← The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
It's a Numbers Game: The Biggest Political Winners, Losers & What’s Coming Next in 2026
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- [00:00]
Tom Rogan
This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.
- [00:05]
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- [00:35]
Season two of Unrivaled basketball is here and the talent is unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. Don't miss as Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher and every athlete shines. Unrivaled basketball season Season 2, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO Max support for.
- [01:06]
The show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com Disclosures A new year.
- [02:15]
Is on the horizon and your 2026 savings start here. Right now you can access the Washington post for just $2 every four weeks. Head into the new year with six months of savings at the special intro rate. After that it'll cost $12 every four weeks. Cancel anytime you'll get unlimited access to trusted journalism that helps you understand the year ahead and the world around you. Now's the perfect time to subscribe because great habits and great savings start together. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart that's washingtonpost.com iheart and start your year informed with the Post.
- [02:51]
The world's best ski and snowboard athletes are chasing medals. Now you can follow their every move. Join Insider, the official US Ski and snowboard fan loyalty program, and get premium viewing at World cup ski events, exclusive athlete meetups, discounts from brands you love, and a custom welcome gift mailed direct to your doorstep. This winter. Show your support as they race for the podium. Head to Insider, usski and snowboard.org and join today.
- [03:23]
Ryan Grim
Welcome back to Numbers Game with Brian Graduski. Thank you guys for being here. It is the end of the year. It comes of snuck up on me way faster than I thought it was. I thought I had like one more episode. So I will do a special episode and then beginning of next year I promise you guys. One way to bring a political consultant like myself on and answer any questions about running for office. That will have to go back to the following week into next year. I will get that episode done though for you guys. I look forward to it. If you have questions about question about running for office or what that's like or about the inside track of working in politics, email me ryan@NumbersGame podcast.com Ryan@Numbers floral numbers game podcast.com and I'll get to that. Put in the headline campaign episode. I love to answer that when we get to it. So for this episode I thought we'd have a little fun. I was a guest on a show called McLaughlin Group 12 times. Now for the kids in the audience who don't know, Sundays used to have big talk day on political news right there be for the whole morning would basically be political talk shows. Heavy hitting political talk shows and it used to be matter a lot what they were saying on Sunday news Sunday talk shows about politics and one of those was in the McLaughlin Group. It had been around for decades by the time that I had joined. John McLaughlin was a, you know, kind of icon in in the media circuit at that point that time and there was four different chairs and one was Pat Buchanan's, one was Eleanor Cliffs, one was Clarence Page and the fourth was, you know, moving around different people and I was one of the people and I was there 12 times and it was actually so great because in most network studios like CNN or Fox or msnbc. You know, there's a hundred different makeup artists and they're all, you know, they get you in the chair, they get you out chair, and they get you moving as quickly as possible. At McLaughlin Group, it was a little bit more on the. On the smaller budget. So they only had one makeup artist, which was actually great because it was one makeup artist for five people. And you had to show up two hours early because you have to sit there and get makeup, but allowed for a lot of downtime to talk to Clarence, Eleanor and Pat. And like, Pat was like an icon to me, so I got to sit there and kind of chew his ear off for an hour plus 12 different times. And Eleanor was also fascinating because, like, she was not the friendliest person in the world, but every once in a while she would say something and my ears would just kind of perk up. So one day Eleanor casually mentions to me that her son had made a documentary about her, her brother in law. And I said, oh, who was your brother in law? She goes, oh, Montgomery Clift. I was like, the actor. Like, that's like. I was raised by my grandparents. I know old Hollywood. So I was like, that's pretty wild. Did you ever, like, meet, like, Elizabeth Taylor? She's like, no, but I had dinner with Marilyn Monroe one time and like, that was like, fascinating. And they were just, you know, people of a particular age who have lived so much and have such interesting stories. It was like heaven for me because I would just ask them questions about their life, you know, for the last couple decades. And Pat's life was like no one else's. So I loved it. The McLaughlin group had a year end episode where they would give like, the best of, like the best, like, politician, the worst one. All these questions. And I always desire to be on that episode and I never was. So this episode's kind of special because I have on with me two of my friends. My friend Claire Potter, who is a historian and professor. She's a wonderful friend of mine. She's politically progressive, she's very, very smart. I'm having her on kind of fill up the Eleanor Cliff role. And Tom Rogan, who was the replacement for John McLaughlin and kept that show going for a couple more years. Tom is my other guest on the show.
- [06:44]
Claire Potter
He.
- [06:44]
Ryan Grim
He was with me every time I was on McLaughlin Group, obviously, and he was wonderful and he's super smart. So this will be a very fun episode. Looking back, a retrospective, 2025, who was the best, who was the worst? What did we learn from it? All that's coming up next.
- [07:00]
Advertisement Voice
Did you know Microsoft has officially ended Support for Windows 10? Upgrade to Windows 11 with an LG Gram laptop voted PCMag's Reader's Choice Top Laptop Brand for 2025. Thin and ultra lightweight, the LG Gram keeps you productive anywhere, and Windows 11 gives you access to free security updates and ongoing feature upgrades. Visit lgusa.com iheart for great seasonal savings on LG Gram laptops with Windows 11. PCMag reader's choice Used with permission. All rights reserved.
- [07:31]
Season two of Unrivaled Basketball is here and the talent is unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. Don't miss as Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher and every athlete shines. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO.
- [08:00]
Max support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com Disclosures A new year.
- [09:11]
Is on the horizon and your 2026 savings start here. Right now you can access the Washington post for just $2 every four weeks. Head into the new year with six months of savings at this special intro rate. After that it'll cost $12 every four weeks. Cancel anytime you'll get unlimited access to trusted journalism that helps you understand the year ahead and the world around you. Now's the perfect time to subscribe because great habits and great savings start together. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart that's washingtonpost.com iheart and start your year informed with the Post.
