India vs Pakistan: A Conflict 75 Years in the Making | Ep. 11

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show – "India vs Pakistan: A Conflict 75 Years in the Making | Ep. 11"

Release Date: May 12, 2025
Host: David Rutherford
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In episode 11 of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, host David Rutherford delves deep into the long-standing and escalating conflict between India and Pakistan. With a rich historical backdrop and contemporary geopolitical tensions, the episode offers listeners a comprehensive analysis of the factors driving this volatile situation.

Triggering Event: The April 22, 2025 Attack

The immediate spark for the current conflict was a devastating terrorist attack on April 22, 2025, in the Bahasaran Valley near Pahalagam, Jammu and Kashmir, India. Five armed militants targeted a group of tourists, resulting in the death of 26 civilians—primarily Hindu tourists—while injuring 17 others.

Notable Quote:
“At 03:15, David Rutherford states,** “The Resistance Front TRF, a proxy of the Pakistani-based LeT, claimed responsibility, citing opposition to non-local settlement post Kashmir's 2019 status change.”**

Historical Context: Partition and Kashmir Disputes

The roots of the India-Pakistan conflict trace back to the 1947 British partition of India, which led to the creation of two separate states based on religious demographics: predominantly Hindu India and Muslim-majority Pakistan. This division ignited disputes over the Kashmir region, a strategically significant and culturally diverse area inhabited by both Hindus and Muslims.

Key Points:

• Mass Violence: The partition resulted in estimated casualties between 200,000 to 2 million and displaced about 14 million people.
• Recurring Wars: Since 1947, India and Pakistan have engaged in multiple conflicts, including wars in 1947-48, 1965, 1971, and the Kargil conflict in 1999.

Geopolitical Analysis: Alliances and Influences

David Rutherford outlines the intricate web of alliances and geopolitical strategies influencing the India-Pakistan dynamic.

Key Alliances:

• Pakistan and China: Pakistan maintains a strong alliance with China, which provides military support, economic aid, and access to the Indian Ocean through strategic military routes.
• India and Russia: India boasts a robust relationship with Russia, receiving advanced military equipment and support that bolsters its defense capabilities.
• BRICS Alliance: The inclusion of Brazil and South Africa in the BRICS group with Russia, India, and China adds complexity, particularly with their collective aim to weaken the American dollar.

Notable Quote:
“At 10:45, David Rutherford explains, “China dominates our industrialization by providing cheap labor and controlling critical supply chains, making their influence pivotal in this regional conflict.””

Economic Factors: GDP and Military Expenditures

A stark contrast exists between the economies of India and Pakistan, which directly impacts their military capabilities and strategic options.

Statistics:

• GDP: India’s GDP stands at approximately $3.8 trillion, making it about ten times larger than Pakistan’s $375 billion.
• Military Size: India boasts around 1.46 million active military personnel, whereas Pakistan has about 654,000, placing India at nearly double in personnel strength.
• Nuclear Arsenal: Both nations possess roughly 170-172 nuclear warheads, with plans to nearly double their arsenals within the next three to five years.

Notable Quote:
“At 19:07, Jordy affirms, “India’s GDP is about $3.8 trillion, and Pakistan’s is about $375 billion. So it’s about 10 times larger.””

Military Capabilities and Nuclear Concerns

The parity in nuclear capabilities between India and Pakistan raises alarms regarding the potential for nuclear escalation. Both countries have not signed the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty, heightening the risk of unrestrained nuclear armament.

Key Points:

• Nuclear Warheads: India and Pakistan each have approximately 170-172 nuclear warheads.
• Growth Rates: Pakistan is expanding its arsenal more rapidly than India, aiming to reach around 400 nuclear devices in the near future.
• Nuclear Strategy: India claims it maintains a no-first-strike policy, whereas Pakistan’s stance remains more ambiguous, increasing the risk of preemptive strikes under perceived threats.

Notable Quote:
“At 44:13, Jordy shares, “India has approximately 172 warheads and Pakistan has approximately 170 warheads.””

