Hour 3 - CIA Officer Mike Baker

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show — Hour 3 with CIA Officer Mike Baker

Date: November 21, 2025
Podcast: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Host: iHeartPodcasts
Guests: Mike Baker (former CIA officer, host of the Presidential Daily Brief podcast), Tudor Dixon (podcaster, former Michigan gubernatorial candidate)

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Overview

This hour dives into high-stakes national and international politics, intelligence operations, and evolving American culture. Buck and Clay are joined by former CIA officer Mike Baker for an in-depth analysis of U.S. actions against Venezuela and the war on drugs, plus a discussion about masculinity and the current state of the CIA. Tudor Dixon later joins to discuss Michelle Obama's public image, Gretchen Whitmer's presidential ambitions, and changing attitudes among young American women about marriage.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. U.S. Military Actions in Venezuela & the Real "War on Drugs"

Guest: Mike Baker, ex-CIA
Time: [03:57]–[13:08]

• Drug War Escalation:

  • The U.S. is conducting military strikes against drug traffickers from Venezuela in the Caribbean, with over 80 individuals killed so far.
  • Mike Baker, drawing from his experience, notes, "We always called it a war on drugs. And it never really was... Now we're calling it a war on drugs and it is actually looking like a war on drugs." [05:05]

• Strategic Pressure on Venezuela:

  • Baker argues the outsized U.S. military build-up is likely designed to pressure President Nicolás Maduro by threatening the elite around him.
  • "Probably putting pressure on those around him to convince someone... that it's time for Maduro to go." [05:45]

• Risks of Regime Change:

  • Buck warns of regime change pitfalls, referencing past failures. Baker counters:
    • "This is not Libya, it's not Iraq... You've got a legitimate opposition government... I don't think a transition necessarily would be this ugly scene." [07:50]

• Geopolitical Players:

  • Other nations—Russia, China, Iran, and Cuba—have strategic interests in Venezuela, complicating U.S. involvement.
    • "It's not just Venezuela and us staring each other down. Russia and China, certainly Cuba, they've all got a stake in this." [10:16]

• CIA Myths:

  • Baker addresses CIA conspiracy theories:
    • "Either the CIA is a bunch of Machiavellian geniuses... or they're completely useless and incompetent. They can't have both." [11:25]

Notable Quotes:

• “Look at that. It's a Black Friday sale.” — Mike Baker joking about the opportunity to destabilize both Venezuela and Cuba [09:57]
• "We never really had a chance to win it. You could destroy the facility... and it never really impacted anything." — Mike Baker, on the drug war’s futility [05:25]

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2. Is the CIA Still “Badass”? Masculinity and Mission in American Institutions

Time: [13:08]–[16:56]

• Culture Shift in Intelligence & Military:

  • Buck asks if the CIA can recapture its "badass" reputation and whether American institutions are failing to connect with young men due to focus on "toxic masculinity" and identity politics.
  • Mike Baker responds, "The agency is a risk-taking organization, so damn it, we should act like one... We kind of disappeared down the same rabbit hole that a lot of bureaucracies did... imagining somehow we were like a corporate culture. And that's not helpful." [14:17–15:41]

• Agency Morale & Risk Tolerance:

  • Bureaucratic over-correction means less risk-taking.
  • "If you get your ass kicked up on Capitol Hill... then you get a period of time where management doesn't want to put their head over the wall... and so you don't take the risks." [16:00]

Notable Quotes:

• “We need to be focused... the agency is a risk-taking organization, so damn it, we should act like one.” — Mike Baker [14:17]
• “Go in there and crack some skulls and kick some asses and make spies great again.” — Buck Sexton, encouraging Mike to reform the CIA [16:38]

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3. U.S. Planning for Direct Action Against Mexican Drug Cartels

Host: Buck Sexton
Time: [21:24]–[25:25]

• A New Frontier in the Drug War:
  • Buck discusses reports of U.S. special operations preparing for potential action inside Mexico against drug cartels.
  • Early training and planning stages for a possible JSOC/CIA Title 50 paramilitary mission.
  • Draws comparisons to "Clear and Present Danger" and suggests public support is strong for military solutions to fentanyl trafficking.

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4. Michelle Obama’s "Shame America" Tour & Future Political Ambitions

With: Tudor Dixon
Time: [26:35]–[30:25]

• Public Image and Real Message:

  • Tudor critiques Michelle Obama’s media/book tour as negative and focused on grievances, despite her privileged status.
  • “It’s just like a shame America tour... She trashes white people, she says that white people have been forcing her to straighten her hair... She wants us to feel guilty for everything she has had to suffer in the public eye.” — Tudor Dixon [26:35]

• Speculation Over 2028 Presidential Run:

  • Dixon shares insights from Stacey Washington, suggesting Michelle Obama may have larger political ambitions, though officially she denies it.

