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Karol Markowicz Show: The Evolution of School Choice in America with Jason Bedrick
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- [00:00]
Carol Markowitz
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.
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Risk free@greenlight.com iheart hi, and welcome back.
- [02:45]
To the Carol markowitz show on iheartradio. My guest today is J.C. jason is a research fellow at Heritage, where he focuses on education issues. Hi, Jason. So nice to have you on, Carol.
- [02:57]
Carol Markowitz
It's a pleasure to be on.
- [02:59]
Jason Bedrick
So how did a nice Jewish boy like you get mixed up with education policy at Heritage? Where did you get your start?
- [03:06]
Carol Markowitz
That's a great question. It really, I would say, started in college. I went to a business school because, like a nice Jewish boy, the plan was to take over the family business, which was a small furniture store in New Hampshire. But a few weeks into my freshman year was 9 11, and all of a sudden I became much more interested in public policy than furniture or business. And at first, international policy, but then eventually domestic policy with a real focus on education. I always loved school, loved education, I guess. I did a paper in my junior year on school choice. I could pick any issue I wanted, and that was the issue. Any. Any issue I wanted. But it had to be, like, really specific, couldn't be general. So I was like, we should have a school choice in New Hampshire. And at the time, there was a bill that was going through the New Hampshire state legislature for school choice, and it failed by a vote of 171 to. 172.
- [04:17]
Jason Bedrick
You have that right at the front of your brain to recall, huh?
- [04:20]
Carol Markowitz
Yes. Well, you know, it was a turning point because I was complaining to my professor about it after class, and he said, what are you going to do about it? And I'm thinking, like, you know, I'm 20 years old. I'm going to go back to my dorm room and eat pizza and drink beer and play video games. Like, what do you mean, what am I going to. What am I going to do?
- [04:39]
Jason Bedrick
Education policy.
- [04:41]
Carol Markowitz
Right, Exactly. But that question sort of echoed in my head, what are you to do about it? So eventually, you know, I ran for office. I failed the first time around, but succeeded the second time around. And I ran.
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Jason Bedrick
I did not know this. What did you run for?
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Carol Markowitz
I ran for state legislature because I. In New Hampshire, it failed by one vote. And if I had been there instead of somebody else, you know, it could have passed. When I served, I was 23. My school voucher bill went down in flames. But a few years later, when I was in grad school, I had been in the minority party, but when I was in grad school, the Republicans took back over. And I got a call from a friend of mine who said, you know, we're going to do school choice this time around. So I took my master's thesis, I ripped it up, and I started over and I did a master's thesis on a school choice bill. And we went and we got it passed and it's still, still in operation today. That was in 2012.
- [05:43]
Jason Bedrick
It's amazing. What made you care about this? Like I, you know, you, you joke about going back to your dorm room and eating pizza and drinking beer. I mean, I was a conservative in college. I had beliefs, I had ideals. But to care so specifically, especially about schooling when I didn't have kids myself yet, I, that would have been a reach for me. How did you come to care about it?
- [06:05]
Carol Markowitz
I saw it really as the foundation of the American dream. So the American dream is predicated on equality of opportunity. And I, you know, I chose my parents. Well, and so I, I chose parents who could afford to live in a school district that had high quality public schools.
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Jason Bedrick
Good choice.
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Carol Markowitz
Exactly. And we didn't have. We were, I was, I was in a very small town in New Hampshire, so, so small that at the time there was no high school. And they contracted with a neighboring school district and then that fell apart and they contracted with a different one. The public school wasn't so good. So I ended up going to a Catholic high school. And my parents could afford to send me to a Catholic high school and pay that tuition. But I realized that there are a lot of families out there who can't afford a home in a, you know, an expensive home in a school district that has a high quality public school and can't afford to pay private school tuition. And that if equality of opportunity meant anything, it meant that everyone should have access to a high quality education. And that's where I fell in love with Milton Friedman's idea that the money should follow the child. That even if there is a case that the government should subsidize education, it doesn't follow that the government should be providing the education because it tends to be low quality, especially for lower income families. And so once I became passionately engaged with that and saw that I could make a difference. One vote. That's all it took, was one vote in the legislature. That sort of launched my public policy crusade for school choice.
- [07:52]
Jason Bedrick
Still impressive that you cared about it at such a young age. I did not care about much at that age. Did your parents have a problem with you pursuing this instead of going into the family business business or instead of doing one of the, like the three professions that Jews are allowed to do you know, doctor, lawyer, it could be accountant, it could be. In my day, it was computer programmer. You know that the third profession sometimes changes, but it's never education policy at Heritage.