Terrorism and the Role of ISI

David Rutherford provides an in-depth look at the complex relationship between Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and various terrorist organizations, highlighting their influence on regional stability.

Key Points:

• Post-9/11 Dynamics: The ISI’s strategic support for militant groups has long complicated relations with the West, particularly the United States.
• Mumbai Attacks: In 2008, the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) orchestrated the brutal Mumbai attacks, killing 166 people across a train station and the Taj Mahal Palace Hotel.
• Continued Militancy: Groups like Jaish-e-Mohammed and the Pakistani Taliban remain active, perpetuating violence and undermining peace efforts.

Notable Quote:
“At 32:29, Jordy confirms, “The attack was at the Taj Mahal Palace and Tower Hotel, with a total of 175 people killed.””

Current Situation: Ceasefire and Missile Exchanges

Following the April 22 attack, President Trump and his team negotiated a ceasefire between India and Pakistan. However, David Rutherford expresses skepticism about the longevity and effectiveness of this ceasefire amidst ongoing missile exchanges and potential terrorist activities.

Key Points:

• Ceasefire Uncertainty: While a temporary halt to hostilities is in place, the underlying tensions and mistrust between the nations remain.
• Missile Threats: Both countries continue to engage in missile testing and exchanges, keeping the threat of broader conflict alive.
• Global Security Implications: The conflict has significant ramifications for international trade, geopolitical alliances, and global stability.

Notable Quote:
“At 50:24, David Rutherford reflects, “Neither India nor Pakistan have signed the Nuclear Proliferation Agreements. India has stated it won’t be a first strike, but Pakistan could launch one if threats escalate.””

Nuclear Winter and Global Fallout Risks

The potential use of nuclear weapons by India or Pakistan could trigger catastrophic environmental and humanitarian consequences globally.

Key Points:

• Nuclear Winter: Even a limited nuclear strike could initiate a nuclear winter, with widespread radioactive fallout affecting global climate and agriculture.
• Human Cost: A tactical nuclear strike could result in tens of millions of deaths, underscoring the urgent need for nuclear disarmament and diplomatic resolution.

Notable Quote:
“At 42:48, David Rutherford warns, “Even if it’s a tactical nuclear strike, taking out 70 million people would initiate a nuclear winter.””

Conclusion: Hopes for De-escalation

David Rutherford concludes the episode by expressing cautious optimism that diplomatic efforts and strategic alliances may prevent the conflict from spiraling into a full-scale war. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the complex interplay of historical grievances, economic disparities, and geopolitical maneuvers driving the India-Pakistan conflict.

Final Thoughts:
“At 50:53, David Rutherford shares, “I hope that the influence of superpowers and strategic alliances will diffuse this conflict in the next several months, preventing escalation.””

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Overall, this episode provides a thorough examination of the India-Pakistan conflict, blending historical context with current geopolitical analysis. Through detailed discussions and expert insights, David Rutherford equips listeners with a nuanced understanding of one of the world's most enduring and perilous conflicts.

Transcript

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[David Rutherford]

