It's a Numbers Game: The Truth About AI Data Centers: Electricity Costs, Water Use & Local Impact

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: It's a Numbers Game: The Truth About AI Data Centers: Electricity Costs, Water Use & Local Impact
Host: Ryan Graduski
Guest: Maria Curie, Tech Reporter at Axios
Date: May 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the often-overlooked but rapidly growing issue of AI-powered data centers in America. Host Ryan Graduski aims to parse fact from spin on topics like increased electricity costs, water usage, local impact, tax incentives, health, and environment, featuring an in-depth interview with Axios tech reporter Maria Curie. The tone is balanced, inquisitive, occasionally skeptical, and geared toward local communities grappling with the rapid rise of mega data centers.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Setting the Stage: AI Hype and Data Center Backlash

• Purpose/Intent
  • Ryan opens by acknowledging both the promise and anxiety surrounding AI, including concerns about privacy, cybersecurity, and the real-world physical footprint needed for AI advancement: data centers ([02:41]).
• Host’s Position
  • “I don't know everything about AI and I'm trying my hardest to separate spin from both sides and corporate narratives and hyperbolic dooming.” ([02:41])
  • Not anti-AI, but questions the implications of unchecked data, cybersecurity, and infrastructure, especially as companies and governments race ahead.

The Local Data Center Boom – Context and Stats

• Rapid Expansion & Public Sentiment
  • Data centers are not new, but their scale and impact are growing dramatically, with 42% of the U.S. population either living near a data center or near a site under construction ([08:41]).
  • Data centers are moving from urban (87% of existing) to rural (67% of new projects), driven by land costs and expansion needs.
• Public Opinion Polling
  • Broad local opposition: 71% of Americans oppose local data centers, a figure even higher than opposition to nuclear plants ([15:00]).
  • Top public concerns: increased electricity costs (72%), water use (64%), and noise pollution (41%) ([17:45])
  • Economic optimism is low: only about a quarter believe that promised technological or economic benefits will outweigh the downsides.

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Detailed Interview with Maria Curie (Axios)

[Interview begins at 21:17]

1. Electricity Costs

• Is it really making utility bills rise?
  • Maria Curie: “The truth is complex because it is such a hyper-local issue… the grid there in each place are so different.” ([21:44])
    • Example: In Loudoun County, VA (highest concentration of data centers), industry claims prices could fall with more customers. In less established states (e.g., NJ), the theory doesn’t match reality—prices are going up everywhere, including VA. ([21:44–24:25])
    • “You can't discount the fact that the AI boom is creating a massive need for electricity and that is having an effect on the grid...” ([24:25])
• Bottom Line: Data centers are driving up demand and may contribute to price increases, but many factors are at play (inflation, regulation, wars).

2. Water Use

• Do data centers really suck local resources dry?
  • Evaporative Cooling: Hyperscale AI data centers favor the cheapest cooling method: water evaporation, especially in drought-prone, hot areas ([25:28]).
  • Not a One-Time Problem: “So the cheapest way for hyperscalers to cool their servers…is through evaporation. So this is the type of cooling that requires the most water.” ([25:28])
  • Moratoriums being considered are often just “a temporary pause to study how these data centers are going to impact the real economy versus just projections…” ([26:50])
• Fires & Catastrophes?
  • No direct evidence that data centers have caused forest fires—but constructing new transmission lines in fire-prone areas could increase risk ([27:41]).

3. Tax Subsidies and Fiscal Impact

• Who is footing the bill?
  • 38 states offer tax incentives to attract AI data centers; biggest spenders are Virginia, Texas, Ohio ([28:20]).
  • These policies are being reevaluated as the true economic benefit vs. giveaways is unclear.
  • “The problem…the debate comes into play when we think about state level tax incentives and is that then worth everything that is being handed out?” ([30:05])
    • At the hyperlocal level (e.g., Loudoun County), tax revenue beats out the subsidies; statewide, it’s murkier.

4. Qualified Immunity & Legal Recourse

• Do data centers have a unique legal shield?
  • No, says Curie. “There isn’t anything that could prevent a community from suing.” ([31:13])
  • Lawsuits are costly for individuals; companies can outspend local resistance ([31:24]).
  • Few cases of proven harm to health/water—yet. “Not to my knowledge. Not that I know of yet. But if it hasn't happened already, Ryan, I think it will…” ([32:31])

5. Health and Environmental Effects

• Known Health Risks?

  • Curie: “On the radiation front, I have not seen scientists really come out on a consensus…But there’s also just what we experience as human beings. It's loud…and if your water is coming out brown, that's not a good thing.” ([33:50])
  • Comprehensive, long-term studies on new hyper-scale centers are lacking.
  • Host: “How far behind on the studies?”
    • Curie: “These particular types of data centers, this scale and this magnitude are [new]...we are moving so fast as a society...I would be surprised if there were studies underway or already out there.” ([34:46])

• Wildlife Impact

  • Main issue is habitat destruction due to land use; not much research yet on further ecological ramifications ([35:23]).

6. Jobs & Economic Development

• Jobs Created?

  • Construction phase generates a few thousand jobs, but permanent positions are few—sometimes under a hundred per center after the initial project ([36:32]).
  • Local governments increasingly negotiate for better workforce development incentives, given the leverage created by high demand for land and resources ([36:32]).

• Do centers build their own infrastructure?

  • Yes, companies pay for much of it, but whether that fully offsets externalities is debated ([37:47]).

