It's a Numbers Game: Unveiling the Complex World of Jeffrey Epstein with Vicky Ward

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Episode: "It's a Numbers Game: Unveiling the Complex World of Jeffrey Epstein with Vicky Ward"
Release Date: July 14, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, host Ryan Gradusky delves deep into the enigmatic and controversial figure of Jeffrey Epstein. Moving beyond the typical discussions surrounding Epstein’s criminal activities, Ryan aims to unravel the complex web of relationships, power dynamics, and unanswered questions that continue to shroud the case. To provide expert insights, Ryan welcomes Vicky Ward, a pioneering journalist known for her groundbreaking work on Epstein.

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The Mystery of Jeffrey Epstein

Ryan opens the discussion by expressing his fascination with true crime and the Epstein case, highlighting the dual nature of the story: the overt sexual misconduct and the intricate network of powerful individuals connected to Epstein. He remarks, “The crime is pretty simple to understand, but the mystery is the person and why” (03:30).

Epstein’s ability to associate with a diverse array of individuals—from royalty and politicians to billionaires and academics—raises questions about his true influence and the extent of his reach. Ryan points out the significant increase in search queries related to Epstein following remarks from former President Trump, noting a “Streisand effect” where attempts to suppress information only amplify public interest (04:50).

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Ghislaine Maxwell's Role

Vicky Ward provides a nuanced perspective on Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein’s close associate. She explains, “Ghislaine Maxwell...kept his interest by sort of pushing closer to the edge sexually. And that began a slippery slope” (14:28). Vicky emphasizes Maxwell’s European upbringing and her dependence on Epstein, suggesting that her actions were driven by a combination of personal desperation and loyalty.

Their collaboration illustrates how Epstein’s relationships were not just about facilitating his illicit activities but also about maintaining his influence and protection. Vicky highlights Maxwell’s role in recruiting underage girls and sustaining Epstein’s network, underscoring the symbiotic yet toxic dynamics between them.

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Epstein's Influence and Connections

The conversation shifts to Epstein’s strategic use of his vast network. Vicky elaborates on Epstein’s understanding of “soft power,” explaining how he leveraged his connections to offer access to other influential figures. She states, “Epstein understood many things about very rich people. He understood, for example, that if they get defrauded, they don't go to the authorities” (20:15).

One notable example discussed is Epstein's relationship with Bill Gates. Vicky suggests that Gates sought Epstein’s introduction to other billionaires and powerful individuals, positioning Epstein as a valuable connector within elite circles. This manipulation of relationships underscores Epstein’s cunning in maintaining his status and shielding his activities from scrutiny.

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Missing Files and Conspiracies

A significant point of contention is the Trump administration’s refusal to release Epstein’s full files. Ryan questions the lack of transparency, asking, “What happened to all his money? What happened to his stuff?” (24:25). Vicky responds by highlighting the probable reasons behind the administration’s stance, including the reluctance of Epstein’s defrauded associates to come forward due to potential reputational damage.

The discussion also touches upon the missing tapes discovered during the FBI’s raid on Epstein’s island. Vicky notes, “What happened to all his money? I mean, what happened to his stuff?” (24:32), emphasizing the numerous unanswered questions and the potential for significant information being withheld or lost.

Ryan further explores the possibility of Epstein acting as an agent for foreign entities, particularly Israel, given his connections with influential Israeli figures. Vicky remains cautious, stating, “I think, you know, my reporting suggests probably not” (27:09), but acknowledges the complexities of Epstein’s international relationships.

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Vicky Ward's New Book: "The Idaho Four"

Transitioning from Epstein, Ryan introduces Vicky Ward’s latest work, The Idaho Four, which examines a separate but equally disturbing case involving the brutal murder of three young women and a man in Moscow, Idaho. Vicky describes the book as a combination of true crime and an exploration of social and political tensions within the community.

She details the perpetrator, Bryan Coburger, highlighting his background in criminology and his descent into rage fueled by internet subcultures like the incel movement. Vicky draws parallels between Coburger’s actions and those of serial killers, noting, “He was doing a PhD in criminology... it's a horrific set of circumstances all coming together” (37:30).

The book delves into the investigative challenges faced by law enforcement, particularly the use of investigative genetic genealogy which ultimately led to Coburger’s identification. Vicky emphasizes the technological advancements that have revolutionized cold case resolutions, bringing a sense of closure to families affected by such tragedies.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Ryan praising Vicky Ward’s insightful contributions and her ability to intertwine complex narratives within her reporting. He encourages listeners to engage with her work, particularly The Idaho Four, and commends her for shedding light on both historical and contemporary mysteries.

