It's a Numbers Game: Unpacking 'Original Sin' with Alex Thompson

Summary

Podcast Summary: "It's a Numbers Game: Unpacking 'Original Sin' with Alex Thompson"

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show hosted by iHeartPodcasts delves into the intricate details of political maneuvers and media influence in its episode titled "It's a Numbers Game: Unpacking 'Original Sin' with Alex Thompson." Released on May 26, 2025, this episode offers an in-depth discussion with Alex Thompson, co-author of the controversial book Original Sin: President Biden's Decline, Its Cover-Up, and His Disastrous Choice to Run Again. The conversation navigates through the complexities of President Joe Biden’s administration, internal Democratic Party dynamics, media biases, and the personal struggles within Biden’s family.

Introduction to the Book and Author

The episode kicks off with Ryan Gradosky expressing his engrossment with Original Sin, highlighting its impact on his personal schedule:

"[07:00] Ryan Gradosky: ...I spent up two nights in a row, three o' clock in the morning each night reading Original Sin... it was a page turner."

Gradosky emphasizes the book’s gripping narrative and recommends it to listeners, particularly conservatives frustrated by mainstream media’s portrayal of Biden.

Audience and Intent of 'Original Sin'

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the intended audience of the book. Gradosky raises the question:

"[12:23] Ryan Gradosky: ... a lot of conservatives obviously feel deep frustration because they feel they'd been saying that, hey, he was in decline for a long time and felt that that was not being covered aggressively by much of the mainstream media."

Alex Thompson responds by clarifying the book’s bipartisan appeal:

"[12:25] Alex Thompson: ...we thought that actually it would be both the right and the left. We pitched that liberals are going to be sort of disoriented and want to know how, what happened, and our hope was that conservatives... would be interested in the behind-the-scenes story."

Biden's Personal and Political Decline

Thompson delves into President Biden’s perceived decline, drawing parallels with historical figures like JFK’s Camelot. He introduces the concept of "Biden Theology," emphasizing Biden’s resilience:

"[14:39] Alex Thompson: ...the first commandment of that theology is that Biden always gets back up. Biden is always counted out and he always comes back and proves his critics wrong."

Gradosky highlights Biden’s age and comments made during debates, questioning the administration's portrayal of the President’s capabilities.

Influence of Key Figures: Steven Spielberg and Ron Klain

A notable revelation from the book involves the involvement of high-profile individuals like Steven Spielberg in shaping Biden’s public image:

"[14:39] Alex Thompson: ...they had to bring in Steven Spielberg as a coach."

Thompson discusses Ron Klain’s role in pushing the administration’s policies to the left, contrasting Biden’s self-identification as a moderate with the actual policy trajectory:

"[17:00] Alex Thompson: ...Ron Klain's main purpose was to do as much as what the Progressive caucus in Congress wanted as possible. It was always to lean to the far left."

Jill Biden’s Evolving Role

The transformation of Jill Biden from a background figure to a powerful First Lady is another focal point. Gradosky notes:

"[16:28] Ryan Gradosky: ...the evolution of Jill Biden in your book is fascinating because you say in the beginning of the book that Jill did not like being a politician's wife or she wasn't a natural."

Thompson explains the factors contributing to Jill Biden’s increased influence, including her deep loyalty to Joe Biden and her embrace of the elevated lifestyle:

"[17:00] Alex Thompson: ...something seemed to change over the course of the vice presidency and then certainly in the intervening years post the vice presidency."

Internal Democratic Conflicts and Media Bias

A particularly dramatic account involves Colorado Senator John Fetterman’s confrontation with fellow Democrats post-debate:

"[18:43] Ryan Gradosky: ...John Fetterman gets up and starts screaming at his fellow Democratic senators and saying, how dare you? How dare you betray a great president."

The discussion shifts to media representation, with Gradosky expressing frustration over perceived media biases and their impact on Democrats:

"[30:00] Ryan Gradosky: ...a lot of people are kind of like hit, have egg on their face. I think this time is different than those times like the Iraq war, ..."

Thompson counters by asserting that mainstream media has not engaged in a significant self-reflection regarding its coverage:

"[32:15] Alex Thompson: ...I think there's still a defensiveness."

Hunter Biden’s Struggles and Family Dynamics

The conversation touches on Hunter Biden’s personal and professional challenges, including his struggle with addiction and business endeavors:

"[24:44] Ryan Gradosky: ...Hunter got a talent agent."

Thompson elaborates on how Hunter’s sobriety and lack of business opportunities are intertwined with the political landscape:

"[25:05] Alex Thompson: ...when Joe ran, decided to run in April 2019, Hunter was still in, like, the depths of his crack addiction, and they didn't even know where he was most the time."

Media’s Accountability and Alternative Sources

Gradosky raises concerns about media accountability, questioning why media outlets haven’t faced significant repercussions for biased reporting:

"[32:57] Ryan Gradosky: ...they were like, we were talking about age plenty ... but they were like, we didn't excavate enough."

Thompson maintains that mainstream media remains largely unaccountable, despite increased scrutiny from alternative media sources:

"[34:09] Alex Thompson: ...they were trying to destroy him [Robert Hur]."

