for a comprehensive audit to scrutinize over 2,600 federal programs.

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Interaction with the Trump Administration

The conversation shifts to Senator Johnson's recent interactions with the Trump administration regarding the spending bill:

"I was in the White House last Wednesday [...] let Kevin Hassett and his economic team go through these."
[07:20]

Johnson recounts presenting his charts to President Trump, which reportedly made a significant impact:

"One chart saved the President's life."
[07:30]

However, he expresses skepticism about the bill's ability to address long-term fiscal issues, advocating instead for systemic changes to maintain pre-pandemic spending levels.

Key Points:

• Collaborative efforts with the Trump administration to address spending concerns.
• Recognition of the spending bill's immediate benefits but acknowledgment of its insufficiency for long-term fiscal stability.
• Proposal of a "forcing mechanism" to ensure sustained fiscal responsibility.

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Political Feasibility and Party Dynamics

Clay Travis challenges the practicality of Senator Johnson's proposals within the current political climate, referencing Stephen Miller's stance on budget negotiations:

"Can you address that?"
[09:59]

Senator Johnson responds by discussing potential legislative pathways, including reconciliation processes and budget review panels, while noting internal Republican disagreements:

"I think we're going to make it more conservative. [...] there's some people who agree with you. Chip Roy, for instance..."
[10:34]

He critiques the House's approach to the spending bill, asserting that the initial reductions were insufficient and misallocated, particularly in areas like Medicaid expansion.

Key Points:

• Acknowledgment of internal Republican divisions regarding the extent of spending cuts.
• Critique of the House's allocation of $1.5 trillion in spending reductions, particularly within Medicaid.
• Emphasis on the need for bipartisan cooperation to enact meaningful fiscal reforms.

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Impact of Chronic Debt and Inflation

Senator Johnson delves into the broader implications of sustained high deficits, including the devaluation of the dollar and the silent tax of inflation:

"Reagan in 98, a dollar you held in 1998 is worth 51 cents. That dollar is now worth 80 cents. That's permanent damage being done."
[25:07]

He warns of a potential "death spiral" where rising interest rates could exacerbate the debt problem, leading to increased borrowing costs and reduced fiscal flexibility:

"If they look at us as not serious about this, [...] bond markets has been telling that they're going to demand a higher and higher interest rate."
[33:20]

Key Points:

• Chronic deficits contribute to the devaluation of the U.S. dollar, eroding purchasing power.
• Inflation acts as an indirect tax, diminishing the real value of money.
• Rising interest rates may limit future government spending options and strain fiscal resources.

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Future Strategies and Solutions

Seeking solutions, Senator Johnson proposes the establishment of a budget review panel and the employment of forensic auditors to meticulously evaluate federal spending:

"I propose a budget review panel, hire forensic auditors, take the Doge team, transfer them over this process."
[06:04]

He underscores the necessity of a sustained, methodical approach to fiscal reform, rather than relying solely on single legislative packages:

"A process to achieve and maintain [reasonable spending levels]."

Additionally, he emphasizes the importance of public awareness and accountability, highlighting the role of the media and constituent pressure in driving fiscal responsibility.

Key Points:

• Creation of specialized panels and hiring of forensic auditors for detailed budget analysis.
• Need for ongoing, structured processes to ensure long-term fiscal sustainability.
• Leveraging media and public opinion to foster accountability and support for spending reforms.

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Views on AI and Economic Growth

The discussion briefly touches upon the role of technology and artificial intelligence in mitigating economic challenges. Senator Johnson expresses caution regarding AI, noting both its potential and limitations:

"Be very cautious of AI. [...] it is often confidently wrong."
[30:30]

He references Milton Friedman to illustrate the balance between technological advancement and employment:

"Milton Friedman was in China [...] he's asking the question, can you stay."
[30:04]

While acknowledging that productivity gains from AI could aid economic growth, Johnson remains skeptical about its capacity to offset the deep-rooted fiscal issues.

Key Points:

• Recognition of AI's potential to enhance productivity and economic growth.
• Caution against over-reliance on AI due to its propensity for errors and the complexities of integrating it into the economy.
• Emphasis on traditional fiscal measures as primary solutions to economic challenges.

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Final Thoughts and Conclusions

As the episode progresses towards its conclusion, Senator Ron Johnson reiterates the urgency of addressing the national debt and advocates for comprehensive fiscal reforms. He likens the situation to familial financial responsibility, stressing the importance of prudent spending:

"It's easy to be the parent... Hey, we're going to go to Disney World. It's really hard to be the parent says, but we can't afford it."
[33:56]

Clay Travis summarizes the conversation by highlighting the critical need for sustainable economic policies and the challenges posed by entrenched spending habits. The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of the importance of informed governance and fiscal accountability.

Key Points:

• Urgent call for comprehensive and sustained fiscal reforms to prevent economic collapse.
• Analogy of personal financial responsibility to national budget management.
• Reinforcement of the necessity for bipartisan efforts to achieve meaningful and lasting solutions.

