It's a Numbers Game: Pope Francis’ Legacy & the Future of the Catholic Church

Summary

Podcast Summary: "It's a Numbers Game: Pope Francis’ Legacy & the Future of the Catholic Church"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: It's a Numbers Game: Pope Francis’ Legacy & the Future of the Catholic Church
• Release Date: May 5, 2025
• Description: Clay Travis and Buck Sexton delve into pressing news, politics, and current events with intelligence and humor. This episode explores the legacy of Pope Francis and the implications for the future of the Catholic Church.

---

Introduction of Guests

Timestamp: [13:54]
Host: Ryan Seacrest
Ryan welcomes two distinguished guests:

• Jude Russo: Editor at American Conservative magazine.
• Emily Zanotti: Independent writer and author of the Growing Olives in Nashville substack.

Ryan Seacrest:
"Jude Russo is the editor at the American Conservative magazine. Emily Zanotti is an independent writer who I have followed for a very long time. She's super smart about all this, all papal issues and a host of others."
— [13:54]

Pope Francis’ Legacy

Timestamp: [14:25]
Guest: Emily Zanotti

Emily discusses Pope Francis' legacy, highlighting the confusion surrounding his papacy. She notes his accessible and liberal approach but points out the ambiguous messages that have left many Catholics uncertain about the church's direction.

Emily Zanotti:
"His legacy is going to be this sort of long term confusion, ultimately."
— [14:25]

Timestamp: [15:17]
Ryan questions whether Pope Francis’ positive media coverage outweighed its potential drawbacks.

Emily Zanotti:
"I think the most interesting little snippet I've ever seen of him was he was speaking about how if he could do one miracle, he would heal all the children."
— [15:17]

Media Focus vs. Doctrinal Leadership

Timestamp: [16:30]
Emily critiques Pope Francis' focus on media engagement over doctrinal firmness, arguing that his obsession with pleasing various factions has diluted the church's dogmatic certainty.

Emily Zanotti:
"Francis shows the sort of terminus of a certain line of development, which is, this is really cool. We can sort of sweep aside all of the other power bases and interests in the Church, and I can just throw grenades into people's lives directly by talking to the press or, you know, having people livestream me."
— [17:57]

Timestamp: [19:29]
Jude Russo adds that Pope Francis centralized power, undermining traditional clerical authority and bypassing established channels of church governance.

Jude Russo:
"Francis basically pulled that all back into the Vatican both administratively and personally by doing these, you know, speaking directly, often to the media and circumventing what would have been typical channels for the last, you know, 1500 to 2000 years."
— [19:57]

Internal Conflict Within the Catholic Church

Timestamp: [21:02]
Ryan contrasts Pope Francis with his predecessor, Pope Benedict, who advocated for a smaller, more orthodox church. He highlights the generational divide within the church leadership, with older cardinals leaning progressive and younger priests more conservative.

Ryan Seacrest:
"The generational divide between the people leading the church and those coming up through the ranks is seismic. It's very large."
— [24:29]

Timestamp: [25:24]
Emily emphasizes the global diversity within the church, noting differences between the American, European, and African churches. She points out that while the American church remains robust and affluent, regions like Latin America face declining priesthood numbers with increasing Protestantism.

Emily Zanotti:
"It's easy because the American church is wealthy, powerful, relatively robust, relatively large. It's sort of easy to project the way we see things onto the way they see things at Rome."
— [27:03]

Potential Successors to Pope Francis

Timestamp: [30:01]
Ryan lists the leading contenders for the next pope as identified by the media:

• Cardinal Peter Erdő (Hungary): A conservative critic of mass immigration.
• Cardinal Fridolin Mbongo (Democratic Republic of the Congo):
• Cardinal Mario Gretsch (Malta):
• Cardinal Pietro Parolin (Italy): Vatican Secretary of State.
• Cardinal Luis Tangelli (Philippines):
• Cardinal Pizzabala (Italy): Noted for his heroic act of offering his life for hostages.

Ryan Seacrest:
"Cardinal Peter Erdő from Hungary. Fridolin Mbongo from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Mario Gretsch from Malta. Pietro Parolin, the Vatican Secretary of State. Luis Tangelli from the Philippines, and Pizzabala, who is Italian."
— [30:01]

Timestamp: [31:31]
Emily supports Cardinal Pizzabala, highlighting his balanced approach and lack of extreme ideological commitments, making him a strong candidate.