- [09:46]
The world's best ski and snowboard athletes are chasing medals. Now you can follow their every move. Join Insider, the official US Ski and snowboard fan loyalty program, and get premium viewing at World cup snow ski events, exclusive athlete meetups, discounts from brands you love, and a custom welcome gift mailed direct to your doorstep. This winter, show your support as they race for the podium. Head to insider.usski and snowboard.org and join today.
- [10:17]
Ryan Grim
So for today's episode, I have two wonderful guests. My good friend Claire Potter, who's a historian, former professor and a writer, and my friend Tom Rogan, who was the host of McLaughlin Group when I was on it. He is a writer at the Washington Examiner. Tom, I'm so excited because I always wanted to do this episode when you were the host and it just never happened. But it was always fun being on that show. So first category that I want to ask is who was the biggest winner of the year? Tom, who would you say your biggest winner was?
- [10:46]
Tom Rogan
So I'm going to go with the president of Syria, Ahmed Al Shara, because of his ability to really, in the space of less than 12 months, translate himself from a jihadist into someone fettered over by President Trump, by the Europeans, by a lot of different world leaders. And as much as Syria has some really significant sectarian issues, issues still with ISIS attacks, as we just saw, has moved that country into a direction that I think a lot of people thought would be impossible for him. So he's my big winner of the year.
- [11:15]
Ryan Grim
Wow. Okay, Claire, who's your big winner of the year?
- [11:17]
Claire Potter
So, Ryan, I'm going to go with Lachlan Murdoch. After a multi year succession drama that actually create television series called Succession, Lachlan Murdoch did what he should have done at the very beginning, what his father told him to do, which was buy out all of his siblings and take control of the Fox Broadcasting Network. It was a really good move. It means it won't be sold for parts by some kind of interloper. And much as I kind of abhor a lot of stuff that comes out on Fox, it does actually create a conservative center for media against which everyone else can test themselves.
- [11:54]
Tom Rogan
Yeah.
- [11:54]
Ryan Grim
And actually is basically almost, almost everyone in conservative media came out of Big conservative media, big personalities came out of Fox. My biggest winner actually this year was Gavin Newsom. You know, he left, ended 2024, being kind of embarrassed. He was holding the bag for Joe Biden till the absolute very end. Kamala Harris was a longtime political rival who kind of looked like she had finally edged him out after, you know, almost a decade of the two of them kind of going at it. And at the end of it, he. At the beginning of the year, he was trying to figure himself out. He was a podcast host. He was having on Char Kirk and telling him how much his kids liked him. And then at the end of the year, he kind of found his identity as the biggest national fighter against Trump. He has a lot of unifying support among the Democrats in the largest state in the country, certainly keeping an eye on for 2028. So for me, he is the biggest winner of the year.
- [12:42]
Tom Rogan
Biggest loser, Tom Ali Khamenei, the leader of Iran, aging, has been rumored to be dying for coming on a decade now, hanging on in there, but I think. I think he's sort of losing steam. The loss. Exactly. Exactly. The loss of deterrence power that Iran has suffered in the last year under him because of the US And Israeli strikes, really, I think, taking a hammer blow to the strategic credibility of Iran, to the significant benefit, obviously, of the Israelis, but also the Sunni Arab monarchies led by Saudi Arabia. So a big loss there. Iran, I think, has never looked weaker under his premiership.
- [13:23]
Ryan Grim
How about you, Claire? Who's your biggest loser?
- [13:26]
Claire Potter
Well, I'm going to say Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House. I think Johnson came into the job as sort of the person nobody wanted, but everybody thought could hold the MAGA coalition together. The only way he's been able to do that is by basically having the House out of session over and over and over again and preventing his members from bringing legislation to the floor. There's some things I want to talk about a little later in the broadcast, but I think Johnson has really shown that he didn't have the political chops for this job and that he's not ambitious for it and he's not ambitious for himself in the conventional ways that the Speaker's job requires.
- [14:03]
Ryan Grim
Biggest loser for me is Elise Stefanik. She went from being a possible leader of the Republicans in the House, a potential presidential candidate, a massive juggernaut fundraiser, a candidate for governor, and now she's going to be retired before 45 from politics. A series of bad mistakes from Elise Stefanik, but a huge rising star for over a decade and it is over with a whimper, not a bang. Tom Best politician of the year Marco.
- [14:29]
Tom Rogan
Rubio, from being someone who MAGA didn't trust, thought was an outsider, clearly part of the President's most inner circle. Now trusted, liked, it seems by the MAGA movement, still liked by the non MAGA Republicans, as played a very careful game there by choosing when to come out and make sort of pointed statements, but ultimately by, I think, consolidating the notion that he is a loyalist to the President.
- [15:00]
Ryan Grim
How about you, Claire? Best politician.
- [15:02]
Claire Potter
Well, how can I help but say Zoran Mamdani, he came from nowhere. Four year veteran, and I use the word veteran loosely, in the New York State legislature. He organized young people. I think he really took a lot of leaves out of the MAGA playbook by saying, you know, if you can get young people and you can hold them together and put them to work for you, you can win. And he beat Andrew Cuomo, who is one of the most horrible people on the planet. Nobody liked him. Lots of Democrats voted for him because they were afraid of Mamdani. And Mamdani just like skated through. It'll be interesting to see how he governs, but definitely he's the best politician of the year.
- [15:41]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, my best politician, we did not coordinate this, by the way. My best politician was also Zora Mandani. Don't love his politics, but it is undeniable that his upstart assemblyman, with really no real legislative accomplishments to his name, becomes the mayor of the largest city in the country. Started a national conversation on affordability and he not only defeated Andrew Cuomo, which is important, but a lot of other elected officials in New York, including the speaker of the New York State Senate, sorry, New York City City Council, rather very, very, very prominent politicians. He defeated them all in kind of blowouts that no one saw coming. So I think Zorman Donni was the best politician. Who was the worst politician, Tom?