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Notable Quotes

• Senator Ron Johnson:
  "This is our budget, more than 2,000 lines of federal budget, more than 2,600 federal programs."
  [05:29]

• Senator Ron Johnson:
  "The first step in solving any problem is admitting you have one."
  [07:42]

• Senator Ron Johnson:
  "We've been living with a chronic debt crisis now for decades. It's called the devaluation of the dollar."
  [25:07]

• Senator Ron Johnson:
  "If they look at us as not serious about this, [...] the bond markets has been telling that they're going to demand a higher and higher interest rate."
  [33:20]

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Conclusion

This episode offers a candid and comprehensive examination of the Federal government's fiscal policies through the lens of Senator Ron Johnson. The discussion underscores the gravity of the national debt, critiques current spending practices, and advocates for rigorous auditing and sustained fiscal reforms. The conversation serves as a clarion call for accountability and prudent economic management to safeguard the nation's financial future.

Transcript

[Clay Travis]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Buck Sexton]

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[J.R. Martinez]

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[Senator Ron Johnson]

This medal is for the men who went down that day.

[J.R. Martinez]

On Medal of Honor Stories of Courage. You'll hear about these heroes and what their stories tell us about the nature of bravery. Listen to Medal of Honor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Unknown Speaker]

Welcome in our number two Clay Travis Buck Sexton Show. We're up here in Washington, D.C. visiting with many of our friends in Congress as the big beautiful bill wins. Wines, I guess is the correct word its way through the halls of Congress. It's in the Senate right now and Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin is with us and we are going to do a deep dive on spending the bill. What should happen from his perspective and where we are headed. So for people out there that really want to dive into some of the nitty gritty about the economic policies in place, we wanted to bring you in because I would say you and Rand Paul, Senator, I think it's fair to say, are probably at the forefront of we are spending way too much money. And your argument has been that essentially, and you correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, but I'm trying to lay it out and then let you make the case. Essentially, we have embedded the government spending that started with COVID that accelerated at a rapid level as the default basis for budgets going forward. Instead of, for instance, after World War II, drastically dialing back spending, we have allowed that spending process to become the basis upon which all budget bills since COVID have been crafted. Is that correct? How do we fix it if it is correct?

[Senator Ron Johnson]

First of all, welcome to this alternate universe.

[Clay Travis]

Thank you.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Washington, DC.

[Clay Travis]

You know, both were former residents here, so we're like reformed swamp creatures.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

You were smart enough to move out and I come here part time. But no, I mean, you, you stated the case pretty well. We spent $4.4 trillion in 2019. Pandemic hits spent 6.5. And we never look back. And I've probably said this on the show, I don't know of American Family. If they got ill, somebody got ill, they had to borrow $50,000, pay for medical bills. If they got well the next year, they wouldn't keep borrowing $50,000 and keep spending at that level. That's exactly what we've done. So 4.4 this year we'll spend over 7 trillion. That's a 58% increase. Next year, about 7.3. I know these are a lot of numbers, but that's why I do charts.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yep.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

And you know what's, what's kind of depressing about my charts is it lays out a pretty depressing reality. Let me throw some more numbers. Under The Bush administration, eight years, they average deficits of $250 billion a year. Obama came in his first four years, 1.3 trillion. That sparked the Tea Party movement. That's why I came into town. The Tea Party movement had an impact. And those deficits in his last term were $550 billion. Trump comes into office, had to do deals with Democrats. His average deficit was 810. Then Covid hit one year, $303.1 trillion deficit. And again with responsible leaders like we had in World War II. Okay, pandemic's over. Time to return to pre pandemic levels. It's not what Biden did. Biden continued to spend again this year about 7 trillion. His average deficit for four years was 1.9 trillion.

[Clay Travis]

Okay, wait, so let's, let's jump in right there because I think that's very important and we have the charts to work with. But all of our people all across the country are, we're, they're trying to visualize these numbers as we go where. Yeah, he's holding it up. I wish we had. Oh, we can really. Some of the really small. But tell me this, where is the additional money going? Because here's what happens every time we talk about cutting. And I also have to bring up some of the objections to the objections to the big beautiful bill. And I want you to address those in a second. But first, anytime we talk about cutting, we could light up the phones for three hours straight here. How dare you. You want to touch my Social Security? How dare you. You want to touch my Medicare. Well, hold on a second. If those things weren't being touched at 800 billion or a trillion a year, what, where's the extra trillion dollars, give or take? That now is the post pandemic spending norm. What's that money going?

[Senator Ron Johnson]

It's literally across the board. And that's what I've laid out with my pre pandemic levels of spending. That analysis where you take actual total outlays, you exclude Social Security, Medicare and interest, spend what you need to spend, and then you plus up all those other outlays by population growth, inflation, and if you do that for 2019, for example, this year you'd be spending 6.5 versus the 7. You know, if you go back to Clinton or Obama, you'd be spending 5.5 to 6.2. Okay, so again, it's across the board, which is why one of the solutions is we need to forensically audit every line, every program, like Doge has done.

[Clay Travis]

Okay, wait, so you're telling me then that there is, you know, of, of that spending increase. If it's coming from these, is it not? And you're not going to touch it. Sounds to me like you wouldn't touch the non discretionary spending, right? Cause that's, that's, you're taking Medicare, Social Security and interest. You see, that's right.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

That's part of mandatory. But you also have Medicaid and we've got to fix the Obamacare portion of that. Get a trillion dollars of other mandatory spending.