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5. Gretchen Whitmer’s Presidential Ambitions

With: Tudor Dixon
Time: [30:25]–[34:29]

• Building a National Campaign:

  • Reports that Whitmer's former campaign staff is moving to a new entity, raising questions about a looming presidential run.
  • “She’s been done with Michigan since before she ran for office the second time... She is using her position as governor to pretend she can be president.” — Tudor Dixon [31:08]

• Viability in the Democratic Primary:

  • Dixon is skeptical, noting Whitmer is “not good on her feet and she doesn’t really have anything to back up what she’s saying, because she hasn’t accomplished anything.” [33:31]

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6. Changing Attitudes on Marriage Among Young Women

With: Tudor Dixon
Time: [34:29]–[36:49]

• Marriage Not a Priority:
  • Buck shares that only 60% of young women (vs more young men) now want to get married, per a new Pew poll.
  • Dixon attributes the shift largely to cultural messaging promoting independence, though she hopes faith-based revivals might reverse the trend:
    • “There is this fantastic life out there for you alone... I do think that there is a culture shift where young men are not happy with the idea of being alone.” [35:23]

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7. Pop Culture and Gender Norms: Taylor Swift and the “Trad Wife” Backlash

Time: [43:33]–[44:18]

• Taylor Swift Criticized for “Traditional” Aspirations:
  • The group discusses how even Taylor Swift faces backlash for expressing a desire for marriage and family—considered now “right-wing coded.”
  • "What does it tell you... where believing that men and women are different and can't become each other is right wing coded?” — Buck Sexton [44:18]
  • Producers point out Swift is being called “racist” just for hoping her kids look like her partner as a term of endearment.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On War on Drugs:
  • “Now we’re calling it a war on drugs and it is actually looking like a war on drugs.” — Mike Baker [05:05]
• On Geopolitical Stakes:
  • “This is not happening in a bubble... Russia and China, certainly Cuba, they’ve all got a stake in this.” — Mike Baker [10:16]
• On CIA Culture:
  • “We kind of disappeared down the same rabbit hole that a lot of bureaucracies did... imagining somehow we were like a corporate culture. And that’s not helpful.” — Mike Baker [15:00]
• On Michelle Obama’s Narrative:
  • “It’s just like a shame America tour... She wants us to feel guilty for everything she has had to suffer in the public eye.” — Tudor Dixon [26:35]
• On Young Women and Marriage:
  • “There is this fantastic life out there for you alone... I do think that there’s a culture shift where young men are not happy with the idea of being alone.” — Tudor Dixon [35:23]
• On Culture Wars:
  • “Believing that men and women are different and can’t become each other is right wing coded? Believing that a man and a woman just getting married… has some right wing flavor to it?” — Buck Sexton [44:18]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Mike Baker on Venezuela & Drug War: [03:54]–[13:08]
• CIA, Masculinity, and Institutional Culture: [13:08]–[16:56]
• Military Action Against Mexican Cartels: [21:24]–[25:25]
• Michelle Obama Book Tour Critique: [26:35]–[30:25]
• Gretchen Whitmer’s Presidential Plans: [30:25]–[34:29]
• Young Women and Marriage Attitudes: [34:29]–[36:49]
• Taylor Swift & Trad Wife Discussion: [43:33]–[44:18]

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Tone and Takeaways

The episode is fast-paced, laced with humor, and unsparing in its criticism of bureaucratic trends, political hypocrisy, and cultural confusion. Mike Baker’s stories and insights from inside the intelligence world lend gravitas, while Buck, Clay, and Tudor keep the conversation grounded in current political and cultural flashpoints, ranging from geopolitical intrigue to celebrity culture and generational change. The show maintains its trademark mix of candid opinion, irreverence, and pointed analysis—making complex global and social developments both understandable and engaging for listeners.

Transcript

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[Clay Travis]

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[Clay Travis]

Hey, I'm Clay Travis.

[Buck Sexton]

And I'm Buck Sexton. You know what we're thankful for this year, all of you?

[Clay Travis]

That's right. We have the best radio audience in the country, hands down.

[Buck Sexton]

Sending a big warm and happy Thanksgiving from the Clay and Buck Show. All right, everybody, third hour of the Clay and Buck show on this lovely Friday. Thank you for being with us. And we're joined by our friend Mike Baker. He is my CIA brother from another mother. He is also the host of the PDB podcast, Presidential Daily Brief Podcast, which is doing huge numbers. Doing great stuff there. Mr. Baker, always a pleasure to have you here.