- [16:20]
Tom Rogan
For me, Keir Starmer, the leader, the UK Prime Minister, leader of the Labour Party, has a very significant majority in the UK Parliament, but because of a few significant backtrack decisions that I think show, you know, weakness over leadership, he is now presiding over really catastrophic opinion polls. Nigel Farage surging likely to be the next Prime Minister. Admittedly not until 2029. UK economy suffering, so so came in with a lot of potential power, but because of some poor decisions has really jeopardized that. And now the Talk in the UK is of a leadership challenge sometime in 2026.
- [16:58]
Ryan Grim
Claire, worst politician.
- [17:01]
Claire Potter
Well, okay, Ryan I was going to say Curtis Sliwa, but I've decided I like the man too much. And the real reason I thought he was the worst politician is because he's such a nice guy. I'm going to choose as a Democrat, Jack Schlossberg, who I find humiliating. I don't know what he thinks he's doing. I don't know why he's running for Congress. He has no experience doing anything. And he also seems to be nuts. And he's another one of those Kennedy people that shows up and says, vote for me. And the question, of course, is why? Why would we vote for you? Why? Because I am Jack Kennedy's grandson. No, I don't think so. He's a terrible politician. You should get out of the race.
- [17:39]
Ryan Grim
Well, my worst politician was Prime Minister Keir Starmer of the UK after having his huge majority from the Labour Party, he has an approval rating that is around the same as Prince Andrew in just 18 months. I'm not joking. I actually looked that up. Him and Prince Andrew have close to the same approval rating, worst of any politicians. 1977 in the UK and his, some of his polls have the Labor Party coming in fourth place in the next election, which I don't think he's going to last the next election unless he just calls one, because I think that he's in serious trouble. Most defining political moment of the year, Tom.
- [18:16]
Tom Rogan
I think the Trump tariff announcements with that big board out on the, you know, in the Rose Garden, the shock that, that caused around the world, the, the continuing impact that has had in the United States for, for good or ill, it was a profound moment. Just, I think, you know, really in that sense of shock and, and sweeping the rug out from under the kind of post Cold War free trade consensus.
- [18:45]
Ryan Grim
How about you, Claire? Most defining?
- [18:48]
Claire Potter
Well, I'm going to say the refusal of the Indiana legislature to run a redistricting referendum in early December. I think it was a real turning point for Trump. Every second term president has to stave off that moment in which he becomes a lame duck. And I think the amount of energy that Both Trump and J.D. vance put into Indiana into trying to pressure them to do that. And the fact that the Republicans said no, I mean, like, more Republicans voted against it than voted for it. They didn't even need the Democrats to vote. And so I think that's a signal to everybody that says, I think Trump's losing control of the party. I think he's losing his hold on the party. And I think Indiana was a pivot point.
- [19:32]
Ryan Grim
My most defining political moment was Liberation Day. Trump's announcement, the tariffs, the yo yos of tariffing, not tariffing people better or worse. It has become the larger political conversation around the economy, around trade. It has kind of changed the neoliberal census since the 1980s, certainly. And the media's had a field day with it. It's become the defining economic conversation around everything, whether it has something to do with tariffs or not. Kind of found their way in this, in the conversation. And it also became a huge albatross for polling around Donald Trump's neck. There's really no going around it. Most charismatic. Tom.
- [20:09]
Tom Rogan
I say this as someone who is, I think, the only American journalist actually listed under a terrorist arrest warrant, as well as sanctions. So bear that in mind. But Vladimir Putin is my answer to this. Wow. You look at the conduct of the war in Ukraine, Havana Syndrome, which I've done some investment of journalism still doing, which I think we will find is the Russian intelligence services doing some very bad things against the United States and obviously against Ukrainian civilians. And yet, whether it be President Macron at the moment or President Trump, still an ability to woo with those KGB Red Banner Institute skills, a lot of different people and maintain relevance. Narendra Modi, Xi Jinping, you know, Putin is certainly not down and out. And to think, you know, just a couple of years ago that there was that coup attempt and people were saying, Putin is done or he's dying of an illness, I don't think so. Putin is there and we have to say whether it is from his intelligence training or something else, part of that is the charisma he's able to apply.
- [21:08]
Ryan Grim
Well, Claire, most charismatic.
- [21:11]
Claire Potter
So I'm gonna go with Graham Platner, who is challenging Susan Collins in Maine. Susan Collins has been impossible to dislodge. Mainers love her. Graham Platner is an oysterman. The party came to him and said, we'd like you to run. He's part of a new breed of Democratic candidates, which is get white working class people. And let's just say Graham does, in fact, own his own oyster business. Janet Mills came into the race. The very popular governor went after him immediately. This whole thing about the tattoos that he got in Croatia came out. I thought he handled it splendidly. He came out, he owned it. He said, you know, when you are a soldier, you actually sometimes do some really screwed up things and. And it's over. So I think he's got a lot of savvy. I think people like him. You should see his meetings. They're full of enthusiastic people and he's running from the center.
- [22:02]
Tom Rogan
Right.
- [22:03]
Ryan Grim
I think he's going to be the youngest person in Maine. I think he's under 75 in the whole.
- [22:07]
Claire Potter
Right, exactly.
- [22:09]
Ryan Grim
My most charismatic is Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni. She has managed to become the most powerful leader in Europe in a country and the most stable leader in Western Europe, which in Italy, I mean, that was a joke within itself. It has never had a stable government. She's been in for about three years and she's already the 15th longest serving prime minister ever. If she survives to the next election, she'll make the top 10 in Italian history. She's become a lion in the EU and the entire West. Best comeback, Tom I'm going to sort.