[Clay Travis]

This is what I mean, where's that other trillion dollars? That's, it's, it's Medicaid and then just everything else.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

So what they've done over years without, because nobody knows they're doing this, because you have these omnibus spending bills and just magically they move discretionary spending into the mandatory accounts. So during COVID that other mandatory, not Social Security, Medicare or even Medicaid, I think went up, topped out about $2.2 trillion. In 2019 was 642 billion, went to 2.2. It's been ramping down. Last year I think it was 1.3 trillion. This year would be about a trillion. That's a trillion dollars. Discretionary spending is about 1.7.

[Clay Travis]

You were a business guy. Trump was and still is in many ways a Business guy. When you say this to him, what does he say? Because he wants this thing passed with. With gusto. He wants this big beautiful bill. He believes. I'm sure you've talked to him about these numbers, right? I'm sure you talked about this.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

I was in the White House last Wednesday. And when my time to talk, I pulled out my chart, by the way, said, put that away. I've seen your last 10 appearances. You're too negative, Ron.

[Unknown Speaker]

One of your charts saved the President's life. So you're. So this is a different chart than.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah, so actually saved his life. Yes.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

So one chart saved the President's life. I'm hoping this one saves America.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, so what? So he says what? Because the argument here is that they would like to get this bill passed by July 4th. On the Senate side, it's already passed. The House side. Where are we? Do you think that's likely? How does this get reconciled? What? How. How does. How does the Senate. Because it's not just you, it's Rand Paul. It's others that have this perspective, too. Not a huge majority. How does this get solved?

[Senator Ron Johnson]

So again, just so he told me I was being too negative, and I took that to heart. I have been pretty.

[Clay Travis]

You're generally a very jolly fellow. I will say.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

I got smile on my face. Okay. But you got to lay out the reality. So I had a great meeting just a couple hours ago with Vice President Vance and Kevin Hassett. And that was kind of what we arranged. The White House. Okay. Let's get on the same page. You know, I worked all weekend long. I wrote this report myself. These are all my own charts. I'm the accountant here. Right. But we're going to let Kevin Hassan and his economic team go through these. You know, check out the numbers. I'm not sure when we release this, but that's the first thing you have to get on the same page. And. And I told the president of the White House is the first step in solving any problem. So you have to admit you have one. So again, I have been too negative because I've been focusing on the macro problem and I haven't been talking as positively as I should on all the good things in the big beautiful bill. Because there are a lot of good things. We fund the border. We fund defense. This House did a pretty good job of identifying about $1.5 trillion in spending reduction. That's good. We extend current tax law. We take an automatic tax increase off the table. We avoid default. Okay. Those are all great things. My Only point, and I'm sorry I have to make just isn't enough. Okay? So what I've been asking for always is a commitment to return to a reasonable pre pandemic level spending and a process to achieve and maintain it. Now I'm throwing into the method because one and done won't work. I mean, this is great progress that we'd be making with one big beautiful bill. I don't deny that. But it doesn't solve the problem. So I'm looking for a forcing mechanism. So we come back in this Congress, not wait till winning an election.

[Clay Travis]

You're telling me this is politically realistic? Because that's the next question is because this is what's being said. And you know, Stephen Miller's a very smart guy in this White House. He's been out there making the case that the objections to this are more about people making a philosophical argument than operating within the reality of what is possible. And that if you don't do it this way, you're going to have to work with Democrats down the line who don't want to work with you. So can you address that?

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Again, we can use another reconciliation process using the fiscal 2026 budget. I have gotten just basically positive feedback from President Trump's ardent supporters and also my supporters. Again, Republicans, we realize we have a massive debt and deficit problem.

[Clay Travis]

Are there some Republicans who won't go along with what you want to do here? Is that. I mean, where's the. It seems so logical to us.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

I would say part of it is marketing. Okay. The House was all focused on getting this thing done. And you know, they pulled, literally, they pulled $1.5 trillion out of the air. It really wasn't in context. You know, when I saw that, I said, you guys have set the bar way too low. Okay, we need trillions of dollars in long term to get this thing done. But then they assigned more than half of that to ENC the committee. All they can do is Medicaid. So they just open themselves up. You're gonna slash Medicaid for. And you didn't make the case. You realize that what we're trying to do is fix the Obamacare portion of Medicaid called Medicaid expansion. That pays a. When a state puts a buck in for a single childless, you know, working age, able bodied adult, the federal government puts in nine bucks versus a Dallas state puts in for a disabled child. Federal government kicks in $1.33. That has led to all kinds of distortions. There's a great article in the Wall Street Journal A father of a 17 year old autistic child can't get home care for 10 years because he's being crowded out by single adults.

[Clay Travis]

That should be worked on welfare. Medicaid is just a big giant and.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

So you literally are putting at risk the benefits for the people that we want to help both in Medicare and in Medicaid. So you got to root out these things, but you have to make the case and you can't make it in five months. So the game plan here, so as I was talking to vice President is okay, it's going to take time. I propose a budget review panel, hire forensic auditors, take the Doge team, transfer them over this process. A House, a Senate, a White House effort to forensically audit every all more than 2,000 lines of federal budget, more than 2,600 federal programs. We've never done it. We've never done it. And even this process, you'll notice they've exempted most spending, most programs. They focused on a couple. They get slaughtered in the, in the public opinion because Democrats, it's easy pickings for them because they have the press behind them. I mentioned on the Sunday shows it's so easy to be a Democrat. You spend, you mortgage your kids future, you never be held accountable by the media. It's hard doing what we're trying to do. The good news for your listeners is that we're all pretty much on the same page. We want to fix this problem. We just are dealing with something that's very difficult to do.