Vicky expresses gratitude for the opportunity to discuss these critical issues, emphasizing the importance of responsible journalism in uncovering the truth and addressing societal problems. The conversation leaves listeners with a deeper understanding of Epstein’s intricate web of influence and the ongoing quest for justice in other significant criminal cases.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Gradusky (03:30): “The crime is pretty simple to understand, but the mystery is the person and why.”

• Vicky Ward (14:28): “Ghislaine Maxwell...kept his interest by sort of pushing closer to the edge sexually. And that began a slippery slope.”

• Vicky Ward (20:15): “Epstein understood many things about very rich people. He understood, for example, that if they get defrauded, they don't go to the authorities.”

• Vicky Ward (27:09): “I think, you know, my reporting suggests probably not.”

• Vicky Ward (37:30): “He was doing a PhD in criminology... it's a horrific set of circumstances all coming together.”

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This summary provides a comprehensive overview of the episode, capturing the essence of the discussions between Ryan Gradusky and Vicky Ward. It highlights the key points surrounding Jeffrey Epstein’s complex network, the role of Ghislaine Maxwell, and insights into Vicky Ward’s investigative prowess showcased in her new book.

Transcript

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[Ryan Gradusky]

Welcome back to A Numbers Game with Ryan Gradusky. Happy Monday everybody. I'm excited that you're all here. So if you're a loyal listener of this podcast, I mostly stick to conversations about elections or some battleground election stuff or some issue stuff. I try hard not to chase fads because I think that that's a losing game. I see what's on social media, but I don't participate very often. And a lot of people who do podcasts want to make their audience comfortable. They want to regurgitate what they already believe. I try to make my audience as informed as possible with data. That being said, I'm going to break all those rules on this episode because if you follow my social media for some time, you know that I am a crime junkie. I read True Crime, I listen to it, I absorb far too much of it. And sometimes I'll catch myself at 2am still up thinking, you know what? Tonight's the night I'm going to crack the JonBenet Ramsey case. I'm going to do it by wikipediaing the, you know, the shit out of this campaign, out of this, out of this case. And I'm going to figure out everything. It never happens, but I know there's like a delusion. So I'm very well aware how crazy it is. But like most Americans, I find true crime fascinating. And I have found the Jeffrey Epstein case fascinating. I mean, I'm only human because not only does it deal with someone who truly is a mystery when it comes to everything but the crime. The crime is pretty simple to understand, but the mystery is the person and why. This person was surrounded by all these very, very, very important people by from everyone from princes and kings and prime ministers and presidents to billionaires and entrepreneurs and lawyers and scientists. As many of you know, last week when President Trump's administration that there was no episod Epstein's list of people he was blackmailing. There was no that he did in fact kill himself in prison. And the President Trump himself said, why are you still talking about Epstein? People were outraged by what Trump said and still very curious. Search engines reported that Epstein's name, along with the word Trump, increased by 1200% after Trump made those comments from the week prior it was the number one search thing in connection to President Trump. More than Elon Musk, more than tariffs, more than anything, Epstein became the topic. He had a Streisand effect by trying to not make it the topic he made of the topic. People are calling for Trump's administration to release the full Epstein file, something the administration is refusing to do. They're basically saying the case is closed. Ironically, one of these people calling for the full release of the file is Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon, which many people do not remember or know, is that in 2019, before he killed himself in prison and before he was arrested, Bannon had a. He might have been arrested, but he didn't kill himself yet, obviously. But before he died, Bannon had a 15 hour recorded interview with Epstein that he has never released in all these years. He said he was gonna make a documentary about it, but he's never released these 15 hours of videos. And he's one of the people sitting there and saying, you got to release, you know, got to release the full Epstein file. And he has not released these very important videos. Now, I think lost in the headlines, but the Trump administration's claim that there was no official list, I think. I think what they were saying was like, there's no Excel file. There's no Excel file of the people he was blackmailing. There were clearly people that he was pure curing young girls to. Right. There's no question that Prince Andrew seemed to be, or allegedly Prince Andrew was getting young girls to have sexual encounters with him. And he was just one of possibly many, but that's the most obvious one. And it wasn't because, you know, Jeffrey Epstein and Prince Andrew have so much in common. Like, they were getting tea and then they said, hey, what are you doing this weekend? Let's go to my island. I think also lost in this conversation and lost in the confusion. But whatever happened to so much of Epstein's stuff for the Epstein case? There was a case where Epstein, and we may never know this, but there was a case when the FBI went and raided the island and the search warrant did not include what was in the safe, but they had, said the FBI agents, so they saw tapes