- [22:44]
Tom Rogan
Of play off what you said earlier. Ryan and Gavin Newsom. I think the ability to translate this sort of not sure what he's doing into a really successful social media profile, clearly generating Buz in the Democratic Party. You know, the guy has reshaped his political narrative and looks, you know, potentially strong going into 2028.
- [23:05]
Ryan Grim
How about you? Best comeback Claire?
- [23:07]
Claire Potter
I'm going with Mikey Sherrill. How can I not go with Mikey Sherrill? You know, she was at a neck and neck with a two time candidate who looked to have a lot of juice behind him. We had rising Republican registrations in New Jersey as you've been documenting Ryan and Mikey. Sheryl just nailed it 13 points and, you know, got voters back from Trump and made the Democratic Party sit up and say, wait a second, maybe our old ways of looking at things aren't going to work anymore. So yay, Mikey.
- [23:36]
Ryan Grim
Cheryl, her pollster, was in a sauna with one of my friends and he told her she's running for president. 28.
- [23:41]
Claire Potter
Just no women, please. Please just no.
- [23:45]
Ryan Grim
My best comeback is not a politician. It is Ly Liam and Noel Gallagher of the band Oasis. After 15 years of absolutely hating each other, the bro came back for a massive tour around the world. I mean, how could you not root for that comeback? Most original thinker, Tom.
- [24:01]
Tom Rogan
Yeah, I think it has to be Donald Trump again, you know, whatever you think of his policies, the consistent ability to invent in one day, you know, we don't know. Right. A great example of this in the foreign policy sense. What is he going to do tomorrow on Ukraine? Is he going to blame Zelensky? Is he going to blame Putin? You know, what, what might he do? And you know, whether that's the Chinese thinking about Taiwan or Kim Jong Un. Or obviously domestically, you know, his ability to invent in any one moment and, you know, as much as it might seem to be now depleting his ability to corral the MAGA base around him, I think is fascinating and a testament to his original thinking.
- [24:37]
Ryan Grim
Most original thinker CLAIRE Well, I'm going.
- [24:40]
Claire Potter
To go with two people who work together, Thomas Massie of Kentucky and Ro Khanna of California, for reviving the use of the discharge petition in the Epstein case. Out of 563 discharge position petitions that have been filed since 1931, only 26 of them have gotten a floor vote and only two of them have become law as and one of them is this Epstein discharge petition. And they really managed to point it out that what is standing in the way of bipartisanship in Congress is the leadership. And they did it in a way that did not attack their own leadership. They just did an end around it. But I think we're going to see more discharge petitions in the next year. I think there are a lot of Republicans who want to start writing legislation and I think there are a lot of Democrats who might work with them on that rather than seeing all the lawmaking coming out of the White House.
- [25:31]
Ryan Grim
My original thinker is big balls on the other 19 and 20 year olds who are part of DOGE and they just listen sometimes. The thinking constantly in the federal government is you can't do things and they prove sometimes you just can. They they decrease the federal workforce by 10% in under one year, which is pretty unbelievable considering Reagan. You've heard that it doesn't happen. Most stagnant THINKER TOM Bernie Sanders in.
- [25:57]
Tom Rogan
The sense that the political theater that was attached to Bernie Sanders, the Bernie Bros, obviously is clearly giving way now to aoc, to Mamdani. There is a new political narrative that I think Bernie Sanders has been unable to become part of beyond the sense as the sort of godfather for that sort of democratic socialist movement. But again, I think clearly a changing of the guard there and it's something that perhaps he might not be enjoying.
- [26:24]
Ryan Grim
That's an interesting take. How about you, Claire?
- [26:27]
Claire Potter
Chuck Schumer. Chuck Schumer. Chuck Schumer. He's done, he's cooked. Stick a fork in him. You know, I think the again, the old Democratic thinking that you need people who know the system to just sit there putting their fingers in the dike so that the flood doesn't come through, I think that's over. And I think he can't think his way out of a paper bag. I think MAGA Moves too fast for him, which is of course what Donald Trump counts on and he doesn't, he doesn't know how to get away from it.
- [26:53]
Ryan Grim
Most stagnant thinker for me is Tim Waltz, the governor of Minnesota who has blamed the crisis of Somali refugees abusing taxpayer dollars on white supremacy. He's using white supremacy like a lot of people have for decades. He actually handed an award out called Refugee of the Year award to one of these people who had scammed the system. And he is just kind of floundering in his third, in his attempt for a third term. Who knows if he can win because if it's a good year, but he's not going. I don't see a Tim Wolves for President sign coming up on anyone's house anytime soon.
- [27:25]
Tom Rogan
Capitalist the year Tom Nvidia's Nvidia's Jensen Huang. You know, whether you think of that in a good way, and I think there are certainly questions to be asked, whether his desire for profit is overwhelming his patriotic duty in terms of pushing to sell the most high end or some of the most high end chicks to China. Clearly has, has been able to get President Trump on side and steamroll the Nvidia train forwards. So, so I would say that. And yeah, I should do a clarification. I am, I do have some stocks in Nvidia, but I think it's a profound mistake that he is.
- [27:59]
Ryan Grim
If you could have invested a couple years ago, I mean, if we all could have, we would have been doing a lot. Oh, you did?
- [28:06]
Tom Rogan
I did. But he should not be selling those chips to China because American sailors, if we go to war with China, will die because of that.
- [28:12]
Ryan Grim
So, yeah, this is true. Nvidia.
- [28:15]
Tom Rogan
I do not make that as a mock.
- [28:16]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, absolutely, Claire. Capitalist of the Year.
