How Suffering Becomes the Path to Freedom | Jeff Nichols | Ep. 73

Summary

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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode Title: How Suffering Becomes the Path to Freedom | Jeff Nichols | Ep. 73
Released: November 5, 2025
Host: Dave Rutherford (filling in)
Guest: Jeff Nichols, former Navy SEAL, strength & conditioning consultant

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dave Rutherford welcomes Jeff Nichols, a former elite Navy SEAL turned world-class strength and conditioning coach, for a deep and candid conversation about how suffering, personal trial, and spiritual growth are intertwined on the path to true freedom. Drawing on Nichols’ journey from the extremes of violence and self-destruction to self-acceptance and spiritual wholeness, the pair explore how transformation happens—and why it so often starts with pain. Themes include masculinity, military culture, addiction, authentic relationships, faith, and holistic coaching.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of Relationships and Personal Ideology

[02:48] – [10:17]

• Relationships through Life's Stages:
  Nichols reflects on the changing types of relationships—from youth, to military brotherhood, to post-service connections—and the resulting personal growth.

• Ideological Extremes:
  Nichols says his all-or-nothing personality fueled his immersion in military ideology, but also led to being “caught up” in a belief system.

  "You can have still a very, very, very strong belief in something but not get caught up in it." (Jeff Nichols, [06:54])

• Violence and Spirituality:
  Jeff discusses reconciling his capacity for violence with his later pursuit of peace—comparing the disciplined violence of the samurai to the need for spiritual contrast.

  "I'm a huge, huge believer in extreme violence, but not from a standpoint of anger…you can't have the presence of a beautiful flower unless you see that it's draped in black." (Jeff Nichols, [07:54])

• Identity Crisis Post-Military:
  Nichols notes the challenge of being perceived as turning his back on the SEAL community, when in truth he was rejecting some personal and community behaviors, not the core values.

• From Violence to Joy:

  "My capacity for violence is as high as anyone, but I never experienced joy and love to the capacity that I have now." (Jeff Nichols, [09:30])

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2. Transformation Through Suffering

[16:24] – [28:39]

• Rock Bottom and Awakening:
  Nichols traces his motivation to coach others back to a period of intense personal suffering—addiction, failed relationships, a suicide attempt, and the loss of community.

• On Masking Pain:
  He describes his former life as moving between unhealthy behaviors—violence, substance abuse, infidelity—and rationalizing them.

• Redefining Masculinity:
  He credits his mother for modeling grace, but says it took losing everything (career, loved ones, self-worth) to recognize his need for introspection and authentic happiness.

• Rebuilding Life and Self-Expression:
  Nichols recounts how finding a new, nonjudgmental love enabled him to become more expressive and joyous—embracing quirks, hobbies, and vulnerability without shame.

  "I have so much freedom whereas before I felt so confined by…I had to be somebody." (Jeff Nichols, [22:58])

• Success Measured Differently:
  While his SEAL achievements brought respect, he now values being authentic above all.

  "Whenever you have goosebumps, you're close to joy…I'm just gonna keep chasing that, chasing joy, you know, instead of drugs and sex." (Jeff Nichols, [24:46])

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3. Suffering as a Gateway to Freedom & Spiritual Maturity

[28:39] – [34:40]

• Compassion Means Allowing Suffering:
  Nichols discusses the necessity of letting loved ones encounter suffering and take self-responsibility:

  "It's actually truly love somebody and let them suffer because that's the most compassionate thing you can do." (Jeff Nichols, [32:33])

• Being “In the Suffering, Not Of the Suffering”:
  He distinguishes between being completely consumed by suffering, and being aware of its lesson and necessity—a path to awakening.

• Role of Spiritual Connection:
  Nichols emphasizes a personal experience of the divine and sees the purpose behind pain as a loving process of growth, not punishment.

  "My process in life now is…to meet people in different stages of awareness and awakening." (Jeff Nichols, [33:11])

• His Coaching as a Conduit:
  Clients come for toughness and Navy SEAL cred but often leave with tools for deeper healing taught by his wife, who brings empathy and spiritual guidance.

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4. Integrating Tactical, Emotional, and Spiritual Coaching

[41:24] – [59:09]

• Authenticity-Driven Approach:
  Nichols strives not to project his failures onto clients, but to patiently draw out their motivations, traumas, and strengths—meeting each authentically and without judgment.

  "I'm not there to fucking tell stories or be their friend, I'm there to be honest, like, completely honest about my problems, my shortcomings." (Jeff Nichols, [44:24])

• Power of Community and Circle:
  He describes spiritual, even mystical, experiences during group meditations and emotional breakthroughs within his men’s circles.

  "There's nothing that brings me closer to God than sitting around that circle of men and going, this is it, man…like, real angels sitting here." (Jeff Nichols, [46:58])

• Building Trust and Expanded Consciousness:
  The combination of honest physical training and openness about faith naturally invites students to deeper spiritual exploration.

  • His wife’s empathic intuition complements his own, allowing for layered emotional and spiritual sage guidance, especially during/after trauma.

• Leading by Example:
  He expresses profound gratitude that after so much struggle, he can now be a healthy example for other men, teaching that one can be both “extraordinarily violent” and deeply gentle, loving, and authentic.

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5. The Nichols Coaching Experience: What Clients Receive

[60:30] – [65:49]

• Personal, Not Prescriptive:
  Nichols emphasizes his focus on meeting people where they are, and only sharing his own experiences as an “olive branch” to invite vulnerability—not to compete in suffering.

• Physicality and Self-Care as Gateways:
  Physical suffering and discipline (diet, sleep, exercise) are first steps to harmony and self-knowledge, which then open the door to more spiritual and emotional work, often led by his wife.

  "If you really care and you want to do this and do these things…that's my conduit. I got the easy job, Dave." (Jeff Nichols, [62:18])

• No Judgment—Only Support:
  They support clients regardless of faith background or trauma history—whether traditional, religious, or agnostic—aiming to help every individual tap into their own truth and capacity for joy.

  "We're just saying, hey, this human experience is fucking hard, man…But you know what? When you get a handle on it and you're authentic, God Almighty, it's good." (Jeff Nichols, [64:14])

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6. Closing—Building Lasting Community & Contact Info

[65:49] – [70:00]

• Invitation to ‘Farm Strong’:
  Nichols shares plans for a future immersive community event—mixing the best of physical, spiritual, and lifestyle practices in an environment of fellowship.