If you didn't think possible nuclear war with Russia and Ukraine was big, well, stand by because now we got to worry about about Pakistan in India. Welcome to the David Rutherford Show. What's up, team? I wanted to put out a little bit of a disclaimer for the show that's being aired on Monday. We recorded it on Friday. Today is actually Saturday. I just saw on X that President Trump and his team have negotiated a ceasefire deal between Pakistan and India. And thank God for that. We feel very blessed that for those people. But we still hope that you tune in and enjoy because I go very in depth as to the historical realities of what's taking place between these two areas in this conflict area of Kashmir. I also talk extensively about the geopolitical implications in terms of the relationships with us in India, Russia and India, China and Pakistan. And then obviously I talk in depth about the nuclear realities of these two countries. So even though there's a cease fire, we're not sure how that, how, how long that will stick or, or, or whether or not terrorist attacks will continue. But for now, we hope you enjoy the information that I provide. Thank you. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the show. I'm so fired up that you're here. You know, today's show is something that is a little bit more complex than what we typically deal with, but it's critical to help you gain a greater understanding or a greater appreciation for the recent conflict that has broken out in India and Pakistan. So before we get into my analysis, I just want to read you a quick report of what basically triggered this from happening. An attack occurred on April 22, 2025 in Bahasaran Valley near Pahalagam, Jammu and Kashmir, India. Five armed militants equipped with M4 carbines and AK47s attacked a group of tourists, killing 26 civilians, mostly Hindu tourists, one Christian, one local Muslim and one Nepali citizen and injuring 17. The assault targeted non Muslim tourists with reports of selective killings after religious identification. The Resistance Front TRF, a proxy of the Pakistani based LeT or Lashkar GA? E Taliba, claimed responsibility, citing opposition to non local settlement post Kashmir's 2019 status change. Indian authorities linked the attack to Pakistan, alleging involvement of LeT operatives and the Inner Services Intelligence, or ISI, of Pakistan. That's their CIA, with digital traces to safe houses in Muzaffarabad and Karachi. All right, so now you know why they started launching missiles at each other. But there's a lot bigger context to what's going on, Right? And so before we Go into what I believe are the key three analysis that you have to kind of take into consideration when you're. When you're wondering, all right, how, how substantial is this? Is it a regional, small regional conflict? Does it break out into a greater regional challenge? Is it going to affect international trade, shipping lanes, Is it going to affect world peace? Or more importantly, is it going to affect a global security? So before I get into that analysis, what's really under. What's really critical to understand is that this is not a new circumstance. This is not something that just all of a sudden, out of the blue, in a very docile peace, you know, filled region of the globe that this took place. This has been going on for a very long time. In fact, what really ignited this was, came after the British partition of India or British India in 1947, on August 15, essentially, when a post World War II was restructuring the map of the world. And so the British Empire decided, well, you know what? We're going to give these people their freedom. We're going to step back. Much as a result of the efforts for one of my favorite heroes in history, which is a gentleman by the name of Mahatma Gandhi. If you don't know who he is and you've never studied him, I highly recommend you do a little deep dive. Dig into Grok. Say, who is Mahatma Gandhi? One of the greatest resistance fighters for peaceful resistance in the history. And he played a major influence on Martin Luther King. This guy was a brilliant man who was educated in Britain as a barrister and then took on this quest to make India independent. And then from that independence, they broke free. Pakistan broke free. Why? Pretty simple, pretty common in this area as well as around the world. Pakistan is Muslim and India is Hindu. Right? So the basis of really this dispute originated over the Kashmir region. And it's in this region where you have those two different religious sects integrated into each other. They live side by side in different settlements, different towns, different cities. And so that really plays a major role. You know, when they first split off, it didn't take very long before conflicts began to broke out. You know, and, you know, the partition itself is. Has really been kind of marked by heavy violence ever since it happened, with rough estimates of 200,000 to 2 million casualties and a displacement of 14 million people. All right, now when you start to look at those numbers, it's very obvious to me that this is a region that has been strife with conflict ever since that separation. Now, what many people want to go, well, you know, what is the substantial nature of that conflict. And the conflict is not just these little border skirmishes of terrorist organizations or British or I should say Indian military units firing over the border, keeping people back. I mean, you know, the first Kashmir war was in 1947 and 1948. That was triggered by Pakistani tribal incursions. There was the 1965 war. And this conflict began with Pakistan's Operation Gibraltar, which it was an infiltration across the line of, of the line of control that separates these two, escalating to a 17 day war again in 1971, participated by the Bangladesh Liberation War in East Pakistan. Now Bangladesh. This war resulted in Pakistan's surrender of over 90,000 troops and the creation of Bangladesh. There was the 1999 cargo war where Pakistani troops and militants infiltrated across the line or located into the Kargil district, leading to a conflict where India recaptured 75 to 80% of the intruded area. Now, you know, these, these have been. This region is imbued with, with conflict. There's just no doubt about it. Right. And it all seems to stand behind this one little section. Now you know, there's also another aspect that took place where China came in and they captured a significant portion of this region that included what they believe were portions of Tibet and the surrounding areas. So now you've got Pakistan, India and China all kind of in the mix for this particular region. All right, so what is my analysis? All right, so, so there are three critical aspects of this region that I think would benefit you to understand. First and foremost is kind of the geopolitical aspect of it. Right. And why do these countries play such a significant role? Well, first and foremost, Pakistan has over 120 million people, like 99% Islamic. And then India is what, 1.3, 1.4 billion people in India. And that region's broken up into a lot more. But the primary group are Hindus. And so, you know, those two countries have very significant ties to superpowers in the area. Obviously, Pakistan is very connected to China. China utilizes a great portion of this region as an access to the Indian Ocean. There's a bunch of military routes that travel through and work in Pakistan. China also provides with a very substantial number of weapons systems into Pakistan. They also have economic support as well. Now, Pakistan is not a country that has a very substantial economic prowess at all. They do have some natural resources that give them some very viable influence into China. Of course, Pakistan also has pretty interesting connections to a lot of the other troublemakers in the region, which originated from a gentleman by the name of a Q. Khan. A. Q. Khan is known as the grandfather of Pakistan's nuclear program. And the real kind of kicker to that whole thing is that, you know, A. Q Khan was known for selling his nuclear abilities in his understanding of building nuclear reactors, where he gained in Europe back in the 1970s. Well, anyways, he sold a lot of that information to Iran and North Korea in particular. And so, you know, as we think about the broader impact of the region, Iran plays a significant role with their relation to Pakistan. Now India, on the other hand, has a very unique position in the world, not only just because of their size and their explosive industrialization. They are a real powerhouse in very different types of development, from the tech region to antibiotics and medicines to car manufacturing to different types of industrialization. And India plays a major role in that, in their ability to trade all throughout the world, but in particular in kind of that India Asia region. So, you know, they. And then they also have a profound amount of natural resources that give them a very substantial. Now their GDP compared to India's is radically different. Now, Jordy, would you look up that for me? Would you look up what the difference is between India and Pakistan's GDP for me real quick?