- [08:21]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, and they were always very supportive of everything that I wanted to do. So. And that wasn't the biggest change. I mean, I grew up a very secular Jew. And so at the same time in college, as I'm becoming more politically aware, I was becoming more religiously engaged and became observant. So, I mean, that was like a much bigger deal for the family than, you know, a change in focus on, you know, from business to politics.
- [08:51]
Jason Bedrick
Yeah, so they were, they were like stunned by one thing, so they didn't have time to like, focus on the other.
- [08:57]
Carol Markowitz
Right.
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Jason Bedrick
Is your family business still around?
- [09:01]
Carol Markowitz
No, my father of blessed memory sold it probably close to 20 years ago.
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Jason Bedrick
And so what would you be doing if it wasn't this? Would you have gone into furniture?
- [09:11]
Carol Markowitz
Probably. You know, that was, you know, I kind of grew up in the family business. I spent, you know, summer breaks and winter breaks working as a janitor, working, you know, in the accounting department, working in the marketing department, you know, sort of learning all the aspects of the business. So, yeah, I think, you know, but for 911 and my budding interest in public policy, I would be running a furniture store in New Hampshire right now.
- [09:40]
Jason Bedrick
What do you still want to do in education, public policy? I mean, school choice is becoming. Not everywhere, obviously. There's still a lot of battles to fight, but it's largely growing in popularity. I think compared to like a decade or two ago, it's far more prevalent in different states. What's the next frontier?
- [10:01]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, I mean, so when, when I was in the legislature, it was still a pretty fringe idea. And I mean, it was defeated overwhelmingly and it was a small little, you know, low income program. Right now, New Hampshire is close to passing universal education savings accounts, where every single child in the state is going to have access to an account that you can use for private school tuition, tutoring, textbooks, homeschool curricula, online learning, etc. They've already passed the law. It's just about half the kids in the state are eligible and soon everyone will be eligible. So it's, it's amazing, you know, from, let's see, when I was in the legislature, 2007, 2008 till today, you know, not even 20 years, and we've made all that progress. So it's, it's as. And that, that's sort of reflects the state of play nationwide. Pre Covid we didn't have any publicly funded universal school choice programs, meaning that every child is eligible. And now we have about 15, and we're probably going to end the year with 18. And if we get Texas, which is looking like we will, more than half the kids in the country will be eligible for school choice. So still a lot of work to do. And being eligible and having, you know, a scholarship is not the same thing. So there's a lot more work to do. But the momentum is on our side and we're, you know, we're sort of hitting that tipping point. But I've been working on school choice for two decades now, but I'm, I'm working more on other issues. So this is all sort of a preface to your question. What's next? Beyond school choice? We have been. I think school choice is a necessary condition for solving our education woes, but it's not a sufficient condition. You know, I, I've seen the left essentially take over public education and politicize it and dumb it down. And conservatives saying, well, you should have choices is important, but it's not enough.
- [12:07]
Jason Bedrick
Right.
- [12:08]
Carol Markowitz
And a lot of school choice organizations, including ones that I worked for, like, their main goal is you should have a choice, and we're agnostic about what you choose. And I get that. And I think the government should be agnostic. But we as conservatives should not be agnostic about what parents are choosing.
- [12:24]
Jason Bedrick
That's right.
- [12:25]
Carol Markowitz
We have to be putting forward a positive vision of American education, one that is grounded in truth, one that is content rich, where it's not just social studies. They're engaging in real history and they have. We are careful about cultural transmission, transmitting the best that has been thought and said in the west, and especially, you know, sort of the American branch that goes through, you know, England, we have not been doing that in the public school system, and we absolutely have to if we want to preserve our way of life.
- [13:09]
Jason Bedrick
So how do you do that? Not that school choice was an easy thing to get through, but this seems harder, this seems like tougher, because you're going to have to. I mean, teachers unions are always going to be an obstacle for your battles, but this one is like they. To allow curriculum that they don't approve of is going to be so much tougher than to get state legislatures to allow parents to have the money, follow the child.
- [13:38]
Carol Markowitz
Well, I think the first thing is Paschal choice. Second step, there's the classical education movement that has been taking off, and so many families that I've spoken to that send their Kids to classical schools, but they themselves didn't have a classical education, which is most of us in this country.
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Jason Bedrick
Right.
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Carol Markowitz
Say something along the lines of, oh, this is what I was always looking for. I just didn't know it existed. So I think the demand for classical ed, which is only about 1% of kids right now are going to classical schools. The demand is much, much higher. And the conservative movement should be doing everything they can to foster the growth of classical ed. Pull your kids out of public schools, put them, whether it's a private school, a charter school, find a classical school, put your kid in those schools. If you're homeschooling, there's a lot of classical homeschool materials out there. And I think what we will see is a shift as demand, as awareness of classical ed grows and demand grows, you're going to see a shift. I think even public schools will start to adopt some of the things. You're not going to have public schools go like full blown classical for the most part. But I think they will, you know. Okay. If we see that a bunch of families are leaving and why are they leaving? Well, because they want that classical school. Oh, well, you know, we have a very strong history curriculum over here, but we're actually reintroducing some foreign language. We're gonna have Latin or Greek or we're going to focus more on primary sources.