  "You bring in you. We make our own laundry detergent, make your own deodorant…weights and food and so everyone brings their own peace…and that's community and fellowship." (Jeff Nichols, [67:00])

• How to Work with Jeff & His Wife:

  • Main platforms: Instagram (@jeffcscs), YouTube, performancefirstus.com
  • All written training programs are accessible online, with corresponding video demos.
  • In-person and online training available; all client communications are managed by his wife, who’s also a highly accomplished coach.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Violence and Spirituality:
  "How is like that much violence breeding that much spirituality?…You can't have the presence of a beautiful flower…unless you see that it's draped in black."
  — Jeff Nichols ([07:57])

• On Transformation:
  “It didn’t come from me because I was the best SEAL. It came from heavy drug use…a failed suicide…I was an opioid addict…masking so many of the feelings that I felt.”
  — Jeff Nichols ([16:56])

• On Joy and Authenticity:
  "But man, I have so much value now on people liking me, appreciating me just because I'm authentic and I never could be that before."
  — Jeff Nichols ([23:23])

• On Compassion and Suffering:
  "To actually truly love somebody and let them suffer because that’s the most compassionate thing you can do."
  — Jeff Nichols ([32:33])

• On Coaching and Community:
  “There's nothing that brings me closer to God than sitting around that circle of men and going, this is it, man. This is…real angels sitting here."
  — Jeff Nichols ([46:58])

• On the Nichols Coaching Experience:
  “What do you want? Because a lot of… tactical population…are trying to work through trauma…So my side is, let’s work through that with good physical suffering, good physical effort. Let’s get that aligned.”
  — Jeff Nichols ([60:38])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:48] – Introduction and the importance of relationships
• [05:40] – Ideology, military culture, and personal growth
• [09:30] – Reconciling violence and joy
• [16:48] – Personal suffering and awakening
• [22:58] – Embracing freedom and authenticity
• [28:39] – Suffering as a path to maturity and self-responsibility
• [32:33] – Letting loved ones suffer for their own growth
• [41:24] – Coaching philosophy: authenticity, honesty, and patience
• [46:58] – Spiritual moments within community
• [60:38] – The coaching experience: tailored, holistic support
• [67:00] – Forthcoming ‘Farm Strong’ community event & fellowship
• [68:22] – How to connect with Jeff & his wife, details on programs

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Tone & Vibe

The conversation is raw, philosophical, and deeply human—alternating between intense vulnerability, laughter at past follies, and thoughtful spiritual reflection. Nichols is honest about his faults and equally humble about what he now offers as a coach, giving credit both to his wife and the divine.

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Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode offers a unique look into how even the toughest, most accomplished warriors can undergo profound transformation—not simply in their habits, but at the level of the soul. Through honest accounts of addiction, depression, and eventual awakening, Jeff Nichols embodies the paradox that true freedom often emerges from the crucible of suffering. Listeners are treated to practical insights on personal evolution and coaching, but also a hopeful reminder: everyone deserves joy, and it often begins on the other side of pain.

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Transcript

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[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

There are several things that we need as human beings in order to flourish and to develop and to grow and to become more than what we were yesterday. And some of those things I believe are first and foremost, our strength in fitness. Second, our commitment towards service, and third, our commitment towards our genuine selves. Today's guest is a person that I've known for a long time, and he's a person that represents all three of those ideals to his core. And being able to have beared witness to his development not only as an elite athlete in college, but to an elite warrior at a tier one unit in the, in the SEAL community, but now as one of the top strength and conditioning consultants and, and trainers on the planet and, and overall, just an awesome human being. I'm so proud and privileged to wel welcome Jeff Nichols to this today's show. Jeff, how are you, brother?

[Jeff Nichols]

I'm good. It's. I try to get used to people like saying those things about me, but coming from you, I know it's genuine and it's really appreciated. Like we have, we've come a long ways and I think the last time I talked to you, to talk to you, we were crying before and you already got me going. But I just, you know, I think that the thing for me is I never understood relationships and I never understood the value of them. And I figured if, if Christ, you know, if being a teacher is good enough for him, I suppose it's good enough for me as well. So I appreciate that so much.

[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

You're welcome. You know, I think one of the. A good place to start is just relationships and how they evolve.

[Jeff Nichols]

Right.

[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

You know, I think we have so many relationships that whether we were, from when we were athletes and those, you know, youthful juvenile relationships in that competitive sense to the relationships that we experienced in the teams, which was, you know, more about that peer evaluation and performance and then, you know, I think, you know, post life serving and specifically like the relationships were capable. Now how have you. What are the things that you've really seen within yourself through those phases that have been the turning points for you to grow into the person you are today?

[Jeff Nichols]

Yeah, I think that on that kind of, in that, that, that sort of wave of timeline, there is this real natural sort of ideological like picking side of something. This, this. I think it has some value to it. Like, I mean, ideology of like I was born a Catholic, right? In that sort of Christian world, I became a soldier. And I think that the more you get involved or the more seeking that you do in any of those sort of places, you get more steeped in sort of a belief system that not only is like shared in that steep sort of severe or sincere world. A lot of it though, like you kind of, you might get caught up into it a little bit too much, I think. Right. You really. But. But I think that like the SEAL teams is an example. There's a lot of protective ideologies in that. And I mean like the way we think, the way we believe, the way we act. I think that it's in the, and it's necessary like the soldiering aspect of it, the discipline aspect of it, like, you know, do what you're told because I don't have time to explain. I think there's some real protective value in that. But I think that for me, I, I'm very much an all in or nothing person. I'm all. I think that's, that's really kind of a makeup of, of my personality, right. Like the likeness that I have, the creation that's. That is inherently me. Not like this is the way I am. But I think that the thing is, is that you can have still a very, very, very strong belief in something but not get caught up in it. And I mean this is like, I'm a huge, huge believer in extreme violence, but not from a standpoint of anger. And so that was a real hard construct for me to get my head around of. Like, you know, I look back at the 600 years of the Civil War of the Japanese, like samurai class was like, how is like that much violence breeding that much spirituality? And I think that because there's a there, there has to be that contrast. I learned that from my wife, is like you can't have the presence with, of a beautiful flower that's beautiful and pink unless you look at it inherently and see that it's. It's draped in black. There's a contrast there. And so I think that it's a really hard thing to look at. Whether it's religion or it's being a soldier, being a seal, whatever it is, it's really hard to realize they're both present. And so that, that for me has been the big change is that I very, very, very much believe in the things that I did and the actions that I took in the teams and in life. But I look at from a different lens and it's weird for people, like I can, I Mean, I know I get pushed back from former teammates of mine of being like, you turn your back on the community? I'm like, no, no, no. I turn my back on some of the behavior. My behavior. And so my behaviors in the past that have now changed in my viewpoint, I think seem very unstable to other people. Whereas for me, it's finally stabilizing. And it's a hard thing for people to understand. But I don't know many people that have been around as much violence as me, like, true violence. And then to step back and say, jeff, what's your favorite thing to do? Meditation? Gardening. Like that really is and like it. And I think that that belief system or my behaviors now, from a viewpoint of other people that are still stuck in those ideologies seem very counterintuitive, but I don't. I know, I know, I know.