[Jordy]

Absolutely. One second.

[David Rutherford]

Thank you. So, as we think about India, one of the things that a lot of people don't recognize is that they've got very strong, close ties to Russia, right? Much of India's very much bigger army than Pakistan's has been enabled by Russian missile systems, Russian jets, Russian arms and ammunition. So Russia has played a very significant role in the arming and development of India's military. The other component that you have to understand with Russia and Pakistan, right, Pakistan was a significant conduit to help and support the Mujahedin and the in the Russia Afghan war, which really kind of was a proxy war between US and Russia that we ran through Pakistan and their intelligence services. We would actually, I've met and known a bunch of guys that actually trained the mu, has deen fighters in Pakistan on. On different missile systems to take out Russia. So Russia has no love loss for Pakistan at all. So you have the Russia, India and then most recently. And the most significant thing that's taking place with this geopolitical aspect of this is that Trump just orchestrated a giant deal with India. Now, if you want to think about kind of our geostrategic battle taking place with China, what are the core elements there? First and foremost, it's. China dominates our industrialized. We offshore all of our industrialization over to China for cheap labor. So they control all of our medicines. They control. I mean, you remember during COVID what took place? Right. The supply. Supply routes got shut down because China shut down, and we were put in a very difficult national security problem. So what's one way to solve that? By strengthening our. Our ties to India, who has a massive workforce that are ready to join the world economy. Now, I know what you're saying. Yeah. But rut and halt. What about brics? This is where it gets super complicated right? Now. What is brics? Right. BRICS is the alliance between Brazil, India, China, Russia, and South Africa, thereby even complicating this thing even more. Right. Why are they all together? They want to weaken the American dollar. Right. So I know what you're saying. Well, how do you keep track all this? You know, Coach Rudd and. And the hard part is to recognize that much of what takes place in foreign policy, geostrategic policy, you know, you're befriending your enemies in order to gain strength in a particular region. And so there's a lot of that taking place in this. It's very complex. All right, so you've got, you know, Russia, India, you've got China or Russia, India, America, India, China, Pakistan, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, Pakistan going on at the moment. All right. Did you come up with those gdp?

