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Karol Markowicz Show: Expanding the Conservative Literary Canon with Christopher Scalia
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Podcast Announcer
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.
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Christopher Scalia
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Christopher Scalia
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- [02:10]
Christopher Scalia
Are.
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- [02:42]
Carol Markowitz
Hi and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iheartradio. My guest today is Christopher Scalia. Christopher is a Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, where he writes about arts and culture and higher education, and he's the author of the new book, 13 novels conservatives will love but probably haven't read. Hi, Christopher. So nice to have you on.
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Christopher Scalia
Hi, Carol. Thank you for having me. It's great to talk to you.
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Carol Markowitz
So I'm extremely excited about your new book, which I have right here. And I have to say that I immediately thought, oh, I will have read these 13 books. I am really smart and I'm a conservative, so I am sure I've read these books.
- [03:21]
Christopher Scalia
And.
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Carol Markowitz
And as my daughter pointed out to me, when I told her I hadn't read any of the books, none of them, she said, well, that's why he wrote the book, actually. She's like, if you'd read them, then he wouldn't need the book. Which is a solid point, I thought. She's 15 and she knows everything, so good for her. What made you write this book? Is it that people like me actually haven't read them?
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Christopher Scalia
Well, people like you, I think conservatives in general who like fiction tend to have a pretty limited range. I don't mean that as an insult, but that's just.
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Carol Markowitz
I feel insulted.
- [03:56]
Christopher Scalia
But okay, let me put it this way. People, conservatives who love fiction talk about great fiction. They talk about the same handful of novels, and most of those books are great. I think of, like, 1984, Brave New World. Everybody loves those novels.
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Carol Markowitz
Yep.
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Christopher Scalia
Or if you want to get Catholic about it, Brideshead Revisited, something by Ayn Rand.
- [04:18]
Carol Markowitz
All good choices.
- [04:20]
Christopher Scalia
Yeah. Tom Wolfe, of course. And these are great novels for the most part, but I think we limit ourselves. And by the way, those are just the English language, original ones. I didn't even mention the Russians. But we tend to limit ourselves when we talk about that handful of novels, because as great as they are, they're really just a fraction, just the tip of the iceberg of great literature that touches on conservative ideas and principles. So this book was an attempt to exp. You could say, expand the conservative canon a little bit. These are all great novels. I think you don't have to be conservative to recognize these are great novels. But conservatives will recognize the value of the principles and ideals expressed in these works, maybe more than they would in other works. So while you didn't recognize any of the novels I put in there, hopefully you would have recognized at least many of the authors and said, oh, well, yeah, I know Nathaniel Hawthorne, but I've never heard of that novel. Or I love Evelyn Waugh, but I've never read Scoop.
- [05:29]
Carol Markowitz
Exactly. That's what happened to me when I saw the list.
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Christopher Scalia
Yeah. And it's. The idea was not to make people think, oh gosh, I really haven't read anything because that's not a great feeling. Instead, it's the vibe, as the kids say I'm going for is, oh, good, there's a lot more great books I can read than the ones I already knew about.
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Carol Markowitz
What's the most important one on the list?
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Christopher Scalia
That is a tough question. An unfair question even.
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Carol Markowitz
I mean, you made me feel bad for not reading. This is what you get.
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Christopher Scalia
Yeah, I think the most important one is probably not going to be everybody's favorite, but it is my favorite, and that's Waverly by Walter Scott, published in 1814. Walter Scott was the preeminent novelist of the Romantic period. One of the most, really the most popular novelists in Europe and in the United States too for a very long time. But he's just fallen out of fashion in large part because of what his novels were about. His novels were about nobility and honor and the importance of tradition. The conservative intellectual Russell Kirk said that what Scott did was take Edmund Burke's ideas from the Reflections on the Revolution in France and make them more accessible by telling stories that illustrate those ideas. Walter Scott just had an enormous influence on all of European and American culture and thought for a long time. And he's just kind of fallen by the wayside for all sorts of reasons. I think he's the person, I think it's most important for conservatives to return to because of, I think, the greatness of his novels and the significance of his ideas.
- [07:26]
Carol Markowitz
Walter Scott writing it down. Gonna order all his books right after this.
- [07:30]
Christopher Scalia
Well, don't bother with all of them. There are a lot and they are of varying quality. He wrote, I think, 28 novels over the course of 16 years or so.
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Carol Markowitz
My book's on ebay secondhand, so yeah, at like $3 each.
- [07:45]
Christopher Scalia
Yeah. But Waverly I have here and Then Ivan Ho is probably his best known novel that is certainly also worth reading.
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Carol Markowitz
I saw someone yelling at you on X about this book, about this is something that's unnecessary right now. And it's the last thing conservatives need is to be reading fiction. How dare you?
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Christopher Scalia
Yes.
