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Karol Markowicz Show: American Schools, the Virus, and a Story of Bad Decisions with David Zweig
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Carol Markowitz
Hi and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iHeartRadio. A study out of London last week found something called the dating app effect. The New York Post reports this occurs when dating app devotees experience such a severe chemical imbalance that it resembles a chronic stress disorder and addictive behavior. When a user gets a match or engagement, this messes with the brain's reward system pathway, eventually resulting in neurochemical dependence. While this initial dopamine dump might seem like a good thing, the uncertainty of getting matched prompts the user to adopt seeking behavior so they can get their fix, much like a gambling addict playing the slots, per the study. And there's no win here. Unlike when you're playing the slots, there's no amount of likes or connections that you could walk away with and feel like you succeeded. The study also found that dating app usage can paradoxically torpedo one's sex drive as well by messing with testosterone levels, a side effect that affects both sexes. A match can cause male sex hormone levels to spike by 15 to 20% in 20 minutes, while getting ghosted or unmatched can send testosterone production plummeting by 10 to 25%. The latter plunge can in turn cause symptoms ranging from decreased energy to reduced libido. One doesn't have to get rejected to have match induced mood swings. Constantly awaiting feedback puts the user in a state of anticipatory anxiety where they experience elevated levels of the stress hormone cortisol for several hours, which can disrupt the body's hormone and thyroid production. I think a lot of this stuff is so obvious. If you think about it. We're feeling fake emotions right when we're on the Internet and as you're scrolling potential matches on these apps, these fake emotions are kicking in. You're like feeling like people like you that you have options, but then your body kind of gets that nothing is actually happening, that you might feel something real but no actual connection is occurring. I talk a lot on here about getting off the phones, but getting off the dating apps has to be a priority. I'm sure there's a way to use the apps in a healthy way, but I'm also sure that that very rarely actually happens. The reaction your body and your brain have to being on the apps, I think those reactions are actually holding potential daters back. Last summer I challenged my single listeners to try having an analog summer and try to meet someone in person. I know several listeners wrote in to say they tried it but didn't make a love connection. I would say it takes time and if you're single, don't want to be, Try getting off the apps and make dating something that you really only do in the real world and take your time with it. Maybe you won't meet your person right away. Maybe it will be harder to meet people. I understand that having a catalog of people to scroll through on your phone is the easier option here, but I think that you will feel better in and of yourself and I think that will lead to better options dating wise. Try it. Thanks for listening. Coming up, my interview with David Zweig. But first, Israel is still under Attack. Missile fire has resumed from Israel's enemies terrorists who seek utter death and destruction Here in America, we can't imagine what it's like to live in constant fear like this, but for the people of Israel, it's all very real every single day. Please join me and show the people of Israel you'll help protect them in this time of attack and uncertainty. And one of the best ways to do this is by giving to the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. Your gift today helps provide security essentials like bomb shelters, flak jackets and bulletproof vests, armored security vehicles, ambulances, and so much more. There is no better time to give than right now during the Passover holiday when we celebrate Israel's historic deliverance and birth as a nation. Give a special Passover gift today and help protect the people of Israel. Call 888-488 IFCJ. That's 888-488-4325 or go online at supportifcj.org One word supportifcj.org Ryan Reynolds here from.
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Carol Markowitz
Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iHeartRadio. My guest today is David Zweig. David is an investigative journalist and author. His new book, An Abundance of Caution is out now. Buy it. Hi, David. How are you?
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Unknown Speaker 2
I'm great. How are you doing, Kel?
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Carol Markowitz
So nice to have you on. I am a huge fan. You did such amazing work during the pandemic and I thought you were undervalued, really. I thought you should have been far more famous. And I hope this book is a giant bestseller because you are terrific. What made you write this book five years later?
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Unknown Speaker 2
Well, the process has been going on a long time, of course, so it's only coming out five years later. I would say what prompted me to start on reporting on the pandemic and then ultimately what led to working on the book was my own experience. I watched my kids at home and I described it in the book as withering away or, excuse me, wilting, almost like a plant without sunlight. And something just seemed off about this. It didn't make sense. From early on, we knew the data that kids were not at high risk. They also were not transmitting the virus more than anyone else. Closing schools just didn't seem like the right area for society to be focusing its interventions in order to try to slow the spread of this virus. It seemed like the one area that was perhaps the least sensible to focus on became the area of the most intense focus. And that sort of set me on a path to trying to understand exactly what was happening.