- [28:19]
Claire Potter
All right. I'm going with Bari Weiss. We're talking about somebody who set herself up as a contrarian when she was in college. She goes to the New York Times as the sort of conservative affirmative action hire. She leaves the New York Times with everybody hating her. She starts a sub stack. She is now sitting on $150 million payout and is in charge of the CBS newsroom. Granted, she's having some problems, but I have never seen a young person move up the ladder so fast, make money so fast and position herself as a leader in the industry and wants to.
- [28:55]
Ryan Grim
Host every television episode on cbs, apparently.
- [28:58]
Claire Potter
Yes. And we'll give you Stephen Miller's telephone number if you want it.
- [29:02]
Ryan Grim
You know, my Capitalist of the year is Todd Graves, the founder of Raising canes. They surpass KFC as the third largest chicken fried chicken food chain in the country. And he's going to be one of the top 100 richest Americans next year, likely. So I mean I from Louisiana, born and bred American. I'm pretty, it's pretty astounding where you can go. Honorable mention Tom yeah, I think the.
- [29:25]
Tom Rogan
Continuing cursion of drones across Europe, we saw it obviously in New Jersey in December last year, but, but now it seems to be a lot in Europe and, and some of these, you know, seem to be very strange, hard to bring down even with the most advanced technology. Sort of plays into this UFO subject a little bit, which I've always been quite interested in. There's a lot of, a lot of, a lot of craziness in that subject. But look, whether it's drones or something else, clearly we have a inability to defend airspace. And as the Ukraine war has shown, this technological, technological evolution is, is going to create some seismic effects, I think, across the political and military dimension.
- [30:05]
Ryan Grim
Claire Honorable mention.
- [30:06]
Claire Potter
My honorable mention goes to measles. We've had these measles outbreaks. We've had more people diagnosed with measles this year than we have in any previous year. Measles has become the fulcrum around which the MAHA movement is turning. And the reason I would like to see it covered more is I think the majority of people who are very, very anxious about the effects of vaccines and reluctant to give their children vaccines are really unaware of the kind of damage it does. And people talk about, you know, measles killing you, but in fact it also makes you deaf, it makes you blind, it wrecks your heart. I mean there's just a range of things that can happen to children who get measles. And I would like to see more coverage of the disease itself and treat anti vaxxers as though they were thinking breathing human beings who really want the best for their children.
- [30:56]
Ryan Grim
That's great. My under my honorable mention is the utter collapse of the birth rate in South America and Latin America as a whole. No nation in the whole of Latin America has a birth rate at fertility level. A bunch of countries are already seeing population shrinkage. Puerto Rico is the fastest declining place in the entire Western hemisphere. Cuba is following and other countries will follow there soon after. There's also a big push in most parts of Europe to bring the descendants of European immigrants back from Argentina and Brazil to Europe to deal with their youth crisis. So honorable mention, my ear. Best political theater.
- [31:32]
Tom Rogan
The reaction to the death of Charlie Kirk as much as there was a motivation on some, clearly to try and present themselves into the public domain and use it to their own advant heritage, there was a pretty bipartisan sense of revulsion, you know, again, whether the motive was perhaps not as morally pure with some as with others. I think it was a positive moment for the country that everyone could. I mean, it should have been right. And it shows how bad I think things become that we. I would even say this, but. But it was a moment of unity, and I think that's, that's positive.
- [32:02]
Ryan Grim
Best political theater.
- [32:03]
Claire Potter
Claire I'm going to go with something a lot lighter, the unraveling of George Santos. You know, it was very helpful for we Democrats who just like, devastated after the last election. And all of a sudden all this Santos stuff starts coming out and it's just bonkers. It is like the most bonkers reality show. And more and more weird stuff kept coming out about the dogs. He had that whole thing about 9 11, and I was like, wait a second, didn't that happen to Ryan's mother? Did it happen to your mother, too? And, you know, it was so much fun, and it was so much fun to watch it play out. And I'm not even sorry that Trump pardoned him and got him out of jail. I'm sorry that the people to whom he owes hundreds of thousands of dollars aren't gonna league. But on a certain level, it was totally worth it, the whole thing.
- [32:49]
Ryan Grim
George told people that we were childhood friends and I met him when I was like 34 years old. Like, told many people me and him grew up.
- [32:56]
Claire Potter
He's a sociopath, but he's such a kind sociopath.
- [32:59]
Ryan Grim
Yes, that's a hundred percent true. People stopped talking to me afterwards. Like, how could you not tell me you grew up with him? I said, that's another lie. Best political theater for me was Zoram and Donnie's debate. For the New York City debate, when they asked him, what country would you visit first? As if the mayor of Des Moines is asked what country they're going to visit first. And he said, I'm going to stay in New York City was a great political theater moment. Everyone else was saying, different countries. It was very, very smart. It went viral, and mayoral debates very rarely ever go viral. Tom.
- [33:27]
Tom Rogan
Worst political theater, the Trump Zeletsky meeting in February. I thought, you know, clearly Zelensky made a huge strategic error in turning up in a suit and not playing to Trump's ego. And a good leader has to do what a good leader has to do. In the moment. But I thought it was very unseemly and unsightly for a country, a democratic country that's under attack, to be hectored in that way. And I think played to a lot of discomfort among American allies and supporter of the best American values around the world.
- [33:57]
Ryan Grim
Worse political theater. Claire?
- [33:59]
Claire Potter
Well, everything that Kristi Noem does, and I would say the high point was appearing in front of Scott wearing a fake military uniform, $1,000 gold Rolex. I mean, the woman has has absolutely no sense of what it means to be out in public.
- [34:14]
Ryan Grim
And her wig probably costs more than that. Oh, my God. My worst political in the theater theater was Trump meeting with Mandani. And at the end of it, Trump's talking over the media, not letting Mandani answer. And when he sits there and says, you know, is he is he a socialist or an Islamist or whatever the question was, and he said no, which ended at least upon his campaign. And then when Manani was asked a question about Trump being a fascist, he said, don't answer that. You can call me that. Horrible political theater on behalf of the Republicans. It was definitely a head scratcher where I couldn't understand where it was going. Most underreported story Tom, you think the.