Emily Zanotti:
"Cardinal Pizzabala has been at the head of that organization for a long time... he's very tolerant of the Latin mass... he's very good at being at the forefront of foreign conflict, which, you know, he's been in the center of. In a good way."
— [32:15]

Jude Russo:
Discusses the political nature of the papal election and the institutional chaos within the Vatican, suggesting that candidates like Pizzabala, who prioritize administration and organizational stability, may have an edge.

Jude Russo:
"Cardinal Pizzabala has a compelling case to make that they're administrators first. They will get the fisc in order."
— [35:45]

Global Representation and Institutional Dynamics

Timestamp: [27:48]
The conversation shifts to the disproportionate influence of Italian cardinals due to the Vatican's location and historical wealth.

Emily Zanotti:
"Italians have a disproportionate say because they are the guys right there in Rome. They are the ones who actually have to run the central church."
— [28:02]

Timestamp: [29:26]
Ryan and Emily discuss the Catholic Church's global dynamics, noting the steady growth of the African church and the challenges faced by Latin America.

Emily Zanotti:
"The African church is really where the population of priests is growing."
— [26:32]

Conclusion and Future Outlook

Timestamp: [37:01]
Emily warns against projecting American church dynamics onto the global stage, emphasizing that different regions face unique challenges and opportunities.

Emily Zanotti:
"It's very easy because the American church is wealthy, powerful, relatively robust, relatively large. It's sort of easy to project the way we see things onto the way they see things at Rome."
— [27:03]

Timestamp: [39:23]
Ryan summarizes the discussion, highlighting the importance of leadership that can navigate institutional chaos and maintain the church's global influence.

Ryan Seacrest:
"The new pope has big shoes to fill, as Francis was beloved by the media, by many Western Catholics, and many. And he was scorned by many conservative members of the faith."
— [39:23]

Key Takeaways:

• Pope Francis' Legacy: A blend of progressive outreach and ambiguous doctrinal messages, leading to both increased inclusivity and internal confusion.
• Church Leadership Dynamics: Significant generational and geographical divides influence the direction of the Catholic Church.
• Next Pope Contenders: A mix of conservative and administrative candidates, with individuals like Cardinal Pizzabala emerging as strong contenders due to their balanced approach.
• Global Church Influence: The African church's growth and the stability of the American church contrast with challenges faced in regions like Latin America.
• Future of Catholicism: The election of the next pope will critically shape the balance between tradition and modernization within the church.

Notable Quotes:

• Emily Zanotti:
  "Francis shows the sort of terminus of a certain line of development, which is, this is really cool. We can sort of sweep aside all of the other power bases and interests in the Church, and I can just throw grenades into people's lives directly by talking to the press or, you know, having people livestream me."
  — [17:57]

• Jude Russo:
  "Francis basically pulled that all back into the Vatican both administratively and personally by doing these, you know, speaking directly, often to the media and circumventing what would have been typical channels for the last, you know, 1500 to 2000 years."
  — [19:57]

• Ryan Seacrest:
  "The new pope has big shoes to fill, as Francis was beloved by the media, by many Western Catholics, and many. And he was scorned by many conservative members of the faith."
  — [39:23]

---

This episode provides a comprehensive analysis of Pope Francis' impact on the Catholic Church and the potential directions the institution may take under new leadership. By examining internal conflicts, global dynamics, and the qualifications of prospective popes, Ryan Seacrest and his guests offer listeners deep insights into one of the most significant ecclesiastical transitions of our time.