Notable Quotes

Throughout the episode, several quotes stand out, reflecting the intensity of the discussions:

• Ryan Gradosky [07:00]: “...it was really a page turner. It was quick and there were things that I learned there.”
• Alex Thompson [14:39]: “Biden is always counted out and he always comes back and proves his critics wrong.”
• Alex Thompson [17:00]: “...there was no greater virtue and no greater sin than being even perceived as disloyal.”
• Ryan Gradosky [18:43]: “John Fetterman gets up and starts screaming at his fellow Democratic senators and saying, how dare you?”

Conclusion and Recommendations

As the episode wraps up, Gradosky lauds Original Sin as a pivotal work for understanding the human and political intricacies surrounding President Biden. He recommends the book to listeners seeking a deeper grasp of the current political climate:

"[37:30] Ryan Gradosky: ...Original Sin is a great, it's a great read. One to understand the humanity of certain people that seem so distant because they are the President, the President's family, and also to see really what it is like in political circles."

Final Thoughts

The episode offers a comprehensive exploration of Original Sin, presenting a critical view of President Biden’s administration and the internal dynamics of the Democratic Party. Through Alex Thompson’s insights, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the interplay between personal struggles and political strategies, all while highlighting the persistent biases within mainstream media.

For those interested in political analysis and behind-the-scenes revelations, this episode serves as an essential listen, providing depth and perspective on one of the most debated political figures of our time.

Transcript

[Ryan Gradosky]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.

[Ryan Seacrest]

While others are sitting in lecture halls. You're already building your future at Ferris State University. Hands on training starts from day one. With real world skills that lead straight to careers in construction, engineering, automotive tech and more. You're not just learning, you're earning, building a life you can be proud of and with in state tuition for out of state students. Success is within reach. Ferris State University. Unleash your potential. Register now at Ferris. Edu. That's Ferris. Edu it is Ryan Seacrest here. There was a recent social media trend which consisted of flying on a plane with no music, no movies, no entertainment. But a better trend would be going to chumbacasino.com it's like having a mini social casino in your pocket. Chumba Casino has over a hundred online casino style games, all absolutely free. It's the most fun you can have online and on a plane. So grab your free welcome bonus [e-mail] sponsored by Chumba Casino.

[Ryan Gradosky]

No purchase necessary. VGW Group Void we're prohibited by law 21 + terms and conditions apply for.

[Alex Thompson]

Some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent where money means more Connect with.

[Cindy Crawford]

[e-mail] at Ameca Insurance, we know it's more than just a car or a house. It's the four wheels that get you where you're going and the four walls that welcome you home. When you combine auto and home insurance with Amica, we'll help protect it all. And the more you cover, the more you can save. Amica Empathy is our best policy.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Since its invention, the TV has been just that, a tv.

[Ryan Gradosky]