[Unknown Speaker]

What's timing look like and how significant is timing from your perspective? Because the White House has said they'd like to have this done in the Senate by July 4th. We know that we don't have a very big majority in the House. So Mike Johnson, speaker is going to have to go back and work through whatever conciliation bill is going to come out. What to you does this timeframe look like?

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Well, I think most people thought the House, whatever the House passed, the Senate would water down. I think the opposite is true. I think we're going to make it more conservative. I think we're going to be doing even more reductions in terms of spending. And again I've got colleagues that are demanding it. So.

[Unknown Speaker]

And there's some people who agree with you. Chip Roy, for instance, a friend of ours on the House side wants way more spending. Right. I mean this was an issue for Mike.

[Clay Travis]

Spending cuts.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Yeah. I mean, I mean they voted for it because they kicked can over the House or the Senate Hoping we'd make it more conservative.

[Clay Travis]

So you talk about the marketing. I'm just going to say this. You know, we've had Senator Rand Paul on the show. We've talked to him. We've heard about on this, and so many issues. And a lot of the time I just think he's. You making great arguments. But in this moment, to talk about how there's too much money going to the border after 10 million illegals came in under the Obama, I mean, Biden administration, and to say that that's where we're gonna. We're gonna start to make the savings happen in a meaningful way, even if numerically you could start to make. I just think it's malpractice because people. And this is about saving the country and, you know, just to save money when you're trying to save the country. I think people view the urgency of the border and the illegal immigration issue as, you know, the policy equivalent of a war, meaning if we don't do this thing right, we don't have the same America going forward.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Well, I'm a really frugal guy, and I don't mind sharpening my pencil on any spending. He is chairman of Homeland Security. He should be doing oversight on this again. In the first administration, we spent $6.6 billion to build 450 miles of Wall Street. Now they're asking 46 and a half million billion just for the wall that's going to.

[Clay Travis]

Well, we didn't have enough money to finish the wall, though. I remember that was a problem.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

But. But there's not. There's not 3,000 or 4,000 miles have to be built. So again, I think he's got a wall guy. He's. He's asking the question, can you stay.

[Unknown Speaker]

With us a little?

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Absolutely.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because there's some more question. But quickly as. And then Bucks got to do a Read here. Timeframe, July 4th, any chance in your mind?

[Senator Ron Johnson]

I think that's. I think that's ambitious. I think. I really think in the Senate, we're looking more before August recess.

[Unknown Speaker]

Before August recess. And it has to be done before August recess.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

You know, Destiny is going to expire sometime mid August to late September. So that's part of the pressure. I mean, that's part what they do. One of the reasons they bundle this all up is, yeah, I don't want to see taxes increase. I don't want to default on the debt. So it just puts pressure on us. So I've been very upfront. Nobody should be surprised. I wrote my first column on reasonable pre pandemic level spending and options to do it in the Wall street journal on January 1st. So again, I've been beating this drum for a while.

[Clay Travis]

Ron Johnson in the hot seat. He doesn't like it hot. He prefers it cold. He's from Wisconsin. But we'll keep going. Look, we're not dealing with this debt. You know it, I know it. Which means that there's those long term issues of governance and issues with the dollar and owning gold is just one way to prepare for that uncertain future. I've been a gold guy for over a decade. My dad gave me my first gold coin when I was in my 20s. He said, you know what?

[Senator Ron Johnson]

I.

[Clay Travis]

He's a big gold believer. And I've been a big gold believer ever since. I've been building up my gold reserves and man, the price of gold has seen great appreciation in just the past year, up 40%. I'm also a big history guy. Clay likes to refer to us as history nerds. What? Has there ever been a time when there's been a civilization in society that said, you know what? You know what? I don't need gold. No value in that. Yeah, there's a reason for this, all right. And that's why I think you should call the Birch Gold Group. That's who I use. Trump administration is doing a lot to try to right the shit, but they're not going to do it all. And there's a lot more that we have to look at in the future in terms of the spending. Gold makes sense. And by the way, you can invest in gold or you could just have part of your savings in a gold IRA or 401k. Very solid moves. One of the best ways to protect your savings out there and to diversify with Birch Gold's help. Text my name Buck to 989898 I just bought some more gold myself bars and coins about two months ago. Text Buck to 989898 Birchgold will send you a free info kit on gold. No obligation, just useful information. Again, text my name Buck to 989898 or go to this website birchgold.com Buck.

[Buck Sexton]

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[J.R. Martinez]

The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration in the United States. Recipients have done the improbable, showing immense bravery and sacrifice in the name of something much bigger than themselves.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

This medal is for the men who went down that day. It's for the families of those who didn't make it.