• Key Takeaway for Local Communities

  • “Local governments actually have a lot of power at this point, more than they've had in a very long time.” ([38:21])
  • The leverage at the negotiation table can yield significant community benefit—if handled shrewdly.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Host Ryan Graduski:
  “I don't think by not letting our health records be up for sale...we're letting China win.” ([03:51])
• Maria Curie:
  “The cheapest way for hyperscalers to cool their servers is through evaporation...many of them right now are still relying on the very type of cooling technology that is not the best for the places where there is drought.” ([25:28])
• Maria Curie, on jobs:
  “In terms of permanent long term jobs, we're talking a few hundred, in some cases less than a hundred.” ([36:32])
• Ryan Graduski:
  "The best…the most informative thing that you said…is the local governments actually have a lot of power at this point, more than they've had in a very long time." ([38:21])
• Maria Curie:
  "I would just be wary of, of making those types of declarations without knowing the science behind it. But there's also just what we experience as human beings. It's loud, you know, and if your water is coming out brown, that's not a good thing." ([33:50])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Host’s AI/Data Center Concerns & Public Perception: [02:41–18:31]
• Interview with Maria Curie (Axios) begins: [21:17]
• ​Electricity cost discussion: [21:23–25:07]
• Water usage and fire risk: [25:07–27:41]
• Tax subsidies & fiscal impact: [28:07–30:58]
• Legal immunity & potential lawsuits: [31:00–32:31]
• Health and environmental risks: [32:31–34:46]
• Wildlife impact: [35:05–35:53]
• Jobs & economic necessity: [36:00–38:21]
• Closing reflections & resources: [38:21–39:18]

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Episode Takeaways

• AI’s real-world infrastructure needs (data centers) have massive, immediate, and local consequences.
• The debate over data centers is nuanced: they can drive up demand and costs for utilities, have ambiguous statewide economic benefits (despite strong local fiscal positives), and create few permanent jobs.
• Environment and quality-of-life impacts are real but under-studied, creating a knowledge gap.
• Local governments, given high industry demand for resources, have significant negotiation leverage to shape outcomes for their communities.
• Further research is urgently needed on health and environmental impacts, water use, and fiscal trade-offs.

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For more from Maria Curie:
Find her work at Axios.com and her tech policy newsletter, AI+Government.

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[This summary omits advertisements, off-topic banter, and the full AMA listener Q&A that followed the main content.]

Transcript

[Maria Curie]

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[Ryan Graduski]

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[Ryan Graduski]