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Carol Markowitz
What do you say to that?
- [08:08]
Christopher Scalia
Well, I think people like that believe that the only real way of knowing anything is to read history or political science or biographies or self improvement books. And I think that's a pretty commonly held belief on the left and I think probably especially on the right and it's unfortunate because the value of fiction and of literature in general, I would certainly include poetry in this. Is that it, it offers A different way of knowing. It offers wisdom in a way that you can't get through history and nonfiction, most importantly, or most obviously, it does it with beautiful language in a way that most nonfiction writers don't really aspire to. And the conservatives especially should value the novel because it's not really an old form. It's only a few centuries old. But some of the greatest creative minds in Western history have expressed their ideas and their craft through the novel. So I think. I think those are important reasons conservatives should. Should read fiction. And certainly I'm not saying you should read only fiction, but we need to do a better job of recognizing the importance of storytelling. Rod Dreher, a few years ago in the American Conservative, wrote that, you know, and this is a common complaint, conservatives are just bad at storytelling or we don't understand the significance of storytelling. But the fact is that myth and stories are how most people come to believe things and to cherish ideas, argument and reason and data. Those are obviously important things, but those aren't the only way we know things.
- [09:56]
Carol Markowitz
Do you have a favorite book all around?
- [09:58]
Christopher Scalia
You are just very difficult with me.
- [10:00]
Carol Markowitz
I ask hard questions here. That's right. I'm preparing you for your eventual MSNBC with Joe and Mika, so.
- [10:08]
Christopher Scalia
Well, no, my new favorite book is 13 novels conservatives will love but probably haven't read.
- [10:13]
Carol Markowitz
I have it. I have it right here.
- [10:15]
Christopher Scalia
No, my favorite book that I write about, my favorite novel I write about in there is probably My Antonia by Willa Cather. And it is just a. It is a beautiful novel about, I guess you could say, the immigrant experience and more broadly, the American dream. The title character, Antonia, comes from Europe. She and her family come from Europe in the late 19th century and encounter many struggles. She eventually finds her footing, raises a huge and happy family, and the person telling us all about her, the narrator is not an immigrant, but he is orphaned at a young age, moves from Virginia to Nebraska, and grows up with Antonia, is just in love with her and her immigrant peers. But he also is a great emblem of the American dream because he goes on from these kind of unpromising origins to become a very successful businessman, a lawyer for a railway. And he helps really shape the United States as we know it out of his love for the country that has become, I think, my. My favorite novel, certainly, that I wrote about here.
- [11:34]
Carol Markowitz
So you touched on this a little bit. But it is sort of the era of learn as much as you can. You know, when you're at the gym, listen to a podcast and always be kind of processing Information. And there is a sense of like it's wasting time to read nonfiction. I'm sorry, to read fiction. And actually the show has, I've touched on it a lot on this show because it was my New Year's resolution last year to read more fiction. I don't get to do it enough. What's important about reading fiction? Why does anyone really need it?
- [12:10]
Christopher Scalia
First of all, a really funny thing happened to me a couple of weeks ago. I was at one of my kids Saturday sporting events and a friend, a fellow parent, arrived. She had a book. I said, what are you reading? And she said, oh, it's just a novel. And it's almost kind of like this sense that novels can only be guilty pleasures. But it, you know, it was not a trashy novel. It was a pretty serious work of literary fiction. I mean, nothing, nothing obnoxiously pretentious, but it, you know, it wasn't fluff. And, and I've talked. I. In the ensuing conversation, I learned that this woman knows a lot about fiction, a lot about the novel. And it was. We had a great conversation, but I asked her about it later. I said, why did you say only a novel?
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Carol Markowitz
Right?
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Christopher Scalia
And she said, because she assumes that's how most people are going to react. I think she's exactly right. As you're explaining, you were just explaining something inferior about fiction. And that's not a new idea. I mean, it goes back to the very origins of the novel in Britain, because there are a lot of trashy novels. Not every work of fiction is going.
- [13:18]
Carol Markowitz
To offer a ton of nonfiction, trashy books as well.
- [13:22]
Christopher Scalia
That's exactly right too. But I think, as I was suggesting earlier, I just think immersing yourself in the language as it is used by masters and encountering beauty, those are important things. We, I think we understate the significance of beauty in particular. And beauty as can, can be expressed in, in language. It is okay. I mean that that's the point of art, is to be in awe of something beautiful and to experience wonderful that, you know, sensations and experiences like that are certainly worthwhile. And I think, you know what you were describing that the impulse to always learn more, learn more, learn more. I think you, obviously, you learn about human nature in novels that in a way that you can't through other forms of writing you develop, a lot of studies show that you develop sympathetic powers, the ability to understand other people, to sympathize with other people. And that doesn't necessarily necessarily make everybody who reads novels good people, but it, it does help Us understand each other and that, that can be especially important. I think in a democracy, when we need, we have to engage with other people on their level and to sympathize with them, even when we don't agree with them. Have to, we have to have good conversations with them. But it's hard to read novels. It's really hard to read anything now. Yeah, because of all the distractions out there and all of the, you know, you mentioned X earlier or Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, you know, the litany. And reading or doing it, praying, doing anything that takes intense concentration can be difficult. Podcasts, for example, are great things to listen to when you don't really need to concentrate and you want to zone out as you wash the dishes or work out. But when you're reading, that really needs to be your focus. And we're bad at that now.