[Mike Baker]

Thanks, man. Really appreciate it.

[Buck Sexton]

What's going to happen in Venezuela? Just tell me. You want to skip to the end of the movie, like, what's going on here? We're blowing up these boats in the Caribbean, the narco boats. Venezuela is a narco state, which I think needs to be more part of the conversation. The leadership there makes a lot of money off of the export of fentanyl out of their country and into our country also. Cocaine, heroin, other stuff.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah.

[Buck Sexton]

What are we doing with these strikes, you think? And where is this going?

[Mike Baker]

Yeah, it is fascinating. Look, it's a little bit, obviously not, pun intended, uncharted waters. And what are we up to above? 80 individuals killed so far in these strikes. I think setting aside, you know, the legalities of all of this and just looking at it from an operational perspective, you know, it comes down to. Okay, well, you know, if you believe that the intelligence is credible and that, you know, the targeting is well thought through. Do I have a problem with going after narco traffickers? No, I don't. We spent decades, right. I was involved in the drug wars while I was with the agency, spent a lot of time in counter narcotics operations in parts of the world. And they always called it a war on drugs. And it never really was right in the sense that we never really had a chance to win it. You could destroy the facility, you know, a cooking house, a warehouse Somewhere interdict a large shipment and it never really impacted anything. Didn't affect the street price, didn't affect how much gear was stored in warehouses around the world, in part because, yeah, you've got the demand issue and we've never been good at dealing with the demand side of things. So now we're calling it a war on drugs and it is actually looking like a war on drugs. The other part of this question is what are we doing with Venezuela? And I have to assume that the massive military buildup in the Caribbean, which is outsized for a counternarcotics effort or war on drugs, is all about putting pressure on Maduro and more importantly, probably putting pressure on those around him to convince someone or a group of individuals there or advisors or military senior officers, whomever that it's time for Maduro to go. So I have to assume that that is if we're operating on two tracks here.

[Buck Sexton]

Now, I don't know if you saw this part of it, Mike, but to me I was concerned, ok, do we want to be. Even if the side effect of, let's say US operations against the cartels is the toppling of Maduro regime, people worry about that regime change situation. We've seen that go badly elsewhere. But then I saw Maduro singing the John Lennon song Imagine and I was like, this guy's got to go because that's the worst song in the world.

[Mike Baker]

Exactly. Not only that, it was the worst rendition of the worst song ever.

[Buck Sexton]

True.

[Mike Baker]

So, you know, yeah, I think, look, it is. Well, maybe I'll be proven wrong on this. It is highly unlikely that we're going into Venezuela militarily to in a direct conflict with the Venezuelan government and military to oust Maduro. Right. So I think the hope for scenario again is this pressure campaign. He probably won't leave on his own volition, but others may convince him that that's the only thing he can do. So you look at that and you think, okay, fine, you're right, regime change is a very ugly thing. But this is not, this is not Libya, it's not Iraq in the sense that I'm not calling for regime change. What I'm saying is they're not apples to apples, right? So you've got a legitimate opposition government that's sitting out there, Maduro, and you know everybody, even people on the left, we're going to have to look at this and go, yeah, the evidence shows that Maduro stole that election outright. So you do have an opposition in waiting. Now whether, you know, there's a Sense of survivability on the part of the senior military there in Venezuela. And they say, okay, now it's time to work with the opposition because we want to save our own asses. I don't think a transition necessarily would be sort of this ugly scene that we've seen elsewhere played out sometimes when you get regime change and then it just all head south.

[Buck Sexton]

So we've got this Operation Southern Spear is the name of it. A buildup of American naval forces in the Caribbean, the largest since the Cuban missile crisis and the blockade of Cuba in 1962. The Gerald Ford aircraft carrier is now in the Caribbean, which I think is our biggest carrier. It is, it is 15,000 troops in the region. You know, Marco Rubio has a. Well, I was going to say he has a large role. He has many large roles actually in this administration. He has more than one role, but he is a, I think a dedicated anti communist in the best sense. And that includes the regime in Cuba. If we do get a Maduro, let's say the Maduro regime instead. Toppling makes it sound like we did it. What if it implodes? What if it crumbles and is no longer in a position or no longer willing to subsidize the Cuban government with a whole lot of oil, without which Cuba is basically screwed. Feels like there's a chance for a two for one here, Mike.

[Mike Baker]

Look at that. It's a Black Friday sale.

[Tudor Dixon]

Yeah.

[Mike Baker]

You know, it could happen. And you, you're absolutely right to point out this is not happening in a bubble, meaning it's not just Venezuela and us, you know, staring each other down. Russia and China, certainly Cuba, they've all got a stake in this.