But what if it could be something more?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Meet Samsung Vision AI Whether it's upscaling classic content to look brand new or translating in English broadcast subtitles to Spanish in real time, Samsung Vision AI helps you get more from TV than you ever thought possible. Redefine what it means to watch TV with Samsung Vision AI. Visit Samsung.com to learn more. Vision AI features vary by model. Upscaling utilizes AI based formulas and results may vary based on source content. Translation accuracy not guaranteed.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Welcome back to a numbers game podcast with Ryan Gradosky. Happy Memorial Day. I hope you are all having a wonderful Memorial Day, whatever you're doing, having a barbecue or going to the racetrack like my family always did, being degenerates. I'm just joking. We didn't, we weren't that degenerate. Anyway, I hope you guys have a great Memorial Day. Thank you for listening. On this holiday. I, I am exhausted because I spent up, I was up two nights in a row, three o' clock in the morning each night reading Original Sin, President Biden's Decline Its Cover up and His Disastrous Choice to Run again by Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson. It's a good book, really good. I mean it kept me up because it wasn't bad. It was actually a page turner. It was quick and there were things that I learned there. And I want to talk about the book in this episode special Memorial Day episode. Maybe you're looking for summer reading. I actually do recommend this book to people. I do. I know there's a lot of anger by conservatives around especially Jake tapper and the CNN's coverage over Joe Biden. I understand. And no, very few people have been as wronged by CNN as I have and I can still get past it. So you can get past it. Read this book. Certain things that I think were super interesting in this book that I, I just, I'm kind of blown away from one. One of the people involved in Joe Biden's like to make Joe Biden look better and was with Joe Biden frequently to do all of his videos was Steven Spielberg. I never knew that. I did not hear. Maybe I, maybe it was reported, I don't know. But Steven Spielberg ET Director Jaws, you know, Steven Frickin Spielberg was involved in trying to make Joe Biden look better because he couldn't record videos. I found that absolutely fascinating. I also found it fascinating which Democratic politicians would go on record to talk about it. Governor Massachusetts would go sat there and went on record. Senator from Colorado sat there, went on record and said I knew Joe Biden wasn't well. I think in my personal opinion they're underplaying how concerned they actually were. Also super interesting and fascinating part of the book the Colorado senator, I forget which one it was now because I didn't make a big note about it. But the Colorado senator sat there and said who keeps pushing Joe Biden to the left? And it seemed like he was well aware that where Biden, what Biden was doing as president wasn't always in the Joe Biden lexicon of what he did policy wise. And he A lot of the blame is put on Ron KLAIN Ron Klain's main purpose was to do as much as what the Progressive caucus in Congress wanted as possible. It was always to lean to the far left, which I think was fascinating because conservatives would always say, I understand Biden said he was a moderate for so many years there. Obviously there was this leaning evolution of Biden to the left, but it was hard left on things like immigration, to the left of Obama on immigration. Who was responsible for that? Just Mayorkas. Is there something in the White House? It turns out it was Ron Klain. Super fascinating. Also super interesting part of the book was. I know I'm saying the word super too much, so I'm going to stop that. But really interesting part of the book was when Biden said in the debate we defeated Medicare. The famous line, right. Dana Bash looked over at Jake Tapper, passed him a note and said, he just lost this election. Which is great because I've never actually heard what the people in the debate moderators are saying to each other while it's going on and they are communicating. So that was really fascinating. The other thing that I want to, I thought was highlighted was when they brought all the Democratic senators together. This is post debate when. When Biden is down 7 points nationally and he's going to lose not only in the swing states, but also in Maine and Minnesota and New Mexico. And the governors of these states are saying, you're going to lose New Mexico, you're going to lose Maine, all the rest of it. John Fetterman gets up and starts screaming at his fellow Democratic senators and saying, how dare you? How dare you betray a great president. How dare you do this to him? And it was. And John Federman was one of the only five Democrats in the room, along with Tammy Duckworth and like one or two other ones who sat there. And Jonathan was the most vocal supporter post debate, which was fascinating because Fetterman, I guess because he suffered a seizure but was willing to overlook everything after we knew everything Fetterman was completely complicit in. I don't care that he cannot operate as a person. We need to support him. Loved that. Love that. Our only governor, by the way, to sit there, Democrat governor, post debate, say, you need to drop out right now. Ned Lamont from Connecticut, super moderate governor. Stop saying super moderate governor of Connecticut. Thought that was really, really interesting. And the relationship between Kamala and Joe is so deep because Joe never wanted Kamala Harris. And Kamala Harris, her loyalty to Biden, it had a ceiling. She was loyal to a point, but she wouldn't put herself out there if it meant hurting her. So much so that at the debate at a debate watch party, one of the Democratic donors looked at Doug Enhoff, Kamala's husband, and started screaming at him, you destroy democracy. You destroyed democracy tonight. I was stunned. The book has a lot. The authors are getting scrutinized a lot, as they should in some cases. There's a lot of questions the authors should answer. Luckily for us, one of the two authors, Alex Thompson, a very, very good reporter who reported on Biden's health and well being long before the mainstream media did, is with me today. So coming up next is author of the book Original Sin, Alex Thompson. I am one of only two conservatives that have gotten to interview one of the authors besides Megyn Kelly. So stay tuned. You're not going to want to miss what I ask him.

[Ryan Seacrest]

While others are sitting in lecture halls, you're already building your future at Ferris State University. Hands on training starts from day one. With real world skills that lead straight to careers in construction, engineering, automotive tech and more, you're not just learning, you're earning, building a life you can be proud of. And with in state tuition for out of state students, success is within reach. Ferris State University unleash your potential. Register now at Ferris. Edu. That's Ferris Edu.

[Alex Thompson]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the best, bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more Thrivent, where money means more.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Connect with [e-mail] hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty, which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results. And then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty Confidence is beautiful. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.

[Cindy Crawford]

Every day our world gets a little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind us to be more human.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Thank you for calling Amica Insurance. Hey, I was just in an accident.

[Alex Thompson]

Don't worry, we'll get you taken care of.

[Cindy Crawford]

At Ameca, we understand that Looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking, it's human Amica Empathy is our best policy.

[Ryan Gradosky]

This message comes from Greenlight.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy?

[Ryan Gradosky]

Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money.

[Ryan Seacrest]

App that teaches kids and teens how.

[Ryan Gradosky]

To earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails and place with green light. You can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on what your kids are.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Spending with real time notifications.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk [e-mail] iheart Alex Thompson is the national political correspondent for Axios and the co author of the book Original Sin, President Biden's decline, its cover up and his disastrous choice to to run for president again right here. Alex, you ruined my sleep. I was up for two nights, till 3 o' clock in the morning reading this book, getting everything down, getting notes and questions. It is a page turner. It is genuinely a very, very well written, compelling, even sympathetic book at times. It really was very good. Thank you so. And I know that conservative media is definitely having its moment with you guys, but I don't want to ask. I don't want to. I want. This is not a Megyn Kelly interview. She's fine, but not an interview. So my first question about like the book, because I want to get to the bones of the book, is when you, as someone who's written a book before, when you write a book, when you reach out to the publisher, you, the publisher asks who is the audience? Who was the audience in mind when you were writing this book? Because a lot of times it seems like it's for a Democratic audience. Is that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You mean this, you mean this book? You think it's for a Democratic audience?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Your book? Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

No, I actually think our intention, and I don't know if we achieved it, was that it actually would be both the right and the left. We thought that basically we pitched that liberals are going to be sort of disoriented and want to know how, what, what happened. And our hope was that conservatives, even though a lot of conservatives obviously feel deep frustration because they feel they'd been saying that, hey, he was in decline for a long time and felt that that was not being covered aggressively by much of the mainstream media. We thought that still conservatives would be interested in the behind the scenes story.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Oh, behind the scenes stories are wild. I touched upon them when the donors yelling at Doug Emhoff, saying, you ruined democracy, I was like Whoa.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And John, that was director Rob Reiner. So, you know, we were hoping that even though Republicans, I think, feel a little disillusioned and also feel like, duh, you know, I think the behind the scenes details of how the Democratic Party covered up for Biden for so long, we thought that and we said this, I mean this, this was literally our pitch to the publisher that this is not a right leaning book or a left leaning book like, or the audience is not necessarily left leaning or right leaning. We think there's good arguments to both sides to be interested.