[J.R. Martinez]

I'm J.R. martinez. I'm a U.S. army veteran myself and I'm honored to tell you the stories of these heroes who on the new season of Medal of Stories of Courage from Pushkin Industries and I Heart podcast from Robert Blake, the first black sailor to be awarded the medal to Daniel Daly, one of only 19 people to have received the Medal of Honor twice. These are stories about people who have distinguished themselves by acts of valor going above and beyond the call of duty. You'll hear about what they did, what it meant, and what their stories tell us about the nature of courage and sacrifice. Listen to Medal of Honor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Clay Travis]

We're right here in D.C. close to Capitol Hill, close to the White House, with Senator Ron Johnson in studio. Senator, we've only got about a minute and change here before we get onto the next break, and then we'll keep you through to talk more about this topic. But your reaction as somebody who in your own home state, of course, what happened in Kenosha, some of those visuals and images I think reminds people of some of the rioting we're seeing in Los Angeles. What do you think about how the president's handled this so far? And what are the American people seeing in Southern California?

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Was it Yogi Berra said it's deja vu all over again.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Now this is exactly what Democrat governance did in Wisconsin. You had Governor Evers, President Trump offered him the National Guard. He refused. It allowed Kenosha to burn for a couple days. A couple people got killed as a result. Now they're doing the same thing here. Governor Evers actually signed a letter with the other Democrat governors supporting Newsom and saying that Trump's making the wrong decision. No, Trump is making the absolute right decision. What we found out in Kenosha is once you had the manpower of the National Guard, the violence ended. And that's the whole point. And what's even more unconscionable about this is the Democrats are refusing to protect law enforcement. I mean, these guys put their life on the line. They're willing to serve and sacrifice. And you've got Democrat politicians who are inciting the protests and the violence. And what I wanna do is I want a thorough investigation. I hope Cash and I hope Pam Bondi are on this. Who is financing this? This is their playbook. This is the playbook from summer of 2020. They're just implementing it a lot sooner in this Trump administration. Again, this isn't springing up just by accident.

[Clay Travis]

Well, we'll get into this a little bit more here, coming up in a second. I also want to take some of your calls, 800-282-2882. And if you get us a quick talk back, maybe we can even play it for Senator Johnson on the air. You can get a question in to the senator yourself. You know, I know that Father's Day is coming up soon. Moms and dads have the same instincts that Kerry and I have, which is protecting your children at any cost. And, you know, especially under your own roof. It is up to you to do that. Right. I want you to consider products from Sabre, the number one pepper spray brand trusted by law enforcement. Sabre is spelled S A B R E and their website is sabreradio.com. that's s a b r e sabre radio.com Clay's wife, my wife, they both like having non lethal options to defend themselves at home and when they're out and about. That includes, of course, the pepper sprays and pepper gels from Sabre, but also the pepper projectile launcher. This is shaped like a pistol rifle and it sends out a pepper projectile that goes much longer than you think and stops the threat. Clay and I have tried this thing out. It's incredible. Sabre has the best in class. Go to sabre radio.com sabers a b r e radio.com or call 844-824-safe.

[Unknown Speaker]

Hey, Buck, one of my kids called me an unk the other day.

[Clay Travis]

An unk?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yep. Slaying, evidently. For not being hip, being an old dude.

[Clay Travis]

So how do we un unk you?

[Unknown Speaker]

Get more people to subscribe to our YouTube channel. At least that's what my kids tell.

[Clay Travis]

Me, that's simple enough. Just search the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton show and hit the subscribe button.

[Unknown Speaker]

Takes less than five seconds to help un unk me.

[Clay Travis]

Do it for Clay, do it for freedom and get great content while you're there. The Clay Travis and buck Sexton Show YouTube channel.

[Unknown Speaker]

We've got Senator Ron Johnson in here. We love having him on. I just want to ask you this question because there's no Democrats who have any basic business knowledge. I mean, it's unfortunate. It used to not be that way. But when you've got people like AOC running around, shutting down back in the day, the Amazon headquarters not understanding how tax credits work and it's really economic illiteracy on many different levels. When you dive into the budget particulars, how many. And it could be Democrats, Republicans, how conversant do you think in detail the average United States senator and congressperson is in understanding how the US Budget works and where the money goes? I mean, did you expect to find way more knowledge before you got into politics? Because I'll be honest, before Buck and I started doing this show, I had a lot more faith in the knowledge of, of the average politician than I do.

[Clay Travis]

I had to tell Clay there was no Santa Claus.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

So I think there's a lot of knowledge in that narrow areas that they focus on. You know, if you're appropriations, if you're chairman of Appropriations Subcommittee, you know that subcommittee function pretty well. I'll tell you a story about three years ago, this is in the pandemic and you know, we're spending these massive amounts and McConnell's doing some icky omnibus deal with Schumer. All of a sudden we're, we're for earmarks Republicans. We've got a res. You know, that's part of our conference resolution. We're not going to accept earmark. All of a sudden we were. So I got up, got up in front of my Republican colleagues, said, hey, anybody know how much we spent last year? Dead silence. Nobody. Nobody knew. That's crazy because we never talk about it. We're the largest financial andy in the world. All we appropriate is about 25% of the budget, about 1.7 trillion out of the 7 trillion that we're going to spend. So nobody knew. I went out to the Washington media. They're the watchdogs, right? Ask them the same question. They said, well, it's over a trillion dollars.

[Unknown Speaker]

Now.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

That's just a small question.

[Clay Travis]

Now we talk about this when the tea. So I started in media, when The Tea Party got, got rolling.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

I'm, I'm still more t prior Republican.

