Karol Markowicz Show: The Joys and Challenges of Motherhood with Liz Wolfe

Summary

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show - Episode Summary Episode: Karol Markowicz Show: The Joys and Challenges of Motherhood with Liz Wolfe
Release Date: May 9, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, hosted by iHeartPodcasts, Clay and Buck delve into a substantial conversation featuring Liz Wolfe, an associate editor at Reason and host of the show Just Asking Questions. The discussion, moderated by Carol Markowitz, explores the multifaceted nature of motherhood, societal expectations, and personal growth. Skipping over advertisements and introductory segments, the episode offers a deep dive into the joys and challenges of becoming a mother, especially within the context of modern societal pressures and personal ideologies.

Becoming a Mother

[02:37] Carol Markowitz:
"Your son is just the cutest. How's that going?"

[03:07] Liz Wolfe:
"It's the best thing ever. I am very, very eager to try to exceed your record of three kids. I am in awe of moms who have a whole brood, and I hope to join their ranks someday."

Liz shares her excitement about motherhood, expressing a desire to expand her family despite acknowledging the complexities involved, especially living in a bustling city like New York.

Parenting Dynamics with Multiple Children

[03:34] Carol Markowitz:
"I think three is the magic number... one or two is still kind of tough. You need to be doing a lot of the entertaining and the parenting and the taking care of them when you could just kind of hand it off to the older children."

Carol discusses the dynamics of raising multiple children, highlighting how having three kids can create a more self-sustaining environment where children entertain and support each other, reducing the parenting burden.

[04:08] Liz Wolfe:
"As a libertarian, I believe in economies of scale... more division of labor, more specialization in the household."

Liz brings a unique perspective by integrating her libertarian beliefs into parenting, emphasizing the benefits of having multiple children to optimize household management through division of labor.

Societal Expectations and Libertarian Views on Motherhood

[05:56] Carol Markowitz:
"You are such an inspiration... like young people everywhere."

Carol compliments Liz on her approach to parenting and balancing personal beliefs, fostering a discussion on how societal expectations often paint motherhood in binary terms.

[06:00] Liz Wolfe:
"I feel like people live in this world of binary, like very false choices... it's not work or quit, it's not having your finances perfectly in order or being destitute."

Liz critiques the societal narrative that forces women into rigid roles, advocating for a more nuanced understanding of motherhood that accommodates various lifestyles and personal choices.

Cultural Narratives on Women and Motherhood

[07:42] Liz Wolfe:
"It feels like this just like it's such a pointless conversation that people have surrounding trad wifery and motherhood."

Liz challenges the polarized views on traditional roles versus modern feminism, arguing that many women successfully integrate professional and personal lives without conforming to extreme stereotypes.

[08:27] Carol Markowitz:
"And your whole economies of scale thing too... it's supposed to go. I when I got married, our plan was I was going to be a stay at home mom... it's about brainwashing, it's about intellectual conformity..."

Carol echoes Liz's sentiments, sharing her own experiences and reinforcing the idea that rigid roles are neither practical nor desirable for most families.

Reproductive Technology and Future Concerns

[21:23] Liz Wolfe:
"I think the main thing right now is the future that is brought into existence by reproductive tech... gene editing of embryos and the ways in which this sort of warps what family life means."

Liz expresses concerns about the rapid advancements in reproductive technology, fearing that societal pressures might push women to delay childbearing unnaturally, leading to complex familial and generational challenges.

[23:07] Carol Markowitz:
"I think these people who are like, oh, Mick Jagger had a baby at 80... you're not Mick Jagger."

Carol underscores the impracticality of high-profile individuals having children at advanced ages, highlighting the real-world implications of such decisions on family dynamics and personal well-being.

Advice on Education and Personal Path

[25:52] Liz Wolfe:
"I would probably counsel myself to only go for like a year or so. Get a sense of ensuring that you're like ensuring that you know what it's all about and really make sure."