Game with Ryan Graduski. Thank you guys for being here. I hope you all enjoyed Monday's episode where I talked about Kevin o' Leary and his fight in Utah and my interview with Chad Bianco from California. He's running for governor. I'm going to spend the rest of this week doing deep, deep dives into AI and data centers and the backlash over AI and data centers. I've gotten a few of your emails and you're saying, Ryan, you're being too negative about AI. I want to express something off of the top as best as I possibly can because I sometimes I do triple my words. I don't know everything about AI and I'm trying my hardest to separate spin from both sides and corporate narratives and hyperbolic dooming that the world's going to end and trying to find out as much truth as possible about a very complicated subject matter that's changing rapidly. On its face, I am not anti AI. I think I can and should. I think it can and should be used to better people's lives. My frustration though, with the conversations around AI is from people like Kevin o' Leary that, you know, he says AI is important and we need to do everything that I want to do to build it up or the bad guys win. Like they don't make this an all or nothing scenario. We can't. We are not China. We do not. We do not purposefully inflict our population with subpar living standards to have this economic boom or this technological advancement while we all live like in really terrible conditions. I don't want to live in that country. So I think there's a lot of gray in the matter. There's a lot in the middle. There's a lot to go over and to do deep dives on. And I'm curious. I want to explore this issue. At times it makes me sound very negative. At times make me sounds optimistic. I'm probably a pessimist by nature. So I apologize it's coming off like that. I don't want to be, I don't want to make you think I'm just being a doomer. I'm not. But I have questions and I think the questions are valid. For instance, so many people are talking about how innovation with AI will be, you know, extremely great in medicine and how we'll be able to find diseases in our bodies before doctors usually could have done this. Or how we'll be able to get scans in minutes when it used to take days. That's all great. I'm all for that. That sounds wonderful. But I have questions. So for instance, this data that the AI companies, the AI models are using to upload my health records, who owns the data? Does the AI company get my health data? Do they get, do they own a copy of it? Can they sell it? Can they sell it to other companies to market stuff with? Am I going to go for a test on bone density and then see advertisements about bone density five seconds later on Instagram? Or does the government get a copy of my health information? Can they sell my health records to the government? I would, I would like to know. I don't know. I think it's an important question. I think it's a completely valid question. I want to know are there any regulations around what, what they use it on our health for? And if there's not, could there be, could there, could something come into place? I don't want my health records being sold to the highest bidder. I don't think I'm alone when I say that and I don't think that that's going by not letting our health records be up for sale. I don't think we're letting China win. Right. That's just like one thing. What about AI being used to hack programs like that concerns me a lot. I have a lot of questions. Anthropic refused to release their Claude Mythos after an autonomously discovered thousands of hidden zero day vulnerabilities in major operating systems and browsers. The company calculated that releasing it publicly would drast lower the cost of launching devastated automated cyber attacks. Okay, it's very good that this was not released. Right? It's I, I Anthropic did a great job in catching this early and saying this is too d dangerous for the general public. What if another company doesn't care? That's a question I have. If another company doesn't care, should the government say you cannot release something that could hack my bank account or hack the government's accounts or freeze the government's accounts? You know, I, one of my big fears when it comes to like this hacking is can they create an AI platform that hacks into the FAA and we and planes aren't able to communicate with people on the ground. I last like not last year but the year before. I flew 60 times in a year. I, by the way, I absolutely hate flying. It's One of the true banes of my existence. I'm a terrible flyer. I have to get like 3 inches from completely drunk to get on a plane. And I fly all the time. So it's, it's a very tough life where I have to do it. I do it dozens of times a year and I hate every single second that I'm too type A to allow someone else to be in control of every moment of my life. However, I'm okay with it because I know it's a very safe form of travel in part by the work the FAA has done and that these airlines have done to make air flights safer. Part of the, that's, that's the reason I'm able to fly. So we're all able to fly. It's not the 1970s anymore we're getting hacked. Or the 1930s where the planes were falling from the sky like or forties, whatever, like we are. It's, it's very, very, very safe. Could it not be safe if an AI company was able to hack into the faa? How likely is that? I would like to know. And can we make regulations that AI companies can't make a model or release a model that would make it easier to hack into a program like the faa? I want to know that. I want to have that conversation. I don't think having that conversation means China wins. That's not the all or nothing approach. I think that is coherent for a normal functioning first world country. Like Kevin o' Leary is saying it is. People said it was overblown. You know the risks of all this hacking. But it was clearly serious enough that the White House is doing a dramatic about face and the Trump administration is considering a potential plans for a formal government review process for new AI models. Was, according to the New York Times. Like I said, I don't know everything. But these are very important questions worth asking and I want smart and thoughtful people to be allowed to ask them and answer them. I don't want to shut down the debate entirely in either direction. But let me tell you something. For all of you who are super pro AI the entire time, if they do release a model like this, any of the major AI companies and we have, God forbid, truly God forbid, a 911 style attack from an a, from a company that, from, from a terrorist organization that used AI to hack whatever, we're going to have a 911 style overcorrection where we're going to be governing by knee jerk reaction. And I personally would rather have smart people discuss ideas ahead of time instead of dumb people just reacting, trying to make news, trying to tell the public they've got everything figured out, and then us spending decades trying to fix what we break. But that's this episode is not all about AI. This episode, that's Friday's episode. Friday's episode will be all about AI and my concerns and my fears. This episode is primarily about data centers. I want to go into that minor caveat of the whole entire AI debate, because data centers are becoming a larger discussion, especially on the local issues. And it is the most visible backlash towards everything to do with technology for multiple reasons. Part of it is that people don't like AI. That's why they don't like data centers. Part of it. Part of it is that Americans are worried about the environment and their energy bills, a big part of the energy bills and water consumption and privacy and taxes and wildlife. There's a lot going on when it comes to these concerns about data centers. And let me tell you the for the last few days in preparation for this podcast episode, I have been hunting and working on trying to find unbiased information, answering the questions that people have. Most common questions we will have around data centers. And it's unbelievable how little unbiased research that is either not sponsored by a loony left wing don't build data centers, or a data company is out there. Like all the research is backed by either side and so we're getting whatever information they want to produce, or it's done by someone with an ideological bend. So I did this or this one study, I think it was by the Goldwater Institute, and it was like, and here's how libertarian policies will solve all the questions. No, no, no. I want to know the information. I don't want to know your ideology. Like, I don't have time for that. I'm not married to a specific ideology where I have to get everything through this prison. That's not for me. So I found a very smart journalist who's going to give us the facts on data centers. But before we listen to her, I want to talk to you about some data that you need to know about data centers. So data centers have been around for a while. They're not exactly new. According to Nextgov.com there were 2100 federal data centers back in 2010. And according to Business Insiders, private companies filed permits for 311 major data centers back then. So they're at least 16, 17 years old as far as private companies having data centers. But over the last few years, especially as inflation has caused a spike in prices. Overall, the surge in electricity prices has also grown, and that has created this big backlash against data centers. One of the major changes we've seen really about data centers is where they exist versus where they're being built. According to Pew Research, 87% of existing data centers currently operate in urban areas. Only 13% operate in rural areas. Of the new data centers being built, 67% are going to be built in rural areas. 33% will be in urban areas. That makes perfect sense. Rural areas have a lot more land. It's a lot cheaper. Urban areas are very expensive. And when you are building these massive major gigawatt data centers, you need more land. The states with the most existing current and planned data centers are Virginia, Texas, and California. I did not know about California. Those three states have 1500 data centers that have already been built or under construction. Currently, 38% of Americans live within five miles of an operating data center. 38%, you probably live near a data center, and you do not know. These structures tend to be built in clusters. So 9 in 10 data centers are within 5 miles of another data center. As a result, a majority of Americans who live near one data center, they live near many data centers. Another 4% don't currently live near a data center, but they're living near a place where a new data center is being built. Altogether, 42% of the country already either lives near a data center and multiple data centers, or they live near one that's being built currently, or they're in the middle of talks and negotiations to build one. So a lot of us already live near this, which, you know, is especially understandable given that most Americans live in urban areas and there's a lot of data centers in urban areas. The backlash that has grown, and I don't think it's peaked, by the way. I think it's just really starting, and I think it's going to continue. That backlash is growing because all of a sudden we're seeing the type of data centers change from small ones to massive ones. And people are having questions about what these massive data centers are costing with electricity and all the rest of it. Here's how Americans feel in the polls on data centers. I think it's important to understand the polling. The, the, the reasons for why they feel this way are varied. As I said, it's quality of life, it's the environment, it's jobs, energy costs. But a recent gala poll found that 71% of Americans oppose the construction of local data centers, while 27% support it. According to the Gallup polls, people would rather live near a nuclear facility, a nuclear energy facility, than live near a data center, which is ironic given that 38% of us already live near a data center and I don't think that most of us know it. And IPSA's poll asks people why they are worried about data centers users the mass the number one reason among all people, Republican majority, Republicans, Democrats and Independents that they are worried that the energy usage plurality of everybody sorry, majority of everybody except for Republicans. There's a plurality for Republicans that they're worried about the environmental impact of more AI data centers. A majority also said they're they have opposed a data center being built in their community. There's a significant but not majority worry though that they will contribute to economic sorry, belief not it's not a majority worries majority belief. It's a plurality belief that AI data centers will contribute to the economic growth in their community and that they will advance achievement that will outweigh their concerns. But that's a small amount. Around 27% believe that the economic growth will outweigh any concerns and about 25% believe that the technological leaps we're going to make will outweigh the concerns. That's not a lot though. The the the people believe in the bad stuff. Large, large, large more of them are on one side versus those who believe that good stuff will follow. A Yuga poll asked do you think construction of a new data centers have positive or negative effects on the country? 47 said negative 22 said positive. Locally Emerson because there's an upcoming Senate race there. Emerson polled in Michigan and they said do you support the building of new data centers? 27 support 55% oppose, including a majority of Democrats and plurality of Republicans. A Stockton University poll of AI and data centers out of New Jersey said do you think AI data centers have a positive or beneficial rather or negative or harmful effect on your community? 49 said harmful. 8% said beneficial. Would you support the banning of AI data centers in your town? 56% said yes 22% said no. And another poll, last poll poll From Quinnipiac said Americans 65 to 24% oppose the building of an AI data center in their community with majority opposition across the board. Those who oppose the building of data centers in their community were given a list of three possible reasons and asked if there are any reasons of their opposition. 72% said electricity costs, 64% said water use and 41% said noise. Those polls and all those things I brought up are a lot of noise. What is the truth? Where? What should we really be concerned about? On electricity, on water, on jobs, on taxes, on everything. Let's get to the interview. Here's Maria Curie from Axios. We're going to break down all the concerns about data centers and she's going to dive in deep and tell us the truth. That's coming up next. Stay tuned.