[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

I know.

[Jeff Nichols]

And this is straight to you. And you know this like, my capacity for violence is as high as anyone, but I never experienced joy and love to the capacity that I have now. And as a friend of mine, that that's all we've ever show shared is that ability to find or seeking joy and love and compassion. And it sounds so counterintuitive to the violence that I was so accustomed to and still appreciate. Man, I'm. I'm more violent now than I've ever been from a standpoint of a belief, because I feel like I'm not taking a side other than the side of truth. And so I think that that's my little soapbox speech of kind of where it's come from and like, kind of where my mindset's at, that's kind of where it's at.

[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

I love that, you know, because I. I think the. That. That understanding for people who want to try and exist in this binary, you know, x or O or 1 or 0, whatever it is, good, bad, you know, violent, peaceful, whatever is. Is really like the. The. The catharsis of. Of our evolution as. As healthy souls, Right? That takes place when we recognize all of those things exist at one time, and then. And then our ability to manipulate those things to fit the. The. The source of energy we need to perform for the people we love, for the people we're teaching, for the people we want to inspire. Right. So I want to ask you about how you took all of these things and refine them into a system that helps people get healthy. But before I do that, I got to talk about one of our great sponsors. That's Hillsdale College. Okay? Now, I don't know about you, but I am tired of scrolling through shows on TV and finding nothing but the same mind numbing content or even really a lot of the same mind numbing content on my phone. Now you've probably been there too. So you know, don't waste the precious little time you have by dealing with all that nonsensical, just ridiculous stuff that's this plaguing everywhere we look nowadays. Instead of why don't you use that time to learn something new and inspiring? All right, here's the deal. Hillsdale College is offering more than 40 free online courses. That's right, more than 40 free online courses. You can learn about the works of C.S. lewis, the stories in the Book of Genesis, the meaning of the US Constitution, the rise and fall of the Roman Republic, or the history of the ancient Christian Church with Hillsdale College's online courses. And by the way, once again, they are all available for free. That's right, they're all free. Now I personally recommend you sign up for Ancient Christianity. In this 11 lecture course, you'll study the inspiring stories of Christ, his apostles and faithful ones throughout the first four centuries of Christianity. You'll also learn the arguments of key early Christian apologists who defended the Christian faith in the face of comprehensive persecution. The course is self paced, so you can start whenever and wherever. Enroll now in Ancient Christianity to discover the improbable and miraculous story of Christianity. Go right now to Hillsdale Edu David to enroll. There's no cost and it's easy to get started. That's Hillsdale Edu David to register or click the link in the show notes Hillsdale Edu David all right Jeff, so what I want to know about your system is this.

[Jeff Nichols]

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[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

When did you decide that you're going to take all those things and refine them through this really, really intense but but sophisticated and and informative way that you instruct people to become healthier?

[Jeff Nichols]