in the case in the safe, and when they went back there several weeks later, all the tapes were destroyed or gone or missing, whatever, something happened to them. What happened to all his money? What happened to his stuff? I mean, what happened to his clients stuff? There was other things that the FBI got a hold of. There's things that the FBI never got a hold of. That somebody must have somewhere. And the fact that the Trump administration is trying to run away from this issue is making people more curious. Comedian Andrew Schultz, who had Trump on his podcast, he's got a huge podcast. He had Trump on last time before the election. He went on a tirade. He was screaming about that, you know, people like AOC were the real America first people, because Trump won't release the tapes and he's lying to us. I have two major thoughts on this. First, there are too many people in the Trump orbit who jumped on every conspiracy about Epstein and a lot of other things that had no proof. And I'm sorry, but Cash Patel spent a lot of time on podcasts that promoted a lot of nonsense to people. Things that were. I mean, he was, at times, he was on podcasts that were just inches away from saying JFK Jr. Was alive and would be Trump's running mate. Promote a lot of stuff to people who have, for lack of a better term, antisocial behavioral issues where they don't trust anything. And some of them have a right not to trust some stuff that the government does and some stuff that wealth people do. I get it. But they feed that. They fed the beast and now he is the beast and he has to answer to it. He was extremely irresponsible as a private citizen to build a fan base. This happens in online culture a lot. It happens in right wing culture a lot. The left does it too. They say outrageous things. They say things that aren't true. They lie to their audience over and over and over again to get more followers to feed the worst narratives by the other side. I see it from both sides. It happens everywhere. It's still wrong and it's still irresponsible. And you live by the conspiracy theory, you die by the conspiracy theory. Not every rich person is a Satanist. Not everyone's a child molester. Not everyone's everything. Secondly, and I don't think that this is necessarily right to say, but I'll say this is that Epstein was way too close to too many powerful people and entities to completely expose them. We're not going to completely expose all these people he was around. There's just no way. We're 60 something years since the JFK assassination and we're just finding out about the CIA's relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald and everyone in that case is dead. Like, I mean, there might be one person in a nursing home, but everyone else is gone. And they still won't tell us the unredacted truth about that case. You know, so the idea that they were going to tell everyone about Jeffrey Epstein on all of his clients, where everyone's still alive or most of them are still alive, I think was a pipe dream. I think they shouldn't have promised that when it was definitely never going to happen. Now, I don't know everything about the Jeffrey Epstein case, and I have a lot of questions, like, how did he get all of his money? Why was he around these people? Remember, not everyone around him was uber wealthy. Not everyone around him was a billionaire. Not everyone around him was a child molester. Not everyone was a scientist or a president. They all flocked to him, though. Was it just that wealth invites more wealth and power invites more power, and they all had to be, you know, going to this island. I think for some people, it was probable that they were in it to procure sexual advances from young girls, but not all of them. Something else is involved, in my opinion, that I don't think is going to be answered. And also, why is Ghislaine Maxwell then in prison if the Epstein file didn't exist? I think the question over what Ghislaine Maxwell knows and what she doesn't know and what she's saying, what she's not saying is really the bigger question because she's the only living person we have who can still speak the truth, and she's not speaking. And I think that she brings a lot of other questions that people should have. Once again, I don't know these answers, and I don't want to peddle conspiracy theories to get clicks and listens. I think that's very irresponsible, and I'd probably be a very much bigger personality if I did do that, but I'm not going to. But with me on today's episode is someone who, who knows a lot more about this than I do, who spent time with Jeffrey Epstein. She's not a household name, but her name is Vicki ward. And in March 2003, Vicki wrote a groundbreaking piece for Vanity Fair called the talented Mr. Epstein. This was before the Palm beach police was investigating him on the subject of the matter. Vicki was the first journalist to really spend significant time with him and to ask a question over his money and his connections, and who were these young girls? It got so bad that the outlet that she was writing for at the time, Vanity Fair, took out some of the most salacious comments because Epstein was threatening to sue and Vicki had to take up personal security for her life. I think she was pregnant at the time because she felt threatened by Epstein, she's. She knows a lot on this matter, far more than I do. And I want to bring on as my next guest to talk really about Jeffrey Epstein, who he was as a person and some of the questions we still think about today. Coming up, next step into the world of power, loyalty and luck. I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse. With family. Cannolis and spins mean everything. Now you want to get mixed up in the family business. Introducing the [e-mail] test your luck on the shadowy world of the Godfather slots. 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[iHeart Podcast Host]