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[Ryan Graduski]

this is

[Jacob Goldstein]

Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? Business software is expensive. And when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites to sales to inventory to accounting, all linked and talking to each other. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o dot com.

[Ryan Graduski]

With me on today's episode is Maria Curie. She's a tech reporter for Axios. Thank you for being here, Maria.

[Maria Curie]

Thanks for having me.

[Ryan Graduski]

Okay, Maria, let's start off with the most basic question, the one that everyone is talking about when it comes to a centers does data centers raise electricity costs? A lot of people look at Loudoun County, Virginia and say no. Other states look like New Jersey have said that it has had an impact on electricity costs. Libertarians say it's just because of government regulation. What is the truth? Does AI raise your electricity prices?

[Maria Curie]

So I think the, yeah, I think the, the truth is complex because it is such a hyper local issue and you're seeing different experiences at a place like Loudoun County, Virginia versus in New Jersey because the regulations there and the grid there in each place are so different. And so if you look at Loudoun county, for example, that is where the world's highest concentration of data centers exist. So this would be the perfect place for pro data center players to argue that actually data center construction is going to bring your electricity prices down. Because the theory, the argument goes that the more customers that you have on the grid, the cheaper it is to operate it in. And so that is a very unique argument that you can make to a place like Loudoun County, Virginia. The reason why that argument starts to not work as much and starts to not be as convincing in places like New Jersey, which is not as mature as Loudoun County, Virginia, is because this really hinges on new construction. And so new construction does not necessarily mean that your prices are going to go down. And so, you know, the key is new infrastructure. And the bottom line is this bills are going up even in places like Virginia, right? This year, bill prices are expected to go up as much as $16 in some places. And so, you know, this whole theory of whether or not Data centers are going to result in lower costs has just not been seen in reality yet and is very theoretical at this point.

[Ryan Graduski]

So and, and I think the big question is, is, look, prices are going up everywhere for a multitude of reasons. Between our, our energy crisis, because the Iran war, because of just inflation, as, as in general has raised prices for everything. So it would make sense that electricity would be part of that. If we are having, if there's too much currency in circulation because of what we had during COVID and we're kind of paying the price of that inflationary period now, it would make sense. Electricity, of course we go up. Like everything else is going up. However, I, I kind of, I'm in the, I'm at the, I've read all the data saying look, it doesn't cause electricity prices to go up, but electricity prices are going up. But it's not because of this, it's just because of the nature state of the dollar. And is it, is it, is it the fact that like if you have one data center, it could cause it to go up versus having like a hundred? Like there's a, there's like almost like a bottleneck. Like once it has so many, it may reduce prices.

[Maria Curie]

It may reduce prices. That is what a lot of pro data center, you know, people in industry is saying, like hey, if we do this enough in the right ways, with the right regulations, it could actually lead to a decrease in your bill. And you know, we just have to have the right regulations in place. At the end of the day, you know, why is your electricity bill going up? It probably is a myriad of reasons and you can't discount the fact that the AI boom is creating a massive need for electricity and that is having an impact on the grid and it's going to continue having an impact on the grid. So you can talk about the war in Iran and you can talk about all these different factors, but you cannot discount also that data centers are having an impact.

[Ryan Graduski]

Okay, let's talk about water, right? Because that's, that seems to be the easiest thing for me to understand when it comes to data centers. They do use some, a lot of them use a lot of words. Some have air conditioning as a form of like cooling methods. But the water is an obvious one. But it seems like it's a one time use, like they don't use water constantly. Is that true?