[Clay Travis]

And, and I just remember that there was this, this whole movement. And, and I think, I think the debt then was like 9, 10.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Yeah, it was 9 when I got here. 11 years. 14 trillion.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah. So let's, but let's say it's, you know, low double digits, trillions of dollars. Now it's going on. It's going on seven.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Yeah.

[Clay Travis]

So.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

And it's projected to hit about 60 in 10 years.

[Clay Travis]

So clearly the math, the math is a problem here. But I feel like one of the frustrations we have is that we talk about this and everybody wants to fix it, but nobody wants to do the things in order to fix it because, you know, it's like telling someone to go on a diet. It's more fun to just eat chocolate cake every day and assume somebody else is going to do the work for you. So I don't know, I don't know how we get people to get dialed in on this and understand that if you just keep spending because it feels good to spend, we're never going to fix the problem.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Well, inside the conference, I'm basically the, the kid that says the emperor has no clothes. I mean, I, I just relentlessly show them my charts to the point they're, you know, you know, ad nauseam.

[Unknown Speaker]

Did they.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

I think I've had some impact. I think now, now they all know we're spending about $7 trillion.

[Clay Travis]

To the people who vote for you in Wisconsin, do you think that they really want you to tackle this problem or does everyone just want to say, tackle it, but don't touch anything that I like? That's the case.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Clay Travis]

We can't fix anything.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

I've got some really solid considerators come into my office and see. Yeah, but this is really, this isn't really spending. This is an investment. So that's our problem. Everybody loves the free federal money, right. They never look at their spending, you know, on their issue is the problem. It's the other guy's spending. Okay. And there's, there's not a real constituency. There's not public pressure to get this under control again, I would have thought again. I sprang out the Tea Party movement. I literally did parades in 2010 going, this a fight for freedom. We're mortgaging our children's future. It's wrong, it's immoral, it's gotta stop. That was my campaign pledge, but it hasn't blown up in our face. I will say this, though. We haven't hit an acute debt crisis. We've been living with a chronic debt crisis now for decades. It's called the devaluation of the dollar. I laid out these pre pandemic spending options. Clinton in 98, a dollar you held in 1998 is worth 51 cents.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's a crazy stat. I think for most people out there. Basically you've lost half the value of the dollar. And to a certain extent, cryptocurrency every feels it in that arena since 2019.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

That dollar is now worth 80 cents. So again, that's permanent damage being done. That's the silent tax of inflation. That's how we are managing this right now. Why it hasn't blown up in our face. But again, I would consider that a chronic debt crisis. What we're trying to avoid is an acute one where all of a sudden you have failure of bond auctions and we can't borrow money. And now all of a sudden over the next 10 years, CBO, we're going to spend $14 trillion on interest. The 89 trillion will spend 14 is on interest.

[Unknown Speaker]

I would submit that a lot of people are feeling it because mortgage rates have just not come back down. Right. If you're out there listening to us right now, 30 year mortgage rates around 7%. If you were fortunate enough to lock in a two and a half or three, you're never moving for the rest of your life. I mean there's a lot of people out there that are just and it's completely flummox the housing market because people should be moving, they have new kids, they got bigger families or their kids are going off to college, leaving the house and they're not going to sell because you got a two and a half or eight or you got a three as opposed to guys and gals out there right now getting married. They're looking around 7% interest is historically may not be high, but compared to the two and a half and how quickly it went up, I don't know that we've ever seen anything like it.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

And again, that's part of the chronic debt crisis.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, okay, that's right.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Right now, according to CBO, we'll be paying about 3.4% interest on our debt over the next 10 years. But the average 50 year average for the interest rate we paid in debt is over 5%. So if you start every, every percent that you increase, that adds, you know, $370 billion to our debt this year. Yeah, okay, so that's a massive amount. It's crowding out other Spending. And again, if you hit a debt crisis where now creditors just say we're not going to loan you money even at a high interest rate, you're going to spend, you're going to have to service that debt. We're going to have to roll over $9 trillion over national debt this year. Nine trillion of the 37 trillion we've got to refinance.

[Clay Travis]

Senator, you're bumming me out a little. Bumming me out.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

I'm not the most. I'm not the most, but I will.

[Unknown Speaker]

I will say so negative. Let me say this. If you're not able to see him on video, you do have a sort of a happy warrior visage face wise. Because otherwise I think you probably would be so dour that everybody being with.

[Clay Travis]

His charge, he's a little Captain Womp Womp right now. So let's just take a moment here.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

By the way, that's what, that's why I agree with President Trump when he said, Ron, you're so negative. Yeah, I know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[Clay Travis]

Trump's. I'm trying to make up like Ron, you're wamp whomping all over the place. Ron, you're making me sad. But what about AI growth and the brilliance of the American economy starting to at least on its own, basically not entirely grow out of this because the numbers don't support that, but at least make it more sustainable longer term. Do you, you know, is technology going to save us? Senator Johnson?

[Senator Ron Johnson]

So I think possibly, you know, there's a great story. Milton Friedman was in China and they were building this big canal and everybody had shovels and they said, why aren't you using like equipment? He said, well, this is a jobs program. At what point Milton Friedman said, well, why don't you give them spoons?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

So no. Productivity can make massive progress and AI has got, I mean, do we care about our passion that much if we.