That came from not omnipotence and it didn't come from A place of, it did come from a place of self righteousness that led to a real, real terrible behaviors. Like, it didn't come from me because I was the best seal. It came from me because two things. I was a highly, highly, highly skilled seal that squandered it by and large, from a perspective and in. That bled into my personal life. Like I was very unfaithful to someone I really cared and loved, but I didn't know how to communicate that. And then that spilled into and all these sort of things. And so it didn't. It came from a place of, you know, failed suicide. It came from a place of heavy drug use. It came from a place of like I was an opioid addict, addict for about eight years or better, you know, and it came from all of this place that I was masking or, or I was numbing so many of the feelings that I felt that again, going back to the ideological side, like I always viewed somebody that was, that was very, you know, the difference between objectivity and subjectivity, as like, if you're subjective, you're weak. That's how I actually would. That was a phrase of mine. Like, I only respected people that were objective and that, that, that lends itself very good in a command and control environment and tactical space. But that doesn't work very well in a, in a social environment at all, especially for someone you care. And it was weird because like, I didn't grow up in that environment. My, my parents were happily married for 40 years and my mom is like, if, if, if my mother is an incarnation of another being, it's Mary Magdalene. My mom was born in grace, true grace. And I, I was raised in that grace. But because of that grace, I respected my parents so much, they gave me an infinite rope. And I didn't drink, I didn't get out of hand. I never missed school. But when I got to an opportunity to have to really fend for myself emotionally, I was really easy for me to make excuses as why and justify behavior because I had never done it. I'm just let. Letting go and like I'm, you know, I'm not showing up. The justification of I'm not showing up hungover because pills didn't make me feel hungover. And so I had all these justifications in place that further substantiated bad behavior. And I don't believe in addiction necessarily as like alcoholic. And I'm not speaking for other people. For myself. Mine was just clinging to other bad behaviors. I shifted from violence to opioids. Opioids to sex, sex, back to opioids. And then the fall for me, like, there was a real awakening then I could no longer blame anyone else because the people that I surrounded myself with no longer would anyone anything to do with me. And that's where you and a few other people were around. I was like, after all of my behavior, that is really not okay. In a workspace and in a social space, there are still people that saw something in me that was worth. Worth, like, going, hey, man. Like, after all my. All the people saying, hey, man, what's wrong? You gotta straighten up. I was like, off, man. I don't need this. Whereas some people like you. I don't know what it was. I don't. I. And it. That's where it's divine to me. I don't. It wasn't. Yes, I made choices after the fact to. To. To be more aware of my behavior, but I was shown a different way. Not through human action and like, yes, but like, there was something truly divine that happened in me. And. And it made sense finally. Like, I. I grew up in a very, very good Catholic religious setting and I believed in God, but I never felt like I had a relationship with the thing that. That I was really subservient to until I made all of these terrible decisions that I lost all the things that I attached my ideologies to. And so. And then I never in a million years thought I'd meet another woman that also could see me without judgment. And I did. And I had a second chance of actually being in love and falling in love and that actually expressing it instead of just, I know I love you. Why can't you just let you see I got a roof over your head? And I feel like just. I just didn't know how to express myself in a way that was really commensurate with, like, compassion and love. But I had it as a dad. Like, I really am a good, really good father and was when my son was young and there's a gap of misunderstanding as we do, but, like, I have a really good relationship with my son and I never thought I'd be able to have that. And so largely, that's largely because of my current wife now is in a position to handle and guide me in a way that made me realize, like, your son, when he's 18, if you keep acting like this, he doesn't need to be around. There's no obligation for him to be around, even though he may love you. So that was a real. It just. That's what it is. It's like I finally, I finally understood that I wanted to be introspective, not to just be clever. I wanted to be introspective, to be like, to be happy. And my mom said to me a long time ago and I didn't make sense. She was just like, you know, everyone deserves a right to be happy, but it's really up to you whether you, what behaviors you have and what you're going to do. And all of those things kind of culminated into I find a lot of value and self love now in making sure that the truth is this. Dave. My title as a SEAL Team six operator gets put on a pedestal and I understand why. But the Navy SEAL that Jeff Nichols was, from an operator standpoint, yes, got it. He could do the things, but this is not somebody worth giving any sort of adulation to. From an emotional standpoint, I was not a good person. I wasn't behaving as one. And for the first time in my life I'm like, ah, like you really actually, you are a good person. And like I'm not asking for any adulation but like it's weird to have this like appreciation put on me because of my job. But like now like yes, the job has given me so much and to open up so many things and so many blessings beyond my number and count. And I appreciate that. I love that and I love that that was, is a thing that people like go like that. That takes a lot of effort and takes a lot of commitment in those things. But like I have so much value now on people liking me, appreciating me just because I'm authentic and I never could be that before. Like I was, I grew up loving comic books, but I was, I, I, you could have never caught me reading a comic book in public as a seal because I just felt like that was like weird or something. You know, like we talked about, you know, like my tattoos were all black in the teams. I had a beard down to here, hairs as long. Like now I've got earrings and colored tattoos and I, I would read comic books and I garden like, like it's weird that I have so much freedom whereas before I felt so confined by. I had to be somebody or be. And that was me. It wasn't necessarily placed on me by the community. There are some things that are a little bit odd in that sense. But you know, I, that's, that it's a hard thing to kind of wrangle in because you're not supposed to be as violent as I'm capable of and be this happy because I couldn't find joy in the teams. I, I found achievement, tons of it, tons of achievement. But I, I have not felt this much joy and peace. And I always say, like, whenever you have goosebumps, you're close to joy. Man, I get them all the time. And I gets wild. So I, I'm just gonna keep chasing that, chasing joy, you know, instead of drugs and sex.

[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

I, it. I, that's the thing that I saw, like, when we first really came together when, you know, back on a T and Q and you came out and came on, like, that's the feeling I felt like that's the thing I saw, you know, and, and it was like, man, there's. You're searching, like you're going for it. You're looking for this. And then as you kept going and you went through all those changes and then, you know, I remember you went through a period where you were really trying to explore what that faith was going to look like, whether what God was going to be like in your life, and went through that whole time. And then just in the last, like, two years especially, you know, in particular, I think the last time we spoke on the phone, about a year ago. Year, a little over a year ago, like, it's this. I'm, I, it's the, the journey is coming to fruition, and it's a similar journey that I was on. Like, I, I was, I was, I was covering up the person that I wanted to be because I felt like it would have created an unnecessary vulnerability in the way my peers assessed me. Right. And so, you know, what do you do? You hide within. You hide. I don't know if it's. You exist within a space that, that fits the expectation. And then, and then you hit a point where that's so frustrating, it's so debilitating that you're like, all right, I'm going to try and shake it off as violently or as dysfunctionally as I can to try and break free into a space that you're not sure what that space is going to look like next. And I think, you know, that's when the journey really begins. Like when you, when you do detach yourself from those chains of expectation or chains of performance or whatever you want to call it, you, you, you break free of those chains and now you're free, but now you're wandering in the desert, right? And you gotta go figure it the out. And, and, and, and, you know, for me, it was really that, that transitional Time through the divorce and just going through all that and leaving the show and then really, you know, trying to figure out who am I and what do I actually want to be. And then, you know, John had come into my life and really enabling me to restructure that subjectivity, the subjective perception of who I wanted to be. Right? To, to shift into the person that I always. Like you said when you were a kid and the way you were raised, like, I'm the same way, man. Before Jonah, I hadn't felt that peace since I was like an 11 or 12 year old kid. Maybe a little bit before that 10 year old kid, before the chaos in my home began with my brother. But then now it's like, man, like you said, and I think the way Katherine surmised it with your son, do you want your children to have a sense of obligation or a desire to be with you, to spend time with you? And that's the question now. And you know, I, I think I saw that journey beginning in your eyes and, and I, like, I was like, man, that dude is on the journey. And that's why I think I was so drawn to you because I, I knew you weren't gonna, it wasn't gonna be easy. You were gonna, you're fighting your way through it. But like, man, you were determined. And I think that was really that connective point for me with, with our relationship.

[Jeff Nichols]