[Maria Curie]

No. So I think there's a distinction here between a one time use and then evaporation. Right. So the cheapest way for hyperscalers to cool their servers right now. And we're talking about hyperscalers. So there's a lot of different types of data centers. We're talking about the biggest AI ones that are the ones that are most relevant to this debate. The cheapest way for hyperscalers to cool their servers is through evaporation. So this is the type of cooling that requires the most water. And these hyperscalers need this cooling in the places that are the hottest and experiencing the most drought. And so industry is to their credit, looking to balance this approach because it is the cheapest one right now with other types of cooling, with air cooling, for example. But for the most part, many of them right now are still relying on the very type of cooling technology that is not the best for the places where there is drought. And you know, you said something at the beginning of your question which I think is really key here, which is this is the least confusing thing and it is still very confusing. I think this is a reason why a lot of people are wanting to slow down on construction. You know, when we hear about AI data center moratoriums, I think a lot of people immediately think we want to completely halt construction. We being the progressive politicians that are pitching this as a, as an idea. And that is certainly the case when you think about a Senator Bernie Sanders or an aoc. But if you look at the local level, which we started out by talking about how this is such a hyperlocal issue at a proposal from, for example, Congresswoman Ruel Roman in Georgia who was running for governor until recently, it's really to just take a moment to study how these data centers are going to impact the real economy versus just projections when it comes to electricity, when it comes to water. And it's a temporary pause to study it and then act accordingly with the regulations.

[Ryan Graduski]

I know that, listen, data centers are not new, but the scale is much larger over the last 15 years.

[Maria Curie]

Yeah.

[Ryan Graduski]

Has there been a case ever where a data center is using up so much local water that it's caused like forest fires and stuff? Has that ever happened?

[Maria Curie]

No, that's not. I don't think that's happened to my knowledge. But I think the concern with forest fires is an indirect one. It's not that the data center itself is literally going to catch on fire. Fire and create a forest fire. It is that data centers require a lot more construction of transmission lines near, in some cases, wildfire prone areas. And that could be a major risk.

[Ryan Graduski]

Okay, are now let's. Let me ask about tax subsidies. Right. How are data centers taking Tax subsidies and which states are giving out the most tax subsidies? Which then are.

[Maria Curie]

Yeah, so data centers are absolutely taking tax subsidies in most states. So 38 states at least right now, are offering hyperscalers tax subsidies. And you know, Virginia, Texas, Ohio, these are the states that are offering the most attractive tax subsidies and incentives to these companies. So Virginia has the longest standing tax subsidy. Texas is, you know, spending about a billion dollars in tax subsidies per year. And importantly though, these issues are so new and they're moving so fast that you have a lot of local regulators and leaders, including in places like Virginia, rethinking these tax incentives and you know, debating whether or not some of them should be fully repealed or reined back. Because at the end of the day, you know, these companies are worth trillions of dollars. And you have community leaders rethinking, is the economic impact of these companies going to be worth all of the money that we, you know, giving them?

[Ryan Graduski]

You know, I have a friend in Georgia who's coming on the podcast at the end of the week and she was saying to me that Georgia has handed out more tax subsidies than it has generated in tax revenue. I don't know necessarily true, but there was some. Everything with data AI data centers is like caveat to who's producing these studies. So do data centers produce? I know in Loudoun county they say they produce half of all the real estate. Local property tax is do. Is there any place where the tax entities are so large the data centers are fiscal, net fiscal losses, losses.

[Maria Curie]

So I'm not entirely sure. I think the losses question is murkier.

[Ryan Graduski]

Okay.

[Maria Curie]

Actually if you look at the local level impact of these taxes, of net tax benefits at the local level, these companies are generating more than they are taking, including in Loudoun County. The problem and the debate comes into play when we think about state level taxes incentives and is that then worth everything that is being handed out? Are the jobs across the state of Georgia or Ohio worth what the company is being given? When you look at it at a hyper local level like Loudoun county, it becomes clear like, yeah, of course they're generating more than they're being given. But at the state level it becomes more complicated located. And that's where the debate comes in.

[Ryan Graduski]

Okay, so it is so data centers. And I'm going to just clarify. So data centers, it is good for the local community as far as tax revenues goes questionable statewide. If that actually benefits worth. That's perfect. Makes perfect sense.

[Maria Curie]

Yeah.

[Ryan Graduski]

What about. Okay, this is, this is the one thing that really sticks in my, my side more than any other issue with data centers is the qualified immunity. Do data centers get qualified immunity?

[Maria Curie]

No.

[Ryan Graduski]

Okay. All right. So there have been, people have said that, said the data center in Utah will get qualified immunity or be qualified. Will be allowed to have qualified immunity. That's not true at all.

[Maria Curie]

Not to my knowledge, I think. But I think the bigger, more important issue here is it's a pain in the ass and very expensive to sue as an individual. So bottom line, are people going to have to rely on lawsuits for any potential damages from this, from these data centers? And to my understanding, there isn't anything that could prevent a community from suing.

[Ryan Graduski]

Well, there was that one community in Michigan that voted against the data center. The data center sued and the local community could not afford the lawsuit against the data center. So they built it even after the people voted against it, so that I could see. I mean, these companies have endless supplies of money, so lawsuits mean nothing to them. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, and has there ever been a lawsuit where someone says, or community says, the data center polluted my water supply or gave. Gave too much, whatever, like it did something negative to my livelihood, as or not my livelihood, my health. Has that ever happened?