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[Ryan Gradusky]

Vicki Ward is a groundbreaking journalist and the author of the new book the Idaho Four. Vicki, thank you for being on here. I want to talk about your book, but I want to talk about Epstein first. You were the first journalist to write this big profile back in 2003 about Epstein. And you've since said in multiple interviews that the Epstein story is two stories. It's a very simple story story about the sex scandal with the underage girls and the complicated story about his relationship with all these people. One thing I found interesting about your past comments is you said that there's no evidence that Epstein started these sexual encounters before his meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell. She was a very wealthy woman who became very poor. He was a very poor man who became very wealthy. Is it a situation of two people meeting? Do you think that created the situ. That the care of the created scenario or was Ghislaine had a bigger role than people think of just being like a Madam.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Ryan, great question, I think. Thank you for having me. I think it's a. It's a complicated answer. I think Ghislaine Maxwell, you know, was. Had a very sophisticated European upbringing. And so I think that she probably came about from a background that a lot of Americans, you know, where the sexual mores would have been difficult for a lot of Americans to swallow. She, you know, I. So that there is that she was also, as I have reported, tragically desperate after her father died. I use the word tragically because she, you know, she was a very accomplished, well educated woman with a massive international Rolodex who had the abilities to go out and make something of herself. But she believed, largely due to having had a megalomaniacal father, that she was completely dependent on a Man. And the problem was that that man turned out to be Jeffrey Epste. And in order to keep his interest, you know, this was not a man who was likely to be monogamous. I think she pushed, you know, and I've reported this, she kept his interest by sort of pushing closer to the edge sexually. And that began a slippery slope. I mean, we know that she was involved, I mean, in the Encounters in the 1990s and early 2000s with underage women, that she went out and got the women for him. It is also true that Jeffrey Epstein, as you know, was heavily involved with scientists. I mean, one of the reasons he was so, you know, clever at crafting the narrative of Jeffrey Epstein that sort of protected him for so long was that, you know, he, he, he made all this money and then he, he went and courted academics at Harvard and elsewhere. And he was very interested in eugenics and cloning. And I do know from my reporting that he believed, he said this to, to one of his friends who I interviewed several times, a guy called Stuart Piver. He believed that it was, it was society that was out of step in not condoning men having sex with, with children. And that, you know, in that when society evolved to catch up with him, they would, they would stand corrected. So you've got, so you've got two things going on. You've got a man living in a bubble who believes the problem is with everybody else, not with him. And you've got a woman who comes from a slightly different background who's desperate to do anything to keep his protection, you know, his financial protection, but to keep his interest. So it's both things.

[Ryan Gradusky]

What I think is very interesting about this case specifically is the fact that not everyone who was around him was or seems to be or even has been accused of being a pedophile. Not everyone around him is incredibly rich. Not everyone around him is a scientist. Is it that power and influence increased his orbit? Once you have one person, you'll have 50, which we've seen in other big profile cases. Or was he procuring these people to be in his orbit because they were for a greater purpose in his world? Because we don't know really what he did to earn all this money. We don't know where the money really went afterwards, all the, all the other stuff. Was it just the fact that he wanted to have, have everyone's card like a Truman Capote type, or was it that he was procuring them for specific purposes?

[iHeart Podcast Host]

So Jeffrey Epstein understood a fundamental truth about very wealthy people. Is that, you know, when you're at the top of the food chain, there always. There's always something you can't get. And his cleverness, if you want to call it that, was. Was very quickly sizing up. For example, what would Bill Gates, one of the richest men in the world, what could Jeffrey Epstein offer him that he couldn't get elsewhere? And the answer was Jeffrey Epstein's Rolodex, because Bill Gates wanted to scale the Giving Pledge and he wanted to meet other billionaires. That was the whole point of it. And Epstein understood many things about very rich people. He understood, for example, that if they get defrauded, they don't go to the authorities. And he used that to his advantage. But he also understood that his Rolodex was invaluable. I mean, if you look at the discovery in the Jess Staley case, right, where you have all these rushed emails from Jeffrey Epstein, he seems illiterate, which I'm sure was carefully contrived to make him look so busy, when in fact, he had really probably nothing to do. But he's telling Jess Daley, oh, you know, I can get you in front of Prince Andrew. And, you know, think about the psychology of that. Jess Daly was very, very senior banker at J.P. morgan. He probably. He had plenty of money, but what did he not have access to the British royal family? What does Bill Gates probably not have that Jeffrey Epstein could offer him access to Mohammed bin Salman, to the Emir of Qatar? You know, at a certain level, there are, you know, you want introductions to other very rich people. That, in a way, is what makes the world go down, go round. And Jeffrey Epstein really understood how sort of soft power actually works.