Yeah. I think that this is not going to sound normal, but I know you'll hear it is like someone I deeply care about. Like you, for example, my wife. And then this is not a slight on like a negativity. It's like when you see someone being authentic and honest and they go through a struggle, you're kind of like, man, I hope that person suffers so bad. They, they do. Like, and I don't mean like, it's not a negative thing. It's like there's a real, real truth beyond human experience that's so inherent with suffering that you are willing to go, hey, I'm, I'm in this. It's not. But I'm not, it's not of it. Like, I'm not of the, like, I'm not, I'm. It's like, it's just, it is the Bible quote, right? But it's not, it's like, it's. I, I can be of the, the people that are of the suffering, they're just stuck. They're, they'll never, they're never going to change. Change. But someone that's in the suffering and is Aware of it. That like, this is part of it, this is part of the process, this is part of the path. The cliches all come out now. It's like, that's, that's, that's what we're talking about. It's like when you're, when you are actively knowing. Like, my wife would say this to me or way back and she says, and like when people are struggling about their spirituality and she's like, she'll go, do you love your mother? And you're like, of course I do. Like, we'll prove it. There's a knowing, like a real knowing of it. And, and the same sort of thing is like when you are having a hard go in life, but you're well aware of that's what you need to be going through and you don't shirk it. And you, while you're in it, you are not getting caught up in some of your old behaviors that pull you back in. And sometimes, and I mean this, like, I have friends that I can't be around, not because I dislike them or not love them. They're in a place where their behaviors. When I put myself in that environment, I begin to justify those behaviors again. It has not like, keep doing your. Doing your thing. Like, keep doing it. I do love you. And if that person ever, those people ever came along, it's like, I need your help. I would stop. Unless. I'd stop and give them everything I could. Unless they're still perpetuating that lie or that behavior that's not healthy for me to be around. And so that's a really odd place to be is, is actually truly love somebody and let them suffer because that's the most compassionate thing you can do. And that's really where it comes like down to taking self responsibility, I think. And it's. This is all like deep spiritual work, if you want to call it that. Where I really. I know, I know there's a God. I know. Like, not because of anything other than I know. And I've experienced all of it. Like I, I've seen it spirits, it, felt it beyond. Those aren't even words that can compare, right? And you go, I'm on this path, this process. Not, not because I'm suffering, but because the, the being that created all of this beautiful everythingness loves me, truly loves me and loves. And that's the pro. That's the point. The point of all of this is not to be a Navy Seal, be a Division 1 baseball player. All these things that I thought that that was the thing. And now it's like, yes, I'm a coach, I'm a teacher. We have a lot of great opportunities and students. But my process in life now is we will meet people in different stages of awareness and awakening. And it's my job to greet them at those points differently than my wife because she's the empath, she's the healer, she teaches the meditation, she teaches the thing. But I have to meet them in a place because they all come to see me, the Navy seal, the tough, whatever it is. And we always laugh because they always leave with her information because it's like, I, that's right. I know right where you're at, man, because I was there and that fire is hot and, and you're gonna get exactly what you're looking for. But on the back end, the generations before us, the Vietnam, the so on, the so on and so on, many of us weren't lucky to have that grace to fall into it. When we go through the fire. And my wife is the like the fire extinguisher of the soul. And they come to see the fire, but they don't need any more fire. They need somebody to make sense of it. And I am just have enough sort of experience or grace, if you call that to go well, here's my limitation of education on that field. Like, you gotta go see my wife. And it's, it's truly divine and it's, it's undeniable and it's, it's, it's infinite. And that's the thing that, like, I get to be in the front seat of is, is God. I get to see God in all of these people. And it's not a joke, it's not figurative. Like, I see it and, and it's, and that's why I'm here. Not here to, I say I'm here to give you a barbell back squat properly. But that's, that's just another method of suffering. That's all it is. And it's. I got to dance with the devil, literally got to dance with BAAL and Satan in the underworld. I got to, I was ringleader man. And to now realize that there is a completely other side to that that is so much stronger and that's what I get to do.

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[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

For me, that's the coolest aspect of your evolution, is to watch you as a teacher, as a coach, as a guide, to really begin to refine the process. And it's not just that, like you said, it's not just the singular process of, you know, the proper deadlift first squat. I mean, it's so much more and like you said, infinite. So what I want to know is how you encapsulate both the tactical information as well as the metaphysical and spiritual information in your coaching. All right, but before we talk about that, I gotta give a shout out to another one of our incredible sponsors, Patriot Mobile. Every choice we make is an opportunity to stand for freedom, even something as simple as your cell phone service. Now here's the truth. Most cell phone providers do not care about you at all. They just want your dough. Patriot Mobile is definitely different. For over 12 years, they've stood with Americans who believe in faith, family and freedom, contributing millions of dollars to to Christian conservative causes. The best part is with Patriot Mobile you don't have to sacrifice quality or service. Patriot Mobile offers premium access to all three major US networks so you'll never have to worry about your coverage. If you think switching is complicated, guess what? It's not. Keep your number, keep your phone or simply Upgrade. Patriot Mobile's 100% US based team will get you activated in minutes. Stuck in a contract or still owe money on your phone. Don't sweat it. They even have a contract buyout program. What are you waiting for? Go to patriotmobile.com forward/rutherford or call 972 Patriot. Use promo code Rutherford R U T H E R F O R D for a free month of service. Why don't you switch today? That's patriotmobile.com rutherford or call 972-patriot. All right Jeff, I want to dig into your coaching a little bit more and understand how you incorporate all these things.

[Jeff Nichols]

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[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

That's MortonBuildings.com so how do you encapsulate, you know, the, I don't know, for lack of a better term, the, the tactical information as well as the metaphysical, the theological, the soulful inflection, the development of that peaceful content. How do you and your wife encapsulate that so that people can experience that in, you know, the amount of time they can come and be with you guys?

[Jeff Nichols]