Reflecting on her educational journey, Liz advises her younger self to take a more autodidactic approach, emphasizing the importance of self-directed learning over traditional college pathways that may not align with personal growth and intellectual freedom.

[28:29] Liz Wolfe:
"You could choose trade school, you could choose a four-year college... you need to be thinking, what is it that I am uniquely gifted at and what are the ways that I can make money with that."

Liz encourages young adults to explore various educational and career paths, advocating for a tailored approach that leverages individual strengths and interests rather than adhering to societal expectations.

Final Tips and Conclusion

[29:56] Liz Wolfe:
"Play like a child... People get off of your damn screens and just embrace the tactile, beautiful, risky world out there. I just guarantee it will do good things to your soul."

Concluding the conversation, Liz offers a heartfelt recommendation to reconnect with one's playful and adventurous side, promoting a balanced life that values both personal fulfillment and meaningful connections beyond digital interactions.

[30:26] Carol Markowitz:
"I love it. She is Liz Wolf. Sign up for Reason Roundup. Check out Just Asking Questions. Thank you so much for coming on, Liz."

Carol wraps up the episode by highlighting Liz's contributions and encouraging listeners to engage with her work, reinforcing the episode's themes of thoughtful parenting, personal growth, and societal critique.

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Notable Quotes

• Liz Wolfe [03:07]:
  "I feel like you're playing on easy mode to some degree when you just have one child, but I also live in New York City, and I consider that to be basically playing on hard mode compared to most other people."

• Carol Markowitz [04:08]:
  "Three is the magic number... you could just kind of hand it off to the older children."

• Liz Wolfe [06:09]:
  "There’s something really frustrating about only having one kid... we've got it under control totally."

• Liz Wolfe [08:27]:
  "Our parenting culture suffers because people are unimaginative with their sense of what having a child actually entails."

• Liz Wolfe [21:23]:
  "Gene editing of embryos and the ways in which this sort of warps what family life means... at 55 is a little late to be having a toddler."

• Liz Wolfe [25:52]:
  "I wish I'd fully embrace the autodidact life and move to like Mexico and just committed to Spanish immersion legitimately."

• Liz Wolfe [29:56]:
  "Play like a child... embrace the tactile, beautiful, risky world out there."

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Conclusion

This episode provides a thoughtful exploration of motherhood from Liz Wolfe's perspective, intertwining personal anecdotes with broader societal critiques. It challenges conventional narratives around parenting, education, and women's roles, advocating for a more flexible and individualized approach. Listeners gain insight into balancing personal beliefs with modern challenges, emphasizing the importance of adaptability, continuous learning, and maintaining one's zest for life amidst the responsibilities of parenthood.

Transcript

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[Carol Markowitz]

Hi and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iheartradio. My guest today is Liz Wolf. Liz is an associate editor at Reason. She writes the daily Reason Roundup you can get it every morning in your inbox. And she hosts the show Just Asking Questions. So nice to have you on, Liz.

[Liz Wolf]

Carol, it's so good to see you again.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's really, really good to see you, too. You have become a mom since the last time I saw you in person, which is quite a big change. And your son is just the cutest. How's that going?

[Liz Wolf]

It's the best thing ever. I am very, very eager to try to exceed your record of three kids. I am in awe of moms who have a whole brood, and I hope to join their ranks someday. I feel like you're playing on easy mode to some degree when you just have one child, but I also live in New York City, and I consider that to be basically playing on hard mode compared to most other people. So I feel like it's a little bit of a mixed bag over here.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, I'll tell you, I think having one wasn't super hard. Having two almost killed me. But having three was the easiest of all of it because they're just entertaining each other. And by the time you have the third, theoretically, the first and the second can, you know, sort of take care of the third a little bit. Three is the magic number, I would say. I mean, three plus anything past three, but one or two is still kind of tough. You need to be doing a lot of the entertaining and the parenting and the taking care of them when you could just kind of hand it off to the older children. The more kids you have.