- [34:52]
Tom Rogan
The Chinese encirclement of Taiwan and increasing pressure against the Philippines and the South China Sea and the Philippines exclusive economic zone, ramming ships, doing a lot of things, and that matters. And why is it underreported? Because the US Is a treaty defense ally of the Philippines. We are obliged to, under treaty law to come to their aid. And the Chinese are very aggressively pushing the line there. One miscalculation, one choice could spark a conflict that, frankly, a lot of people would not have seen coming.
- [35:20]
Ryan Grim
Well, I didn't see that. I didn't actually know that at all. Claire Most underreported story I was going.
- [35:25]
Claire Potter
To say I have to stick close to Tom. He clearly knows a lot of things that I don't, and I feel like such a lightweight next to him. But the most underreported story for me is what happened to the QAnon network. It has dropped out of the news completely. QAnon, when it formed as QAnon, had come from a bunch of other conspiracist tendencies in United States history that had been around for decades, some of them over a century, and now all of a sudden, Nobody's interested in QAnon anymore. And I actually want to know what they're thinking, what they're doing, how they're handling the dithering about the Epstein files and I think that's reporting somebody needs to be doing.
- [36:03]
Ryan Grim
Wow. Most underreported story for me is the ongoing fight in the Republican Party over AI. Republican governors in deep red states like Arkansas, Florida, Indiana, Tennessee and Texas are pushing for more AI regulations. Every poll shows a majority of voters are want more AI regulation. And President Trump's second most amount of executive orders after tariffs are on deregulating AI. He is the AI accelerationist president. He wants as much AI possible business as possible and it is causing a real conversation over the issues of federalism and the future of technology technology in our country. Most over reported story Tom slightly weird.
- [36:39]
Tom Rogan
One here, I think, but the continuing obsession on Jamal Khashoggi anytime we talk about US Saudi relations, it's a media fixation for obvious reasons. He was brutally murdered by Bin Salman. Bin Salman's supporters. But look, international politics is the sum of more than one man. There's a lot more to the US Saudi relationship than that, for good or ill. And I think it's a good example of media, of a challenge in the media that an obviously emotional point is being translated into too much coverage. Is it relevant? Yes. Is it the biggest issue? Not by a long shot.
- [37:12]
Ryan Grim
Most over reported story for you, Claire?
- [37:14]
Claire Potter
Well, once again I come in as the Phil Donahue to Tom's William F. Buckley, but I'm going to go with Olivia Nuzzi and Ryan Lizza. The most absurd breakup of the year. Journalists all over the place wetting their pants over Olivia having sex of some kind with RFK Jr who not win the presidency. And Ryan Lizza insisting that there would be no RFK Jr. If Olivia had just played it straight and exposed him and so on, when actually he's just mad that she left him. Ridiculous, stupid story. And children, if you ever break up with anybody, do not put it on your substack. Never, never, never.
- [37:58]
Ryan Grim
It's so crazy. My most over reported story is the ICE raids. The ICE raids and how they've been characterized as this lawless kidnapping of individuals is a lot of it's overblo alone. A lot of it is anxiety inducing for no reason. And it has been though highly effective for President Trump to promote self deportations. He will have the largest decrease of illegal population since Dwight Eisenhower. Boldest political tactic has to be the Trump tariffs.
- [38:27]
Tom Rogan
Again, you know, the, the, the sense of just sweeping that carpet out from under people the rug and, and you know, sticking with it. I mean look, you know, there have been some deals, there was expectation, the trouble truck that the president would significantly backtrack. He hasn't done so he's tinkering around the edges. I mean, you know, again, a pretty seismic political decision that has defined the first year of his presidency.
- [38:48]
Ryan Grim
How about you, Claire? Boldest political tactic, I'm going to say.
- [38:52]
Claire Potter
Democrats deciding to contest every single congressional district in Texas, they've never done this. And it is not only showing a fighting spirit, but it is the kind of thing Howard Dean was talking about when he was chair of the Democratic party back in 2006, which is if you don't, you don't fight everywhere, you are, in fact, going to lose. And I hope what this is showing is the Democrats are starting to abandon this business of like, you know, trying to game out winning the House by three seats or four seats or five seats. Go big or go home, guys.
- [39:25]
Ryan Grim
Right. Well, that's. And you also see which trends, how districts are moving when you contest everywhere. My best, my boldest political tactic was when President Trump's decision to bomb Iran, but not entering a prolonged war, working a broker peace in Israel and Palestine, his entire Middle east policy. President Trump has been very bold, very active, and probably the one of the most effective presidents on Middle east strategy in history.
- [39:48]
Tom Rogan
Worst political tactic, Tom, Look, Emmanuel Macron still the. The ramifications of his decision to call that election last year. We see the utter dysfunction of France in terms of the government's inability to manage the parliament to pass laws. And France has a big problem, the trajectory of the aging population and very generous entitlements. I don't know how they get out of it. And Macron is, you know, reaping the whirlwind if that decision lasts.
- [40:15]
Ryan Grim
Yet worse for the power, I'm going.
- [40:18]
Claire Potter
To say Mike Johnson keeping the House out of session for the entirety of the shutdown. That was almost eight weeks that he sent his members home. He's losing control of his caucus in my point of view. And I also think it is a bit of a template for how MAGA might actually just fall apart because those people did not get elected to just sit in their offices until Mike Johnson calls them and tells them to come and vote. Yes. And so I think there is significant distress in the Republican Party among certainly representatives. But I think it's spreading to the Senate that they are simply not allowed to solve problems that they see in front of them and that their constituents are complaining about.