I, I, I make sure my goal for all of these individuals that we train is to make sure that I'm teaching, coaching, sharing, not from a standpoint of if I fail this way, do it this way so you don't fail like me. Like, that's, there's only so many people that are just like me in that way. What's really the real, not difficult, but like the, the measure of patience that's necessary to like get to know them. Like really see if we can draw out what, what makes them tick. And that's where the, that's where my wife comes in. Like, that's not like we not even try to draw. Like, it's not like this pragmatic, like, let's sit around and talk about our feelings, which is, which is fine. Like, and that's, that's great especially if you know somebody like that. But that's, that's like people are really guarded and should be and necessarily like, makes sense why they aren't super open because you and I both know that the demographic of special operator by and large isn't somebody that's super authentic. We're all trying to be this thing, right? Like, there's a few that we'll meet along the way. Like the most authentic seal I've ever met is Dan Corbett. Like, he wasn't like ever trying to be somebody. Like, it was, it was, it was wild to see someone that free and way. It's the most violent, one of the most violent amazing humans I've ever been around. Like, if I had to go to war, that's the dude I'm picking, right? And it's like, you don't know how. There's another guy in my, my bud's class that I always looked at, like, real odd, like, and he wasn't questioning authority. He was just contemplating why, why are we doing it this way? And it drove me nuts because I was so objective. Do what you say, shut up and go. So what does that have to do with what we do? There is, I, I really enjoy, to a degree, and this is where my wife really helps me because I'm just, I don't have as much patience in that, that world. But like, when people come to us and train with us for six weeks, two days a week, whatever it might be, we know, I know, and you know, my wife knows too, that there's a real sincere, there's a seriousness to going to do that job, a sincerity. And like some guys you're like, certain about, and we've been right 100% guys going to go like, that dude's got it. Like, you just know, like, it's the thing, right? There's a real sense about that person. They crush it every time. And there's a couple, the majority of them, 80%, are trying to figure out, like, their whole family thinks they're crazy. Their friends think they're crazy. Like, what are you doing? Why would you ever want to do this? The world's effed up, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there's a, there's a calling. And so they're still trying to like, fulfill this calling while they've had been. Been in steep judgment against them. And like you said, the perception of the people that are close to them going, you're crazy. And so they're trying to figure that out. Like, what. Where do we fit into that? Where does this crazy Navy SEAL and this really beautiful, amazing woman, how do they fit into their perception and judgment of me? And once they get that figured out, realize they're like, holy. Like, they, they're just actually trying to be truthful, like, really truthful. Not from a standpoint of fear. There's no fear mongering. I don't, I don't need to tell stories about how dangerous it's going to be. Like, like, it just. Or whatever, right? Like, I don't need, doesn't need to be story time. And so when they find out really quickly that I'm not there to fucking tell stories or be their friend, I'm there to be honest, like, completely honest about my problems, my shortcomings. And they may have nothing to do with them, but each one of those guys, I'm telling you, when we, like, by week three, we're sitting around on a meditation and like, every one of those guys is in tears because most of these guys came from a place where. Somewhere. Somewhere, man. Like, just like me. I didn't feel like I was enough. And for all these reasons, whatever, they're good. They just are. That society, it's all blah. What are the stuff. But, like, that's. That's. That's the human condition. That's so cool. And instead of us placing judgment upon them and do it my way or else. Or do it my way. You should pray. Like me should do, like.

[Commercial Announcer]

No.

[Jeff Nichols]

Like, we can get a look around at all these guys were sitting in a circle, and we're like. You realize that, like, every one of you are made perfectly in the likeness of our Creator. Like, you're. You just are. Like. And for some reason, we all, at some point, have felt like we just didn't fit in. But now look around you, man. Like, you are surrounded by people that will just go all in. Why? Because they know. Not because it's a pragmatic definition, but they know. Just, like, do you love your mother? Do you love God? Do you love? Yes. And you can't define that. You can't box it in. You can't put in a book, and you can't put in a podcast, but you can surround people and you can make it. That energy is undeniable and infinite, and that's what we do. It just. You just. People are so concerned with pleasing other people before they themselves, themselves. And, like, man, like, these men that show up, these young men that show up, man, that gives me so much hope. Because, dude, like, we all know the world's burning in some way or another, and it just makes you just want to be mad, and you're just like, these guys traveled all over the world. We have people come from Australia. Like, we have people come from all over the world to go do this thing that they're. They're compelled to do. Like, if it ain't. If that ain't divine, man, nothing is. Like, I don't. There's nothing that brings me closer to God than sitting around that circle of men and going, this is it, man. This is. This is. These are angels sitting here, man. Like, real angels sitting here. That's power, man, and that is power you can't build. That is given. That is God given. And that's. That's. It's. There is nothing in my life more beautiful than seeing that. It's. It's. It's just. It's God, man. Just God. It's just God.

[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

It's Interesting. You know, I, as I went back and I'm just, you know, scrolling through the stuff that you put out on, on your Instagram page and, and YouTube and, and you know, I, I just, you know, you see, you know, an expert in, in your field. You see the competency in your descriptions and your instruction and your tutelage and you know, but then on the other side, you know, you did a recent one about the, the book, the Russian book about training and you know, there's a heartfelt message behind, like this is real. Like this is real stuff that is in this ingest. And you know, and then you do these other aspects of, of, you know, what you're trying to accomplish from that spiritual level too. And, and I see like this breadth of, of. Of information that's just growing and growing. Do you feel like finally now you, you are able to. What is it? It's almost overlay all those different planes of, of wisdom in, in. In. In kind of get that symbiosis to take place where they fuse through the actions or deeds of, of your students.

[Jeff Nichols]