[Liz Wolf]

Well, as a libertarian, I believe in economies of scale. And so there's something really frustrating about only having one kid. I'm like, I need to scale this enterprise. It's going so well. We can definitely add more. We need more division of labor, more specialization in the household. We've got it under control totally.

[Carol Markowitz]

And the thing is, if you space them correctly, you can. I think three years, that's what we have, is. Is good because you can hand down the crib and the high chair and, you know, the. The car seats and stuff, like, at the exact right time to not, you know, not need new ones. Do it too soon, though, and you're going to need two high chairs and two cribs and.

[Liz Wolf]

Yeah, you can stack them on top of each other, though, right?

[Carol Markowitz]

You can.

[Liz Wolf]

I mean, Carol, I feel like you've long been an inspiration for me, especially because raising three kids in New York City, which, you know, you were doing up until the pandemic, attempted to make everybody's life hell and you made the rational Decision to escape. But it's the thing that I struggle with is like, if I want to have three or four or even like five kids, like the, the Hannah's children vision, like what is the way to get them all on and off the subway frequently. I kind of don't understand from like a people wrangling standpoint how the mechanics of that works when you're dealing with like rush hour trains.

[Carol Markowitz]

I think you end up putting the older kids in charge of like, okay, you're getting these two, I'm getting these two. Let's do it. Also, I love the idea of you having five kids because you say I'm an inspiration. You are such an inspiration. You are quite young and you have your act sewed together. You know what you believe you are in a great marriage, you know, and you have a child already. And I just, I think you're wonderful and like so advanced and such an inspiration to I think young people everywhere.

[Liz Wolf]

Oh, that's so true.

[Carol Markowitz]

I want you to go on the road and tell people how to do it.

[Liz Wolf]

Well, the problem is like dispositionally, I don't want to tell people how to.

[Carol Markowitz]

Live their lives, but at this time, libertarian. Yeah, but what we did anyway, you know, it's possible.

[Liz Wolf]

I mean, I think the thing that's really frustrating to me is like, it feels like people live in this world of binary, like very false choices and binaries where it's like either you have to be full on feminist girl bossing it up and wait until you're 45 to have kids and make sure you freeze your eggs, or you have to be like barefooted, pregnant, eternally in the kitchen. And to me, this just like it's such a pointless conversation that people have surrounding trad wifery and motherhood. Because like, this isn't actually how people operate in the wild, right? Like, I have a job, I also have a child who I spend a lot of time with. There are lots of people who have these sort of hybrid arrangements and there are also lots of people who maybe they have one vision for the timeline that these things will happen at. But then, I mean, your story is, I think, definitely a point like a story in, in this favor where it's like you don't know on what you don't know timeline things are going to pan out for you. And how frustrating and frankly disrespectful for people to be told that like, oh, well, you're doing it wrong if in fact there's a bunch of circumstances where like it's actually quite prudent. To wait until you're in a good partnership, ideally a good, you know, coven, gentle marriage, before you begin to bring a bunch of children into the mix. And like, for lots of people, it seems like the coupling upside of things is happening later and later, and they're not feeling stable and secure in that. I'm a little bit less sympathetic to the oh, the finances aren't in order type of argument because I think people kind of don't realize how inexpensive having a child can be and how you don't necessarily have to have, you know, every child in their own room or every child going to a four year Ivy League institution. Like, you have a lot of options beyond that. And people are unimaginative with their sense of what having a child actually entails. And I think that our parenting culture suffers because of that, because we believe that it has to be so much more complex with, you know, five summer camps that all cost, you know, whatever, 3,000, $4,000 a piece for every kid. And it's like, well, no wonder it seems unfathomably expensive. But that's negotiable. That's something that's optional. And I wish more young women didn't feel shame about the timeline or trajectory that they're on, but did do a little bit more rethinking. Like, it's not necessarily as binary as work or quit. It's not necessarily as binary as have your finances perfectly in order or be destitute. There's a lot of range that a lot of people are working with.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, absolutely. And your whole economies of scale thing too. A lot of the things that people think is going to cost, you know, again, you don't buy five cribs. You buy the one crib and you pass it down and you. I heard one time somebody say something like, oh, you know, I grew up poor. We grew up with hand me downs. And I was like, I don't know how rich I need to be that my kids are not gonna be wearing each other's hand me downs like you are. They're all wearing each other's hand me downs forever. Like, it's definitely like, oh, you need a new pair of cleats. Let's go see if your brother has an old pair. And that's how I think it's supposed to go. You're so right, though. And I think about this a lot where people are just. Maybe it's because of the online culture and they think that you could put everything neatly into a box of, you know, girl, boss or Trad wife. But most people are some combination. And just because you think your life is going to go a certain way doesn't mean it will. I when I got married, our plan was I was going to be a stay at home mom. And then I opened an unrelated business and then I got into journalism. And you know, you just don't know where life is going to take you. So you can't have what you're doing in this moment be your identity. And I think that's the thing that people don't understand. They're scrambling around for like, what am I going to be? Well, maybe just don't think of it like that. Maybe think about what you're going to going to do instead. And it's a tougher ask because what am I going to be? Sort of gives you the roadmap, but nobody is just that one thing, you know.