Transcript

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Welcome back to a numbers Game with Ryan Graduski. Very exciting time of year. Elections are starting now for the 2025 cycle, 2026 cycle all across, which always excites me and I'm sure excites listeners. Ari Sabato he is the director of the center for Politics at the University of Virginia. He's very well respected on his political analysis though I think he's very overblown. I don't respect him that much, but I think he's worth at least putting a grain of salt listening to. It's not because he blocked me on Twitter because I called him out for his big bag of bullshit. But that's besides the point. It's worth just listening to and seeing what he says. But he's very much a mainstream media opinion person. Anyway, he had his first predictions for the first for the 2025, 2026 governor's elections. Wasn't that many surprises. He predicted Democrats have the advantage in flipping the governorship of Virginia and that Republicans can take the governor's mansion in Kansas. He said Arizona and Michigan are the two most competitive states. They're both currently occupied by Democrats. Two very quick things and the only quick things I really think are worth pointing out and putting an emphasis on. He put the New Jersey governor's race as lean Democrat which means it's slightly advantage towards Democrats. But Republicans can come back which says a lot given that they have an 800,000 voter advantage, registered voter advantage Democrats do over Republicans in the state. And then he put New York not as a solid Democrat state, which it typically is, but as a likely Democrat state. And what does that mean is that Larry's looking at the tea leaves of the 2024 election and great realignment that happen and saying yeah, there's these, these deep blue states, especially for governor's elections, which are not as hardline and rigid and how they vote compared to the presidential election. There could be some surprises. And if he's saying that then the mainstream media will probably also pick up on that because he is a mouthpiece for what they all institutionally believe. Kind of interesting. Worth pointing out. Secondly, across the pond there was the election for local governments, for mayoral elections and by elections. That's basically the British version of special elections. They it's what they call a special election. There's no real difference besides called by election anyway they have the local elections, mayoral elections and the by election and the Reform Party, the Reform UK Party led by Nigel Farage, the populist Conservative Party swept across the country and they even picked up one of the most labor pro labor, that's the center left party in in the uk most pro labor seats in the in the parliament in the by election speaks volumes to what's going on in that country. And the discomfort and the growth of the national populist movement, which has not ceded despite Trump being elected. You will always hear people in the media. We had a guest on from Canada who made the same claim, which is just not true. The national populist movement is growing and it's continuing growing across the world, despite how unpopular our president may be in some of these places. We'll see how Farage changes the consensus of that country and what goes on in the future. But it was a very good night for Nigel Farage on Thursday night, Friday morning, depending on what time zone you're in. Lastly, and this is what this episode's about, I want to talk about another election happening in the very short term, but very few people are going to be voting this election, and that is the election for the next pope. Now, as everyone knows, Pope Francis went to his eternal rest on May 21. And the Cardinals are headed to Rome on May 7 to have a conclave to decide the next pope. The man who receives 2/3 majority will be the next head of the Roman Catholic Church, the largest church in the world with 1.4 billion at adherence to the faith. This is a practice, the conclave that started in the 13th century. Now this election will decide not just the next pope, but the future of the Catholic Church. It's no secret that Pope, you know, Francis was much more progressive than his predecessor, Pope Benedict. He envisioned, Pope Francis envisioned a larger Catholic Church that welcomed tons of people, even those who didn't have believe in the doctrine that they had open conflicts with the Catholic Church. He even said atheists go to heaven. Benedict, on the other hand, believed that the Catholic Church should become more orthodox, even if it means shrinking in size. And that we could, you know, it's almost how the monks treated the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages, where they would enclose themselves into their monasteries and then through the century of the Dark Age, come out and save Europe and save European tradition and then reignite the church. There is a lot of conflict going on within the Catholic Church because most younger Catholics, especially in America, most younger Catholic priests are very conservative. They are much more in line with Benedict's vision of the church in some respects. And so are a large number of Catholic priests coming out of Africa. The cardinals who are older, many are baby boomers or silent generation. They are much more progressive than the average 20 year old coming into the church and churchly life. And that is a conflict over the future of the church, over what vision represents it. 80% of the cardinals voting were appointed by Francis that will play a big part in this. Some of the potential successors include Cardinal Peter Erdo from Hungary. He's very critical of mass immigration. He's very conservative. He's probably the most likely conservative who has a real chance becoming the next pope. Cardinal Fridolin Mbongo from the Dominican Republic in the Congo. Not Dominican Republic, the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Everyone who listens to this podcast knows I can never pronounce a name. So forgive me, as usual. Cardinal Mario Gretsch from Malta. Cardinal Petra Pietro Parolin, he's the Vatican Secretary of State. And Cardinals Luis Tangelli from the Philippines. Those are who the media have said are the most likely contenders. Now, of course, someone else can do it, can be appointed pope. There is not a rule that they have to be a current cardinal, though it is very, very likely they will be. But we'll. We'll wait and see. The new pope does have big shoes to fill, as Francis was beloved by the media, by many Western Catholics, and many. And he was scorned by many conservative members of the faith. You know, being a pract Catholic myself, I have a lot of problems with some things that Francis did as pope. I think he was very, very focused on positive news coverage while ignoring issues that were deeply affecting the church because he cared a lot about being in Western media. I remember a couple of years ago, I had a friend who worked for the church and I worked for the Vatican, and they were having the vote to legalize abortion in Ireland. And I messaged them and I said, why isn't France is going to Ireland to make a speech and defend the right to life? And they responded with, will he be laughed out of the country? And I'd be like. And I said, well, you know, Pope Peter died on a cross upside down for Christ. You know, don't tell me about being afraid of being laughed at. You know, you want to be laughed at? Go become a conservative on cnn. Trust me, that's a hard job. They're. They're, you know, take a bold stance. And I thought that a lot of times Francis refused to do that. And it says, you know, a lot of. I think about him, you're not brave from going to. Or going to Africa to talk about climate change or lecturing Hungarians on migrant rights. But I'm not going to pretend that I know all the pieces, moving pieces when it comes to the church or who could be the next pope. So I have two very, very intelligent guests who are coming in to delve into the legacy of Francis and insights on who the next possible Pope will be. So stay tuned for that.