[Ryan Gradosky]

I think that maybe because all the sources were mostly all Democrats, I think that maybe that's why there's left leaning comp, like mannerism of speaking. I noticed that, but I just wanted to know your opinion on that. So there is. Joe Biden and Donald Trump have something very much in common, which is their internal ethos is that they believe that they are outsiders. They believe that the media, the elites, the establishment hate them and that everything that they have accomplished is in defiance of those forces. Can you describe the ethos? Because Biden almost is like a Kennedy esque mentality where he created his own legend, like Jackie created the legend of Camelot, and then all the living Kennedys just assumed it. Biden created a legend of himself and then everyone just assumed it. Could you describe that in the book?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, we even call it became a Biden theology. And I'd say the first commandment of that theology is that Biden always gets back up. Biden is always counted out and he always comes back and proves his critics wrong. I'd say there, you know, there's also parts of the theology in the same way there are with, you know, with Camelot and with whatever, you know, I don't know if you want to call it mag a court or something, but with Trump, that there are, there are parts of the theology that, you know, if you take a step back, certainly ring faults and you know, and you know, for instance, one person very close to the family, they, they basically said, you know, parts of the, like, parts of the tenets of the Biden theology are like, you know, that hunters, you know, that Hunter's sobriety is stable, that Joe cares more about his family than his ambition, that Jill is like a very warm and nice person. And, and, and they repeat these things as if they are just obvious facts.

[Ryan Gradosky]

And don't call fat people fat, which Joe did at the campaign, called someone fat in New Hampshire, which was so fascinating.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But, but the Biden press team insisted to us that he didn't.

[Ryan Gradosky]

So I think it's on camera.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Have to fact check you there. Yeah, I think, I don't remember what their spin was. I think they, they were like, I can't remember what word they said he said, but it was obvious like a via. Via spin. But Y rule the other Biden rule of don't call fat people fat, which you know, in some ways is being polite. But the other, the dark side of that saying is ignore inconvenient truths.

[Ryan Gradosky]

What it so the evolution of Jill Biden in your book is fascinating because you say in the beginning of the book that Jill did not like being a politician's wife or she wasn't a natural. She wasn't. She didn't. Because she worked. I did not know that she was a professor or even while she was second lady. And she all of a sudden goes from being kind of in the background and begrudgingly in the background to being a quasi chief of staff and having her own team run large segments of the White House. That was why did she change?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Great question. I think some people, and I guess there's no one clean answer, according to people that have, that have talked to her or that worked for her or our sources within the White House. And to your point, she taught college, even through the presidency, she still taught at a community college. And I think what people around her say is that something seemed to change over the course of the vice presidency and then certainly in the intervening years post the vice presidency. And some people felt that she fell in love with the life and, you know, the Vogue covers and sort of, you know, the elevated style and elegance. And I also think that she definitely deeply loves Joe. And I think I remember someone said to me that Joe Biden is nothing if not for this and saw him sort of in the wilderness in those years, 17, 18, and saw that this gave him purpose and that it was everything he ever wanted. I think both the combination of falling in love with a life, but also this, you know, it's sort of like the dark side of loyalty and love. Right. Is that it can't, you know, you can end up justifying more and more. And so and to your point, the early signs that she is going to be a very, as someone in the White House put it, there's several people in the White House put it, one of the most powerful first ladies in American history. The signs are there at the beginning of 2019, 2020, when her top aide, a man named Anthony Bernal, is made.

[Ryan Gradosky]

One of the your characterizations of him by the way, are hysterical. Sorry. They're so funny. I could picture him, even though I've never seen him or heard him before, I was like, oh, I know this person.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He's certainly. There is a certain archetype both as a person and a DC sort of DC like advanced man operative.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Anyway, he becomes one of the deputy campaign managers on the campaign. Very unusual. And then once they go into the White House, he becomes sort of like a shadow, like personnel officer, placing this person and that person, you know, and his. His main coda is like, loyalty above everything. And there is. There is no greater virtue and no greater sin than being even perceived as disloyal. And he becomes seen internally as sort of loyalty police. And he is constantly in the first lady's ear. This person is this. This person is this. And so when he. And he becomes incredibly important in the president's scheduling, he's sitting in the president's scheduling meetings and, you know, like, basically the conversation ender is he'll be like, jill won't like this. You know, and then. And the conversation's over. And because if you object, then maybe. Oh, is that because you're disloyal? You know, and the. The way that she eventually. The combination of them to sort of slowly pushed out anyone seen as disloyal and sort of placed all people that they trusted. You know, I think they. You know, people have said that both if she was like the most powerful. One of the most powerful first ladies, he was certainly probably the most powerful first lady chief of staff we've maybe ever seen.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Yeah. So you brought the Vogue covers. And that's interesting, because I remember hearing from my friends in Capitol Hill and in various positions that that was a big contention because Kamala Harris got a vote cover before Jill Biden, which is not traditional, though. We've never had a female vice president before. And Jill. Jill never seemed to like Kamala Harris. She never trusted her because of the original thing of calling basically Biden a racist during the debate. And you made an illusion that she, you know, forgave and I forget, yada, yada, yada. And Biden didn't really want her. He wanted Gretchen Whitmer and was really pushing to her. Do you think that he ever. And he was, by incredibly destructive to her presidential campaign, and she. What you characterize as her being more loyal to him than him to her. Do you think that he, at the end of his presidency, regretted picking her?