[Jordy]

I sure did. You ready for them?

[David Rutherford]

Yeah, please.

[Jordy]

India's is about 3.8 trillion, and Pakistan's is about 375 billion. And so it's about 10 times larger than Pakistan. India is about 10 times larger than Pakistan. Do you want to know growth rates.

[David Rutherford]

Or population, not populations. But if. What? If you could look up for me, look up the size of the militaries, that'd be great. Okay. Sorry about the interruption, but we, you know, we got to do this to take care of. Our sponsors are the reason why Jordi and I can do this for you. But here's the deal. When I was in Pakistan, and I certainly know India, you know, both those places have the spiciest food on the planet, and I love spicy food. So if you want to turn your food into some awesome spiciness, then go visit Firecracker Farms. Right? I love this company so much, not only because I'm friends with the owner and this family, but more so because the product, Excel itself is awesome. Right? This is a ghost pepper infused salt in these beautiful salt shakers that can take your eggs and take your steak and take your barbecue chicken and. And turn it up a notch so you get that good fire in your mouth. So what I want you to do is go visit Firecracker Farm. Type in the promo code RUT15 that's Romeo Uniform Tango 15 to get your discount so you can start spicing up your food. Booyah.

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[David Rutherford]

All right, so we heard that the economic difference is monstrous. I mean it's radically different. So if you have these strategic positioning taking place where America is hedging its bets against Chinese dominance. Right. We've seen it with the tariffs that are if you've done any economic reports, and I'm hoping to bring Bryce Gill back on to give us a real deep dive on the tariffs and what they, how they've been affecting China recently. So we're pay attention to that in the, in the near future on the Dave Rutherford show. So you have tariff wars. All right, how do we adjust our ability to temper off China's control and a lot of stuff? Well, we partner with India. Then you have. So what do they do? They're going to back this skirmish and potentially try and weaken India's abilities and get them focused on this skirmish or conflict. All right, what you got? What you got for me in terms of size?

[Jordy]

So in terms of the size of India vs Pakistan and their military, the active military personnel, India's got about 1.46 million. Pakistan's got about 654,000. So you're talking about India having twice as many active personnel as Pakistan. And there's a global firepower index in which India ranks 4th globally and Pakistan is ranked 12th.

[David Rutherford]

Okay, that's awesome. All right, next numbers and have these prepped for me as A little teaser to what's to come. Can you look up their nuclear arsenals for me?

[Jordy]

Yes.

[David Rutherford]