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Carol Markowitz
What do you want people to remember most about that time?
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Unknown Speaker 2
I think I want people to, and I would sort of split it into different groups. But I think what's really important is that our society, as everyone knows, is stratified in a lot of different ways. And the thing that I talk about a lot in the book is how the people who made the policies that impacted everyday Americans, and in particular what I focus on, though it's not exclusively to them children, is that the people who made these policies in many instances were leading very different types of lives than millions and millions of Americans. I mean, at a base level, they were adults. And an adult is able to do zoom for work, just like you and I are talking remotely right now in a way that children cannot. The assumption, you know, children are not small adults. And then. But pulling the lens back beyond that sort of, you know, primary point is the fact that the people who work in the NIH and in public health and sort of broader professionals in the medical field, these people generally are quite well off. They generally have a comfortable home to live in and they are able to do their work in a manner that doesn't put them. It doesn't require them to be in person, a lot of them. And so it's quite telling how those people. And there's a philosopher of medicine named Eric Winsberg who I interviewed for the book, and he said it's quite telling how well those people did during the pandemic relative to so many others. And I think that's the main thing that I want people to be aware of or to remember about that time. That while if you're some corporate attorney or some other white collar worker and you're like, yeah, kind of sucked having my kids home from school, but it wasn't that big of a deal, that's for you and for your family. But you're not thinking about the millions and millions of children who did not have that same circumstance. And by the way, including children who came from well off backgrounds, but maybe had all sorts of different learning challenges or social challenges, right, where their experience was different. And that's what was lost in so much of the sort of media coverage of what was happening during the pandemic. And I think lost on the experts.
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Carol Markowitz
Themselves to say that one of the things that impressed me about that time. So I would say that for our family, it was an amazing time. We loved having our kids home. It was a cozy, beautiful time and everything was really nice and I could see why people leaned into it. But I knew that my kids aren't the only kids in the world and that the things that we were able to provide for them isn't what other families might be able to provide. I grew up pretty poor in Brooklyn and I knew what people in my old neighborhood were going through. But I did see people, you know, even on X and in media who didn't even have kids standing up for people who had kids. And I thought that that was kind of one of the few positives that I saw. I could think of a bunch off the top of my head. I mean, the Instagram, I mean the Twitter account, Red Steez. Steve Miller was passionate about reopening schools and he doesn't have kids. So it was doable. People just. Some people just chose not to.
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Unknown Speaker 2
That's right. And kind of the broader point that I spend a lot of the book looking at the science behind this. In part, the book is a social critique and trying to understand how society as a whole and the political class make decisions. But a lot of the book, I really go deep layer upon layer upon layer into the strata of the earth, basically trying to understand how we think about evidence in a very sort of like epistemological kind of way. What does it mean for something to be true or not true? And these kind of very abstract questions were a big driver for me because I think it's fascinating when we really stop to think, well, what is evidence? We kept hearing about, and this is rightly so, a mocked expression now, but you have to follow the science. But what is the science? And science also doesn't tell you what to do. Science may give you information, but that's very different from values. And this kind of brings us back to your first question. Again, we. Let's even set aside that the science was incredibly poor on a lot of this, the evidence. But even if we were to grant that it's accurate, that still doesn't tell politicians about what to do. Andrew Cuomo, the former governor of New York, repeatedly kept saying, follow the data. You have to follow the evidence, follow the science. But that means nothing. It was a nonsensical statement that does not tell you what policies to put in place. The policies are based on what you value. And again, if you're a poor kid in the Bronx and your family's value may be for you to be in school because you are a football player and this is your one chance to possibly get into college. Well, they canceled the football season. Now you're out of luck. And this happened to countless kids. Now, the argument, which is a strawman that you'll hear and that we've had heard for years, is, well, it's better than being dead. But what I show in the book, and I don't think people have really shown this before, is how schools had absolutely nothing to do with the overall case rates. And there is a wealth of data. And this is really important, Carol, this point, this is not a Monday morning quarterbacking that I'm doing. This is not an after the fact, I try very hard throughout the book, almost without exception. Everything I talk about is evidence that was available at the time. It's basically kind of a tick tock chronology. As you're going through that first year. And I show that the evidence was there at the moment, but our health officials and the broader medical establishment ignored or dismissed this evidence that was available.