- [15:21]
Carol Markowitz
It's funny, I totally agree with you. When we're looking at a piece of art, nobody's like, oh, this is a waste of my time. I could be learning something, right?
- [15:29]
Christopher Scalia
Nobody goes to the National Gallery of Art and thinks, oh boy, what a waste.
- [15:33]
Carol Markowitz
Why do we even do this anymore when I could be learning stuff on the podcast? What do you worry about?
- [15:41]
Christopher Scalia
Well, I worry about, I guess, along the lines of what I was just saying that we're becoming something approaching a post literate culture. And that doesn't mean we're becoming illiterate, but we value, we value writing much less. I suspect AI is going to present a new kind of threat. Along these lines, I don't think AI is entirely bad, but it makes it easier to not write for yourself and not really think for yourself. And I worry about that. As I was suggesting earlier, if we don't read great things from the past, we are cutting ourselves off from just an abundance of wisdom and ignorance. That is important to know, too. And the less we read, the poorer we will be at reading and the harder it will be for us to be good at it again. And it doesn't necessarily keep me up at night. But as somebody who really loves reading, I don't want to be like the old man shaking his fist at the clouds. But a lot of the technologies we are gaining are great, but we need to be aware of what we may be losing if we forget about these older technologies and these older media and these older forms of entertainment, instruction and pleasure.
- [16:57]
Carol Markowitz
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- [21:52]
Carol Markowitz
There'S always these stories now where kids get to college and the professors are shocked at how they've never read a book for pleasure or they don't know how to read a full book. They never had to do that ever in high school anymore. How do we work around that? How do we bring back reading as something people do? Like? I have three kids. Two of them natural readers carry books around with them. The third one super into sports. Not really that as interested in reading. How do you kind of move that kid towards reading?
- [22:22]
Christopher Scalia
I'm sure.
- [22:22]
Carol Markowitz
Tell me. I need to know.
- [22:23]
Christopher Scalia
I need to know too, if you figure it out. Parenting Advice I think for parents, it's important to remember that children appreciate reading at different ages. I read quite A bit. But I didn't really love reading until probably when I got to college. When I was growing up, I read Encyclopedia Brown and John Bellaire's stories and I enjoyed it, but it wasn't necessarily my favorite thing to do. And I see the same thing with my kids. There's so many other things for them to do. They like reading, but it's not their. It's not their default mode. And I think that parents just need to be patient and keep kind of reminding them that that's an option. Give them books, talk about books. One way I really got my daughter into reading was by having her read to me. And her reading got so much better over the course of a few weeks. And my knowledge of Ramona Quimby really is quite impressive for A man approaching 50. I think teachers, I talk to a lot of college professors who say the same thing and I don't blame them for scaling back on the reading.
- [23:31]
Carol Markowitz
I kind of blame them.
- [23:32]
Christopher Scalia
I don't know, I blame them a little because I guess the path of less resistance anyway, but especially for lower level classes, I get it. For upper level classes I have much less patience for it, but I guess it would. A lot of it just begins with or maybe begins in high schools or junior highs and policies we're seeing going around the country about cracking down on cell phones in schools. I think that that would be a big help. But I do think, you know, my hunch is as a conservative, my instinct is that things like this begin with the family and it is really.
- [24:11]
Carol Markowitz
That's not the answer I was looking for.
- [24:12]
Christopher Scalia
Yeah, sorry. No, but again, I'm struggling with the same thing and that's why I'm trying to stick to it and trying not to get too frustra because you never really know what's going to hit with the child when they're reading and what's going to take. And it is also possible that a kid just isn't going to like reading very much. That's unfortunate. I can deal with it. That's unfortunate. But I hope the child is still capable of reading something complex, even if it's not. But they enjoy what he or she wants to do for fun, right?
- [24:47]
Carol Markowitz
What advice would you give your 16 year old self? What does 16 year old Christopher need to know?