[Liz Wolf]

The Drake album, More Life. This is, I feel like my mantra and probably yours too. Like both of us have a little bit of this, like, this antsiness, this eagerness to like stick our hands in a million different charts, even if we're overextended. Like I've always had this sort of like Iggy Pop. Pop puts it as like less for life, right? In Drake world it's more life, but there's a little bit of the sense of just like, you know, it's it. I think there's this narrative out there that's like, once you have a child, your life is over, your life must end. Say goodbye to going out into the fancy restaurants and to parties with your friends and you know, forget about throwing a house party ever again. You really have to step into this, you know, different state of being. And in some ways it's true. Right, because you can't do cocaine and stay out till 6am if you have a newborn that you need to nurse. Right. Obviously.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, Wait till I become a toddler at least, you know.

[Liz Wolf]

Yeah, then you and the toddler can be on the exact same frequency. But there's something so frustrating about like having maintaining a lust for life, maintaining a sense of more a sense that, you know, I am infinitely capable and that my life isn't over and I'm not waiting for some other stage to begin. But these things can coexist at once. You child can be beautifully fit in to your sort of normal life. You will have to change some components and your values and priorities might change. That's all like an appropriate and very healthy thing. That's also just something that naturally happens as we grow up and as we age. But it's always been really frustrating to me that people have this like, stupid, kind of sad narrative that sells women short. Yeah, that's this one of like, oh, well, you know, now you're just relegated to the status of mother. It's like, I am mother and I am also a whole bunch of other things at once. And I think my child is well served by me doing that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Absolutely. And that lust for life, I think the older you get, it's so easy to lose it. It's so easy to stop listening to music, for example. I think that that's something that a lot of women hit a certain age and they don't listen to new music anymore or even old music. They just kind of don't do it. I went through a phase of that myself, for sure. But, you know, loving everything and wanting to be part of everything. I don't think you need to hit an age where you're no longer in the mix and you're just relegated to this one thing. I, I love your point of view on this and I'm not kidding. I think you should be touring the country, speaking to young women. You can give them the libertarian like, you don't have to follow what I'm saying, but maybe do it. Maybe this is the better way. Maybe, you know, maybe you vote for this. Well, okay.

[Liz Wolf]

I'm so close to being an America expert, which is what I've termed somebody who's visited all 50 states. So I do kind of want to come up with an excuse to go on a cross country trip. I love mostly because I need to knock off the Dakotas and I don't know how to do this. And it seems selfish to drag my entire family on a North Dakota, South Dakota vacation that they definitely don't want to go on. Just so I can check this box.

[Carol Markowitz]

I don't know if that's selfish, but.