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Carol Markowitz
Right. One of my favorite moments of the follow the science, follow the data was when schools had opened in New York City. They opened late late September of 2020, and then in November, Bill de Blasio closed them again because the COVID rate, the COVID percentage for the city had reached a certain percentage. I forgot what I think it might have been 3%. But basically what that meant was that three out of every hundred people who took the COVID tests at facilities were testing positive. So if you had a day where two were testing positive or four, it just. It made no sense. But then the best part to me was Cuomo got on and he said, first of all, that Bill de Blasio cannot close schools. Only he could close schools and he could open schools, and he's the only one in charge. But also he had different data. He didn't have the same numbers as Bill de Blasio did, which was like, wait, how's that even possible? How do you guys have different numbers? Stuff like that, I think went overlooked. Even though that to me was a very kind of pivotal point where people's eyes were open. But data even isn't always the same.
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Unknown Speaker 2
Yeah. I love that you touch on this point. And I talk about this a lot in the book where I, where I look at that. Yes. As you noted, different facts and figures are going to come to different people, including even different politicians and health officials are going to have different information at any given moment. And it doesn't mean that it's wrong to have some sort of benchmark, you know, like we need some sort of parameters to operate within. So I don't necessarily fault officials for saying, hey, this is the line that we're going to go toward. However, they needed to be honest that this was made up.
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Carol Markowitz
That line made no sense. And that line was fictional line.
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Unknown Speaker 2
Right. This was made. And again, I don't think it's wrong necessarily to have some sort of target. Otherwise, it's. It's hard to corral society. Society in certain direction. But you need to be honest. And in fact. And they were the opposite of honest. They said this was the science. This is what. And it's interesting, I show how different areas, different regions within our country and different countries, everyone had wildly different benchmarks. They were all over the place because everyone had one different data oftentimes and two different ways of interpreting it about what they felt was, quote Unquote Safe? Is it 3%? Is it 5%? Is it 12%? Of, you know, various rates of prevalence within the community? There's no correct answer to this.
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Carol Markowitz
That's right.
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Unknown Speaker 2
And yet over and over, it was presented to the public that there's sort of like very bright red line about this is what's appropriate in this area. And anyone who disagreed was a complete jerk. You know, oh, what are you, a moron? You're trying to do your own research. But the reality is they had no idea what they were talking about. Yet it was. And this is a large part of the book that I try to talk, that I talk about, is the narrative formation and how the media very much so worked in conjunction with the health authorities and generally with Democratic politicians, that instead of this sort of classic role where media is supposed to be skeptical of claims by those in power, whether it's a politician or. Or whether it's a health official, instead of that, they basically just acted as an amplifier. And I give all sorts of examples where you can see how articles in the New York Times and elsewhere, they kept quoting various people saying things, but they never provided any evidence or any proof behind what they were saying. And this is how the narrative calcified for much of the public was that schools in Europe, when they opened, well, that's because Europe is different. And they made up this long list of contrived reasons, yet there was never any evidence behind these reasons. And if you question them, you're an asshole.
- [24:03]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah. And you want teachers to die, obviously.
- [24:05]
Unknown Speaker 2
Yes. You want people to die. But again, the media failed in its most basic obligation, which is to actually question what people are telling them. And if they don't question it, then to at least do the research themselves as journalists to find out what is the evidence. Yet I give example after example after example of where our most prestigious news outlets in the country just simply acted as a PR arm of many of these officials and their agencies, just simply repeating what they said without asking for or seeking on their own the actual evidence behind these claims. And what I do in the book, it's essentially a case study, is show one by one by one how each of these claims was false.
- [24:53]
Carol Markowitz
We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.
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Carol Markowitz
So, you know, I was a columnist for many years before the pandemic and I had some level of success, but that time really increased my prominence. My career definitely took off during those years. I became somebody who was writing about it often and people enjoyed that and that kind of thing.
- [28:27]
Unknown Speaker 2
You were great.
- [28:28]
Carol Markowitz
Thank you, thank you. But you were more in the mainstream media. Did your career suffer? Did you take hits for your coverage?
- [28:38]
Unknown Speaker 2
No, I don't think my career suffered and in fact I think I did quite well.
- [28:45]
Carol Markowitz
I think you did quite well. But I'm just wondering if you lost any opportunities for being right too early, which is a common thing.
- [28:53]
Unknown Speaker 2
I would say I was astonished at the sort of rejection or dismissal some of the early work I was doing by large outlets with whom I had worked with in the past.