- [41:00]
Ryan Grim
My worst political tactic was in Europe. It was by Geertz Wilders, the head of the Freedom Party, the national populist party this man has spent 20 years, years trying to get political power. He finally got it and he dissolved the coalition in one year. What happened was, was that the other nationalist parties all gained more seats from him, splintering the vote and he's out of power again. 20 years of literally nothing for one year. People do not like it when you're politically unstable and gears, filters, botched everything that I couldn't believe that he was spending decades to build. It was over. Sorry to see you go tomorrow.
- [41:34]
Tom Rogan
I think I've maybe stealing from people here, but Rob Reiner, obviously, the, specifically the way he responded to Charlie Kirk's death. A lot of conciliation and you know, I thought as an addendum, as a lot of people did, including in maga. Interestingly, the president's reaction to Rob Reiner's death I thought was pathetic.
- [41:51]
Ryan Grim
How about you, Claire? Sorry to see you go.
- [41:53]
Claire Potter
Well, I'm going to say my friend Susan Brownmiller, who I'm writing a book about, a biography of her, she was a radical feminist in the 1970s and 90s, wrote a landmark book about rape against our Will, Men, Women and Rape, which really transformed the landscape when it came to attending to sexual violence. Susan died in May at the end of a very long and useful life. And I think we, and I are going to miss her a lot.
- [42:18]
Ryan Grim
Well, mine is Charlie Kirk. I mean, I know that it's kind of redundant because it was obviously the most high profile political one, but I knew Charlie a little bit. I got to know him since he was 18 years old, a little by little. And he always got better over time and very few people in politics do. And he was a pleasure. So. And he was nicer to me than I was to him. And I did not always deserve it. Person of the Year, Tom Friedrich Merz.
- [42:39]
Tom Rogan
The German chancellor replacing the most overrated Western leader in terms of Angela Merkel. And then obviously Olaf Scholz, a kind of wet rag leader in Germany, bolstering Germany's stance in Europe's defense, increasing defense spending, doing all the things that President Trump has been insisting Europe should do for years. Still seems slightly on the outside with the administration, but if you were judging him by what Trump wanted, you would think he would be getting a state visit. So, Frederick Musk, Person of the Year.
- [43:10]
Claire Potter
Claire, I'm going to say Susie Wiles, first female chief of staff in the White House. She took a Trump campaign that was, as usual, totally incoherent, made it run, helped him win. She got to shiv Ron Desantis on The Way to Washington, which is always fun to watch. And I think Susie Wiles has probably created more coherence in the West Wing than we will see without her. And I would predict, predict that she's going to be gone before the midterms. I think that Vanity Fair story was her way of paving her way out of the White House. But she's definitely Person of the Year for me. I admire her a great deal, despite our many differences, and she is a really boss chick.
- [43:54]
Ryan Grim
Well, my Person of the Year is Marco Rubio, a man with 700 jobs who managed to sit there and become probably the most, not only popular member of the Cabinet, but also believed to be the most competent member of the Cabinet and has done a lot and. And may end up remaking foreign policy decisions, helping remake foreign policy decisions throughout Latin America and the Middle east and Europe. So not many people could say the same. Macro prediction. Tom, last question.
- [44:19]
Tom Rogan
Yeah. No end to the war in Ukraine. Anything the Ukrainians will agree to with President Trump, which I think was sort of nearly there, the Russians will not agree to. The sides are too far apart in terms of what they will accept. So. So I think that war continues. How Trump deals with that obviously uncertain.
- [44:38]
Ryan Grim
Claire, macro prediction.
- [44:40]
Claire Potter
I'm going to say that the number of states that age gate or require parental consent for social media will at least double in 2026. They're 10 or 12 now. I think we'll probably get to 24 or 25 and we're going to see a move for federal legislation on age gating. I think Australia's move has been really big. Australia has shown that it can be done and that there is the technology to make it happen. And I think it's one of the few that you see real bipartisanship on and that that bipartisanship will start in the state houses, but that it will trickle upward into Congress.
- [45:14]
Ryan Grim
My macro prediction is with the rise of AI and the increasing need for our grid to produce more energy and to hold more energy, there is going to be a big push for nuclear energy in the next year. Coming from the White House. It is going to be one of the few ways that we could sit there and meet the demand, which is going to grow exponentially over the next three years. Thank you guys so much for doing that. Was so much fun. This was definite. Definitely a dream of mine to sit there and be able to be part of those kinds of conversations. And for the record, Tom, I was Pat Buchanan's favorite guest. Was I not?
- [45:45]
Tom Rogan
You really were. And you know, I I think as well, I was trying to think of one of the areas there where we could get Pat in. But no, Ryan, you absolutely were. And, and Pat would say, you know, I'm not going to do Jim Ansel, a colleague does a great Pat impression, but he would say, I like that guy. You know, that Ryan, he's good. Let's bring him back. So yeah, no, you really were.
- [46:06]
Ryan Grim
Thank you so much. Thank you guys both for doing Go get to read more of your stuff, Tom.
- [46:11]
Tom Rogan
I mean, just Google. Tom Rogan, Washington Examiner Go there and you can enjoy navigating the minefield that is our website. I probably shouldn't say that, but you know, I definitely shouldn't say that. But yeah. Anyway, Tom Rogan, a Washington examiner and.
- [46:24]
Ryan Grim
Clare, where can we go read more.
- [46:26]
Claire Potter
Of your stuff so listeners can buy my book Political Junkies, which is a history of political media from the Cold War through the Trump administration. And then I have a substack that is of the same name, Political Junkies, that has podcasts attached to it. And then you find me all over the place at the New York Times, at the Yale Review, and so on and so forth.
- [46:46]
Ryan Grim
Where's your Twitter to read all this?
- [46:47]
Claire Potter
Tenured Radical is my Twitter handle and I'm@clairpotter.com is my website.