[Maria Curie]

Not to my knowledge. Not that I know of yet. But if it hasn't happened already, Ryan, I think it will, because we have been hearing from a lot of these communities that they are experiencing, whether it's their direct health or just their quality of life, that there is noise pollution and, you know, potential pollution to their water. I mean, some of them have literally shown images of their water being brown. So I think that is something that companies are potentially going to have to contend with in the near future, if they haven't already.

[Ryan Graduski]

Yeah, I just, I have, I have a. I mean, I have general assumptions on health like everyone else does. That's like part science and part just regular beliefs. I don't think it's personally great to live. Like, I, I know people who, like, literally live next to the landing strip of a major airport and people, they are constantly getting cancer in the neighborhood. I'm like, probably because there's emissions flowing on top of you every 90 seconds of every day for the last 30 years, probably. My guess, I don't have science to back it up, but I believe this. Is there any known health risks of living close to this major thing that's producing all this light, all this energy? Constantly. A level of radiation? Probably not. Maybe not unhealthy, I don't know. But is there any evidence that living Next to a data center is not

[Maria Curie]

healthy for you on the radiation front? I have not seen scientists really come out on a consensus with this or there being any indication that the data center alone causes these levels of radiation. And I would just be wary of, of making those types of declarations without knowing the science behind it. But there's also just what we experience as human beings. It's loud, you know, and if your water is coming out brown, that's not a good thing. You can't consume that for your health. And so I think, you know, there's still a lot to be studied. And for now, I think we have communities speaking out. And those things I think should not be glossed over.

[Ryan Graduski]

How far are we behind on the studies? Like, are there a lot of studies in the works right now, or are we not even at the study at the beginning of this level, like, like doing these major studies, like universities should be doing studies in other places, in

[Maria Curie]

particular for the health impacts of data centers?

[Ryan Graduski]

Yeah.

[Maria Curie]

You know, my understanding is that this, all of data centers are not new, but these particular types of data centers, this scale and this magnitude are. And we are moving so fast as a society and as a country toward the construction of these data centers that I would be surprised if, if, if there were studies that were well underway or already out there about them.

[Ryan Graduski]

Okay, what about the local wildlife? Because that's another major issue. Like in places like Utah and in these rural communities, they're worried about the animals is do data centers damage? I mean, obviously constructing something massive destroys their habitat. But is there anything else that we know about what the effects of local wildlife?

[Maria Curie]

A lot of conservationists right now are pointing to what you just mentioned. The obvious thing of if you are using all this land for data centers, you're going to have an impact on the habitats of this wildlife. Beyond that, this is actually one area where a lot of studies have not been generated and people are still looking into it. But that certainly is not going to slow down, you know, these conservationists from pointing out what they might feel is obvious that there's probably going to be an impact on wildlife.

[Ryan Graduski]

Yeah, well, I mean, I can't imagine that owls are like, people are loving the animals are loving all the light and the noise. Constantly admitted to it.

[Maria Curie]

Yeah.

[Ryan Graduski]

All right, last question, which is the jobs, because that is what people hear constantly. I know that the construction jobs are obviously very lucrative where these data centers are being built, but they are temporary. How many permanent jobs are being created outside of construction from a data center? I know there Was a study done, was it by Vox or. That had a look of how many permanent jobs are created by data centers. And it was basically like the first major one creates a bunch of jobs and then everyone after that creates fewer and fewer. Is that true?

[Maria Curie]

I think the conventional wisdom, based on industry projections, is that the construction phase is going to generate a few thousand jobs, maybe up to 5,000 jobs. And in terms of permanent long term jobs, we're talking about a few hundred, in some cases less than a hundred. And so what I think is really interesting is that now there's been more of a focus toward in these negotiations with data centers who are so eager for land and for electricity and for resources. I mean, local governments and states have a lot of leverage here. And so more and more communities, including in Pennsylvania, for example, are negotiating better workforce development incentives and investments from the companies themselves if they want to build on that public land. And so this is, and so this is really an opportunity to negotiate an enforceable and strong agreement with data centers to make sure that all of those tax incentives that we discussed earlier are actually resulting in long term jobs and good economic impact for the local communities. It's going to take local leaders to do so.

[Ryan Graduski]

But do data centers invest in the infrastructure of their own infrastructure?

[Maria Curie]

Yes.

[Ryan Graduski]

Oh, they do. Okay.

[Maria Curie]

Yes. And so we've been hearing a lot from politicians all the way from New York Governor Kathy Hochul to the Trump administration, this idea of pay your fair share data centers. And all these companies went to the White House, all these hyperscalers, and said, we're going to pay for our fair share. The issue, critics say, is that how do you make sure that these voluntary commitments are actually enforceable and how do you create that without having the data in place and understanding what the real economic impact of these data centers are going to be?

[Ryan Graduski]

That's so fascinating. So I think that the best, I think the most informative thing that you said and the best thing that you said for a local listener who cares about this issue, is the local governments actually have a lot of power at this point, more than they've had in a very long time. And that would, that would be good for, I guess, being able to negotiate something. If you live in a town like in Pennsylvania that has had hard economic times for 50 years and they're promising all this money if it's invested correctly and wisely, you know, there's a real opportunity. The big question is, is the net negative of quality of life, I guess, too harmful? It's a very complicated issue. And I'm trying to parse through the noise from the actual facts and give people the most reliable information. So thank you for doing this. Where can we go to read your stuff because you're a great reporter.

[Maria Curie]

Oh thank you. Axios.com I write the tech policy newsletter AI+Government on Fridays.