With these guys. I'm talking about there's such a sincerity behind them and there's such a sincerity behind men and women that carry firearms and do the rescue people. Like there's a, there is nothing behind that that's not truthful when you are actually digging into it. And so those men and women are always looking for not an advantage of. Yes, it's an advantage, but they're just, they're tired of being bullshitted. And whether you're talking about faith, your spirituality, you're talking about the biology, you're talking about anything that we teach, it all comes from the same place. It's all truthful because we don't need to make up, we don't need to parrot and we don't need to kind of assume that the things that we've done are unique to us. Like they're just hand down information and knowledge and wisdom and through experience. And like I think that that's, that's the thing is that just like me and just like you, why did we join the teams? Like why do we do. Why do we authentically go and do the thing and succeed? Like there was a real, there's a truth to that. Like it's. We all know guys that didn't get out what they wanted to get out of it. Guys that this, that. But, but even with our mistakes, right, Even the things that like the thing that like broke you, the thing, the team stuff, it's like Insane with me. It's like, there's a real truth to that. It actually happened. It's honest in the same way that's like, listen, one of the first things that Christ said about, hey, heal the sick. This, like, don't tell anyone. What was the first thing they did? Tell everyone. And so it's like, that's what I'm saying is like, they are the same thing. David. If I'm teaching somebody a barbell back squat, that is my gateway to truth. It's if they're coming for me to lift weights with me and learn and all these things I've had trouble with, and I teach them authentically. And I'm like, this is all within you, and you can do it. What's the difference of that between, like, man, I'm having a struggle, having a hard time with the relationships, and I don't try to fix it. Certainly, maybe I can listen to it, but I also just, like, authentically can be like, I understand. I really do. I'm not trying to say that what you're feeling is like, I have a total grasp on it, and they're. We're separate. No, no, no, no, no. Like, I can meet a person where they're at, act truthfully. Like, I. I don't have to fix it. But when I'm coming authentically, there's trust, there's rapport, there's relationship. And so whether I'm. It's like, if I have given them some really good information that's led to them improving their movement patterns authentically, and now they own it, that person is very likely then to go, well, this person talks about his faith and how strong it is and how it's changed over the years. Like, maybe that person has something to offer me, too, because I kind of struggle with those things too. It's. It's a it and it's. And then that's really where my wife really comes into is because it's not just about me. And it's very easy for a husband and a wife to go. We're on the same line. We're doing the same stuff. We're doing like, man, like. It's not that my wife finishes my sentences for me. Here's a true fact. Here's something that'll blow your mind away a little bit. So we got married on Marcus's ranch, right? And. And. And so I went and did my first psychedelic journey in Mexico. I didn't tell anyone except for my wife and my mom. No one else. Nobody else. And so I'M driving across, coming across the border and my phone rings and Marcus is there and I'm like, what's up, man? He's like, welcome home. I'm like, how the do you just know, man? I could just know this, that and the other. So from that standpoint on, I get home, I get home and more than 10 times my wife would go like, you need to call so and so call Marcus. He's going to call you. I mean within minutes, man, he'd call. Or, or we'd be in our backyard. We had a bunch of bald eagles in our backyard in Virginia Beach. And almost every single time for the first year or two after that, anytime I'd see a bald eagle, Marcus would call or someone like you would call. Like, no kidding. Like when that was a thing when you called the last time my wife called it, she's like, you need to check on so and so or you need to do this. And it's like she genuinely has this sort of intuition that it was always sequestered by me. I could always pushed it down, pushed it down, you know, like, don't. And it's. There's a real. And I, I'm not going to get into my. My wife's childhood was very, very different than mine. And through that forging we'll say even like the same yours. There's certain behaviors and thoughts and processes that really come to, to light. And when somebody comes in, I can see the guys that were like me in a way, right. And I can kind of pick them out and it's pretty obvious, but there's a whole other side to that emotion. And she's able to, I mean to like a creepy level at first. She's able to like clearly define what they're experiencing and why not from a standpoint of judgment. And so when you, when you start adding those two things up, my ability to listen to my intuition from a standpoint of non judgment of people that I care for. And you add my wife, that same mix from a different set of eyes, from a different set of compassion, from a different set of angling. My wife is a fighter, man. She is a tough, tough, tough human. She is one of the most gentle beings I've ever been around. Like my mom, like, it's really like. It's like my mom and her like symbiotic. My dad was so objectively amazing. It drove me nuts as a child. He was so pragmatic and so put together and so composed. That's my, my wife is my dad's Basically behavior like it's the same. And like, I'm like, holy crap. Like the thing that drove me nuts in the past, now I just adore. And so you put that in a room with people that are authentically like, and they, you let them loose with people like us that will just let them be themselves. That's, it's. It's remarkable to see so many good humans come together and build relationships and like you launch them in the military. It's such a high success rate. We know, I know we don't see it just yet, but the seeds that have been planted with these extremely, extremely capable, violent men, but they have this capacity now to go, hey man, I can put this down. We didn't, I didn't have that. I mean, I tried it desperately to seek it in prayer in the pews of a Catholic church and things like that, and it had its value, but I couldn't take that off, man. I didn't, I didn't know how to relinquish that violence without feeling that I was giving something up that made me, you know, like, hey, I'm gonna give up this violence. I'm gonna go watch this, this movie. But I just know that's weakness, like, can't do that. I. And so to get these people to understand that like you can be extraordinarily violent and like love on your Great Dane and your kitten and like read comic books and do these things still, they're like, wait a minute, like, I thought you were supposed to be this really angry veteran that just. Ah, yeah, I was good at that, man. But it had its limits, man. My hair falling out, teeth getting rotten, like just health deteriorating. It's like. All that being said, it's weird that now at 47, after all those life experiences, it feels like I'm actually a decent example for as a human being. That's what. And I don't, I didn't have that. But I have it now because I have my yin and yang. My wife, she is like the complete balance of me, you know, and all, all. Some. Admittedly there it hasn't been Rose. That's the thing is we, we've covet in a weird way. Like we, we, we. If it weren't for covet, we probably wouldn't have survived as a relationship. Like we couldn't separate because of the situations and things and it was volatile. It was never violent, like against each other, but it just, it forced me, not her. She had to work through it. But man, it. I had to learn how to Communicate because I cared and I wasn't. Like, I didn't. Like, I had this real love and compassion for somebody and then that, that, like to take the two of us and put them in front of these people, that's it. Like, it's not really about me. It's, it's wildly not about me anymore. And I love that because it's not the Jeff show anymore. And I, God, that was awful. Like, I was just a ego driven, hard man. Like, what a shitty person I was behaving like, and I, and I so good to not be that anymore. Like, it's just so freeing.

[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

Well, I, I love that you express it like that, man. I, you know, and I, I, you know, again, I think that's what people are trying to find in themselves, right? They're trying to find that freedom, right, from, from those behavioral patterns, from those emotional shortfalls and from that spiritual whatever that devoid of spirituality. They, they, they, that's consuming them. They're, they're looking for that kind of freedom. And I just think it's, it's really special that you and your wife are out there and, and offer that, that kind of opportunity for people. You know, whether it's young men wanting to go into service or it's just people wanting to get healthy. And I think, you know, that's the conduit for that truth in us is through our physicality, through our emotional health, through our spiritual health. You know, what is it, what is it, do you think that you guys, if people are interested and they want to, you know, they want to understand what they're going to receive from you, how would you describe the experience that they're going to have if they come to your farm or even if you, you coach online or whatever it might be. What, what is, what is the truth that you're going to help them discover in themselves?

[Jeff Nichols]