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[Ryan Seacrest]

Jude Russo is the editor at the American Conservative magazine. He's actually my editor when I write there. It's a fantastic publication that I highly recommend listeners check out. Emily Zanotti is an independent writer who I have followed for a very long time. She's super smart about all this, all papal issues and a host of others. You can read her brilliant substack Growing Olives in Nashville on emilyzanatti.substack.com thank you both for being here.

[Emily Zanotti]

Thanks for having us.

[Unknown]

Thank you for having me.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The first question and I'll direct it towards Emily what is Pope Francis legacy?

[Unknown]

I think a lot of his legacy is ultimately a bit of confusion. When it comes down to Pope Francis. I think there is a certain side of him that is very accessible. It's quite liberal in sort of a more meta sense. But I think ultimately towards the end there were a lot of confusing messages and it left a lot of Catholics kind of not quite sure where they were. It's got a lot of warm and fuzzy feelings, but not as many, not as much dogmatic certainty about Catholicism. So I think ultimately his legacy is going to be this sort of long term confusion, ultimately.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Do you think that having so much positive coverage was worth the drawbacks?

[Unknown]

Yeah, I think the most interesting little snippet I've ever seen of him was he was speaking about how if he could do one miracle, he would heal all the children. Right. He was in his office and he's talking about how he would heal all the children. And on the wall behind him in his personal quarters is a piece of art by a man named Marco Rupnick who was excommunicated initially for abuse of nuns. And I mean, not just physical abuse, but also personal abuse, spiritual abuse, abusive, and he was restored to the priesthood under Francis. So it's this ultimate kind of a papacy.

[Emily Zanotti]

Right.

[Unknown]

I love being wonderful to children, but also when it comes to abuse victims, I'm not listening to them. So I think that's kind of the Pope Francis papacy in a nutshell.

[Ryan Seacrest]

What do you think of the idea that he was focused on media over other things?

[Emily Zanotti]

I think that that's certainly the case. And I think that you see this in some of the peculiarities of his approach to the American church. Specifically, he spent a lot of time sort of fixating on traditionalists and whether Traditionalists have, you know, people who prefer the traditional Latin Mass have some sort of scheme going on against him. There are not actually that many Latin Mass goers, but they are disproportionately represented in American Catholic media, especially online. And so he spent an awful lot of time and a lot of institutional clout micromanaging the way that these people go to Mass and the conditions under which they can sort of practice the type of Mass that they want in a way that was unprecedented even in the immediate post conciliar era.

[Ryan Seacrest]

What she was saying is correct. There's a million. I think the essence are there are 1 million Latin mass goers in the world, and the of 1.4 billion Catholics, there's 1 million in the whole world today who ascend the style of Mass. And Pope Francis spent a lot, a lot, a lot of time focusing on which, when they can go, who could. Who could perform it where it could be an enormous obsession for such a minority of Catholics. Anyway, sorry, Jude, go ahead. I just want to explain for the non Catholics.

[Emily Zanotti]

Yes, no, I appreciate that. And that's something worth keeping in mind here as we sort of go down the rabbit hole. So I think that, you know, a lot has been made of the fact that Francis really did chase headlines, but I think that too little has been made of the fact that he also really read them. He was in some ways an extremely online Pope, the way that, you know, a certain president is extremely on Twitter. And that was weird. You know, one of the basic problems facing the modern papacy, especially from about 1940 on, is the problem of mass media, which allows for a sort of centralized control within the Church that was previously undreamt of. You know, what does it mean when the Pope can, you know, get into headlines or speak directly through radio? This is something that the church, you know, administratively has had a hard time sort of figuring out. And I think that Francis shows the sort of terminus of a certain line of development, which is, this is really cool. We can sort of sweep aside all of the other power bases and interests in the Church, and I can just throw grenades into people's lives directly by talking to the press or, you know, having people livestream me. Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And then famously would say that whenever the press misinterpret him, he doesn't speak English. So that's why that is really their fault. Right.