[Unnamed Speaker]

No, because it's like one of those things, like a president can't Ever say they regretted it.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Like, because it's such a consequent decision. Do I think there were, I can tell you this, there were a lot of feelings among Biden's top staff that regretted picking her. I remember while I was reporting this book, the book's called Original Sin, they were like, no, no, no, the original sin is not him running again. It's picking Kamala Harris because they did not have confidence that she would be a good candidate or that she could win.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Right. Well, even when they realized top Democrats realized something's wrong with Joe Biden, we might need to replace him. Their initial thing is, let's get Gretchen Whitmer, her name is, comes up far more frequently in the early conversations. And it's only the Black Caucus that sits there. And it's like, you're not going to pick. You're not going to sidestep the first black female president, female vice president for the nomination. What did top Democrats see in her as a liability early on that they knew about as way before? I think most other ones did?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, she ran a disastrous 2020 presidential campaign despite massive hype and, you know, big crowds early on. She didn't even, she had to drop out early and didn't have to go to Iowa. You can see the revolving door of staff that have gone through her office. Back when she was a state attorney general, she'd also really, with the exception of, like, 2010 Attorney General race, she never won a tough race. And that 2010 Attorney General race, she barely won. She, I mean, she underperformed the rest of the ticket.

[Ryan Gradosky]

She won by two points, I think, or a point and a half in California, which is not good for a Democrat.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And a lot of people thought that, you know, she wasn't especially nice to staff and didn't seem to get in the weeds of the substance. And I just think, and also I think, you know, I think Democrats, especially this generation of Democrats, which, remember, sort of like, you know, Northeast liberal, were worried about, you know, San Francisco liberal.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And.

[Ryan Gradosky]

And it's a different kind of liberal.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. But, but a similar sort of, you know, a similar can, can be sort of seen especially it's a different story liberal, especially on cultural issues, which you saw in sort of the Trump campaign response to her. She had, she had joined much of the rest of the party and running to the left in 2019. So I think the combination of all of those things, plus Pelosi and Kamala have never gotten along. Going back to San Francisco days like Zay Pelosi Supported her opponent in the DA race back in, like, 2004, whatever year that was. So this goes back, like, a long way.

[Ryan Gradosky]

And Gavin Newsom didn't like her a lot of. I mean, Kamala, you don't have to be likable to me to make friends. Apparently, something you didn't touch on in the book that much. And I thought it was a glaring thing with conservatives that we talk about and we've talked about for a long time is this. The Biden family business is very much connected to their connection towards Joe and Joe's connection to power. Was that a motivating factor in why Jill and Hunter did not want him to drop out? Was that there? No. And the brother, too, did not want him to drop out. And they all make money off of being close to the president and the former vice president.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. I think, you know, with Hunter, I think it was actually more because it wasn't like Hunter was able to do any more business anymore. Right. Because there was so much scrutiny.

[Ryan Gradosky]

He was still selling paintings, though.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, well, he had to stop because of the scrutiny already. Like, in 2021, he was still painting, but he wasn't able to sell them.

[Ryan Gradosky]

So, you know, had Hitler been as successful as Hunter BIDEN, World War II would have never happened.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But it was. I think. I think it was a combination of. Actually, for Hunter in particular, I think it was a combination of both, you know, livelihood. Because, you know, while Biden was president, you know, I think he felt confident he would stay out of jail. And I think he, you know, he has, like, a very nice life that's sort of propped up by this former Hollywood agent. He lives in, like, this great, beautiful house in Malibu. You know, so he's living, like, a comfortable existence and doesn't have a job besides painting. So I think there's a livelihood part of it. But also, I think, you know, I think. And we get into this a little bit, the Hunter's sobriety is so caught up in his dad's staying in office. Because you have to remember, when Joe ran, decided to run in April 2019, Hunter was still in, like, the depths of his crack addiction, and they didn't even know where he was most the time.

