Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show | Guest: Christopher Scalia on Expanding the Conservative Literary Canon

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: Karol Markowicz Show: Expanding the Conservative Literary Canon with Christopher Scalia
• Release Date: May 21, 2025

Introduction to Christopher Scalia and His Work

In this engaging episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, host Carol Markowitz welcomes Christopher Scalia, a Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. Scalia is the author of the thought-provoking book, "13 Novels Conservatives Will Love But Probably Haven't Read." The conversation revolves around expanding the conservative literary canon and the pivotal role that fiction plays in shaping conservative thought.

The Genesis of the Book: Broadening Conservative Reading Horizons

[03:02] Carol Markowitz:
“So I'm extremely excited about your new book, which I have right here. And I have to say that I immediately thought, oh, I will have read these 13 books. I am really smart and I'm a conservative, so I am sure I've read these books.”

[03:20] Christopher Scalia:
“People like you, I think conservatives in general who like fiction tend to have a pretty limited range. I don't mean that as an insult, but that's just...”

[03:46] Scalia elaborates that while conservatives appreciate classics like George Orwell's 1984 and Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, there's a tendency to stick to a narrow selection of novels. His book aims to introduce conservatives to a broader spectrum of literature that aligns with conservative principles yet remains largely unexplored within the community.

Highlighting Key Novels: Expanding the Literary Canon

[05:28] Carol Markowitz:
“Exactly. That's what happened to me when I saw the list.”

[05:33] Scalia:
“The idea was not to make people think, oh gosh, I really haven't read anything because that's not a great feeling. Instead, it's the vibe, as the kids say I'm going for is, oh, good, there's a lot more great books I can read than the ones I already knew about.”

Scalia emphasizes the importance of recognizing a wider array of novels that embody conservative values through their themes of nobility, honor, tradition, and the human condition. He encourages conservatives to explore these works to gain deeper insights and appreciation for diverse storytelling.

Deep Dive into Walter Scott’s Waverley

[05:52] Markowitz:
“What's the most important one on the list?”

[05:57] Scalia:
“That is a tough question. An unfair question even.”

After some deliberation, Scalia singles out Walter Scott’s Waverley as the most important novel on his list. Published in 1814, Scalia describes Scott as the “preeminent novelist of the Romantic period” whose works encapsulate themes of nobility, honor, and tradition—core conservative ideals. He references Russell Kirk, a notable conservative intellectual, who believed Scott effectively translated Edmund Burke’s ideas from Reflections on the Revolution in France into accessible storytelling.

[06:00] Scalia:
“Walter Scott just had an enormous influence on all of European and American culture and thought for a very long time. And he's just kind of fallen by the wayside for all sorts of reasons.”

Scalia advocates for a renewed appreciation of Scott’s work, highlighting its relevance and the enduring wisdom it offers.

Addressing Criticisms: The Role of Fiction in Conservative Thought

[07:52] Markowitz:
“I saw someone yelling at you on X about this book, like this is something that's unnecessary right now. And it's the last thing conservatives need is to be reading fiction. How dare you?”

[08:08] Scalia:
“I think people like that believe that the only real way of knowing anything is to read history or political science or biographies or self-improvement books. And I think that's a pretty commonly held belief on the left and I think probably especially on the right…”

Scalia addresses common criticisms that prioritize nonfiction over fiction for gaining knowledge. He argues that fiction offers a “different way of knowing”, providing wisdom and understanding through beautiful language and storytelling that nonfiction often lacks. He emphasizes that storytelling is a fundamental method through which myths and beliefs are formed, making fiction an essential component of a well-rounded conservative intellectual tradition.

The Power of Storytelling in Conservatism

[08:08] Scalia:
“... the value of fiction and of literature in general, I would certainly include poetry in this. Is that it, it offers a different way of knowing. It offers wisdom in a way that you can't get through history and nonfiction, most importantly, or most obviously, it does it with beautiful language in a way that most nonfiction writers don't really aspire to.”