[Emily Zanotti]

And this ambiguity is. Ambiguity is where personal power thrives. Right. The fact that he kept things ambiguous and confused meant that he was. That he was the ultimate sort of judge or arbiter of what was actually going on personally.

[Unknown]

So I think that was a massive centralization of power. We entered an era where we talked about clericalism quite a bit, that Pope Francis was the end of the clerical era, which means that, you know, you're giving all of the power up to the priestly class or the bishops or the administration. And instead essentially Pope Francis took that power, put it back into the Vatican and often dictated from on high what should have been a pastoral idea. So like the Latin Mass, you know, if your, if your flock would prefer a more traditionalized Mass, then that should be your call. Or if you would like a personal prelature, then that should be your call. But Francis basically pulled that all back into the Vatican both administratively and personally by doing these, you know, speaking directly, often to the media and circumventing what would have been typical channels for the last, you know, 1500 to 2000 years.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, so the thing about, the thing about it is very interesting because Pope Benedict, which is Pope Francis's predecessor, spoke about a vision of a church that was smaller in size but more, more, I guess, document eternally, you know. Yeah, more observant, more religious, more, more adherent to the doctrine, but a smaller church, a smaller than a 1.4 billion dollar church. Pope Francis, on the other hand, sat there and said, no atheists go to heaven and let's. They did. He did a lot of like, touch and go outreach to gay communities. He did a lot of, he did a lot of outreach towards just people who made it as easy as possible. You know, there used to be a thing like, even with Pope John Paul ii, where the, the Easter, the Easter Christmas Catholics and the cafeteria Catholics who pick and choose which part of the religion they want to believe in, which is, you know, probably most Catholics. But though Pope Pope John Paul II did amazing major outreach to them, Francis was like, let's go past the cafeteria and see if anyone's in the gym and they'll be included in it too. The next pope has a big choice in this, in the idea of what kind of church is he going to reform? And I want to go over the idea of who's going to replace him. But before I do, what would be, I mean, is there anyone left with a serious chance who has the vision that Benedict did of a smaller, more, I guess, devout church than one that Francis had? Emily, why don't you go first and we'll go to Jude.

[Unknown]

There are certainly cardinals in the church who have more of a Benedict style approach. I think Burke and Sarah, whether they have a chance of becoming pope is another matter altogether. They're certainly at the very edge of voting. Both are 78, 79. There are certainly other more conservative style cardinals who have the opportunity. We have also, we have to remember that even while Francis was trying to reform everything, these reforms never really happened on his watch. The things that they wanted quite badly, the synod and Senateality and the idea of getting married priests in the Amazon and women deacons, they fell flat because ultimately the administration also didn't want them. We have a younger, more conservative church, and that's just a reality that the conclave and many of these cardinals who are, you know, of advanced age are going to have to reckon with in the next couple of years. We've seen all of these studies that say the priests that are coming into the church now are more conservative, they're more traditional. Even if they're open to Novus Ordo, even if they're open to, you know, sort of a more liberal approach to some of the dogma, they are not straying from that very much. And so any pope that comes into this situation is going to have to wrangle with that. And when you talk about the Latin Mass and traditionos custodes and putting the feet down on the Latin Mass or the foot down on the Latin Mass, it really grew the Latin Mass more than it did anything else. It sort of energized that same group.

[Ryan Seacrest]

It was a Barbra Streisand effect, for sure.

[Unknown]

It was a Streisand effect of a papal Barbra Streisand effect.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Papal Barbra Streisand effect. That'll be the name of the episode, right? Yeah. So, yeah, but I think Emily is, Emily is bringing up an important point that I mentioned earlier in the, in the taping is, is that there is like, like the Canadian elections, for those who paid attention, there is a generational divide between baby boomers and silent generation. More than just baby boomers with silent generation cardinals and baby generations who are more liberal. They are more in the Francis vein, younger priests. Anyone signing up, especially from a western country to be a priest at this point in this day and age is somebody who is very orthodox or pretty orthodox. So that generational divide between the people leading the church and those coming up through the ranks is seismic. It's very large. So, Jude, what do you think about that?