- [46:54]
Ryan Grim
Great. Thank you guys both for being here.
- [46:56]
Claire Potter
Thanks for having me.
- [46:57]
Tom Rogan
Thanks, Ryan.
- [46:59]
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- [47:29]
Season 2 of unrivaled basketball is here and the talent is unreal. Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more are back to redefine the game. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO.
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Is on the horizon and your 2026 savings start here. Right now. You can access the Washington post for just $2 every four weeks. Head into the new year with six months of savings at the special insurance rate. After that, it'll cost $12 every four weeks. Cancel anytime. You'll get unlimited access to trusted journalism that helps you understand the year ahead and the world around you. Now's the perfect time to subscribe because great habits and great savings start together. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart that's washingtonpost.com iheart and start your year informed with the Post.
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- [50:01]
Ryan Grim
Now it's time for Ask Me Anything. If you want to be part of the Ask Me Anything segment, email me ryanumbersgame podcast.com that's Ryan numbers game podcast.com plural numbers email me any questions. I'll answer anything. This comes from Forest. Forest says, hey Ryan, Love the podcast. I have two questions for you. Feel free to ignore if they've already been covered. I highly doubt they have. Forest My first question is on Ellen Greenberg's murder in Pennsylvania and the alleged quote unquote cover up by governor Josh Shapiro. Not to get into the weeds, but there's a popular narrative on social media that Ellen couldn't have stabbed herself 10 times in the back of the neck. But if you look at the autopsy pictures Those stab wounds are very largely shallow in my opinion is consistent of self inflicted wounds. Do you have a take on this? I did not know about this and I am very embarrassed I didn't because you know I love a true crime and I love the possibility of, of an interesting take on true crime. I'm going to look this one up forest and really get to the bottom of it in my own personal investigations. I, you know, yeah, if it's a shallow wound, although it would hurt so much would you keep doing. I guess if you're intent on killing yourself you'll do anything but also do you know if you, you've enough times to actually I guess bleed out it Very, very interesting. I'm gonna look up the Ellen Greenberg murder and look this up more thoroughly. I It's also very odd for women to stab themselves. It's weird for anyone to stab themselves in the back of the neck. But women especially women usually die. Suicide involves for women most likely to be pills and stuff. It's not usually a stab wound. It's not really a stab wound for many people. It's mostly either guns or pills. So I will look that up though. Second question is my thoughts on Michael Tracy's report on the Epstein case and specifically the lack of credibility surrounding the accusers. I personally view his reporting as being polled surprise worthy but curious of your thoughts. So I know Michael Tracy a little bit. We did a debate in the city about the Trump administration. I think that he is very smart and very thorough. I think that he's. I don't know if he's completely right but I think that he's on to something. There are several of the accusers of the on in Epstein, in the Epstein case. Not all of them but several whose allegations you can kind of poke holes at. Some have sat there and said that they were mistaken by who they actually saw, when they actually saw them. It's, it's listen, it happened a very long time ago for many of these women. Some of them were under influences like drugs and alcohol. Whether that was for some or not. Some of them were very, very young. There's also things with trauma being so young that they kind of, kind of don't maybe remember clearly. And also they're meeting men. Who knows if these men are using the actual names. You know, you wouldn't know who a wealthy person is when you're 15 years old just because that they're wealthy. And this is also pre Internet. You're not looking this up on your phone in real time. So I could see how a type of social contagion, for lack of a better term, by some victims to want to accuse how high profile people could be there. I'm not saying that they all are, but I'm saying I could see how you, you've been through this horrible thing and you could point that it was, you're part of the, you know, the most horrific thing by the most high profile person. I could see that Michael Tracy's done a decent job at saying, you know, these victims, some of them are not being completely honest. So I don't know if he's, I don't, I don't wouldn't go as far as what Michael's been saying though, about it. But I do think that he is, is. I think he's very smart and I think that he's very thorough in his investigative reporting. So I like him a lot. He's from New Jersey. He's a good person. His parents, his mom came to the debate, so she was very lovely. Anyway, that's this episode, guys. I will see you guys Thursday beginning next week. We start three episodes a week, so that'll be very exciting. Please like and subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any of them, like on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or on YouTube because now we do videos. Thank you much so guys, so much. I'll see you guys on Thursday.
- [54:00]
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- [54:30]
Season 2 of unrivaled basketball is here and the talent is unreal. The best women's players on the planet are running it back with even bigger moments and bigger stakes. Don't miss as Paige Beckers, Nafiza Collier, Kelsey Plumb, Brianna Stewart and more take the court and redefine the game. This isn't your regular season. This is unrivaled, where the pace is faster, the energy is higher, and every athlete shines. Unrivaled basketball season two, sponsored by Samsung Galaxy, tips off January 5 on TNT, TruTV and HBO.
- [54:59]
Max support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform. For those who take it seriously on Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with a It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com Disclosures A new year.
- [56:10]
Is on the horizon and your 2026 savings start here. Right now you can access the Washington post for just $2 every four weeks. Head into the new year with six months of savings at the special intro rate. After that, it'll cost $12 every four weeks. Cancel anytime. You'll get unlimited access to trusted journalism that helps you understand the year ahead and the world around you. Now's the perfect time to subscribe because great habits and great savings start together. Go to washingtonpost.com iheart that's washingtonpost.com iheart and start your year informed with with the Post.
- [56:46]
The world's best ski and snowboard athletes are chasing medals. Now you can follow their every move. Join Insider, the official US Ski and Snowboard fan loyalty program, and get premium viewing at World cup ski events, exclusive athlete meetups, discounts from brands you love, and a custom welcome gift mailed direct to your doorstep. This winter, show your support as they race for the podium, head to end insider.usski and snowboard.org and join today.
- [57:15]
Tom Rogan
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [57:18]
Ryan Grim
Guaranteed Human.