[Buck Sexton]

Right?

[Mike Baker]

And even Iran, right? Maduro's been turning to Iran even for hope, for support, trying to say, look at this, what the imperialist dogs are doing to me. So there are other people at play here. When folks talk about the US is doing this simply for Venezuela's resources. Okay? That's that old trope that we always get, right? They're moving into Iraq because of their oil. They, they're doing. Oh, God, you know, you hear that one more time. I mean, I've had conversations recently where, you know, some, a couple of people, very intelligent people, but they were completely convinced that this, you know, cartel of the suns that keeps getting referred to as the kind of the pseudo organization that exists as anarcho trafficking network, you know, sponsored by the state in Venezuela, that was a product of creation from the CIA. Right. I had to listen to a conversation about that. And again, from smart people. But you get these things that get rolled out, and you look and you think, okay, is there even any reason to respond to that? Right. Because you just give it credibility. So. But I do.

[Buck Sexton]

Well, I always. I always have to point out to people, Mike, that, you know, people who get into this lane, they can either. Either the CIA is a bunch of Machiavellian geniuses that can do anything anywhere in the world whenever they want, or they're completely useless and incompetent. They can't have both, though, right? Like, you can't. They can't be super geniuses who could do anything anywhere, and they're totally worthless. Because I've heard that from people. I'm like, I think those things go in contradiction.

[Mike Baker]

Yeah, no, they do. They do. And. But usually what I hear is that, yeah, somehow the CIA is responsible for everything. And, you know, but it's always. And then, you know, typically followed backfilled by the idea that, you know, the US should not ever do anything ever. You know, overseas. We have no right to do anything anywhere. And, you know, somehow, then we would just have this peaceful community of nations. And, you know, anyhow, I don't want to disappear down that rabbit hole, but I guess I was about to. But, yeah, the problem with Venezuela is that you do have other players there. The Russians have a big stake in this. They don't want to see this turn. You know, they certainly would at this time when they're losing influence in a variety of ways. You know, the idea that they would lose an important foothold in our backyard doesn't sit well with Putin. China's been playing out there purely for their own self interest in terms of getting their hands on the resources like we get accused of. But nobody ever mentions that about the Chinese regime. So there's a lot at play here. I just don't think that what we're looking at. And again, maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I don't believe the White House strategy is going to be to put the military into Venezuela for a direct conflict with the government and the military.

[Buck Sexton]

One thing I'm gonna do, a little bit of a pivot here, Mike. You. For anyone who's seen you on Fox or your podcast, the PDB podcast, which is fantastic, and people should go check it out. You look like what I think a lot of people think a secret agent man looks like. And you got the square jaw, all American, you know, you're a manly man. And the American young men, or rather American young men, are increasingly wanting people or they want the society around them to stop making them feel like being a man is a bad thing. The Democrats are unable to reach these young men because of the way they've talked about toxic masculinity and all this stuff. Pete Hegseth has gone into the Pentagon and has really just refocused on war fighting and also, let's be honest, a kind of unabashed masculinity in the way we fight wars. Is there a way to make the CIA badass or at least less, you know, less sort of smarmy bureaucrat than it is right now? I'm wondering how you feel about that, because we could use some help.

[Mike Baker]

Yeah, no, you know, well, I mean, look, you know this as well, you know better than I do that the agency is a real mix, right? You've got all sorts of folks, you know, banging around the corridors there and in our places overseas. And you know, look, it takes all types. But I agree 100% with the idea that we need to, we need to be focused. The agency is a risk taking organization, so damn it, we should act like one. And we, we don't need. Look, the directorate of administration plays an important role. It's a very important directorate. Right. I know a lot of good people there. They keep the trains running on time. They do a lot of things. But, you know, we kind of disappeared down the same rabbit hole that a lot of bureaucracies did over the past handful of years, imagining somehow that we were like a corporate culture. And that's not helpful to a risk taking organization. So, yeah, I'm trying to be a little bit delicate. I have a lot of good friends over there, and I know some are on kind of both sides of this issue, and I get it. But I would like to see a return to a real risk taking mindset. You know what it's like, right? I mean, we were there.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah. It's critical for morale. I mean, you know, if you can make, if you can make all this money, you know, if you can come out of school and make, you know, 200 or 300 grand at Google, like, why go work at Langley if you're going to be like, lectured and hounded over DEI nonsense and like trans Identification day all the time? I mean, that's what I hear from the people over there.