[Liz Wolf]

I legitimately, I feel, I feel so close. I'm a completionist, a geographic completionist. And there's something really exciting. Even though obviously, you know, I don't fully know every nook and cranny of America. You know, I was just in Maine, but I only saw a tiny little portion of Maine for just a few days at a time. But there is still something really beautiful about feeling like I have a taste of every single region, every single state. You know, I've spent a little bit of time chatting with people or eating their food. And I don't know, I think a lot of New Yorkers have this like, obnoxious And I say this about myself because I, I live in Queens. They have this obnoxious view of like, New York is the center of the universe. Nothing could ever compare.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. It's almost like a small town.

[Liz Wolf]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

Like, thinking, I know, I know. I, I, I, I was such, I was so like that. Like, why would I go anywhere else?

[Liz Wolf]

I'm in New York on my worst days. I think I am that. But I do also think, like, you know, being deliberate about cultivating an appreciation for like, what is there to love in Oklahoma? Like, what's good for Alabama? Turns out there's actually a lot. And I feel like I, this is really dorky, but I feel as though I have this like patriotism that swells up within me and I can experience it and indulge it through travel. And I think that that's a good thing because libertarians are sometimes so dispositionally oriented toward Burn it all down.

[Carol Markowitz]

I'm going to say you're sounding a little conservative.

[Liz Wolf]

I mean, yeah, I think I do have legitimate, like, appreciation for this thing that we call the American Project and for, you know, what the framers and the founders intended. One of the ways that I realize that or sort of live that out is by, you know, hopping on a plane and going and eating a bunch of clams and oysters in Maine, you know, just over a two day trip or whatever. Or my husband and I have road trip between New York and Texas like 12 times and we take a different route every time in part so that we can see like what's going on in this new place. But this also results in a lot of like, oh crap, we're in the middle of Ohio and we have nothing to do. We're so bored.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? Yeah, it's, it's tough. Ohio's tough. My sister in law's from Ohio. I shouldn't, I shouldn't, I shouldn't randomly insult Ohio like that.

[Liz Wolf]

Well, I think my favorite place that I've stumbled across so far is like the Gulf coast of Alabama. Like Fairhope, Alabama is, has an intense like Mardi Gras culture, which I really enjoy and appreciate. And then also just like, I don't know, based off of my random walking around, like, seems like a very high proportion of lesbians compared to straight people. Okay.

[Carol Markowitz]

Fairhope, Alabama, who knew?

[Liz Wolf]

Yeah, sort of like cutely outdoorsy, very good community vibes, pretty good food scene. Like, I, I don't know, I was kind of shocked to discover that it would actually, I think, be a place I could see myself living.

[Carol Markowitz]

We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Another possible idea for you because again, we have that thing where we're doing a million things at the same time. Something like a travel, I don't know, site that does kind of underrated places or places you might not have heard of. I could see you being very good at that. Again, it could go hand in hand with your Let me tell the children what they should be doing and let me tell the adults where they should be visiting.

[Liz Wolf]

The problem is, I think the kids these days, like the zoomers, they don't listen to me. I feel like even though I was born in 1996, I think I'm technically a zoomer, depending on how you calculate it. I feel so woefully out of touch. I think in part because I did everything on a sort of like, you know, slightly faster timeline. And so I feel as though like my cohort, like, I feel strongly like disillusioned, slightly ironic millennial, which I'm not saying is a good thing. Like, I wish I were a zoomer. They seem better.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, I don't know. The millennials, I used to be pretty tough on them because I'm a Generation X. They. Yeah, they're the generation right under you. The generation under you is always the worst, right? But I feel like the millennials got, you know, a little bit too much complaining, especially for me. They're far, far better than this new, you know, Gen Z thing. I apologize, Millennials. I really didn't mean it.

[Liz Wolf]

Well, everyone got so mad at them for all the avocado toast and sort of the frivolous spending. But then now it looks a little bit silly because it was like for a while we truly did have such, like a VC cash infusion into a lot of these sort of sharing economy and gig economy businesses. And, you know, we should have just probably spent less time doing sort of dumb think pieces criticizing them for their choices and more time just waiting for these businesses to end up not profitable or end up being really, really bad models. Because, I mean, people got a little bit overhyped and the bubble burst, and we could have just let the cycle run its course, and instead we felt the need to just hector them about their choices.

