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Karol Markowicz Show: The Quest for Peace in Gaza with Joseph Braude
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- [00:00]
Carol Markowitz
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Joseph Braude
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- [02:01]
Joseph Braude
Every day our world gets a little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind us to be more human.
- [02:14]
Carol Markowitz
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Carol Markowitz
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Joseph Braude
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- [03:03]
Carol Markowitz
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iheartradio. A lot of you agreed with the advice I gave the couple who wrote in last week. To recap, a woman wrote in saying she's 32 and her boyfriend is 36. They've been dating for six years, and she wrote in with the concern that despite the fact that they voted similarly, they're both Republicans who voted for Trump. She's moving rightward and he's moving leftward. I told them that politics wasn't actually their problem. It's that they've been together for six years and are not engaged, not moving forward. And a lot of you agreed with that. I had lunch with a new friend this week and we talked relationships and how. I think it's the moving forward together that really keeps a relationship going. I'm married for nearly 16 years, but we're constantly thinking about our future. What are our summer plans? Not just this summer, but also summer 2026. Our youngest child is nine. But what are we thinking for when the kids are out of the house? How long will we stay in our current house? It'll be too big for us. But we also love the idea of them having a comfortable home to come back to whenever they want and bring our grandkids back, too. I know life happens, and the future you picture doesn't always work out the way you think it will. It's a common story. I'm not saying that moving forward immediately inoculates you from that. Plenty of people have been married 20 years, 30 years, pictured their future lives together and had it end abruptly. It happens. I know, but it helps when you're looking outward in the same direction. It helps sustain your current relationship to think about the future together. I would say that while building toward a Future together doesn't 100% mean that the future will work out the way you intend. If you're not building together, then that is probably a problem. You should be a team. You're a unit. And so many people, you know, I've heard this over the years say things like they love the whole oh, but Woody Allen and Mia Farrow waved each other from their own individual apartments across Central Park. You don't have to live together. You don't have to tie your lives to each other. And you could still be together. Sure, but we know how their story ends. And while not every relationship like that will end up with the guy marrying his girlfriend's daughter. I've never heard of a relationship that isn't moving forward that ends up working out. And yes, I do mean moving forward with all the traditional markers of marriage. Living together, tying your lives together. Officially, I gave them advice last episode, but if the couple who wrote in are listening, I would add that you shouldn't try to rewrite how relationships work. This thing has been working the way it has. This plan has existed for hundreds of years. Keep moving forward together. Thanks for listening. Coming up, my interview with Joseph Braude. But first, after more than a year of war, terror and pain in Israel, all of Israel is brokenhearted after learning of the tragic deaths of the Biba's children who were held hostage in Gaza. And so many are still hurting throughout the Holy Land, where the need for aid continues to grow. The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews has supported and continues to support the families of hostages and other victims of the October 7 terror attacks. With your help, IFCJ has provided financial and emotional help to hostages and their families and to those healing and rebuilding their broken homes and broken bodies. But the real work is just beginning. Your gift will help provide critically needed support to families in Israel whose lives continue to be destroyed by terror and uncertainty as Israel remains surrounded by enemies. Give a gift to bless Israel and her people by visiting supportifcj.org one word supportifcj.org or call 888488 IFCJ. That's 888488 IFCJ. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are gonna give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty. Which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful Beauty Confidence is beautiful. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com the battlefield is set. The stakes are high. The only thing standing between you and victory. Nothing. Ascend to the pinnacle of gaming greatness with Lenovo Legion laptops, towers and the new award winning Legion Go, the world's first officially licensed handheld. Powered by SteamOS, Legion relentlessly pushes gaming technology forward with towers built for raw, untamed power. Laptops with best in class AI tuning that sharpen your reflexes and the Legion Go, a handheld for serious gaming on the go. Stay ahead with lightning fast responsiveness on a stunning 616 inch PureSight display. Keep your cool with cold front thermal technology engineered for marathon sessions and with all day battery life. The game never stops until you say so. So check out lenovo.com legion Lenovo Lenovo empowering creators Everywhere.
- [09:00]
Joseph Braude
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- [09:30]
Carol Markowitz
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- [10:25]
Joseph Braude
Thank you so much, Carol. It's my pleasure.
- [10:27]
Carol Markowitz
I have to tell you that your group has some big goals. Those are some wide ranging achievements that you guys are hoping to get to. What made you start this group?