[Mike Baker]

Yeah, yeah, you got to move that out. Right? And again, I keep going back to the same thing. Look, we, we saw cycles, right? If you, if, if you get your ass kicked up on Capitol Hill because an operation or a direction that you were going in goes bad. Then suddenly you know that risk versus gain calculation recalibrates. And then you get a period of time where management doesn't want to put their head over the wall because they don't want to get their ass kicked again up on Capitol Hill. And so you don't take the risks. Right. And then eventually recalibrates because the world requires it. You know, some issue somewhere means you got to get back on track.

[Buck Sexton]

Well, basically, Mike, we're going to need you to be the Pete Hegseth of the CIA. But that's a whole other. We'll have you back for that conversation. But you got to go in there and crack some skulls and kick some asses and make make spies great again. But Mike Baker, everybody go check to.

[Mike Baker]

That effect, write a note to that effect, send it to the White House, and I'd be happy to pack my role.

[Buck Sexton]

I'll let them know, man. Yeah, I'll let them know. Mike Baker, everybody go check out the PDB podcast. Mike. Mike, thank you so much.

[Mike Baker]

Of course, man. Take care.

[Buck Sexton]

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[Buck Sexton]

The shelves are stocked with brilliant Clay, Travis and Buck Sexton. Back in mere moments. All right, welcome back in here to Clay and Buck. Really good conversation there with Mike Baker, who's a great guy. I've known Mike a long time and was really. He was very kind. He met with me when I was leaving the CIA finally. And I was. I basically went to him. I'm like, so we allowed to have ideas in public. Are we allowed to do that? And Mike was like, yeah, just don't say anything classified. Don't be dumb. And I said, all right. So that was very helpful going forward. And I have to tell you the one thing that when we look at the possibility of toppling the government of Venezuela, there's some considerable upside. If this were to happen, there is a leadership that could take over. That's already in place Venezuela. And this isn't like we're bringing somebody, you know, out of retirement who lives in the suburbs of D.C. to take over in Venezuela, as, you know, el presidente or something. And it would put tremendous pressure on Cuba as well. But when we start to talk about taking on the cartels and a more military approach to things, I wonder what it would be like if we really went after the drug cartels in Mexico. And I know some of you want that. This has been certainly discussed and the Trump administration, as of. Let me see here, this was just a couple of weeks ago. They've begun detailed planning for a new mission to send American troops and intelligence officers into Mexico to target drug cartels. This is, according to NBC News, early stages of training for the potential mission, which would include ground operations inside Mexico, have begun. Deployment to Mexico is not imminent, but they're basically saying that this would be a JSOC Joint Special Operations Command mission. So it would be under the US intelligence community aegis title 50 status. So this is like getting into CIA black ops kind of stuff and going after the cartels. This is very much like I always talk about Tom Clancy's clear and present danger. But this is taking the fight to the cartels. And I, I think they're going to do this. I don't know how extensive it will be and I don't know how successful immediately it will be, but I do think that they are going to take a certainly a paramilitary approach to the drug cartels. And I think that the American people are broadly supportive of efforts to do whatever is necessary to stop the mass importation of fentanyl into this country. We often talk about all the deaths from fentanyl, which is heartbreaking and horrific. There's also just the societal destruction from it. For every person who dies of a fentanyl overdose, there are people who are left behind in that family and there are devastated communities. There's, it's just so much loss. So, but this anti narco war, the war on drugs, may take us to a fight inside of Mexico here pretty soon. From my time in D.C. to the media world today, I've seen how quickly political power turns into financial power. And the insiders have always had a head start until now. So why I started Money and Power to give everyday Americans the kind of access to fast moving intelligence that a lot of the big power players keep behind closed doors. My team and I monitor DC like a radar screen. Every policy, leak, spending bill, executive order. Because one can chain a trigger reaction or trigger a chain reaction in the markets worth billions. When something big is coming before the press release, before the headlines, you'll get the alert. We translate what's happening in Washington into clear, actionable research you can use to get ahead. Go join this is a newsletter. You got to sign up for it. It's a small fee attached to it, but it's great information, really cool stuff. And there's even a model portfolio we have for investments. Go to join Buck.com join money and power. My newsletter. 82% off the regular price. Go to join Buck.com paid for by Paradigm Press. Hey everybody, it's Buck Sexton. From all of us in the Clay and Buck family, Happy Thanksgiving. Giving. Us out here on our third hour of this Friday on the Clay and Buck show, we have Tutor Dixon in the mix. The Tutor Dixon podcast on the Clay and Buck Network is fantastic and so many of you are listening and it's growing every month. And thank you for that tutor. Let's start with this. What has the Michelle Obama book tour been all about? Media tour that she's been doing because the only sound bites that I or, you know, video clips that I've seen of this truly make her seem less likable to a lot of people. What's. What is going on here?