Yeah. Thank you. All right, so now that you have a little bit better understanding of the geostrategic relationships, their positioning in terms of GDP growth impacts natural resources, you know, the next one I want to move into is a real problem, and this is the terrorism issue coming out of Pakistan. Now, I can tell you I have a lot of intimate prior knowledge of, of that situation. And what makes it particularly difficult is that the United States has had kind of this very, let's say, tricky relationship with the Pakistani ISI. Right after 911 with the Prime Minister, basically George Bush Jr reached out and said, listen, we're going to deliver the hammer unless you help us hunt down Al Qaeda. And, and as well as those who helped him, maybe Mullah Omar. And they shook their head and said, yep, absolutely, all good. And so what we do, we invaded. And I was there not even a year after that. And, you know, we're going after these guys. What a lot of people don't recognize and don't know that have come out in a bunch of different post 911 kind of early invasion books about that whole situation was the Pakistani ISI was actually airlifting thousands of Al Qaeda members and senior Taliban leaders out of Afghanistan into Pakistan. And so as we're trying to go get the job done, the Pakistani government, their CIA, the isi, was running ops to get these very valuable people, these terrorists, out of Afghanistan and into the protected tribal regions of the Northwest Frontier Province as well as Baluchistan, which is the south, south, what would it be? East region. And it's kind of an old disputed region. A lot of people in that area have always wanted Baluchispan to have its own independence. That's where Mullah Omar was, down near Spin Boldock and Quetta there was. That's where all those routes were going back and forth. And those were the same routes that America used to help get the Mujahedeen in and attacking the Russians back in the 80s. All right, so, you know, Pakistan for many years was a pretty low key, I'm not going to say low key, but they were certainly not as aggressive as they started to become in the late 70s. The most aggressive in 79, they burned down the embassy, the American Embassy. They've, you know, been had these terrorist organizations that have been active and played an active role in international terrorism since kind of really the Islamic Revolution took place. Right. So you have the ISI that is not only supporting and harboring and funding Al Qaeda. Let's just get to my next experience where I actually worked in Pakistan when I was at the agency doing a bunch of different things but at the lead up and after the Bin Laden raid. So that's where I really became to understand the massive connection where I really I think that shocked the world. The true impact of what Pakistan's hidden Islamists were capable of. Not only I mean you could argue that their safe passage for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Bin Laden, but also being able to fund other events with LT now this new organization that's springing out of L A T and then you also have the Pakistani Taliban, that's a different organization out there as well. So the let all of a sudden in 2008 you had the Mumbai attacks. Now this is what a fascinating part of this history that people aren't really aware of. You had a woman come back in whose, whose father used to be the Prime Minister of Pakistan back in the 70s Butu but then his daughter came back in after being ousted. Ran became the Pakistani PM which in her whole thing was she's going to try and maybe not democratize in the way we think about it, but more so open up Pakistan to greater relations with the western world. Well she was assassinated by a suicide bomber and was killed. I think it was 06 when she was blown up. So with the 06 bombing of her that re instituted power and control from the Pakistani military and ISI I didn't understand the magnitude of that power until I went there and worked in 2011. Now post her assassination in 2008 was the Mumbai incident. And for me this was the first time that I really began to pay attention to this Kashmir region. And in that assault what you had which you had 10 members of let infiltrated into Mumbai via old school, you know these little, you know, rafts that they hit the shore, backpacks filled with AKs and grenades. And these men split up and they essentially ended up murdering 166 people in India. They hit a train station that was devastating. Just wholesaling, slaughtering people that were cowering in fear. And then they went to hey, we look up what the hotel, the name of the hotel is the only five star hotel that was attacked in the Mumbai incident. I forget what the name was. And then look up how many people died there for me. But they assaulted this hotel and just randomly started killing foreign visitors and, and, and people and then ended up burning the hotel to the ground. You find that Jordy.

[Jordy]

So this was at the Taj Mahal palace and Tower Hotel.

[David Rutherford]

How many people were killed there?

[Jordy]

A total of 175 people in the.

[David Rutherford]

Hotel and the train or both?

[Jordy]

Yeah, I think it was 175 total.

[David Rutherford]

Okay, so thanks for correcting me on 175 total, both at the train, on the street and then in this hotel. So that really got me to a space where, you know, oh my God. This is a much bigger problem. They utilize these organizations because what the theory is is that the ISI trains, equips and supports these people and their terrorist actions, not only in India, but in the broader area of the region. So you have this terrorism problem. Right. And India has had a very difficult time dealing with it. Well, when Modi came into office, 2014, I think, Jordy, we look up, make sure I'm dialed in on that one. When Modi came into office, he changed his, you know, he evolved. He said, nuh, we're not going to tolerate this anymore. We're going to rise up and really started to institute a very substantial sense of, of. Of. Of Hindu nationalism or populism or religious, I don't want to call it religious dogmatism, but, you know, to get behind the fact that they are profoundly Hindu and they should represent that. Was I right on the date on that?

[Jordy]

2014.