[09:55] Markowitz:
“Do you have a favorite book all around?”

[10:13] Scalia:
“No, my favorite book that I write about, my favorite novel I write about in there is probably My Ántonia by Willa Cather. And it is just a. It is a beautiful novel about, I guess you could say, the immigrant experience and more broadly, the American dream...”

Scalia underscores the pivotal role of novels like Willa Cather's My Ántonia in portraying the American dream and the immigrant experience, themes that resonate deeply with conservative values. He illustrates how such narratives not only entertain but also educate readers about the foundational principles that shape society.

Challenges in Modern Reading Habits

[12:09] Markowitz:
“... kids get to college and the professors are shocked at how they've never read a book for pleasure or they don't know how to read a full book. They never had to do that ever in high school anymore. How do we work around that?”

[12:23] Scalia:
“I need to know too, if you figure it out. Parenting Advice I think for parents, it's important to remember that children appreciate reading at different ages. I read quite a bit. But I didn't really love reading until probably when I got to college...”

The conversation delves into the declining emphasis on reading for pleasure among younger generations. Scalia shares personal anecdotes and offers practical advice for parents aiming to instill a love for reading in their children. He highlights the importance of patience, providing books as options, and engaging in shared reading activities to foster interest.

The Importance of Literary Beauty and Empathy

[13:17] Markowitz:
“To read or offer a ton of nonfiction, trashy books as well.”

[13:22] Scalia:
“That's exactly right too. But I think, I just think immersing yourself in the language as it is used by masters and encountering beauty, those are important things.”

Scalia emphasizes that beyond absorbing information, fiction immerses readers in beautiful language and cultivates empathy. Studies show that reading novels enhances the ability to understand and sympathize with others, a crucial skill in a democratic society where engaging with diverse perspectives is essential.

Personal Reflections and Recommendations

[24:52] Scalia:
“... what 16-year-old Chris is doing as a 16-year-old is a foundation for 60-year-old Chris and that it's a good time to plant the Seeds for later in life...”

In a more personal segment, Scalia reflects on advice he would give his younger self, emphasizing the importance of discipline, self-control, and focus, and reminding his younger self that crises often seem bigger in the moment than they are in the long run. This segment underscores the broader themes of personal growth and the lasting impact of early habits.

Final Thoughts: Valuing Fiction as a Source of Wisdom

[29:11] Scalia:
“Don't feel guilty about reading great fiction. As you said, it makes you feel good and I suspect that that's one reason people distrust it.”

In wrapping up the conversation, Scalia reiterates the significance of integrating fiction into conservative reading habits. He argues that classic fiction offers wisdom and insights into the human condition that are invaluable for personal and intellectual development. His closing remarks serve as a call to action for conservatives to embrace a more diverse literary repertoire to enhance their understanding and appreciation of complex societal issues.

Conclusion

Christopher Scalia's insightful discussion on The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show highlights the often overlooked role of fiction in conservative thought. By advocating for a broader literary canon, Scalia encourages conservatives to explore novels that not only align with their values but also enrich their intellectual and emotional landscapes. His emphasis on storytelling, empathy, and the enduring wisdom found in classic literature offers a compelling case for integrating fiction into the conservative educational and cultural framework.

Notable Quotes:

• Carol Markowitz [03:02]: “I have to say that I immediately thought, oh, I will have read these 13 books. I am really smart and I'm a conservative, so I am sure I've read these books.”

• Christopher Scalia [05:57]: “Walter Scott just had an enormous influence on all of European and American culture and thought for a very long time. And he's just kind of fallen by the wayside for all sorts of reasons.”

• Scalia [08:08]: “It offers wisdom in a way that you can't get through history and nonfiction...”

• Markowitz [24:11]: “How do we work around that? How do we bring back reading as something people do?”

• Scalia [29:11]: “Don't feel guilty about reading great fiction. As you said, it makes you feel good and I suspect that that's one reason people distrust it.”

This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners and those interested in the intersection of literature and conservative ideology.