[Ryan Gradosky]

That scene where Joe is chasing him, trying to get him into rehab is really powerful and compelling.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Thank you. And he's, you know, he's. He's falling, and it's. It's so striking. He gets sober, like, three weeks after his dad gets in the presidential race. That's his sobriety date under oath in Court.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And so, you know, I think that was sort of keeping him stable. You know, Jill, I think, like, as we said, like, liked the life. You know, her top aide would always be like, we'll do this in the second term. We're going to do this trip in the second term. This and that. You know, I think there was like, a livelihood. The. I think. And I, I get like, the question of, like, why didn't you go more into the business stuff? I think because of the tremendous scru. Scrutiny and the Republican investigations. A lot of like, the sketchy, the sketchy details that they got away with and the VP years. And in the, in the years between VP and president, they actually weren't doing as much.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Yeah, but even, I mean, after Biden leaves the White House, he gets a talent agent. Like.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, but he did that after he was vice president too.

[Ryan Gradosky]

I guess. So. I don't know. I've heard, I mean, there's some reportings that they are looking to try to make more money right now, and the family needs money. And it's just, it's a fascinating thing that this was so often their business model as being close to power. And was Bo going to be that person to offer them that access had he not died? I make. That's a question lurks in my mind. Obviously, you can't. No one knows what the answer is, but they do. But no one else knows the answer. Sounds fascinating. Your book, Robert her couldn't find a job after his thing because he was smeared so badly by Kamala Harris and Democrats.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. And you know, this is a point when like, any, any potential plausible deniability by, like, Democrats who had spent time with Joe Biden goes out the window because, you know, you could, you could try to make an argument that they're just like, they're doing their job and they're spinning, you know, they're spinning for him and they're, they're trying to, you know, prop him up and make him the best, you know, Biden possible. But after the, her report, they, they not only slime Robert Hur, they slime Merrick Garland, they slime their own Justice Department in order to try to save him. Even though I just find it. Even though they, a lot of people in that White House, even if they won't admit it publicly, knew that Robert Hur was right. They may object to him putting in the report, but they knew he was right and they decided to try to destroy him.

[Ryan Gradosky]

So George Clooney is mentioned a lot in the book because he does all these fundraisers and he's a very well known Democrat. Someone I never knew that was involved in the campaign was Steven Spielberg. I don't know if that was reported before you guys. I never knew that before Spielberg was cutting videos for Biden. So he had one on one time, significant one on one time with Joe Biden. Did anyone from his camp ever say something like George Clooney did?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Not that I'm aware of. And we would have obviously put in the book if that was the case. But yes, you know, they were trying because. And we talked about this before, you know, like the Biden struggled with taped remarks and that's why they had to do all the jump cuts and everything. Right. And so, you know, it got to the point of, in some ways you could look at it like from the outside and you're like, it got to the point when they were so desperate for him to improve that they had to bring in Steven Spielberg as a coach.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Right, right. And I want to ask something about the media, though, because obviously this is the, for conservatives, the media angle is the angle because it was so obvious to conservatives. And you were great reporting at it early. So this is not anything on you, but like Joe Scarborough, I know you were on a show, I think yesterday, the day before, he didn't just say, joe Biden is smart. He said he's the best he's ever been at 80 years old, 81 years old. That's not true of anybody. Like, it's just not true of anybody. You had the guy from the Atlantic who said it's a smear and a lie is there. I know that the media leans left and I know that the media does even when they get, I don't know, the Iraq war wrong or the financial crisis wrong or these big, big, big stories completely incorrect. And a lot of people are kind of like hit, have egg on their face. I think this time is different than those times like the Iraq war, like the financial crisis, because the number one, I guess, victims of getting it wrong, not victims, but the people who felt the hurt from getting it wrong were Democrats. When I feel like when Republicans are the ones hurt from a media narrative getting it wrong or small town America or wherever, it doesn't matter as much to them. Is that something that is completely off the mark.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So you think that the media doesn't feel as guilty?

[Ryan Gradosky]

No, they feel more guilty now than they would have.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, oh. Because they didn't.

[Ryan Gradosky]

When the Iraq war happened and everyone got it completely wrong, no one quit their job and said oh, my God, I can't believe I'm such a bad reporter. This one. They're at least in there and saying, wow, we have to have a culpability moment. And they haven't, despite losing support in the public for a very long time.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. So what's the question? Exactly?

[Ryan Gradosky]

So the question is, is my assumption anywhere close to the mark? Is that the people in the media are having a come to Jesus moment in some capacity because their readership leans left, their friends lean left, and they all want to know why they weren't more honest. Is it like. Or. And why aren't anyone. I just have a very tough time. I have a very tough time. People like in the Atlantic saying, it's a smear, it's a lie, and everyone in the media just refused to sit there and say what we saw. Like, they just took the White House's word as, as, as carte blanche.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That's interesting. I haven't detected a huge. I mean, I, I think, you know, I think, you know, I think it's too. I haven't detected actually like a huge sort of like, you know, reckoning or being like. I, I honestly still feel there's like a defensiveness. And I think it's because they can point back and like, we were talking about age plenty and like. But the thing is, they were often talking about age in a horse race sense as like, oh, the polls say his age is a liability, and then talk about whatever. But, like, that was so they were like, we. There was volume, but there wasn't excavation, if that makes sense.

[Ryan Gradosky]

So it still hasn't happened, the media.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, I will, you know, for, for what it's worth. And I know probably, I know some conservatives, a lot of conservatives really don't like Jake Tapper, but I think I.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Wasn'T gonna bring that up.