[David Rutherford]

2014. Thank you, buddy. So now Modi gets in there, starts projecting himself around the world as a very significant leader, you know, in this fight between these two. But yet these guys, they just continue to wreak havoc on them. Now, the other major incident that I want to talk about a little bit was in 2019, the Poma attacks in the Jammu and Kashmir region. It was with February 14th. This was a suicide bomber on a paramilitary convoy that killed 40 Indian soldiers. And this was. The group was J E M Jaish e Mohammed. And they had claimed responsibility for this. So, you know, these things are ramping up and every time, you know, they keep going. I think India has had a pretty substantial restraint. Well, they're done as. As I would imagine we would be done as well if we were taking these many terrorist attacks ourselves. So what are they going to do? They're going to launch these strikes. Now, what's taking place in the current engagement is pretty substantial. And what makes. This is the final aspect of my evaluation, if you will. And that is the fact that both of these countries have nuclear weapons. Sorry for the interruption, especially in such heavy content, but I really want to make it known for all of our listeners new and old that on May 31st on our Patreon account, I will be giving a live motivational event. This is an introduction to the last 30 years of my experiencing, researching and delivering the motivational concepts that I believe enable people to succeed and then some insight on what drives failure in the most extreme environments imaginable. So go on over to our Patreon account, avidrutherfordshow. It's a $2 monthly subscription fee where we will be giving extra additional content, but most especially where we will be delivering these live motivational events on May 31, 11 o' clock Eastern Standard Time. Thank you. Back to the show.

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[David Rutherford]

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty over holding my breath as a result of the last several years in Ukraine and Russia and what's taking place there. And in no uncertain terms. All you got to go do is go back to the video and you can watch. Just about every significant Russian leader said, hey, nuclear weapons are on because we understand who's fueling this. We understand where their weapons are coming from, we understand what's at stake, we understand what's going on. So we're not going to play any games. If you don't curtail any missile attacks or attacks into the, you know, into Russia, Mother Russia, then we are Going to be forced to launch a nuclear reaction. Now I don't know about you, but I certainly, I spent enough time listening to people that were not only loosely involved in, you know, the Cuban missile crisis, but certainly understood and felt the effects of what that was, which was, you know, the last time we were very close to nuclear annihilation. Now what's, what's really been amazing for us in Russia is that assured nuclear deterrence, that assured destruction, knowing that, hey, if you go and we detect we are bombs, automatically launch. There's a great book out there. We look up the book. Her name's Ann, she wrote a book on a nuclear war. It'll come up. She's, she's been on Joe Rogan, she was on Sean show. But wrote this really intense, unbelievable book that describes nuclear annihilation. Did you find it?

[Jordy]

Annie Jacobson's book Nuclear War a scenario.

[David Rutherford]

Annie Jacobson's book Nuclear War a Scenario. Do yourself a favor or that's kind of an odd thing to say in it, Jordy. Maybe not call it a favor, but educate yourself is what I'm saying and go read that book. And if you're not becoming a ardent anti nuclear person, nuclear weapons person, then I don't know what will make that. And that's where we're at. You know, these two organizations, these two countries, India and Pakistan, neither one of them have signed the Nuclear Proliferation Agreements. India how, however has stated that we are not a first strike. We're not going to be in that first strike. We will only respond. But Pakistan, and they're cowboys, right? And if they feel the threats too high, they could launch that. So nuclear, even if it's a tactical nuclear strike, even if it's small and you take out let's say 70 million people, that's still going to initiate a nuclear winter because that fallout will obviously that radiation is going to get in and around the atmosphere and cover substantial portions of the earth. Did you find out what those numbers were? What are they?

[Jordy]

I did. So they're about neck and neck. India has approximately 172 warheads and Pakistan has approximately 170 warheads. And it should be noted that Pakistan is producing a little bit more per year than India is. So India's slightly ahead, but Pakistan is growing faster.

[David Rutherford]

Both those countries have stated though by 2020, 2030 or 2020, 2020, it was a recent one, like 26, 27 maybe that they both want to be up to about 400 nuclear devices.