- [24:52]
Christopher Scalia
Well, this advice might sound contradictory, but I think I would give two related lessons. One is that what 16 year old Chris is doing as a 16 year old is a foundation for 60 year old Chris and that it's a good time to plant the Seeds for later in life. And that doesn't mean to take everything completely seriously, but to understand the habits I'm developing as a 16 year old will pay dividends down the road. And that things like self control, discipline, focus, things that I do think I did work on as a 16 year old in school and athletics and things like that, they paid off. And if anything, I could have done them a little bit more, but they were worthwhile. And then conversely, to also remember that you're only 16 and you've got decades ahead of you, God willing, and that the things that seem like really big deals are not big deals. I think everybody, everybody who, everybody probably in their twenties realizes this. But the things, things that seem like crises, the things, the huge embarrassments that seem like things people will remember forever really aren't. And you can overcome falling flat on your face and having things that you thought would happen, not happening. You just have to learn how to adjust, pivot, whatever term you want to use, and look forward to the next challenge or, or ambition.
- [26:38]
Carol Markowitz
I love that. I love this conversation. It did make me feel bad that I don't read enough, but I'm going to try to rectify it right away. End here, Carol.
- [26:47]
Christopher Scalia
I don't think you should feel guilty, by the way, because I do.
- [26:50]
Carol Markowitz
I do feel guilty.
- [26:50]
Christopher Scalia
You have a lot on your plate. Don't feel guilty.
- [26:55]
Carol Markowitz
I swear, it actually is a theme on here where I talk a lot about how I don't read enough fiction and how that makes me feel bad. And I read a lot of nonfiction, I read a lot of nonfiction, you know, just for our, you know, work. And. But fiction makes me feel good and it makes me a better person, more interesting person. I love it. That's why I really. I saw this book. I saw that you wrote 13 novels conservatives will love. And I couldn't wait to read it because I absolutely relate to the message that fiction improves so much about our experience in this world. And again, that comparison to art was it for me. You know, no one's mad at themselves for going to the museum. We're mad at ourselves for reading a book on a beach, you know, so.
- [27:41]
Christopher Scalia
Carol, can I ask you a question? Can I turn the table?
- [27:44]
Carol Markowitz
Sure.
- [27:44]
Christopher Scalia
What is your favorite novel?
- [27:46]
Carol Markowitz
Oh, man.
- [27:47]
Christopher Scalia
Or one of them? Just the first one that comes to mind.
- [27:50]
Carol Markowitz
You said 1984 and you said Brave New World, where the Russian third, the kind of what I consider the trio, the Zamyatins, we in Russian, I think is like the undervalued triplet in that. In that Container. So I love that book.
- [28:13]
Christopher Scalia
I need to check that one out.
- [28:14]
Carol Markowitz
Thank you. Definitely. It could have easily made your list, I'll tell you that.
- [28:21]
Christopher Scalia
Stay on the lookout for 13 more novels Conservatives will love.
- [28:24]
Carol Markowitz
I love it.
- [28:25]
Christopher Scalia
Well, if any of your listeners or if you really like dystopian fiction, I include the Children of Men by P.D. james in this one novel from, I think 1992. Just a superb look at what happens when humans stop having children. And yeah, in. In a depopulating world, how that changes what we want from government? How much control will we're willing to cede to the government in exchange for security and comfort when there's no longer really any hope for a future, any ambition beyond our own lives?
- [29:00]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, I feel like we're heading into that direction, unfortunately. We'll try to be optimistic.
- [29:05]
Christopher Scalia
Yeah.
- [29:06]
Carol Markowitz
End us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
- [29:12]
Christopher Scalia
Reid, I mean, you saw this coming, right?
- [29:14]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, I did. I love it. I love it. I think that that is a great, great answer.
- [29:19]
Christopher Scalia
Don't, don't feel guilty about reading great fiction. As you said, it makes you feel good and I suspect that that's one reason people distrust it.
- [29:30]
Carol Markowitz
But great fiction, like I don't want to feel good, I have to feel bad.
- [29:33]
Christopher Scalia
Exactly. No, it's got to be. I need to be eating my broccoli.
- [29:36]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [29:37]
Christopher Scalia
No, great fiction is a source of wisdom. Classic fiction novels that people have been talking about for centuries, that's the case for a reason. That doesn't mean you'll like every classic. That's certainly not the case. But chances are you will find not just beautiful writing, but real truths about the human condition and human nature. And that is a kind of knowledge. It's not a fact necessarily, but it is still a type of knowing and wisdom.
- [30:08]
Carol Markowitz
I love it. Thank you so much. Christopher Scalia. Check out his book 13 novels conservatives will love but probably haven't read. Thank you so much, Chris.
- [30:16]
Christopher Scalia
Thank you, Carol. It's been a pleasure.
- [30:22]
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- [31:57]
Christopher Scalia
This.
- [31:57]
Carol Markowitz
Message comes from Greenlight.
- [31:59]
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Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy?
- [32:02]
Carol Markowitz
Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails in place. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on what your kids are spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk free@greenlight.com iheart from coast.
- [32:28]
Lenovo Representative
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- [32:57]
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