[Carol Markowitz]

I did hector them again. I'm sorry. Millennials, what do you worry about?

[Liz Wolf]

What do I worry about? I think the main thing right now is the future that is brought into existence by reproductive tech. And I mean, more than just ivf. I mean, IVM and ivg, the sort of new incarnations of that, the more advanced technology that may come to replace ivf. But I also mean, like, gene editing of embryos and the ways in which this sort of warps what family life means and the types of choices that women are expected to make. So not the types of choices that are available to women. But I'm worried a little bit about, like, what happens when companies start incentivizing women to freeze their eggs and to engage in some of these technolog in an effort for them to basically push off their childbearing years until way later. Right to the point where. Okay, well, in. In some sense, it's nice for a woman who's in her 40s or 50s to be able to have children that she might have thought she was unable to have. But in another sense, it's a lot harder to raise those kids into a healthy parenting culture when your parents are dying or you're in the elder care stage of life, where you no longer have a support system. Because frankly, 55 is a little late to be having a toddler.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right.

[Liz Wolf]

If you're a woman. And, And I worry a little bit about.

[Carol Markowitz]

Honestly, my husband always says, you know, having kids is a young man's game. And he's right. It's not easy to chase around a toddler. And I always say, you know, these people who are like, oh, Mick Jagger had a baby at 80, you know, 80. I'm like, you're not Mick Jagger. You don't have a staff like Mick Jagger.

[Liz Wolf]

I also get the sense that Mick Jagger is on the more virile side. Like, I don't get the sense that he has any difficulties with conception.

[Carol Markowitz]

I would.

[Liz Wolf]

Yeah, it's. It's sad to me. That there's been this cultural narrative that we. I think that fourth wave feminism has taught women that you can basically, you know, you know, wait and see. Like, hold on, wait. Like, focus on other things. Have your fun, have your career. Wait, wait, wait. It's always there. And it's like, it really is not. And in fact, you might be setting yourself up for heartaches that you're not really anticipating. Whether that heartache comes in the form of struggles with conception or miscarriage or, you know, the awfulness of being sandwiched between taking care of a toddler and dealing with elder care. I have.

[Carol Markowitz]

Just not being there for your kids as they get older. I'm 47. We have three kids. I wish we had a fourth. I do. But, you know, we never. We stopped at three. That was it. But I would never be like, oh, let's. Let's do this now. Just had to have a baby at 47. I know people do it. God bless them, but my mom, my in laws are so involved in being with my kids. We get to, like, travel and do our work, stuff that we wouldn't get to do without them. And I don't know how I would do it if I had to have a baby right now. And it would be a real difficulty, and I would miss so much of their life.

[Liz Wolf]

Yeah. I think people do a good job of anticipating the benefits, but sometimes a pretty poor job of anticipating the risks and the costs. And it's hard. Right. Because if that is the only option available to people, I don't want to deny them that option. I'm worried, sort of, you know, thinking not on the micro level, but more on the macro level. Like, if parents today already feel beleaguered and like our parenting culture has sort of a deep rot within, especially in the big city urban cores, I don't think that pushing it off and making it even more clinical than before is the thing that will serve as a corrective to this cultural issue. And in fact, I fear it really making it worse. And it takes a lot for a libertarian to say that. I mean, I think this is where my Catholicism is coming in.

[Carol Markowitz]

I think you might be a conservative. I think as you get older, we're.

[Liz Wolf]

Only on this issue. I mean, come on. Completely. You can definitely see my Catholicism, you know, creeping in here, and I will make no apologies for it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Liz Wolf]

But it really is something that keeps me up at night and something where you can never give this advice in a way that makes somebody feel like you're indicting or condemning their Choices. But at the same time, I really, really wish people thought a little bit more deeply about this.