[Tudor Dixon]

Oh, I know she's on this tour where she is really. It's just like a shame America tour or it feels very much like a shame America tour because she talks about how they. Being the first lady is not like this great privilege. And she just kind of rolls her eyes when she's asked about being first lady and being an example for women. And she, she trashes white people. She says that white people have been, you know, forcing her to straighten her hair, which I thought, I don't remember anybody talking about her hair. I guess once she was. She went on vacation and she had her hair braided and people said something about her hair. And I think this is not unique to the first lady. Anybody who is in the public eye gets constant criticism. She is not that special. But she wants us to feel guilty for everything she has had to suffer in the public eye.

[Buck Sexton]

Well, for somebody who is as generally certainly by the left wing media, celebrated and really the biggest like corporate entities and everything else, I mean, Michelle Obama is, I don't know, she's probably worth, with Barack, $100 million plus. I mean, they've done incredibly well financially and the Obama dynasty certainly lives on in the media. And yet she seems unhappy with America, with the country that was made her first lady. She lived in the White House for eight years. She's incredibly rich. She hangs out with like Richard Branson and the, you know, the biggest names and well, just the biggest names in the world. And yet she has a lot of complaints.

[Tudor Dixon]

She's incredibly rich. She can walk in anywhere. She is respectful. Like you said, she can spend time with the biggest Hollywood celebrities. It's not even like a Republican, you know, Republicans, you're still shunned by half of the country, is a Democrat, you're welcomed everywhere. But she is so mad about I don't something. And I wish somebody in these interviews, when she has, you know, the other rich woman sitting across from her complaining about how bad life is for women, I wish one of them would say to her, was the, was the juice, the juice worth the squeeze? You know, like, was it worth it being first lady? You obviously hated it. It was so terrible for you. Was it worth it? Is your life now worth it? Because I'd love to hear what she has to say. You know, she's had that podcast where she has negatively talked about Barack, which would seemingly be humiliating if you were him. She has been disparaging to people that had been around them in the White House. But there's this weird twist now to what she's doing because she's complaining about having to dress up and having to have her hair and makeup done, and she talks about that in this tour that she's on. But she's very physically fit. She. She looks great. She does. Her hair is done, and she seems to be continuing to get her hair done. And she has a very. She always is dressed very nicely. And like I said, she looks like she's fresh and ready to do something next. And the question is, like, what is her plan? And I had Stacey Washington on the podcast. You've got to listen to it. Because she had a totally different take than what I would have thought when I was. When I was talking to her. She's like, I've never thought Michelle Obama was going to come back and do something major in the public eye, but there's been some gleamings of, like, what could the future Michelle Obama could be? And it's kind of terrifying. So you have to listen to what she says because she makes a good point and she sees things from a perspective that I think I wouldn't have seen it. So I would say everyone should listen to the Tudor Dixon podcast and. And check out what she had to say.

[Buck Sexton]

Okay, well, I was. I don't want to. I don't want to get ahead of or get in the way of. Of the podcast listening, but I'm certainly curious if you think that Michelle Obama is actually. She said she's not going to run, and I've said she's never going to run, but I'll leave it out there. I'll let people go listen to the podcast. But speaking of people running, you faced off against Gretchen Whitmer in the governor's race for Michigan. It's very, very sad, very sad that the people of Michigan were not able to get that done the right way. And Gretchen Whitmer still sits in office. It's a bummer for Michigan and for the rest of us, too. What can you tell us? So you understand the Whitmer machine quite well. Is she running for president? For sure, in the next cycle, which would start in basically a year.

[Tudor Dixon]

So it's really interesting that you ask, because just this week, the Detroit News came out with an article that is pointing out that she has a. An entity that raised 7, I think $7 million, somewhere around $7 million, and that almost her entire campaign staff from her gubernatorial run has moved over to this entity. And the question they're posing is, is this the ent. Going to run the presidential campaign. I have no doubt in my mind. I have never doubted for a second that Gretchen Whitmer is planning to run for president. It's not even like a second thought for me. It's so obvious she has never held a single political position, that she is not looking for the next political position that she will be in. And she's done with Michigan. She's been done with Michigan since before she ran for office the second time. And since she has, since she won in 22, she has spent so much time overseas, which is not to do anything good for Michigan. She uses the taxpayer money to go over there and say that she's trying to bring business here because the state of Michigan is dying. We have no business. Our education system is 44th in the nation. We have the highest energy cost. She's doing, she's brought no business from all these trips. I mean she's gone to Japan, she's gone to Spain, Spain, she's gone to Germany, she's gone to multiple different countries just in the last few years. And I promise you it is simply to say I've got foreign policy chops. I'm going to be able to be the leader of the free world because I've already been all over Europe and all over Asia and I'm ready to do this. She is using her position as governor to pretend she can be president. She hasn't done anything for the state of Michigan.