[Emily Zanotti]

Well, so I think that there are two things worth talking about here. The first one is being careful to not to project the conditions of the American church on the rest of the rest of the world. The priesthood is certainly growing more conservative and younger and the church generally more conservative than younger in the United States. But this does not necessarily obtain in like Latin America where young people are increasingly becoming Protestant, where, you know, you have trouble getting anybody into the priesthood, but people that you do have coming into the priesthood are sort of a weird mix because of the conditions that obtain in Latin America. So it's something that Americans, I think tend not to have an appreciation of is just how healthy, robust and relatively wealthy the American church is, how we are in much better condition than the Europeans or the South Americans.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The African church is really where the population of priests is growing well, and.

[Emily Zanotti]

That'S an interesting condition in Europe that we'll have to see how it plays out over the next however many years. But a lot of the priests who actually do parish work in France are from Africa. They're coming in usually from French speaking portions of Africa. And basically the way that it works is it's, it's like a period of indentured servitude. You know, they, they do their seminary work in France and then they have to work on the ground for 10 years to like pay off their seminary.

[Ryan Seacrest]

That's a great prison term. It's either 10 years in France or, you know, a hard labor, whatever comes first.

[Emily Zanotti]

Right, yeah. So I think that, you know, it's very easy because the American church is wealthy, powerful, relatively robust, relatively large. It's sort of easy to project the way we see things onto the way they see things at Rome. But despite the composition of the current, you know, weirdness of how the current set of cardinals is composed, which I think we'll probably talk about in a moment, they are still primarily European, like the plurality is still from Catholic Europe. They are.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And Italy has the single largest country representation.

[Emily Zanotti]

Yes, as God intended, but as three.

[Unknown]

Italians shall always be.

[Ryan Seacrest]

As three Italians talk about global representation.

[Emily Zanotti]

Well, and this is actually, this is actually a very good segue to talk about. The other thing that I think is worth keeping in mind, which people who don't, you know, doggedly follow Vatican politics, which is say, like normal, healthy, well adjusted people don't necessarily account for, which is that this is a political process. And as in any political process, what dominates our particular real material interest groups. Right. The reason that the Italians have a disproportionate say in what happens is they are the guys right there in Rome. They are the ones who actually have to run the central church. It is a very wealthy church in Italy for various historical reasons. And so they get a bigger say than the Africans do. Because the Africans, even though they have a lot of people and you know, they have a lot of buts and pews, they've got no money. They've got very little sort of infrastructure as far as like borders that have assets go and then go out and do things elsewhere. They are becoming stronger because of programs like we talked about, you know, where they go and are actually supplying the manpower grow out of these sailing, you know, core Catholic territories. But they, you know, they are not strong institutionally yet.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So I want to just go to who could possibly be his successor because this is what everyone wants to know. Not that we have special insight to it, but I think there is some logical people that, you know, if you spend time online, especially to non Catholics who want to get clicks, they share a lot about Cardinal Sarah and I am a big fan of Cardinal Sarah, but he's too old and too conservative for the position.

[Emily Zanotti]

I actually think that his age counts for him. I don't think we're gonna want. I don't think.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Too contrarian for the position.

[Emily Zanotti]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Great admirer of his. I think he's. If you don't know who he is, Cardinal Robert Sarah, he's an African cardinal. His writing is beautiful and smart and very intelligent and very profound and you could read him. But I just think he has. There are. I'm going to read some names and then we'll just talk. If I don't have any of the names and you somebody else, you know, let me know. There are the leading contenders according to the media which take it for was Peter Ardo, the cardinal from Hungary. Fridolin Mbango from Dominic from Congo, Mario Gresh from Malta, Pietro Paralyze, the Vatican's secretary of state Luis Tangalli from the Philippines and Pizza Balla, who is Italian but is from the Italian is from. They represents like Israel.

[Emily Zanotti]

Right? That's okay.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Okay. So any of those the leading contenders in your opinion, is there any and is any of them a transformational person? I know there's a lot of interest behind Pizza Ball at first for his name, but two because I mean he did do a very heroic thing which was he did offer his life for that of the hostages. Which is more than you can say from some people doing something bold and saintly almost in today's day and age. But Emily, do you. Is there anyone that you personally would love to see and then two would likely guess is the leading contender.