[Ryan Graduski]

Okay, great. Thank you so much for coming this podcast. Thank you Ryan Warning this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

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[Ryan Graduski]

Views is a vapor product website restricted to age 21 plus tobacco consumers. Copyright 2026 RJRBC.

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[Ryan Graduski]

this is

[Jacob Goldstein]

Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out [e-mail] that's o d o

[Ryan Graduski]

o.com now it's time for the Ask Me Anything segment. If you want to be part of the Ask Me Anything segment, email me ryan numbers game podcast.com that's Ryan numbers game podcast numbers plural game podcast.com first question comes from Treble he says I this is a long email travel, so I'm going to narrow it because you sent me many, many paragraphs. Okay, you said I first began to notice that after the Charlie Kirk assassination. When Kirk was murdered, I really thought there would be a Christian revival and a rally around the flag moment for the right. Instead, we have gotten an endless barrage of conspiracy theories. There are too many to list of them, but their general narratives Basically Israel, the US Government, Turning Point USA and Charlie's own widow Erica, among others, all colluded in some grand conspiracy to assassinate and Charlie and cover it up. I don't want to get into a Twitter feud you to get into a few, so I won't name names, but you know who I'm talking about. When the war against Iran began, the division went into overdrive. Prominent people on the right were pro Trump as recently as last year and now are gone nuclear on him beyond the point of no return. They say that Trump is controlled by Netanyahu and some say he is part of the quote unquote Epstein class. Some are telling their audience not to vote, not to vote over Democrats. Some are proposing that they that the populist right unified with the populist left to defeat this quote unquote Epstein class and that we fight the left on the dumb woke stuff later. Some are even proposing a new party. I'm absolutely losing my mind on this. I thought there were many people. I thought these people were on our side. I used to be a huge fan. Some of them. I don't know what is motivating these people to do what they are doing, but I completely resent them for doing it. We have a chance to really change our country for the better right now, but these people seem perfectly willing to throw it all away and risk handing the country back, back to the left on one thing these people all have in comments. They are obscenely wealthy. Regardless of what happens to the rest of us, they will be able to continue living in their little enclaves in the 1950s in America, no matter what. My question is this. What are your general thoughts on this issue? Have you been noticing the same thing I'm noticing? And finally, do you think that this will have a real world consequence or do you think it's purely an online thing? Would love to hear your thoughts. Okay. And you're talking about. About the woke, quote, unquote, woke. Right. Which is a term I genuinely hate because I've been called, quote, woke up rope. Right. And I avoid these issues entirely. So I don't know what anyone's talking about. Here is my thoughts, the world. Tucker Carlson, who personally did me a lot of favors in my life by having me on his show. And for that reason, I'm very appreciative of him. And I know his son and he's a perfectly nice person. So I'm not. Buckley is a great, great, great kid. I don't know Tucker personally. I only ever knew him from being on the show, and he was very nice to have me on the show, and it changed my life beyond the show, when he was the number one cable show of all time. What? Tucker Carlson said something very interesting recently, and I don't listen to his podcast. I saw a clip of it online and he said, building up America for president is very difficult. Bombing a nation is very easy. And that is true. And for that same reason, creating policy solutions and talking about big ideas and pissing off people on your side is very difficult. And talking about other people and conspiracies is very easy. I'm using that same analogy he used in a different way. I really try in this podcast to elevate conversations. I talk about things I don't know the answers to. Like, I just have this. I had. I had Maria Curie on, and I asked her about questions. I really didn't know the answer. I know where we're going to go. And I just wanted to know because I want to be as informed as possible. And when I do these deep dives on research and numbers, I'm trying to make everyone as informed, as informed as possible. And I think that you. I think that getting lost in who said what? Is Ben Shapiro's company going downhill? Is Megyn Kelly changing her opinions? Is she a coward? Or is Tucker Carlson working for the Guitaris? Or is this one or that one is Candace Owens. Lost your mind? I don't have, not to sound arrogant, these people don't take up almost any space in my life and I've met every single one of them and I, I know a few of them personally and I don't have a personal problem with any of that. But that's not a constructive conversation to be having, right? People who make up conspiracy, some conspiracies end up being true, like MK Ultra. Right? But most of the time people make up conspiracies when they feel they are too small to do anything positive themselves. And I have noticed that that is the worst state for you as a person to be in. You as an individual are capable of taking care of your family. You as an individual are capable of trying to earn more money. You as an individual are capable of, of saving, of living healthier, of doing all the things I always tell my employees. Do what you can with what you have. Do the most what you can with what you have. Right. We can't expect me, for example, to become like an NBA star. That's never going to happen. But I can do a good podcast episode. I'm going to do the most or what I can with what I have. And so I am going to use my platform to try to elevate the situation, elevate the conversation and bring people up and make them informed and then we could have great policy negotiations. I think that a lot of these people are jumping on the bandwagon of attacking Israel and having conspiracies against the Jews because it's very easy. And a lot of people are down on Israel, A lot of Republicans are down on Israel. They don't like a lot of what Israel has done and they don't like our foreign policy intervention. And I've said on this podcast time and time again, America is a war weary country. We don't want foreign intervention. And a lot of it is not. There's obviously Israel has its own interests and they definitely push Americans to be involved in their interests like a lot of other countries do. They're not special in that reason. But it's not, it's so often not Israel as much. It's, you know, why we're involved in Middle east politics. It's part of that. It's partly, it's people in energy companies, it's partially people in other Middle Eastern countries like Saudi Arabia. It's partially evangelical Christians who, who have a belief and a connection to