[Unnamed Speaker]

No, no, no. But I mean, my co author, Jake Captor, I think it's to his credit that he has been like, on this issue. I should have done better.

[Ryan Gradosky]

I would love to know from Jake, does he. And I'll ask you the same question. Do you read any alternative media?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, of course.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Like who? I just wanted. Curious.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, I mean, I don't know. I, I listen to. Man do listen to Megyn Kelly, like, fairly often.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Okay.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Obviously, like free press, a free beacon, trying to think like, Twitter feed.

[Ryan Gradosky]

I'm just joking.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Twitter feed. Plenty of like. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you consider like, even like, commentary or like some of those guys or like.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Victor Scott Hansen or.

[Ryan Gradosky]

I think it's important because people, we feel like we're screaming into a void sometimes. So I think for conservatives to even know that you read something is really important. And I think that you're a really good journalist. So I'm not blaming. I'm not saying thank you. But I think that I do feel that. So my last.

[Unnamed Speaker]

They feel disrespected. Like, like, and then. And then, like. And I can understand how. Then they're like, we were saying that he was having trouble, and then, like, two mainstream reporters come in and be like, well, we wrote a book about it, See. So I can understand, like, the. The. The. The skepticism. But, yeah, I mean, I think. I think it's like, really. Because the thing is that, like, I think the mainstream. Some mainstream reporters just do not recognize they. They're still in sort of denial about the power of alternative. And that includes even sort of, like, you know, somewhat adjacent, which is, like, flagrant or, like, you know, obviously Rogan is the most famous, you know, Theo Vaughn, and all those ones that are.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Well, establishment media matters because it is a qualifying thing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Oftentimes alternative media just echoes or battles establishment media to themselves. That's why I think it's important that they know you even pay attention to them. So I know you're short on time, so I don't want to. There's one last question I asked my Twitter followers to ask you. What's a question to ask you? So this is the one that I got a lot. We saw in a press meeting that President Biden received a question ahead of time from Courtney Sir Serbian. Was that the standard, that he would get questions in the press ahead of time, and who was in charge of giving him questions from the press ahead of time?

[Unnamed Speaker]

So, no, it's not standard. So what I'll tell you what happens is that. But they do. They do decide who gets a question. And then what the White House will do, the press office will do is then they'll go to the person, right? And they'll, like, sort of sidle up and they'll be very friendly. And they're like, what are you thinking about asking? What do you think? You know? And, you know, most of the time, reporters just, like, show, like, a little bit of leg, but, like, not really. And I think in that case, it was probably just a case where. And I don't know. But, you know, sometimes I won't take that example out of it. I think sometimes reporters sort of said too much. Right. But I think that was the exception to the Rule. I think the bigger, you know, I think to your reader's point though, the bigger problem in my mind was pre selecting which reporters got the questions. I mean, it wasn't like he did a ton anyway, but like I never got a question in four years, really never. And I don't think even, I don't think Axios ever got a question. And when I was at Politico, I don't know if Politico ever got a question. So it was the pre selecting of reporters that, I mean, they know enough about which reporters care about which issue, right? So they're like, we know this guy is interested in this and we, this is what we want to talk about, right? So I think that was actually the way that they controlled, you know, what he was going to be asked more so than like the note card thing, right.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Well, Alex, this is the book of the year right now. Congratulations. All the good press you've got. To all my listeners, Original Sin is a great, it's a great read. One to understand the humanity of certain people that seem so distant because they are the President, the President's family, and also to see really what it is like in political circles. The scene of John Fetter Thurman screaming at his fellow senators was like jaw dropping. And I also got the audiobook as well to hear it when I was doing things and Jake Tapper doing voices. Accents is hilarious. So if you can't actually read and you want to listen to it, his accents are like Bernie Sanders and whatnot. Was very, very funny. It is a great.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I haven't listened to the audiobook yet. I had no idea about the accents.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Well, he does accents for all the people. Oh, it's really. No, there are times there. It's actually like, I was like, this is actually really good. And I'm like, oh, this is a rough New York accent right over here. But it's really, really good. Congratulations on it and I highly recommend it to all my listeners. I think that it's definitely the book of the year so far.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That really means a lot. Thank you very much for having me.

[Ryan Seacrest]

While others are sitting in lecture halls, you're already building your future at Ferris State University. Hands on training starts from day one. With real world skills that lead straight to careers in construction, engineering, automotive tech and more. You're not just learning, you're earning. Building a life you can be proud of. And with in state tuition for out of state students, success is within reach. Ferris State University unleash your potential. Register now at Ferris Edu that's Ferris Edu.

[Alex Thompson]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent, where money means more Connect with.

[Unnamed Speaker]

[e-mail] hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty, beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaning beauty.com.

[Cindy Crawford]

At Ameca Insurance, we know it's more than just a house. It's your home. The place that's filled with memories. The early days of figuring it out to the later years of still figuring.

[Ryan Gradosky]

It out.

[Cindy Crawford]

For the place you've put down roots. Trust Amica Home Insurance Amica Empathy is our best policy.