[Ryan Gradusky]

Right.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

So, you know, and you asked, though, about the. The sex, you know, the. I think you asked at the beginning of your question. So, I mean, one of the things that was very striking about all the testimony in the Ghislaine Maxwell trial was how, in a sense, inside that Florida home, he and Ghislaine did create a private world into which, you know, the household staff, I think, had a fair idea of what was going on. But, you know, and it became very complicated. Right, because the girls that Ghislaine went out and recruited, I mean, I'm thinking of the late Virginia Roberts Giuffre then went out and recruited other girls.

[Ryan Gradusky]

Right, right.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

So it became a very, very tragic.

[Ryan Gradusky]

Circle when you met him, because the only person I've ever known to have met him was. Is my friend Ann Coulter. She. And she said about this publicly. She had met him at a funeral. And he invited her house. And at one point during the meeting, all the hairs in the back of her head stood up and she said, I have to get out of here, because something was wrong. Was he incredibly charming? No, really, was.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

There was a coldness to his eyes. I mean, and he thought he was incredibly charming, which is completely different. And, you know, he thought by, you know, I met him when I was pregnant and he produced tea and he sat there and ate all the tea and, you know, know never offered me anything. You know, he was. He was a. He was a complete show off. You know, I'm sure he left the Marquis de Sade's book out for me. You know, it was all deliberate and contrived. And then when I got home, you know, he sent me this book on this math textbook and he, I think. And then he had his assistant phone and tell me, you know, how pretty I was. And I can tell you I was not feeling one. It would have been inappropriate in any circumstances. I was pregnant with twins, and I just was thought the whole thing was uncomfortable and absurd. And then obviously, our phone conversations took a turn for the threatening. So I did not see the charm, but I could see why other people might have found him charming.

[Ryan Gradusky]

Did he have a successor? I mean, not a child, but did he have somebody who worked directly underneath him that would have been his fixer and his person besides Ghislaine?

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, part of the tragedy of this, right, is that there were that. That. That he did have a series of personal assistants who unfortunately were victims themselves and then became his personal assistance. And this is why this story is so complicated, because a lot of the names that would be more public are not. So, you know, there are the names of a lot of people that came up in Ghislaine Maxwell's trial. A lot of women who were in the circle of recruitment, but because they initially were Epstein, were Epstein's victims themselves, you know, they. They were not sort of publicly outed, as it were.

[Ryan Gradusky]

The. I want to go to the Trump administration's decision not to release the file, which, I mean, they're saying that there was no list. I think what they mean is, like, there's no Excel list, because that would, of course. Because there wouldn't be an Excel list.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

No, I mean, if Jeffrey Epstein can barely put it together, get, you know, hold it together to send an email, he's not going to have an Excel list.

[Ryan Gradusky]

But I think a question for a lot of people come into Jeffrey Epstein's Foreign dealings. He was very close to the former Prime Minister of Israel. He was close to the Saudi prince, He was close to various African dictators, to the British royal family, to American presidents, to leaders all around the globe. Two things that strike me as one, why hasn't any country seemingly done this investigation into his money and his other stuff? And secondly, is it possible that he was an agent for Israel?

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Well, the other countries wouldn't have done an investigation into his money because why would they? The only people who probably want to know where Jeffrey Epstein's money is are the people who he defrauded. And, and I go back to my earlier statement that he made to me. Rich people don't like to admit if they've been defrauded because it makes them look stupid. So, you know, if he promised people, which I'm sure he did, that he would put money, their money offshore for tax purposes or whatever other purposes. And now they're missing it. You're not likely to hear about it. Remember, Les Wexner, his biggest client, never came forward and said that Jeffrey Epstein had taken money from him until after Jeffrey Epstein was dead and Les Wexner was in the crosshairs. So I think it's really, you know, important fact to remember that. And what was your. Oh, the agent for Israel? Well, look, I mean, Robert Maxwell was unquestionably an agent for Israel, Gulen's father, which is why he's buried in the Mount of Olives. Okay. Jeffrey Epstein, as you've mentioned, had access to Israelis in powerful positions and he knew them well. He also was very immersed in the, what I would call the, the Israeli establishment in America.