- [29:09]
Carol Markowitz
This is what I meant. It had to have happened to you.
- [29:11]
Unknown Speaker 2
Yeah. Who were. Now look, as a journalist you should just expect most of the things you pitch are going to be rejected. No one owes me anything. With that said, I know enough about what works and what doesn't work. And these are places I had written for in the past and I knew I wasn't pitching an editorial. I wasn't pitching. Oh, this is my opinion on this. I had a compendium of evidence behind anything and that's why ultimately I was able to write for some of these more mainstream outlets. And it's funny, there were a number of other journalists in the sort of contrarian space, if you will, but who were writing for more, either right leaning outlets or just for their substacks or blogs. And they kept asking me, how are you doing this? How are you getting this stuff through?
- [29:58]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, it was impressive. It really was. I mean I remember several of your pieces that I thought like how did he get the Wired piece? Just, you know, that was. Those were. That's right, groundbreaking pieces and they were in, in kind of again mainstream outlets, which was unique.
- [30:19]
Unknown Speaker 2
Yeah. And I thought about this a lot, you know, in part just on my own and because so many other journalists and people have mentioned this to me and asked me about it. And the only answer I can come up with is that I always came with evidence. And while most editors are not, you know, interested in going against the narrat, thank God there are some who actually really care about, well, what's the truth? What's going on here is this, even though this goes against the sort of establishment view, is this a well supported argument? And that's the theme of my book, is that we need evidence behind claims that we make. And I give lots of fun examples throughout history, in particular in medicine. But this happens in a variety of fields. But they give lots of examples about how our intuition, including the intuition of experts about what is true, is often wrong. And this is the foundation of what's known as evidence based medicine, where you have this hierarchy of evidence and you have to actually look at what do the data show, what is the actual evidence out there and how does that compare versus what you think is going to happen? And time and time again throughout history, including right up to today, our intuition is often wrong. And nevertheless, the media and many of the health experts in America kept going with their intuition about something, their assumptions, right? And so for me, I found that frustrating and I found it offensive. And the thing that I always do with my articles and what I try to do in the book is that, and much to my editor's dismay, I mean, I have, there are hundreds of endnotes with citations in the book, hundreds upon hundreds of them, because I tried to not make any statement without providing a source behind it. Now I'm sure I failed in some circumstances. Sure there are some mistakes in there, but anyone can see a massive effort was made at least to provide evidence because there was no way I was going to criticize everyone else for, for not providing evidence behind their claims for me to do the same thing. And that, that, that's sort of the, the kind of like meta message of the book is really thinking about evidence and about what is true. And it doesn't mean we're always going to be right in the way we put it together, but you have to at least make an effort. And it was just so troubling how the media, it's not that they had a source, but the source was wrong. That happened plenty of times too. And again, that happens to me, that happens to everyone. Sometimes you just misinterpret a study or you, you cite the wrong thing. That's one thing I'm not, I try not to really go after people for that. What's problematic was not even making an effort. It's this Sort of experts say, I think, was it years ago Trump or someone used to always say, people are.
- [33:13]
Carol Markowitz
Saying that was a Trumpism.
- [33:16]
Unknown Speaker 2
People are saying, what an ironic twist. That exact same thing that Trump was vilified for. People are saying, you know, he's just kind of. That's exactly what the most prestigious media did all the time during the pandemic, experts say. And they might even quote an expert. But there was no evidence behind what. I don't really care what this person's opinion is on something that's actually within evidence based medicine. Physicians opinions is considered generally the lowest form of evidence possible. I don't want your opinion. Show me the evidence. And then we can talk about things and then make decisions as a society based on our values.
- [33:56]
Carol Markowitz
Right. And that also was the fact that a lot of the experts were changing their minds in real time and not correcting anything. One of my favorite moments was June 2020. And again, I have this all, like, I'm sure you do too. And I know a lot of people who were in this Covid, you know, fight with us. They, they could recall these times and figures and statements so easily. But June 2020, sorry, actually, I might have gotten that one wrong. It might have been a little later. But Anthony Fauci said, as we've been saying all along, outdoor masking is not necessary. It was June 21 because it was after. It was after the vaccines. So June 2021, he says, as we've been saying all along, outdoor mask masking is unnecessary. And I was like, as we've been saying all along, like, when were you saying this? This is the first I hear. But my kids are masking in between bites while eating lunch on the ground outside at their schools in New York. I mean, if you've been saying this, that message has not penetrated. So they were changing their minds and their opinions and not following the science at all.