[Unknown]

My family is deeply involved with Pizzabala largely because my husband is A knight of the Holy Sepulcher. He's a papal knight. So Cardinal Pizzabala has been at the head of that organization for a long time. So I am a big fan. I do think he is an interesting story in opposites. Very much of Latin. You know, he's very tolerant of the Latin mass. He's very much more of a conservative in those terms, but then also very worldly. He's very good at being in. At the forefront of foreign conflict, which, you know, he's been in the center of. In a good way. Yeah, in a good way.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yes, in a good way. He's been a good actor in a foreign. Not a bad one. Point.

[Unknown]

I would be most worried about someone like Tagley or Perolin. I think Parolin is. Yeah, Tagley is very progressive. I do not think he's in the front running simply because even Pope Francis kicked him out of a high level job at Caritas, which is one of the service organizations or social justice organizations within the church. He was booted out of there by Francis. So he was not popular even with that wing of the Vatican. Parolen is certainly a possibility. He's certainly done quite a bit of public work. But in the last couple of days, he's also seemingly turned everybody off and then had a medical emergency. So I feel like whatever he may have been at the top, he is no longer. So it's also anybody's game. We've had situations in the past that, you know, the Holy Spirit has descended on somebody in St. Peter's Square and they're like, oh, hey, guess you're the Pope now. It is entirely possible that someone could come out of left field. We all thought Pope Francis had come out of left field, but he was sort of working his way up the ranks for a long time. I wouldn't anticipate that we're gonna get any real surprises here, but it really is anybody's game, right?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. It's not going to be some. Some pastor from the middle of Kansas who is just all of a sudden nominated. It's not a Disney movie. Jude, what do you. I know you had a thumbs up for Pizza Ball as well. Why do you like him and who else do you see as a leading contender? He very like pro migrant stuff, right? Do I have that correct? Okay, kind of.

[Unknown]

So you're not going to get away from like, they're all going to be a little pro migrant.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Erdo is from Hungary, is very much not pro migrant. Neither is Carlos or either from Africa anyway. But. Go ahead, Jude. Sorry.

[Emily Zanotti]

Yeah, no, I think that. So as I said, as you're talking about, there are sort of material conditions that affect the election. Right. The sort of regime analysis of the Francis years is that this was a disco. There was constant institutional reorganization. The Vatican is pretty much broke. Like nobody really wants to talk about it. But you know, there is a reason that people who try to audit the Vatican keep getting like shuffled off the scene. And the whole system works pretty badly when you have institutional chaos and no money. So I think that Pizza Balla and some of the other front runners have a compelling case to make that they're administrators first. They will get the fisk in order. They will stop this, you know, constant reconstitution of Rome, the Roman court into dicasteries, you know, changing the heads of congregations or departments, you know, on a constant rol polling basis. So I think that he has not unlike a lot of the sort of dauphins of the Francis era, including Perowin and including Taglay. He does not. He was not associated with any really high profile blunders. So what counts against Perowin is that he was instrumental in the Vatican's deal with the Chinese Communist Party to try to bring the church out from the underground in China, which was a huge catastrophic failure and was extremely embarrassing for everybody involved. So peril in the problem is he can't really detach himself from Francis failed policies because he is such a Francis guy. People are going to say it's going to be more of the show that we've had for 12 seasons. Nobody wants that. Whereas Pizza Bala has sort of kept his nose clean. He doesn't have, you know, extremely overt ideological commitments that are going to turn anyone off. And he's young, I actually think counts against him.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I think he's in his 40s or 50s.

[Emily Zanotti]

I think that he's 62, which is.

[Unknown]

Still really high, which is young for a cardinal.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yes, okay, sorry, 40s. He's in his 60s. I'm doing a real good at my research.

[Emily Zanotti]

Anyway, while he's, while he's, you know, he's remembered for this sort of courageous act. He's also been critical of Israel's war in Gaza, which, you know, is actually a fairly popular position in the world. Even in the United States, which is the most pro Israel country. Support for Israel has cratered 20 points over the past two years.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Here's my, my, my, my attention towards him is this. And I reached out to someone when Ireland had their vote to legalize abortion. I reached out to someone I know who worked for The Vatican said, why isn't the Pope going there? And they said, well, he'll be laughed out of the country. And I said, and Peter was hung upside down on a cross and you're being laughed out of a country if you're going to be the moral authority for 1.4 billion people and have to show something. I mean, I don't know the man at all, but I do believe if, let's say Hamas said, sure, you're going to step in for all these hostages, I think he would have stepped in and offered his life. That is a tremendously courageous, brave thing to do that you don't see not only in regular life, but you don't see from a lot of leaders and a lot of lead. A lot of leaders in the world won't even put their kids in the military, you know, in a time of peace, let alone put them.