[Clay Travis]

Robot servants doing all of our cooking and cleaning and everything for us? I will say I've seen the Jetsons.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Be very cautious of AI. I learned that as I'm putting my report together, I use AI a lot and it's got great tool. But as my chief of staff said, it is often confidently wrong. And I found that out repeatedly in this process.

[Unknown Speaker]

By the way, being confidently wrong is kind of the business you're in. Well, not used, but. Yeah, but politicians in general are not coffee today. Politicians in general are not known for lacking confidence in being wrong. Especially as you well know, everything Covid that all this spiraled out of. So yeah, Buck asked the question. I think this is the big picture. Maybe question we can finish with you on. And we appreciate all the time and we know there's tons of people out there that have wanted us to do a deep dive on this. The growth rate. The number one most important thing that could happen to make everybody the rising tide, lift all boats is our economy has to get growing faster. You've run the numbers. We haven't had 4% growth since the 1950s. Now maybe Buck's right and I'd love for the AI revolution to lead to exponential growth.

[Clay Travis]

This is a long bomb into the end zone theory, but maybe somebody catches it now.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's a very positive like way of looking at things. And there are a lot of CEOs, including some of the ones that we interact with that are incredibly optimistic on this. But I do think history matters here. When's the last time we had 4% growth in this country? In the 60s, 1960s.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Yeah. Then we had 3% growth in the 70s, 80s, 90s, the dot com revolution. But since the turn of the century, we've averaged 2.2% growth. And Reinhart and Rogoff wrote about this. This time is different. It's not once you reach a certain threshold of debt to GDP level. First of all, government is sucking down all that money out of the private sector. Risk takers can't borrow money. So that has a negative impact on growth. Again, AI may be a spark that could overcome all this, but we could be in that death spiral right now. That's my concern.

[Clay Travis]

We're like, all right, great talk.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

I said debt. I said debt.

[Clay Travis]

Spiral.

[Unknown Speaker]

I thought he said I don't, I.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Don'T, I don't see it well enough. No.

[Clay Travis]

Well, I guess again, Mr. Rogers hitting the button.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

We're seeing what the bond markets are doing. We can't control long term interest rates. That's going to be up to our creditors. If they look at us as not serious about this. I think the bond markets has been telling that they're going to demand a higher and higher interest rate to refinance that $9 trillion. That takes more of the money out of what we can spend on other things as well. So again, this is. We're not in a good position right now. We're simply not. I mean, that's my whole point is, so let's address this problem. The first step in solving any problem is admitting you have one. And most people aren't. They're not even aware of it. They're Just whistling by the graveyard.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm picturing you right now when your kids come home from college and you've got the credit card bill in front of you and it's like dad is just sitting down in front of you and he's like, I just, you know, you got the daughter, you got the son. They don't understand basic economics. And you're just like, I don't even understand how you could have spent this money. That's the way I feel like you're looking at the federal government on a day to day basis. You're like, dad, who's looking at this and just saying this?

[Clay Travis]

None of this.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

A Jet Ski. Yeah, I've said this one at the bar. It's easy to be the parent. Says, hey, we're going to go to Disney World. It's really hard to be the parent. Says, but we can't afford it, you know, we're already in.

[Clay Travis]

Well, the other thing, Senator, now I'm going to really bum everybody out. Everybody thinks they're the parent that says we can't afford Disney World this year. But everybody wants to say my kids are going to Disney World. So that's the tough part of American politics. Senator Johnson of Wisconsin, always a pleasure to hang with you, sir. Thanks for being here with us in studio.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

Thanks for having me in.

[Unknown Speaker]

Look, I want to tell you, Rapid Radios makes modern day. Well, I'm still laughing about the dad analogy. That is perfect for you. You should, when you run for reelection next time you should just do ads where you, you pretend to be dad looking at the, at the expenses of your kids because I think everybody in Wisconsin is going to recognize with that. But Rapid Radios, they're convenient, they're easy to use, no setup required. Pull them out of the box, push a button and it's a one touch connection. Perfect for busy families. Rapid Radios also great for young kids. I've got a 10 year old, we don't want to give him a cell phone but he's running around in the neighborhood. He's playing wiffle ball with his friends, he's playing football with his friends. We can stay in touch with him also. Five days without needing a charge. They are super easy. They're reliable. If you got thunderstorms, if you got hurricane season, which we're in now. If you just want to protect your family with having an additional way to be able to get communication. These guys are amazing. Check them out. Rapidradios.com 60% off free UPS shipping from Michigan. Use code radio for an extra 5% off. That's Rapidradios.com code radio great asset to make your family a little bit safer than they otherwise would be. Trust them Nationwide radio communication device to keep tabs on everybody. Rapidradios.com code radio.

[Buck Sexton]

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[J.R. Martinez]

The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration in the United States. Recipients have done the improbable, showing immense bravery and sacrifice in the name of something much bigger than themselves.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

This medal is for the men who went down that day. It's for the families of those who didn't make it.

[J.R. Martinez]

I'm J.R. martinez. I'm a U.S. army veteran myself and I'm honored to tell you the stories of these heroes on the new season of Medal of Stories of Courage from Pushkin Industries and I heart Potty cast from Robert Blake, the first black sailor to be awarded the medal to Daniel Daly, one of only 19 people to have received the Medal of Honor twice. These are stories about people who have distinguished themselves by acts of valor going above and beyond the call of duty. You'll hear about what they did, what it meant, and what their stories tell us about the nature of courage and sacrifice.