[Buck Sexton]

Do you think, put aside what I think you and I would agree without even discussing it would be the extremely unfortunate situation of Gretchen Whitmer actually being president. But do you think that she will be a formidable primary candidate among the field of Democrats should she run? Right. I mean it's one thing to run. Some people run cuz they want more speaking fees and book sales or whatever. Right. Do you think that she will, if she enters that field, be a top three contender pretty reliably?

[Tudor Dixon]

I think she is going to find out that once she's in a real primary because she's never really faced anyone in the state of Michigan that was serious. And once she's in a real primary against a Gavin Newsom, who actually he. I mean, I think the guy is a total snake, but he's a very good politician and slick talker. Gretchen Whitmer is not, she is not very good at off the cuff conversation. She's. She struggles in interviews. She's very similar to Kamala in that sense. She's not good on her feet and she doesn't really have anything to back up what she's saying, because she hasn't accomplished anything. So I think she's going to run. I don't think she wins. I don't think that she gets very far in the primary. I think she's kind of like a 1% support Kamala Harris because she just doesn't have that, that it factor when it comes to going to that level. She could get through Michigan. She's not going to get through that. She's not going to fool the country.

[Buck Sexton]

That's really interesting because I know people talk about her as a. I think I hear about her a lot more really, as a likely VP candidate once again than actually a presidential nominee for the Democrats. But we'll see how that plays out. And you faced off against her, so you certainly know what she brings to the table. I want to switch gears for a second. Earlier in the week, I talked on the show about the change in attitudes about young women, 12th graders, right? So basically, high school graduates. They're about, you know, they're. They're about to go out into the world. Maybe they're going to college, maybe they're going to do something else. And 60% of them, the latest pupil of women, less than men, by the way, less than young men, want to get married. You're a woman that we know. What do you think about what's going on here with young women? Like what? I know you got four kids, but how is it that young women are getting this kind of messaging?

[Tudor Dixon]

You know, I think. I really think that this is happening. I would say, actually just talking to someone about this, if you watch these, that pop culture shows, if you're watching what the message is in high school right now, the message is like, you don't need anyone. You can do this all on your own. There is this fantastic life out there for you alone. But I do think that, that there's a culture shift where young men are not happy with the idea of being alone. I think that there's the faith factor. I think there's been a bit of a revival in Christianity and there is a bit of a push for that traditional lifestyle. So I think that there is a real chance that we see a baby boom in this country, that that's all going to switch. But I don't know that it happens overnight. I think that we are going to. We have to be steadily holding on. I mean, I see these battles online right now over different faiths, right? And especially in Michigan, I see the battle over faith all the time. And I think instead of battling over which faith is the best, focus on your own and try to, I mean, aren't we called to recruit people to our own faith? And if, if the church reached out more, I think that that would be a huge support to young women. And we're, we're lacking there, but I see that changing.

[Buck Sexton]

I certainly hope so. Tudor Dixon everybody go check out the Tudor Dixon Dixon podcast on the Clay and Buck Network. Listen to it this weekend. Tudor, thank you so much.

[Tudor Dixon]

Thank you.

[Buck Sexton]

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[Commercial Voice / Producer Ally]

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[Buck Sexton]

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[Clay Travis]

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[Buck Sexton]

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[Clay Travis]

American innovators are cracking the code on Alzheimer's real breakthroughs. Helping people keep their memories, their independence, their lives. We've got the best researchers in the world ready to defeat Alzheimer's. But first they have to defeat bureaucratic red tape. That's where the Market Institute comes in. Their team is fighting to empower patients and unleash innovation. Join the [e-mail] that's marketinstitute.org because when we free the market, we make America healthier.

[Buck Sexton]

To close us out here for the weekend, my friends, before we send you off, and I hope you have a great one. I mean, we got Thanksgiving coming up so soon. I can't believe it. I'll be in New York for part of next week, so I'll be able to see my family that's based in nyc. And we will certainly have our arguments and discussions here on the show about various Thanksgiving paraphernalia, including. I will start a fight with Clay over this. This stuff that you guys do. It's. What's Ali. What's it called again? Where they can't make a pie, but then they smash it all up and they cobbler. Yeah, it's just a pie that someone sat on that you don't want to admit someone sat on, so you call it cobbler. I'm sorry. I don't make the rules. This is just the way that it is. Rooster Alley. What is the best thing to eat at Thanksgiving? What is your number one, your top thing?