[Unknown]

And you have to remember that his constituency is the Christians in the Holy Land, which are not welcome really in Gaza, but they are also not welcome really in Jerusalem. So he has a really difficult position and he was very good at articulating where he fell, who he was there representing. And there's a lot of talk about continuing on Francis legacy in peacemaking. He stayed in Gaza with his constituency for a long time and bombs are falling on him. I mean, the church in Jerusalem was a last refuge or the church in Gaza was the last refuge for Christians in that area. And he spoke regularly to Pope Francis. And so when you talk about the legacy of Francis carrying on, he has an argument to make that he was there at the forefront of some of the biggest conflicts or in the biggest conflict in the modern era. And he stayed in the middle of it and he managed it.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, and that's a great point. I mean, that's why a lot of love was given to the British royal family who stayed in London while the bombs were falling. I guess it's a good, it's a good analogy. I have to, we have to close up the interview. Jude, if there's anything else besides Pizza Ball, is there anybody else that you would, you would envision as a leading contender?

[Emily Zanotti]

Well, as already mentioned, I think that heroin is pretty much DQ'd. I think Erdo has a better chance than any of the other so called Conservative candidates because he has been a good administrator, he was a good soldier during the Amoris Laetitia clown show, which, you know, has been forgotten amid all the other clown shows of past 12 years. Zupi is somebody we have not mentioned. Who is.

[Ryan Seacrest]

He's from Italy as well.

[Emily Zanotti]

He's the Patriarch of Milan. He has a compelling non case for being an administrator. He's non ideological. He also sort of weirdly got a lot of USAID money. So when we talk about external pressure groups on the church, you know, I think that the State Department, at least circa 2022, had anointed its man. So I think that he sort of has a compelling argument to be the ideological detente candidate. He gets along with both the gays and the Latin mass weirdos. He has run a very large charity organization. He's like Francis, but also actually gets along with people. He's Italian, which counts for him. He's not grotesquely aged, but also not too young either. So I think Zupy, if you're looking for, you know, the sort of. If you're a degenerate and you're looking for the most mishandicapped bet you could make.

[Unknown]

Dark horse.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. Your gamble Hope, which I highly recommend, but I'm sure, I'm sure there's a betting market for it. Guys, thank you both for being here so much. This has been a lot of fun. Definitely not the usual podcast for listeners. You got everything from the Papel shri is in effect to different conspiracies. The State Department in the room. Emily, where can people go to get your stuff if they want to read more from you?

[Unknown]

If they want to read more from me, Twitter is the easiest place. It's Xenati Emzanati on X and on.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Substack and Jude, American Conservative magazine, where people go on your social media.

[Emily Zanotti]

That's right. The American Conservative is. Is the real place where the important stuff happens. Twitter is where I retweet pictures from frog and toad. So. But yeah, the American Conservative, which is a great magazine, has contributors like Ryan Dusky.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah.

[Emily Zanotti]

So you know, everybody please go read, subscribe, donate, do your thing, share our articles. Great.

[Ryan Seacrest]

All right, thank you guys so much for being on here and this is awesome. Thank you.

[Emily Zanotti]

Thanks, Ryan.

[Ryan Seacrest]

You're listening to It's a Numbers Game with Ryan Graduski. We'll be right back.

[Jude Russo]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

Ask Me Anything segment and if you want to be part of it, please send me an email on questions about politics, you know, culture, entertainment, anything and I would love to sit there and talk to you about it. Email me ryanumbers game podcast.com that's Ryan numbers plural numbersgame podcast.com and send me some questions and I would love to sit there and bring them on the show. I got a odd question from my from a listener who said you mentioned that you went to see the Rolling Stones when you were a teenager and smoked the worst pot of your life. Which is true. I what musical act would you see if you that is no longer with us? I guess that is dead Dead singer I would like to see Janis Joplin, Elvis Presley, James Brown or Amy Winehouse probably would be one of them. If I'm in the mood for jazz, I guess either Monk or Chet Baker or something like that because I do love jazz. But that would be it. Cool question. Interesting. Loved it. If you like this podcast, please like and subscribe on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcast. Wherever you listen to your podcast, give us a five star review. You're feeling generous and I will speak to you all on Thursday. Thank you.

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[Ryan Seacrest]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.