[Ryan Gradusky]

A lot of Zionists.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Yes. And. But was he on the payroll of Israel? I think, you know, my reporting suggests probably not. You know, I mean, that. But there are a lot of people who act as influencers, passers of information, you know, who are not typically on a government payroll. He didn't need to be on a government payroll. He was, he was paid by the richest, you know, Zionist in this country, Leslie Wexner. So you know that again and go back to soft power. That's kind of how soft power works. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein was immersed in high level information, just as Robert Maxwell had been, and he probably chose what to do with that. But you, you know, again, go back to the emails with, with Jess Staley. They were very, very instructive as to how he name dropped to suit his purposes. And you know, how, you know, on the one hand, he was sort of dangling carrots in front of Jess Daley. But at the same time, Jess Daley was inadvertently confiding all sorts of information about the inner workings of JP Morgan that he should not have been doing.

[Ryan Gradusky]

So was he. So, in your mind, and this is my last question before I go to your book, but in your mind, was he just somebody who was, for lack of a better term, a brilliant chess player, playing everybody and knowing what everyone's weakness was, and there wasn't a bigger person behind him or a group of entities who are using him to procure information with other wealthy people, like a blackmail list for, for. For the purposes of another country or anything?

[iHeart Podcast Host]

I'm not sure about the blackmail list. He definitely was a. A very clever chess player. I mean, the problem is he was.

[Ryan Gradusky]

You're not sure the blackmail list exists or that he was blackmailing anybody to begin with?

[iHeart Podcast Host]

You know, that is, that is one of the great questions. I mean, the only thing that makes me hesitate about the blackmail list is that these guys, other than Les Wexner and, And, you know, that stayed, I mean, and actually Donald Trump stayed in his orbit. And typically, if someone's blackmailing you, you run right. As far as possible. And with a very. With those two exceptions, people didn't.

[Ryan Gradusky]

So your new book, the Idaho Four, is about the murder case in Moscow, Idaho. That was four young women. Sorry, three young women and a man were brutally murdered in an attack by a knife, by a killer in the middle of the night. There's a lot of questions ongoing in this case, like motive, for example, that I still don't understand. Can you go into the brief overline of your book and, and what you've explored in this, in this book?

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Sure. So it is the story of the murders. It's the story of the victims, the four, you know, really going into their lives and, and, and hopefully keeping them alive in readers minds. It's the story of the murderer in a way that I think nobody has detailed yet. And it's also the story of the political and social tensions in the town where this happened and in the state of Idaho. And it's a story about the negative side of the Internet on all sorts of levels. I mean, the murderer, I, you know, the book sort of takes pains to show is, I think, a construct of the dark corners of the Internet. He became, you know, was a frustrated, what they call incel. Involuntary celibate whose rage was fueled by that world.

[Ryan Gradusky]

Well, he was very overweight and he lost a lot of weight.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Yes.

[Ryan Gradusky]

And he was studying. He was studying serial killers. Was he Not.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Yes, he was exactly. He. He studied serial killers. He definitely was exposed to. The videos are that Elliot Roger, who's kind of like a cult hero of this, the incel movement, who, who was also. Who was a college student when he committed a mass murder suicide that was a deliberate act of vengeance against all the sorority women who, who had rejected him. And Elliot Roger made a series of videos in the hills of Santa Barbara, sitting in his black BMW, saying, I'm now going to go out and. And kill these women who have turned me down. And. And he sent this video to his therapist, who sent it to his mother two minutes before he went out and did exactly that. And there are parallels with Elliot Roger who planned, you know, who also left behind a manifesto which was a sort of memoir of his life. There are parallels.

[Ryan Gradusky]

The killer left a roommate alive and she passed her and she was able to identify as Bushy Eyebrows. Why is there. Did he target these girls? And I mean, I think this guy.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Was just what the friends, the best friends of the victims and what the families believe. And what makes the most sense to me, having sort of tried to go back and trace Bryan Coburger's footsteps, is that he was targeting one of them. He was targeting Maddie Logan. And I say that because, you know, the police have evidence that his was in the neighborhood 12 times that, you know, and if you go to the area of the house, there's only really one place that you can park your car and look at it. And there's only really one window you can see into and it is that of Maddie Mogan's. And the room that he met, he went straight to the night of the murders was Maddie Mogan. And by the. Elliot Roger wrote at length about, he had had one friend who was a woman called Maddie. And he was very. He was furious with her for rejecting him. So that, that's a parallel that may or may not be matter. But, but, you know, Maddie Mogan was asleep in her bed. It was complete chance that her best friend Kaylee Gonsalves was also there. Kaylee Gonzalves had already moved out of the house, was living at home. She had just come into town that one day to show Maddie Mogan her new car.