- [10:43]
Joseph Braude
Well, my background is in the study of the Middle east and I've been living and working in Arab countries and Iran for the past 30 years. And one of the things that one learns very quickly is that despite the projections and coverage of extremism, violence and terror, there are so many people who just want a different future and have the courage to press for it. But they've been denied the opportunity. They've been denied a platform, organizational tools and other things that are essential while their Islamist and militant rivals are funded and armed to the teeth. So what we try to do is fill that gap a little bit by providing our moral support, but also our help in amplifying their voices, helping them organize and grow their numbers so that they can begin to rectify the imbalance in these societies.
- [11:46]
Carol Markowitz
Do you feel hopeful about that? It's just it sounds so unachievable right now it seems further away than ever. I think a lot of people that used to have peace as a goal in the Middle east are kind of like, I don't think this will ever happen. And now we should just prepare for not war, necessarily, not hot war, but just to constantly be on guard and that the peace goal is completely off the table.
- [12:14]
Joseph Braude
Well, there's reason to be hopeful if you take a longer look at what's happened in the past few decades. One sterling example is the uae. And I bring it up because when I first lived there in 1999 as a graduate student, the Muslim Brotherhood was the dominant cultural force in the country. And over a 20 year period, that government set out to systematically change the culture of the UAE to empower elements within the society that didn't want what the Brotherhood had to sell, changed the schools, the nature of religious indoctrination and media incitement into something much more constructive. And over time, it really has changed the fabric of the society and paved the way to a more peaceful environment for people all over the world. So these kinds of changes are possible. They take top down efforts and grassroots support from the bottom. And you have to try because what is after all the alternative, you know, military solutions alone don't fix the problem.
- [13:31]
Carol Markowitz
So the center for Peace Communications recently had these videos showing that Gazans support Trump's relocation plan. And that was a surprise to me. Was it a surprise to you or did you expect to find that?
- [13:45]
Joseph Braude
So those videos are a little piece of a much longer series of testimony that we've been releasing going back to the beginning of 2023. And we've platformed Gazans to share since long before October 7th to share what it's like to live under Hamas rule and talk about their ideas for a different future. And we've platformed the very brave people who took to the streets in 2019 and July of 2023 to protest Hamas rule at great cost to themselves and their families. So these recent videos were an effort to understand what Gazens thought of the statements that President Trump made about the idea of resettlement, voluntary relocation to other countries, perhaps in the region. And what we found wasn't that surprising, actually. The fact that a lot of people, it would seem the majority of Gazans today, want to take up President Trump on the opportunity to live elsewhere is a natural reaction to the the terrible conditions of Gaza today. It's the same human instinct that has led millions of Syrians and Ukrainians to flee their countries during war. Now in Syria, we see some Number of them beginning to come back under changed conditions. But even before October 7, there was a Palestinian poll that showed about a third of the population of Gaza wanting to migrate in response to corruption and brutality under Hamas rule. And that was when there was still a semblance of continuity in daily life. And obviously as the war took its human toll and there's, you know, some indication that Hamas remains a force to be reckoned with in the Strip. Those are two pieces of really bad news that makes the desire to find safe haven even more strong and more broad.
- [16:02]
Carol Markowitz
Countries that have taken in Ukrainians or Syrians haven't taken in Palestinians in anywhere near the same numbers.
- [16:09]
Joseph Braude
I think that the countries that are pondering this and setting policies about and toward Gaza need to choose between helping the, between the cause of helping Palestinians and alleviating the suffering in Gaza versus feeding the a very militant and ultimately self destructive definition of a cause as defined by Hamas. That puts the cause and Hamas maintaining power ahead of the interests of the population. So there's talk of forced migration, but it's actually a red herring. The real force, these people want safe haven. The force that's being applied is by Hamas, they're threatening to shoot people if they would, if they try to emigrate. And the reason is the same reason that they actually did shoot people in northern Gaza fleeing fighting in the south, because they wanted to keep them there as human shields. So that's not a cause anybody should want to serve. But when a majority of Gazans are saying, President Trump, are you serious? Because if we had an opportunity to live safely in perhaps another Arab country or beyond, we would do it. That's something that the world needs to listen to.
- [17:39]
Carol Markowitz
Do you think he's serious?