[Jordy]

They want to like almost double or.

[David Rutherford]

Basically double, basically more a Little more double in the next three to five years. That's not good. We don't need these types of countries increasing nuclear arsenals. We need a degree decrease. All right, so now that you have a broader overview, what are my thoughts? What's my opinion? My opinion is that China's already on the horn calling up their folks in Pakistan and telling them, hey, Anne hall, enough of this shit. Stop what you're doing and halt. Enough. Because the disruption to their tactical access, shall we say, to the Indian Ocean, as well as, you know, to their access into both Pakistan, but also more importantly, I think for them into Afghanistan, because they just got all the contracts with, for all their rare earth minerals, in particular lithium, which is massive. And then also it gives them a direct conduit to their partners in Iran. So that's, that's another thing. Whereas I would also be willing to say that people within the Trump administration, maybe Marco Rubio or, or someone is on the phone with Modi and saying, hey, what the hell are you doing? And halt. We just signed a great agreement. Don't you, don't go flexing right now. Let's get you built up. Let's, you know, increase your defenses, increase your military. Let's give you a bunch of other, you know, abilities to shoot down, you know, an anti missile defense or missile defense system. Let's sell you a couple F35s or F16s or whatever it is and slow your roll. Like chill a little bit, right, and stop with what you're doing. So although it seems to be something that could cause and is causing some consternation for the global population, in particular people of the region, I do believe that the influence is so substantial on both of those countries in their current states, particularly the relationship between India and the United States, obviously in Pakistan and China, that this will hopefully be disfused in the next several months. I think they're in these regions, there's a lot of sable rattling, so people don't lose face. But I definitely don't think this is going to escalate now. Making predictions like that, not always the best thing to do. Next thing you know, people will start. If I get too many of these wrong people are start calling me the Jim Cramer of national security and God, I don't want that moniker. So I hope this has been informative to you. I really hope that it's enabled you to get a broader spectrum of what's taking place. Remember, that's really our job on the David Rutherford show. I said that from the beginning. You're always under this tsunami of inflammation. Of inflammation, Right. That's my body. You're under this tsunami of information coming at you from all different aspects and you really don't have that much time. So hopefully I was able to consolidate that and looks like we're right around, you know, 40 minutes. Is that where we're at right now?

[Jordy]

Yeah, just about.

[David Rutherford]

All right, man. So can't thank you enough. What I'd love for you to do, though, we don't ask this a lot. If you could please just like, subscribe, leave a comment to this show or better yet, what really means the most to us is share it with a friend. We would appreciate that beyond measure. We really appreciate all of you, especially, you know, the audience that we're getting by the tens of thousands from the Clay and Buck show. I know I did a hit with them on Friday. I hope you enjoyed it. I know you really did weren't there for my, my, my national security assessment. You were there for my, my take on 100 Navy Seals, or as I think it would only take 17 Navy Seals taken on a gorilla. I know that's why you're here, but we're, we're so happy to have you, Jordy and I feel so incredibly blessed with this opportunity and we promise you a continued deliverable of this type of content that hopefully gets you informed and allows you to have a greater understanding of what's taking place around the world. So again, follow us on all the major platforms out there. Follow us on all the Audio, Apple, Spotify, iHeartMedia app, like comment, share. And then you can also find us on X RutherfordShow. You can find us on TikTok. You can @ the David Rutherford show and on Instagram, Facebook, the DavidRutherford Show. And if you're interested in giving me a follow, I'm on X and Instagram, eamfroglogic David Rutherford Team Frog Logic so. All right, Jordy.

[Jordy]

All right.

[David Rutherford]

We knocked another one out of the park. And I just want to thank you because I finally woke up and started to realize, my God, I have the best executive producer in the business just sitting there waiting to help me as I fought as I get through this. So thank you so much, brother. All right, everybody. God bless you. Take care.

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[David Rutherford]

You're listening to an iheart podcast.