[Commercial Voice / Producer Ally]

Oh, a really good stuffing.

[Tudor Dixon]

A creative stuffing.

[Buck Sexton]

Stuffing is exciting. My thing is, why isn't stuffing something that is eaten year round? Like, why is it only on Thanksgiving? I don't know. I don't get. This stuffing is delicious.

[Tudor Dixon]

That's a really good question. I don't know.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah.

[Tudor Dixon]

Does Ginger get any leftovers?

[Buck Sexton]

Oh, my gosh. She's already. You know, she was supposed to be. They told us she was going to be £20. Like, the. The. The breeder told her she'd be 20. She's like £30 now. So we probably got to slow Ginger Spice down a little bit. She's gotten very good at. She's so manipulative. If she hear. She. She just walked in the room with me now, too. She's so cute. She heard me say her name, and so she came in. Hey, how you doing? She. She knows that if she comes in, whenever there's Tupperware that's been opened, there's a chance that someone's gonna give her some food. And it's like we've trained her without training her. All I have to do is open the top of a Tupperware lid, and wherever she is in the house, somehow she can always hear it. She will just. She will just appear.

[Tudor Dixon]

Our cats are the exact same way.

[Buck Sexton]

They do that. Was this for the tins of food or for Tupperware?

[Tudor Dixon]

For just the tins of food. But they hear that, and they come running.

[Buck Sexton]

I have to give you credit on something, Ally, actually, because the. You mentioned this, that there's backs, there's backlash. Backlash against Taylor Swift because quote, this is from Fortune magazine. Why some fans feel jilted by the star's trad wife. Almost maga coded turn to want to get married is now a tr. Like that's a trad wife move. Oh, it gets even just to be married.

[Tudor Dixon]

It gets even worse.

[Commercial Voice / Producer Ally]

They're actually accusing her of racism just.

[Tudor Dixon]

Because she said, I hope our kids look like him. Like as a term of endearment, like when you have children with the person you love, you hope your kids look like them.

[Commercial Voice / Producer Ally]

How is that racist?

[Buck Sexton]

I don't understand how people thank you, producer Ally, for this. I don't understand how people are so crazy about things like this. But this is increasingly something that we all have to contend with. I guess that there is now a movement where. What does that tell you though, about. Think about this, everybody. What does it tell you about where the country's headed where believing that men and women are different and can't become each other is right wing coded? Believing that a man and a woman just getting married and, and trying to build a family together has some right wing flavor to it. That seems to be what the Taylor Swift fans out there are saying. I wish, you know, she, I don't, I don't share her politics and I don't think she knows anything about politics, but that's fine. I do wish that she would just for the betterment. For the betterment of American young womendom, who, as discussed earlier in the week, I think are. Are in limited numbers in talk radio audience world. But I, I wish, you know, we had, I wish we had all the sorority girls listening to this show, but we have some, we don't have all of them. But the truth is this should be a moment for. I'm not a big T. Swift fan. Like, some of her tunes are kind of catchy, but this should be a moment for her to just say, hey, girls, go find a great guy, get married and start a family. Doesn't have to be any kind of a giveaway to Trump or the right wing or anything else, but encouraging young women to do this, it is a better pathway for them. Look, should people have the right to, to sit around and play video games all day and, you know, eat themselves into oblivion? I mean, yeah, if they choose that and that they're able to do it, but that doesn't mean that we should encourage them to do it. And I just think that encouraging people to achieve a family or to build a family and go in the direction of what civilization has been built on for thousands of years seems to be a pretty straightforward proposition for me. But then again, you know, we'll see. I think I might watch because I might have. Kerry might have a girls night this weekend, girls night out at dinner. And that's great. Encourage that. By the way, I might have a chance to watch the Netflix Frankenstein movie because Kerry doesn't do. I don't even think of. I mean, it's technically horror. Kind of more sci fi to me than horror. Like, no one watches Frankenstein. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so scared. But I do like, I do like Guillermo, Guillermo del Toro as a director. So maybe I'll have a movie review for you on, on Monday of next week. Clay will be back on Monday for sure, and that'll be fun. So we can, we can make more jokes about how he has a halo now because he met with the Pope. And I guess I got to up my game as a Catholic here. I got to get in to see the Pope. So I might have to make some calls to some bishops or something this weekend. But have a great one, everybody, and talk to you on Monday.

[Clay Travis]

Shh.

[Commercial Voice / Producer Ally]

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[Buck Sexton]

Four words.

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[Buck Sexton]

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[Commercial Announcer]

This is an I Heart podcast.