- [35:03]
Unknown Speaker 2
Actually be clear, it's not only fine, but appropriate to change your opinion as evidence changes.
- [35:10]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, but be honest about it.
- [35:12]
Unknown Speaker 2
Right, Exactly.
- [35:14]
Carol Markowitz
All along you weren't saying that.
- [35:16]
Unknown Speaker 2
Yeah, the defense that was given over and over was, you know, we're building the plane as we fly it and other metaphors such as that. But again, that was in effect a lie because there was just always exculpatory. No matter what you did, there was a get out of jail free card that you could use. Oh, we've never experienced this before. We never knew what was going on. But again, the thing I show is that the evidence was there from the beginning. And I Show, as time goes on, the evidence that was available and including about masking and outdoor masking. There was never any evidence that this was going to be successful, but that's not how it was presented to the public. One of the things that I'm most proud of is I had written a piece about the summer camp guidelines from the cdc. And, you know, I saw them, and I saw that it included outdoor masking. And I was like, immediately, because I.
- [36:14]
Carol Markowitz
Was very how do you do it?
- [36:16]
Unknown Speaker 2
I was very familiar with the data, and immediately I was like, this makes no sense. And I had a number of prominent people, including the editor in chief of JAMA Pediatrics, who said. Who were like, yes, I will talk with you for the article on the record. And they called it, this is draconian. This makes no sense. Immediately, Rochelle Walensky was questioned about this, and very shortly thereafter, the CDC rescinded the outdoor mask guidance for summer camp. So that was a moment that I was proud of. But those types of things were few and far between to actually affect policy in that matter. And the notion of certainty, I think, is another really important thread within the book that I talk about a lot. It's the way that health officials, and then sort of, by an extension of that, politicians, and then by an extension of that, the media and the sort of what we might call elite society. Overall, the degree of confidence and the degree of arrogance and righteousness within which these opinions were expressed was incredibly damaging. And we can see, you know, the result of that was an enormous lost in trust in our public health institutions. Now, part of that is, you know, I think people can make a reasonable argument to some extent that Trump and some others had sort of poisoned the well, and this was reactive to that. But we are responsible for our own actions. Trump didn't make anybody lie. Trump didn't make Fauci or others have a degree of confidence they should not have had when they projected these various pronouncements to the public about what they should and shouldn't do. And it's so important to, I hope, a lesson that people within media and then more broadly within sort of health establishment understand is that they need a degree of humility. And that, I know it goes against someone's instinct, but to be persuasive, it's actually better to be honest and show nuance and show what you don't know. I mean, that's the best rule. As a writer, just going back, you asked me about how did I get these pieces and some of these sort of legacy media outlets And I think, in part, I try to never overstate things, and I try to be honest and express nuance and say, look, here's. Here's the evidence of what it shows. Here's. Here's what we know and what we don't know. And ultimately, I think people find that most persuasive. You actually can convince someone of something more when you don't overstate things. And in fact, the public health quote, unquote, experts did the exact opposite of that time and again. They overstated the degree of evidence. They overstated their confidence. And conversely, anyone who disagreed was maligned as a fool, as someone who is dangerous. And the divergence between the United States and Europe in particular, regarding schools is so extraordinary. And the idea that someone was this Republican crank for wanting to model our school's policy on good old progressive Western Europe was absurd. But that's what was claimed over and over again. And what people believed and what I tried to show in the book was how. And I talk about a whole variety of countries within Europe and also outside of Europe and other places, there was never any sort of ideological through line between various pandemic policies in different locations. So what we were experiencing in the United States was very much its own kind of isolated experience. But yet people just assumed and extrapolated that this was normal and that it made sense that. Well, of course, the Republicans, you know, want things to open up for the economy. No, there were plenty of countries with a conservative government that wanted everything shut down. That was the opposite. And there were plenty of progressive countries that none of this made any sense.
- [40:28]
Carol Markowitz
No.
- [40:28]
Unknown Speaker 2
And the important part is that the public, by and large, was kept misinformed and uninformed about what was going on. And I give these sort of case studies within the media about how things were framed, about what was happening outside the United States. And there was always some sort of very soft but nevertheless definitive excuse for why such and such was happening and why it couldn't happen here. All this was made up, Carol.