[Carol Markowitz]

I agree. Yeah. We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show. What advice would you give your 16 year old self? Like what would you tell yourself to do differently? Or maybe, maybe not to do differently, maybe to do the same.

[Liz Wolf]

I think my very clear answer, my clear verdict is you will enter college and you will hate it, drop out, cut your losses. I would probably counsel myself to only go for like a year or so. Get a sense of ensuring that you're like ensuring that you know what it's all about and really make sure. Like I think that going and dropping out would probably be better for me than not going at all because I would have a sense of what I'm foregoing and I would also have a sense of, I think, motivation. Like there would be a fire lit beneath me.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Liz Wolf]

To avoid that, that sort of environment. I went to college at William and Mary and I entered in 2014 the fall that the Rolling Stone repo story was out and the begin up a lot of crazy social justice insanity and MeToo related insanity and you know, the era of Title 9 due process violating campus kangaroo courts. And it felt like an environment that was full on in a social justice frenzy. It was an environment where as a writer, you know, I got sort of like soft canceled on campus and was extremely unpopular because of the things that I was writing. And it was also just, I think a pretty unintellectual environment. And you couple that with the fact that college is so obscenely expensive and my parents gave me some money to pay for it, but I was also expected to, you know, commit a fair amount of money to pay for it. So it was not just like a spend whatever you want type scenario, far from it. And I felt, I just remember feeling like this is a bad deal. I care about learning, I love learning. I'm deeply curious. But this feels like an environment that is just, it's about brainwashing, it's about intellectual conformity and you really get punished if you deviate from the herd. And I wish I'd like fully embrace the autodidact life and move to like Mexico and just committed to Spanish immersion legitimately. Like yeah, I speak a little bit of Spanish, but not super well. And I wish I'd really gone all in on that and just been focused on like in my free time almost the, the will hunting approach of like all you need is a library card. That's Go read.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love that. I hope that more kids take a different path. It's very hard, you know, I know with my own kids, like when I'm like, maybe you don't go to college, like, oh, we're going to college. Like, they're just in their own heads. They're, they're, they're in for the experience. They're not trying to deviate from it. But I hope if my kids enter and don't feel like they belong there or feel like they want to do something else, I hope that they take that path.

[Liz Wolf]

Well, it's something I think about so much. Like, I wish, I hope that I have the balls to stick to my guns here. That's a really mixed metaphor. I hope I have the balls to stick to my guns here when my son, you know, is 18. But I really want to present a full array of options to him and to all future kids. Where it's like, you could choose trade school, you could choose a four year college though, you know, figure out some ways to pay for it, buddy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Liz Wolf]

You could choose some sort of other creative path. But at the age of maybe 17, not the age of 22 or 23, the age of like 17, you need to be thinking, what is it that I am uniquely gifted at and what are the ways that I can make money with that? And it doesn't have to. You don't have to have a perfectly sketched out plan and you know, things can change on you. But I just find this whole trend of like, people will bankroll their kids college educations and their kid will be an undecided major, undeclared major, until they're 21 or 22 and the kid wastes a bunch of money and then they graduate and they still don't really know what they want to do. And look, I love iterative processes. I'm all for trial and error, but like, come on, this is a recipe for wasting money and wasting time. And I just don't think we parents need to be guiding children to not permit them to do that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Totally. Well, I've loved this conversation. You are just one of my absolute favorites. End us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.

[Liz Wolf]

Okay, Play like a child. Next time you see a trampoline, please go jump on it. Next time you see the ocean, run into it. Next time kids are having a monkey bar contest, like, you enter. I just think that, you know, the Twitter meme is like, go out and touch grass. And it's like, no actually just, like, start playing again. People, get off of your damn screens and just embrace the tactile, beautiful, risky world out there. And I just, I guarantee it will do good things to your soul.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love it. She is Liz Wolf. Sign up for Reason Roundup. Check out Just asking questions. Thank you so much for coming on, Liz.

[Liz Wolf]

Thank you so much, Carol. It's always a pleasure.

[Carol Markowitz]

Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Markowitz Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

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