- [15:13]
Jason Bedrick
Math won't be racist anymore, right?
- [15:16]
Carol Markowitz
Exactly. Hopefully you'll see these sorts of things. And we've already seen this sort of thing in Arizona. I mean, I see public schools that advertise, oh, we do the core knowledge curriculum here. Right. Well, why do they do that? Well, because they lost kids to the charter school down the street that's doing core Knowledge. So now they're advertising. Advertising. We do Core Knowledge. So I think that's, that's the next step. We.
- [15:36]
Jason Bedrick
That's amazing.
- [15:37]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, it is.
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Jason Bedrick
Yeah. I haven't seen that in public schools at all. Like where they're competing for the kids. Like that's.
- [15:43]
Carol Markowitz
Well, you only have, you'll only have them competing where there is a competitive market. Right. So you need to have a robust, universal, fully funded private school choice program. Ideally in esa, you need to have robust charter schools. And what we have in Arizona too, is inter district choice. And when you add up those three categories of school choice, plus tax credit, scholarships, more than half the kids in Maricopa county, which is the largest county in the country, actually more than half the kids are going to a school besides their assigned district school.
- [16:23]
Jason Bedrick
Wow.
- [16:23]
Carol Markowitz
So it's a very competitive environment.
- [16:25]
Jason Bedrick
That's amazing. I hope that spreads everywhere.
- [16:28]
Carol Markowitz
Amen. From your lips to God's ears.
- [16:31]
Jason Bedrick
That's right. What do you worry about?
- [16:34]
Carol Markowitz
A chassed is not supposed to worry, supposed to have complete faith. But one thing that does greatly concern me is that we are forgetting where we came from as a culture. Will Herberg, great sociologist, used to be, I think he was a religion editor at National Review, talked about cut flower culture. And you know, if you take a flower and you cut it and you put it in a vase, it'll still be beautiful for a while, it'll still have a nice fragrance for a while, but eventually it's going to wilt and it's going to die because you have divorced it from its source of nurture. And so it cannot live long, it cannot thrive. And we really do have a Judeo Christian source that we are cutting ourselves off from with this. Especially with the secularization of public schools. Most people don't realize all of the original school. The first of all, there were no public schools at the founding era, right? All the schools essentially were religious. Even with the common schools movement, you had de facto non denominational Protestant public schools. And that's why the Catholics were pushing so much for funding for their schools. They said, we're paying taxes for the Protestant schools. We need our own. Once we secularized the public schools, we started to forget our roots. And our commitments to things like religious liberty, for example, are not. It's not because we have persuaded people in the abstract to believe in these things. It's because we have an American story, right? We were pilgrims who were persecuted for their religious beliefs and they were so devout that they decided to cross an ocean in order to have religious liberty in the new land, right? And those Puritans saw themselves as, in biblical terms, right? They were the new Israelites. The British king was the pharaoh. The Atlantic Ocean was the Red Sea, and they were crossing it to come to the new promised land, right? It's that story of who we are that is what preserves our freedoms. And so if we divorce ourselves from that, if we're no longer drawing from the wellsprings and just look at what our founding fathers, how religious they were. And most people don't recognize it was such a religious environment that even irreligious or, you know, closet atheists of founding fathers like Thomas Paine, I don't know if you count them as a founding father. The most, the second most published book in the founding era after the Bible was Thomas Paine's common sense. He explicitly makes the case against monarchy, starting with 1st Samuel, chapter 8 and Samuel the prophet yelling at the Israelites, how dare you ask for a king. Right. Why did he do that if he was not himself religious? He recognized that the biblical story was the most persuasive case you could make for freedom and against monarchy. The speeches of Abraham Lincoln, you can't understand if you don't understand the religious source. Martin Luther King, Jr. Right. His argument for civil rights and against Jim Crow was a, you know, don't Forget he's the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. It was a biblical based case and we are losing that. And, and that's what worries me as a culture.
- [20:27]
Jason Bedrick
It's so interesting. I, I feel like you're going to have a tough time bridging that across. Randy Weingarten But I believe in you. I think that, I think if anyone could do it, that is a very persuasive case. And I really think that you're in perfect shape to deliver that message.