- [40:57]
Carol Markowitz
It was insane. What a crazy, crazy time that we lived through. So one of the questions I ask all of my guests is, what do you worry about? I want to bring it back to your book, Abundance of Caution. What do you worry about that you covered in the book that you could see resurfacing again in our society?
- [41:16]
Unknown Speaker 2
Well, I worry about, I guess just from my own background in journalism, I worry about the media still not, quote, learning its lessons. And while I'm thrilled that there's a vibrant sort of, if we want to Call it alternative media landscape, that terrific substacks and podcasts all, that's great. The legacy media still holds an enormous amount of sway and power within our country, in particular with decision makers within, within Washington D.C. and elsewhere. And you can see it on a whole variety of issues. But when you become an expert on one particular issue, it then makes you wonder about issues that you're not an expert on.
- [41:57]
Carol Markowitz
Right.
- [41:57]
Unknown Speaker 2
When you see, oh my God, the way this is framed is completely wrong. And I give a little bit of kind of a behind the curtain look at what happened with some legacy media publications about how these sort of, the framing of articles was done very purposefully to exclude or to manipulate information that they didn't want in the piece that didn't fit the narrative. And you can see this happening again now. And as long as that keeps happening, I think we're going to be in trouble. I think we're destined for yet another problem, you know, in the next crisis, whether it's a medical crisis or something else. Until the people who communicate to the public, who act as that filter. Because look, most people have regular jobs. They don't have time to be. I don't expect regular people. They're going to work each day doing whatever it is they do. They don't have time to start reading studies. They're relying on other people to present this information to them. And it needs to be presented in a manner that is far more objective than in the manner. And it doesn't mean that there are mistakes or errors in an article. I think that's often kind of the way it's described that, oh well, this is fact checked. And well, everything could be true. And at the same time the piece can still be incredibly misleading.
- [43:21]
Carol Markowitz
Right? Yeah, we saw a lot of that. I mean, even pieces that were technically true and a lot of them were technically not true. A lot of them did have. There's that also there was a lot of errors. A lot of errors. So what advice would you give your 16 year old self knowing kind of what you know now?
- [43:39]
Unknown Speaker 2
I mean, outside of, you know, this narrow discussion, I would say it's the same advice I try to give myself now I wish I had given to myself back then. Which is to be more courageous.
- [43:55]
Carol Markowitz
They're already pretty courageous.
- [43:58]
Unknown Speaker 2
Well, thank you for saying so. But it still feels like it's not enough to try to remove any semblance of concern about failure or about what people will think about you and to really just have the courage to go after what you feel is the right thing. To go after that's really hard to do.
- [44:22]
Carol Markowitz
I like that. Okay, I've loved this conversation. Your book is fantastic. Abundance of Caution. Everyone should go buy it. End here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
- [44:37]
Unknown Speaker 2
Well, there are so many things, so many directions to go with this, but the area that I think I have some knowledge on is what we've been talking about. And I would say when you are reading an article or watching something on TV or YouTube, whatever, when you are presented with information, always ask yourself, is this an argument from authority? That means is this just being told to you by someone who has a credential or are they actually providing evidence for what they are saying? And if you can follow that, you're going to change how you view the world and you will start to see, including from media that you like and that you favor, you will start to see how so much of what we are told is simply arguments from authority rather than the actual true information that you need to be told. That degree of awareness and skepticism will make you a more informed person in life.
- [45:34]
Carol Markowitz
He is David Zweig. Check out his work everywhere. Buy Abundance of Caution. Thank you so much for coming on, David.
- [45:41]
Unknown Speaker 2
Thanks Carl. This is great.
- [45:42]
Carol Markowitz
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Markowitz Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast podcasts.
- [45:47]
Unknown Speaker 2
Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
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Unknown Speaker 1
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Unknown Speaker 2
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Carol Markowitz
Whoa.
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Unknown Speaker 2
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Carol Markowitz
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Unknown Speaker 1
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Unknown Speaker 2
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Unknown Speaker 1
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Carol Markowitz
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Unknown Speaker 2
All right, here we are.
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Carol Markowitz
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Unknown Speaker 2
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Unknown Speaker 1
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Unknown Speaker 2
Another. We definitely need more space to more practical homes.
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Carol Markowitz
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Unknown Speaker 1
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Carol Markowitz
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Unknown Speaker 1
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