[Walton Goggins]

So you want to start a business? You might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills, but listen to me when I say you don't. You just need GoDaddy arrow. I'm Walton Goggins, an actor, and I like the sound of starting my own business. Walton Goggins Goggle Glasses. But I couldn't do this my own. GoDaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo, it'll create a custom website, it'll write social posts for you, and even set you up with a social media calendar. How cool is that? Well, listen to this. For a limited time, you can get Arrow all access for just a dollar a week for 12 weeks. We're talking all the AI power of GoDaddy arrow plus a domain E commerce store, payments, professional email, a unified inbox. All for less money than I spend on deep tanning lotion while sunbathing off the Amalfi coast. You know what? That sounds like a plan. Get [e-mail] terms apply.

[Ryan Gradosky]

That was Alex Thompson, once again of the great book Original Sin. I really did like it. I'm not just saying it because he was here, because I don't peddle other people's nonsense. Besides My own, but it was a really good book. And it really, really, really went into, like, the human interactions of senators and stuff like that. And I think he looked. He gave us some good tidbits right there of interactions, especially on Jill Biden. I think that she's really the Lady Macbeth figure in this entire thing. So I want to go into my question and answer. You can ask me a question on basically anything. Email me, Ryan, Numbers Game podcast dot com. That's Ryan at numbers plural. Numbers game podcast dot com. Send me a tweet, ask me a question, and I love to answer it. Someone asked me today, have you watched the Nancy Mace footage on the House floor this week? So if you guys do not know. Nancy Mace posted a video of herself naked that I think someone else took without her permission, and she put into the Congressional Record, which means it's there for, like, all time. That was wild. And no, I did not watch it. I didn't watch it because I have. I've only met Nancy Mace one time before. It was in a private meeting with people. It wasn't on the record or anything like that, but it was really kind of crazy. And she was there with her then fiance, who I think she has accused of something horrible. I don't want to say the accusation was. It was some kind of accusation. They have since broken up. And we get into the dinner table and Nancy is like, talking a mile a minute. And one of her, like, first things that she says is she's like, oh, I'm down to just one glass of wine a day. To which her person who worked with her, like, went like this. Like, he, like, nodded, no, I forget, there's no camera. He nodded no. He was like, she's not down to one glass a day. And then she's introducing her fian and she's like, I thought that he was wealthy the first time I met him. It turns out that he's broke. And I was like, what? I was like, hi, my name is Ryan. We didn't gotten to that part yet. She was talking a mile a minute. And the context, what we had a conversation with was great afterwards, but it was like, started at an 11 and it worked its way down from there rather than working its way up. She was perfectly lovely, but very intense. And she seems to go through husbands, fiances, and staff very, very quickly. I don't know what that's all about. I don't know why she seeks this much attention on many things, but she does. And I did not watch her include her naked photos in the Congressional Record because I have other things to do with my time. Anyway, that's my little Nancy Mae story. These Congressional stories, my my political run run ins over time are pretty funny. I am like Forrest Gump. I am like a New York version of Forrest Gump. It's a different accent. Well, thank you guys again for listening for this episode. Have a Happy Memorial Day. I hope you have had a great three day weekend, nice and relaxing and come back on Thursday and listen to our next episode like and subscribe on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you get your podcasts. If you're generous and if you're feeling generous, and I hope you are, give us a five star review. Thank you so much.

[Ryan Seacrest]

While others are sitting in lecture halls, you're already building your future at Ferris State University. Hands on training starts from day one. With real world skills that lead straight to careers in construction, engineering, automot tech and more, you're not just learning, you're earning. Building a life you can be proud of. And with in state tuition for out of state students, success is within reach. Ferris State University Unleash your potential. Register now at Ferris. Edu. That's Ferris Edu.

[Alex Thompson]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent where money means more. Connect with [e-mail] I already love same.

[Ryan Gradosky]

Day delivery with Shipt, but it's so much better since I signed up for target's circle 360. Why? Because I no longer pay price markups from the majority of stores through Shipt, only a handful of alcohol retailers and items don't count. That means no markups on groceries, pet food, even home goods and makeup. So to recap, I have more time to catch up on life while someone shops for me and I spend less. It's a win win. Order [e-mail]360 Terms apply.

[Unnamed Speaker]

People choose Morton Buildings to build a variety of buildings for their property any time of year because they know Morton buildings are built strong, last longer and look better. If you need a garage, a stall barn or a storage building for an rv boat or other vehicles, a shop for your farm hobbies or car restoration projects or anything in between, Morton can create a building for you that's attractive, easy to maintain and dependable enough to stand the test of time. Just visit MortonBuildings.com today to find out more. They use quality materials and expert craftsmen with an industry leading warranty to ensure your structure is enjoyed by generations to come. Morton buildings is 100% employee owned with thousands of satisfied customers. That means they're the industry leader you can trust. To get started on your next building project, visit MortonBuildings.com don't delay. Construction schedules are filling up fast so now's the time to start planning your building project with Morton. That's MortonBuildings.com Sonesta Travel Pass is the.

Most rewarding way to travel. Sign [e-mail] for instant savings, bonus points and perks like early check in and late checkout, room upgrades and free stays. Choose from 1100 hotels across 13 brands and unlock their best rates when you book with Sonesta Travel Pass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now at sinesta. That's sinesta.com terms and conditions apply.

[Ryan Gradosky]

You're listening to an I Heart podcast.