[Ryan Gradusky]

Yeah.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

So one has to believe that, you know, and, and, and what's, you know, there's a line in the book that now the Gonzalez family have gone public about that that Kaylee woke up and, and struggled. He. The Bryan Kohberger would then have had to come down the stairs to leave the house to the next floor. And that unfortunately, is where Zanna Kernodles room was. And, and tragically, she was still up and awake because she had just ordered a doordash delivery which had just arrived at 4 in the morning, which is something she did very frequently. I mean, she was known to do that and had been a very big party day at the University of Idaho being a football game day. And so unfortunately she was up and about and the signs, you know, she was found with very defensive wounds on her hands, sort of having fallen backward into the room. Her boyfriend Ethan was facing the ball in his bed. He was a very, very tall, handsome, athletic young man. So, I mean, it would appear, it would appear that, you know, Zanna was up and fought Coburger and then he saw this big man, I mean, albeit sleeping. And. But he was, but Ethan Chapin was a big, big guy.

[Ryan Gradusky]

Yeah.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

And then he goes down. He goes down, he passes Dylan Mortensen, who's got her door open just a crack. Why does he ignore her and turn around and force the issue? You know, what, what's what somebody in law enforcement said to me is that given that, you know, if, if one assumes that he went in there intending to kill one person and wound up killing four, that, that the physical, it's hot, you know, that would have been very draining.

[Ryan Gradusky]

Do you think that he intended to become a serial killer? I mean, if he had not been caught this time, do you think that he would intend.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

It was almost the perfect crime. His only mistake was to leave the knife sheath by the bed of Maddie Mogan and Kaylee Gonzalez. And you know, I mean, I, in the book, I take you through the investigation and Police chief of Moscow was very generous with his time to me, and it becomes very clear that were it not in fact that he had. There was a trace of DNA left on the knife sheath.

[Ryan Gradusky]

It was on like the metal button part of it.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Right. And that were it not for the fact that now there is this new methodology of it, what they call investigative genetic genealogy, where they use, you know, websites like ancestry and me, ancestry.com rather in 23andMe, they can go back and they can construct a family tree from the smallest piece of DNA. I mean, that has rev. Revolutionized cold cases. And, and, but, but in this case there was really nothing else. They couldn't see the car clearly. They never found a murder weapon.

[Ryan Gradusky]

His phone was off. They couldn't trace the phone.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

There was nothing else until, until after about six weeks that the DNA they were able to reconstruct the family Tree. And then it's. Then they looked at who with the last name Coburger would have been in the area. And then they could run his driver's license and all the rest of it. They really didn't have anything.

[Ryan Gradusky]

So he learned a lot from the serial killers, I guess.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Well, he, you know, listen, he was doing a PhD in criminology. I mean, what the book also I think shows is his descent into despair. You know, he had, he had hauled himself up from being, as you say, the very overweight loner on the spectrum, the kid who had no friends, who then had a heroin addiction. He, he, he had managed to turn his life around. And now here he is, the other, you know, far away from Pennsylvania where he grew up doing this PhD in criminology. But it all goes wrong because of his heinous views of women, which he's very vocal about. He sort of can't keep them to himself and it gets him into all sorts of trouble. And very rapidly, it's very clear he's going to lose his funding and teaching position at Washington State University. So everything he's battled for is coming, coming down around him. And he has this belief, you know, he tells a classmate, I can get any woman I want. Which was of course patently untrue. So, so, so, you know, it's a horrific set of circumstances all coming together and it does raise questions around the First Amendment because had this thing gone to trial, I mean, I know that the victims families wanted to know more about the role of Washington State University, where he was teaching and where he. Clearly there were red flags. And you know, again, you come back to this question, when is free speech hate speech? And I think that the victim's families, that's one question they won't get answers to now that he's pled guilty and there's no trial.

[Ryan Gradusky]

Well, the book is called the Idaho 4. It is available wherever books are sold. I've read Vicki's books in the past, so I've not read this one yet. And she is a fabulous, fabulous writer. You wrote this one, James Patterson, right?