- [20:46]
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- [25:30]
Jason Bedrick
What would you tell your 16 year old self if you had to give yourself advice of how things would go?
- [25:36]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, I don't, I don't know how generalizable this is to your audience, but I was thinking, well, the last question.
- [25:42]
Jason Bedrick
As you know, is advice, generalized. But this is for you specifically, but.
- [25:46]
Carol Markowitz
For myself, I would have gone back and told myself to take the opportunity to spend a year in Israel. You know, when you're young and you don't have a wife and kids and a mortgage and a job and all that and you have this time, you have a lot of freedom and you really need to have that foundation. To have spent a year in Israel learning and developing greater fluency with language and connecting with my roots, I think would have been a tremendous experience. I, I did a month, a month and a half, I did, as you know, almost a summer, but only recognize after what I was missing by, by not taking a gap year and, and doing that.
- [26:33]
Jason Bedrick
Yeah, I think in general kids should be encouraged to take gap gears. A lot of them get to college kind of immature and not really knowing what they're going to do. It doesn't have to be Israel, obviously for a lot of people, but I love the idea of that year where you go and you learn something else, something maybe you never thought about before, and experience new things. All of that is definitely up my alley. Hope my kids do it. So I've loved this conversation. I think you're amazing and you're doing such incredible work in education. I think a lot of your ideas are amazing and I hope they come to fruition, you know, from your lips. Etc. Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
- [27:21]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, so I was, I was discussing this question with a close friend of mine, Jeremy Light, who's a fan of yours, listens to the podcast and I was like, I don't know what sort of advice to give. And then I was thinking about, well, what's the greatest commandment? And there's this very interesting discussion in the midrash among the rabbis about, you know, what is, you know, for more than 2,000 years ago, what's the greatest commandment? And Some said, well, it's, you know, Shema Yisrael, right? Hero, Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one. So, like, you know, the great statement of monotheism, which is followed by, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might. Another rabbi says, no, no, it's Vyavta Reha Kamecha. You shall love your fellow as yourself, right? The great statement of, you know, universal love and brother. And then there's another rabbi who says, no, it's you shall offer sheep in the morning, you shall offer sheep in the afternoon, right? And then somebody stands out and says that he's correct. That's the one. So what is this? Like, it seems, like, bizarre, right? You know, we are a great monotheistic faith. We believe in loving your fellow. These are, like, really important commandments. How is it that offering a sacrifice in the morning and the evening is the great commandment? And as the late, great Rabbi Jonathan Sacks explains it, the message here really is that you need every single day to wake up and make that sacrifice in the morning. And then in the evening, before you go to sleep, you got to make that sacrifice again. If you just have those grand principles, they're abstract, they're ephemeral, they're sort of floating out there. Oh, yeah, I love God. I believe in one God. Oh, yeah, I love my fellow. Really show it. Wake up every single day and do what you have to do, right? And, you know, so that applies to so many aspects of our life, obviously, our relationship with God, if we really care, if we really. Oh, yes, I love God. Well, show it. Every morning, wake up and pray before you go to bed. Pray, right? Every single day. You have to put in the work. And there was a great Hasidic rebbe that said, you know, it's not just that you sacrifice for what you love, you love what you sacrifice for, right? Your emotions, follow your actions. You are what you do. And so in your family life, right, you want to improve your family life, you want to improve your relationship with your wife, Focus on what you're doing for her. Focus on. For what you're doing for your kids. Make those sacrifices and do them consistently every single day. Make sure you're doing it over and over again. You really want to learn more, okay? Put your phone down, put it aside. Pick up a book every single day, morning and evening. Spend some time with that book. And, you know, we understand this. Like when it comes to going to the gym, right? You want to get fit, right? Put down the sandwich, go to the gym, put in the time. But that's, you know, this is the, I think the message of the Mishnah. You have to make these sacrifices, sacrifices and you have to make them consistently.
- [30:37]
Jason Bedrick
I love that. Thank you so much Jason. He is Jason Bedrick. Check him out at Heritage. Follow him on X. He's a really wonderful follow. Thanks so much for coming on.
- [30:46]
Carol Markowitz
Thanks so much for having me.
- [30:47]
Jason Bedrick
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Markowitz Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:55]
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Carol Markowitz
All right, here we are.
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Carol Markowitz
Another.
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Carol Markowitz
Why is this taking so long?
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Jason Bedrick
This thing is ancient.
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Carol Markowitz
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Jason Bedrick
This thing moves.
- [32:49]
Samsung Representative
Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search@lenovo.com Unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.
- [33:07]
Jason Bedrick
This message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely, and invest with your guardrails in place. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on what your kids are spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk free@greenlight.com iheart you're listening.
- [33:38]
Carol Markowitz
To an iheart podcast.