[Clay Travis]

Sacrifice.

[J.R. Martinez]

Listen to Medal of Honor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Clay Travis]

Hope you all enjoyed that. Walk into the financial abyss with Senator Ron Johnson. He's like, guys, the whole country may collapse, but it's gonna be okay. No, it's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. Look, the big beautiful bill. It's big. It's beautiful. I'm, we're, we're looking forward to talking to more folks here in D.C. about all the great things. And everyone admits there are many, many great things in it. And I think that passing it is, I think it's the right move. And I think that there's going to be a lot that this administration is going to be putting in motion that should be or, or can't fully be accounted for right now, Clay, that will affect the revenue and debt side of things very positively. For example, the money that's coming in, the hundreds of billions that's going to come in on tariffs and the admission recently that Chinese producers are actually going to have to eat a lot of the costs of the tariffs. These are all things that are going into the pot, things that are going to be on the, on the positive side of a ledger for us financially. And, you know, I, I did mention that you had had your coffee, by the way. Crocketcoffee.com we gotta make sure that we keep that with us on the road at all times. Go to crockettcoffee.com it's absolutely delicious stuff. It's fantastic. 10% of the profits goes to Tunnel the Towers Foundation. I've been introducing people to our mushroom blend, which they think is very interesting. It's very, it's unique, it's earthy. If you've never tried it, it's worth a shot. But for your daily coffee needs, CrockatCoffee.com is where you want to go.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, it's fantastic. Use code book. You get an autographed copy of the most recent book. You've got one coming out in January. I've got one coming out in November. So there's going to be some new books that are coming out there that we actually wrote.

[Clay Travis]

And we are going to be going down. We're just figuring out when, but we're going to be heading down to San Antonio in the summer, which is when I hear is the best time to go to work on your heat tolerance.

[Unknown Speaker]

When it's 180 degrees. We're going to come down and visit the Alamo, obviously naming Crockett Coffee after one of the Alamo legends. I haven't been since I was a kid. But they are excited to host the Alamo.

[Clay Travis]

No, I've never been to the Alamo. And I remember the first time I ever even heard of the Alamo was the Peewee Herman movie.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes, we were talking about that a little bit last night. I think you'll be surprised by how the Alamo is just right in the middle of San Antonio. Doesn't have a ton of space that it takes up. But I understand they're doing some remarkable historical renovations and building out the guest visitation areas and everything else. And it's supposed to be pretty extraordinary. So we're looking forward to to getting down there and being able to visit. By the way, a lot of you have wanted us to dive into the so called big beautiful bill and actually talk about the math. Here's what I will say. You don't have to agree with Senator Ron Johnson, you don't have to agree with Rand Paul. I do think there are relatively few guys that have spent more time actually looking at where the money that we spend goes. And we know Elon did this with Doge, but Senator Ron Johnson has left now. But he has a big massive binder that he's got that he's just tracking where the money is going, how it's being spent. And I do think the argument that Democrats have successfully embedded the, to a large extent, the growth of government that they took advantage of during COVID and just made it the baseline going forward. I think he makes a strong argument that we should go back like we did after World War II and reassess the growth of the overall government.

[Clay Travis]

And the amount of money that is being spent that is inefficient, but also that is going to welfare and even within that going to welfare payments, whether through the Medicaid system or others to illegal immigrants. It is vast. In New York we have a pretty good sense of the numbers because the New York City budget was really groaning under the pressure of it of 14 billion over a couple years. That's just the money for emergency immigrant, you know, illegal immigrant money, if you will. Clay. In a place like California, the Medi Cal program, the amount of federal dollars that get funneled into that. We had Senator Johnson talking about just Medicaid generally, but Medicaid for illegals. You start to see where this money is going. And the more you follow the money, everybody, I think the more outrageous it becomes and how of this money is being squandered or spent on things that just frankly shouldn't be spent on to people who shouldn't be getting the money. And this is all of our money. And there needs to be a much more serious look at this. And you know, the way the Democrats have set this up, it's just harder and harder to trace the source that is on purpose, that is meant to be. And this is why, you know, I'm in Florida and I've lived in New York, Clay. Florida, 21 million people, New York, 19 million people. Florida's budget, basically 100 billion. New York's budget effectively 200.

[Unknown Speaker]

Which one runs more efficiently too?

[Clay Travis]

Yeah, so much more efficiently. So you have more population and half the budget in a state with better governance. Governance across the board, in my opinion. Florida versus New York. And, and this is true of everybody across the country. Your federal dollars are going to subsidize Blue State madness. So we'll get into more of this coming up here.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, also the Simone Simone Biles has apologized. Buck.

[Buck Sexton]

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[J.R. Martinez]

The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration in the United States. Recipients have done the improbable, the unexpected, showing immense bravery and sacrifice in the name of something much bigger than themselves.

[Senator Ron Johnson]

This medal is for the men who went down that day on Medal of.

[J.R. Martinez]

Honor Stories of Courage. You'll hear about these heroes and what their stories tell us about the nature of bravery. Listen to Medal of Honor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Clay Travis]

This is an iHeart podcast.