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Ryan Gradusky]

I'm sure it's going to be a page from him.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

It was, it was a great collaboration.

[Ryan Gradusky]

Well, she's a brilliant writer. Check it out. If you love True Crime. I'm gonna absolutely check it out. Thank you for being on this podcast.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

Thank you for having me. Rome.

[Ryan Gradusky]

Hey, we'll be right back after this.

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[Ryan Gradusky]

Sponsored by Chumba Casino. No purchase necessary. VGW Group void where prohibited by law 21 + terms and conditions apply. And now for the Ask Me Anything segment of this podcast. If you want to be part of the Ask Me Anything segment, please email me ryanumbersgame podcast.com that's ryanumbersgame podcast.com so this question comes from Barack. He says, hey, Ryan, first of all, I was obsessed with your appearance on Clay and Buck leading up to the election. I love geeking out with you on the numbers and everything. And now I listen to every single one of your podcasts. Thank you so much, Brock. I can't overstate that. Thank you. I heard you mention adhd, and my entire family has adhd. I always tell my daughter that is a superpower to embrace the creativity and excitement we bring to the world with our neurodivergent brains. I've heard you mention a couple of times autistic, thus and such as adhd. And I'm curious if you're on the spectrum yourself and have ADHD and those extra superpowers. Thank you so much. Okay, Brock, I don't mean to laugh. I just. This is the first time I'm reading the email. I am not on the spectrum. Wished I could claim that as an excuse sometimes for saying what I think, but no, I'm not on the spectrum. I've never been tested on the spectrum. I was tested in high school because I was failing basically every subject. But the subjects that I cared about. I had over a 100 point grade point average. And so it was like extremes. And they took me, as, at St. Francis Prep, they took me to this psychiatrist or whatever to test my iq, I guess to see if I was handicapped. I don't know, I'm gonna say. But they brought me testing my iq. And my IQ was. I'm not bragging, but it was high. It was 142. And so they said, there's no way that this person is, you know, not able to pass grades because they're slow or because they're handicapped or whatever. There's something going on here. So they. Because I had extreme levels of excitement and boredom and my numbers Would fly off and on the charts. They diagnosed me with adhd. They gave me medication. I took it one time and I just said, I'm not doing it this anymore. I was very, you know, I was always a pain for everybody in my whole entire life. But, but that was, that was how that happened. And I do have. So I've been diagnosed with adhd. I have never had it treated. As far as medication goes, I write lists every moment of every day. I write lists constantly to keep myself on track. I will often take on 10 projects at the same time because I have to take a break from one and go to the other, which probably takes a lot more time than it should to get ordinary things done. I have relatives who also have ADHD and they do things like they could work and sit in one place for nine hours and then they can't do the laundry because they can't operate. Can't operate in certain things. They can operate in other things. It's, it is actually, I know it's a running joke and everyone has adhd. There are times it is a really big struggle. And I will say since technology is a bigger and bigger part in our life, it is a bigger and bigger struggle. It is not easy to deal with sometimes. It actually is. Definitely, is definitely hard. But I, you know, there have been people in history who have had it way harder than I have been, who have overcome extremely difficult odds. So I don't count it as a disability or as anything else. I just think that it's one part of me that makes me function and I've learned to kind of operate within it. I don't know, I guess that's not like the most medically knowledgeable answer. But this is how I have managed to operate. I write lists for everything, all the time in my sleep, morning, noon and night. And I know if I want to do something like read, I have to dedicate time away from all technological things in the morning because I can't really focus in the evening. And I've also take power naps. I take 20 minute naps like around 4 o' clock or 3 o'. Clock. I will take a 20 minute power, like literally just 20 minutes. I'm totally fine. It's like completely re energized. So that's how I learned to operate it. I don't take medication and I am, I eat healthy, but I don't have like, I don't know if I have red dye number two in my system or anything like that. I just don't. I don't have a lot of sugar and I go to the gym pretty regularly. Despite how having four chins you would never know that about me any I know that this is the ADHD working right now. I'm just going to what do I do to make myself healthier. But no, I'm not on the spectrum. Thank you for listening though Brock. I really appreciate it and I appreciate you anyone else who is ADHD and is living with it and takes the time to listen to this podcast. I appreciate you so much and yes your daughter should lean in to her neurodivergent brain and all the special things that come with it. Thank you guys so much for listening. Please like and subscribe in the I Heart Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you get your podcast. See you next time.

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[iHeart Podcast Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.