Yeah, I think the big thing is I'm actually, I'm actually, I'm really concerned. Not about, I'm just saying, like, I really want to know what, what's. What's. What, what do they, what do they want? Like what, what do you want? Because a lot of like tactical population, military, police, fire, whatever it might be. My, my, my wife just had a zoom call and did a meditation with a surgeon from Texas. Because just person that experience trauma in a cancer ward and surgery and then like, how do I put that down? Like, I do believe that religion has a real good place because it's, it's, it's a real good foundational thing. But some People kind of get lost in the pragmatism of it. It's a little bit, it's like, what? But, but like, I just got to do this ritualistic thing and it may not, it may not speak to somebody. And that's, and that's, that's not a slight towards religion. It's just sometimes someone's seeking the heart. And I think that when people come to us because, like, I have experience in that space, but I don't presume to think that I have all the answers based on my experience. And so when we talk to them, we see them in coaching calls or in person. What we're trying to do is bring out of them, like, where are you at? What got you here? What are you really having trouble with? And if you're not honest, and that's too bad. But we share our own personal stories to say, hey, I'm not afraid to be, to be exposed. Because it's not like, I don't care what you think. It's like, no, no, like these, these positions of me sharing with you are an olive branch for you understand that, like, I'm not, I'm not trying to compete with you with what your suffering is or the trouble. I'm trying, not trying to compete with you. I'm just trying to share with you that I just might understand what suffering is or having trouble with. This is like, you know, like, we've had a couple guys that grew up in a very, very, very traditional Mormon polygamous life. We've had three. And all three of them that we've had experienced have really had a massive emotional blowback from that. Things they've seen things they don't agree with, why they left the church. And this is not like it's, it's like that in all the time it's like we see in Catholicism. So just as an example, because, like, I don't care what your faith is, I just care that you love God. And so whatever that path is, that's fine. But we, but what, But I can't, I can never, I've never experienced that in the Mormon Church. I've only experienced really good friends that are Mormon and they don't like, you know, so I'm not trying to compete with my suffering in theirs. But for us to say, hey, we can meet you and recognize that, hey, you're struggling and it's okay, because that's pretty, that's a pretty, pretty severe experience and it's going to take you some time to work through that. So my Side is like, let's work through that with good physical suffering, good physical effort. Let's. Let's get that aligned. And that falls into, what are you eating? How are you sleeping? What supplements are you using? Like, let's sort out this amazing one. The one gift, the one physical gift we get on this birthday is this Ferrari or Lamborghini. That's what I get to deal with, and that's my conduit. I don't have. I don't have the intuitive grace that my wife does in the spiritual side. So we team up. And if it's not me, they think, oh, God, I can. I'll fix your back. Squat all day. If you give a. If you really care and you want to do this and do these things. God, that's. I got the easy job, Dave. I got the real super easy job. But then it's like, hey, have you ever thought about these things? It's off my plate. And they look at me and I'm like, I'm not the teacher. I'm this. I get to be the student when my wife is teaching every time, you know? And so, like, I think that that's what they actually get. They get. They get two people that don't pretend to be something they're not. They're highly skilled in the things that we do. But that's not because we're trying to mirror our own excuses and mirror our own faults and mirror our own chinks in our armor. We're just saying, hey, this human experience is fucking hard, man. Whether it's the Navy SEAL or it's the things you do after when you're not wearing the Navy SEAL hat, life is really. Can be hard. But you know what? When you get a handle on it and you're authentic, God Almighty, it's good.

[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

Amen to that, brother. Thank you so much for coming on with me and. And just sharing the deepest of your thoughts. And I just love listening to you get me all excited and fired up about my own truth in my life and getting healthy myself on a regular basis. And I just. I love you to death, brother. And I cannot wait to see and get to hug your wife in person and thank her for what she's done for my friend. And I just. You're such a powerful person and you're doing such good for people. I just. I just really appreciate you, man. Thank you.

[Jeff Nichols]

Yeah, you know, the feeling is mutual. You never know, like, you never know where people's going to cross because I know you are part of my SQT staff. Right? And like there isn't a lot of recollection of that initiation of a friendship, right? And then fast forward to wherever we get and you go, there are just certain people in your life that like, matter, like really matter, and you're one of them. And that's never like, that's, you know, it's gonna be really rad. Is beyond this experience, you and I can go do what? Travel the cosmos on our server, surfer, surfboard or whatever. Whatever we get to do, man, I don't care what it is, but infinitely get. Enjoy this space of love and compassion, right? And it's like, I don't know what it holds beyond this, man, but like, we get snapshots of real truth and love in this. In this human experience. And if there's a real abundance beyond this, and I know that there is, man, it isn't alone. It's with people like you forever. And so that's what, you know, it's like, I. That's a hard part of like, strong in my spirituality. I don't want to check out too early. And that's. That's a. That's a real thing that you guys can get. Get glummed on. But in the future. This isn't a. This isn't a plug, but I just want to. You're going to get an invitation here probably in the spring. My wife and I want to do. It's basically called like a farm. Strong people that are really, really, really care about, invite them out here and you share like, it's the best food, the best training, the best spiritual. Like, and it's just. You bring in you. We. We make our own laundry detergent, make your own deodorant. We do all this, like. So like let's. We have a raw dairy farm just up the street. And it's like, let's bring in like the best of the best of each of us. You bring in your. You, it just. And you just share your space in this space of grace and like, that's it. Like, that's community and fellowship, man. And like we have weights and food and so everyone brings their own peace. And so be looking for that because it's like that. That matters to me. Community matters to me. And you are very much in my inner circle of community.

[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

Ah, thank you, man. I appreciate that. Jeff. Jeff, where can people find your programs? Pay attention and. And what are they? You just gave a little drop for the farm strong in the spring, but where else can people engage with you and your wife and really pull out this truth that people are, are so desperately looking for right now.

[Jeff Nichols]

Yeah, I guess, you know, Instagram is kind of my sort of bulletin board of information. It's Jeff CSCS. We have a YouTube channel as well that's kind of in our website. It's performance first us.com and kind of how it works is like we get it only so many people who can train in person. So basically all of our written programs are downloadable programs on our website. But every single exercise that's in that program, there's a direct demonstration on our YouTube channel. So it's kind of, that's the interface. You know, we do in person training and things like that. But like Instagram and social media is kind of our, our launching point and you know, maybe it'll evolve from there. But you know, we're just trying to reach out to many people as we can and that's right now, that's our avenue. My wife also, it's, she has her Instagram too and things like that. But like it's, you know, it's if, if you're coming to performance first, you're sending an email. You're, you're talking to my wife. She's my ghostwriter. She's put more people through buds than I and basically other than myself and Stu Smith. So if you've sent an email to my website in the last seven years, she's answered it all like, it's truly like, because my wife's background too. She's a strength conditioning coach. She's been doing it for as long as I have. She's had amazing mentors in college and things like that. So she is, you know, she's the most truly fit female I've ever been around. Like a 43 year old woman. Two, two back surgeries, two shoulder surgeries can knock out 12, 13, 14 pull ups at will. Just like. All right, well let's do that like, so that she's easy to reach. But don't, don't, don't, don't underestimate her, her soul. Because it's, it's, it's something.

[Interviewer (Dave Rutherford)]

It is something. All right, brother, thank you so much. I love you, man. God bless you and your wife and everything you guys are doing.

[Jeff Nichols]

Appreciate it, Jay. Love you too, man.

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