Israel that is different than, than Catholics do. And, and part of it is Jewish Americans. And there's a lot of things, but the simple belief that Donald Trump, who is 80 years old, is a billionaire by himself, is being controlled by Bibi Netanyahu. I don't believe it. I don't believe it. I'm sorry, I don't believe it. And when, and the thing about America is you're allowed to have your own opinions. So when these people talk about this and they say this, I choose not to join in the noise. I choose not to call them the quote, unquote, right. I choose not to get in the mud and scream and fight about it. I choose our data centers and AI because that's what's going to affect every person in this country. That's what's going to bring everyone's life to a change. That's what's going to be a positive impact on. I choose to talk about immigration. I choose to talk about housing costs and health care costs. I want to do an entire episode on colleges. Coming up soon. I have an independent candidate who's running for Congress going to come on this podcast. I want to talk about that because that is what I know we can control what we can do locally and how we can have be informed as people and lift the entire narrative up. And that's, that's how I feel. I mean, I know it's a long, ranting answer, but that's really how I feel. So they don't take up a lot of energy and space in my mind. And if they take a lot of space in your mind and they're bringing you negative opinions and negative thoughts, you should probably excise them because that's no way to live. It's, it's, it's podcasts. It's not that serious. Right? Just, I, I understand your frustration. I understand your anger treble. I, I, I do. But it's, you can't let it fill that void in your life because it will make you go crazy. It does. And that's why it doesn't make me crazy, because I don't listen to them. And yeah, and that's it. And have a relax and have a meal. Have an Italian meal. Thank you for your question. Thank you for listening. Podcast. Next question comes from Sarah says, Can. Do you know anything about New Jersey? Do I know anybody in New Jersey? Yeah. How may it lean in the future politically? Can Democratic Senator Cory Booker be defeated? Can New Jersey go red again without mass deportations? This comes from Sarah. Sarah, it is going, it was going very well in New Jersey until the last election. So Republicans had successfully grown their minority numbers in registration every single month for like five consecutive years. Then the governor's election really took the wind out of the sails for the Republican Party. And Democrats have made advantages in voter registration. The issue with New Jersey is obviously the, you know, the strip from New York City to Philadelphia is the Democratic stronghold that keeps that entire state blue. I think that you have to understand certain demographics are changing very, very quickly in New Jersey. Orthodox Jews are growing rapidly in that state, in Ocean county, and they are going to be an increasing voting block that will be more Republican. I think that there's a lot of Latinos and Asians in northern New Jersey that were at least curious or at of the Democratic Party enough to vote for Trump for the first time. And I think that the, the state of the. The state of the state is changing now. Nothing goes in a pure, like, hockey stick mode where it's just going to be one way forever. Sometimes it happens, but very, very rarely, more often it ebbs and flows. So it was, it was definitely going Republicans direction for the last few years, and it started to flow back towards Democrats. But the trajectory is very clear that New Jersey is moving consistently towards being more of a swing state. Will it get there enough for Cory Booker's election? Probably not. Will it get there ever? Probably, because I've seen the numbers with the voter registration and the Republicans are in a much better position. They were back in 2020, even after the last few months of increased Democratic voter registration. So that's my best bet. And Republicans really need to invest in New Jersey's local elections, especially the state legislature, because if they can break the Democratic supermajority there, they can really get. Get an upper hand on starting to change the state. So I, I firmly believe that. Okay, last question comes from Joel. He says, well, after your rant against Vivek, he only won 82% of the Republican primary vote. That's very funny. I voted for Poosh, but I have no choice but to vote for Vivek in the general election. His opponent is going to try the I'm a moderate approach that worked for the governor of Virginia. We should all remember how crazy a lockdown person she was during COVID What's your take? Just so you know, I'll send money to Houston for Senate, but I'm not gonna be able to dime by Vivek. I can't believe Brown is running for Senate again because he's too liberal for Ohio. Joel, great question. Okay, so I always knew Vivek was going to Win because Poosh, the guy running against him, was running an Internet campaign. He wasn't running a serious campaign. What I found that was interesting was Poosh did rather well in rural counties around Appalachia and in northeast Ohio, there were a couple counties he got up over 25 to over 30% in. And wherever that overperformed was really in Democratic strongholds in urban centers and suburban areas around Cincinnati, Cleveland and Columbus. What do I think? I think that. I think. I mean, Ohio is a red state. I think Vivek is deeply unpopular. I think he's got a lot of issues with people who might choose the couch over showing up in November. The Republicans are going to spend a fortune for Houston, so maybe he will be the beneficiary of that money spend. I will say this, though, isn't vote whoever you want to vote for. It's not. It's your. It's your choice. Do your research on your local governor's race and if you want to support Vic, you absolutely can. I've made the case of why I don't like him. I don't think I would vote for him if I was in Ohio. However, I would say that Ohio is not like Virginia because the Republican state legislature is in control of the state. So I think that regardless of who wins the governorship, because I think Vivek is not. Is not a natural fit for parts of that state as far as representation as a governor goes. But I think that if your main goal, if you want to be active locally, John uses a great place to spend your energy and your money. But keeping the legislator, legislature Republican is key because if the election goes to the woman, I can't remember her name now, but if she ends. Amy Acton. If Amy Acton is winning and she has a Republican legislature, she can't be like Spamberger, which is a good thing. All right, that's this episode. Thank you guys for listening so much. If you like this podcast, please like and subscribe on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. And Please subscribe on YouTube. I appreciate you all have a wonderful Wednesday. Talk to you guys on Friday.

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[Jacob Goldstein]

Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o.com fatigued

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