- [17:41]
Joseph Braude
Well, I mean, we don't know. There's a lot of speculation as to whether the purpose of those statements was to affect negotiations and other discussions about the future of Gaza, to prompt Arab countries to innovate remedies of their own. So it's not clear. But what is clear to me based on hundreds of interviews that we continue to do every day in Gaza, is that if these people had the opportunity, if that border opened, it would look like the fall of the Berlin Wall. It would be a human deluge of people seeking a better life. And as one person put it, if so much as a crack opened in that wall, Gazans would rush to break it down.
- [18:32]
Carol Markowitz
Did you always want to be in this kind of space? Like when you were a kid, what did you want to be?
- [18:37]
Joseph Braude
I've always been interested in two things, which are the use of media and communications to change things for the better as a cultural driver and a love of the Middle east, of the peoples and cultures of the Middle East. And that dates back to family heritage. My mother was born in Baghdad to the remnants of the Jewish community in Iraq that goes back to 2600 years in the country. And I've been studying the music of the Middle east, which I play, and the history, the culture and really kind of living it all this time. So it's been a natural and continual development of ideas and efforts.
- [19:26]
Carol Markowitz
Do you get support for your work from the Jewish community?
- [19:31]
Joseph Braude
Is it so we are funded. We're a nonprofit organization that is funded entirely by American private philanthropy. There's no government support and there's no foreign funding. And the, the religion of, of, of our donors, actually they're, they're of all religious backgrounds, certainly including members of the Jewish community. And also it's a bipartisan, straddles Democrats and Republicans.
- [20:01]
Carol Markowitz
Really. That's interesting. Any like, is it 5050 or is it more of one or the other?
- [20:09]
Joseph Braude
I mean, I'd have to think about what the breakdown is. I think the, the reason why we attract, you know, different people with different ideas is that the, the issues that we bring forward don't divide between right and left. And, you know, these are human causes. I mean, when we're speaking about the specific issue of the question of resettlement, one of the other things that these Gazans are saying is this should not be politicized.
- [20:40]
Carol Markowitz
Right?
- [20:42]
Joseph Braude
And we really try to take that to heart ourselves in the nature of what we do as well.
- [20:49]
Carol Markowitz
We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty. Which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty. Confidence is beautiful. Learn more@meaningfulbeauty.com Creativity doesn't wait. It moves, shifts, evolves, just like you. And with a yoga PC from Lenovo, your tools finally keep up. Stunning, smart and sustainably sourced yoga PCs from Lenovo are designed to amplify your creativity with AI powered performance. Whether you're sketching, editing, animating or Composing yoga moves with you, adapting to your creativity, to your rhythm. With beautiful displays and the flexibility to shift from laptop to tablet, yoga unlocks new ways to inspire and create. Because at Lenovo, we believe your tools should fuel your flow, not hold you back. Yoga PCs from Lenovo support you at every step of your creative journey. So check out lenovo.com yoga and supercharge your creativity with yoga, empowering creators everywhere.
- [22:29]
Joseph Braude
Every day, our world gets a little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind us to be more human.
- [22:42]
Carol Markowitz
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Joseph Braude
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Joseph Braude
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Carol Markowitz
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Joseph Braude
So if you want to know more.
- [23:32]
Carol Markowitz
About the AT&T Guarantee, head to att.com guarantee AT&T connecting changes, terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guarantee for details. It's interesting. And the reason I ask that is I think some of my listeners are going to be surprised that I'm interviewing somebody like you. I just think that a lot of people again today hear peace or, you know, committee, you know, a group that is committed to peace and they think, oh, that just means Israel is going to have to surrender or, oh, that just means, you know, a pro Hamas. Really take. And you're not like that. You're not that at all. So I think it's interesting. I was just wondering, like, who you appealed to initially or in general. That's. That's why I was asking that, like, if it's left or right.
- [24:23]
Joseph Braude
So it's a good question. Let me give you an example of how we see this. There are a lot of people in the US who have been concerned about a rising protest movement on college campus that while ostensibly concerned about the Palestinians, has been, in effect.
- [24:45]
Carol Markowitz
Exactly. Yeah.
- [24:46]
Joseph Braude
Pro Hamas. So the voices that we bring out from the region are presenting a challenge to Those people and urging them to choose between supporting Hamas and supporting the people who are suffering under the rule of Hamas in Gaza. And that is, you know, it's a nuance. It's not really a nuance. It's a crucial distinction that makes all of the difference. You know, where are your humanitarian instincts being directed? And Hamas works to manipulate people into serving them when they're the, really the, the most inhumane actor in the area.
- [25:34]
Carol Markowitz
What do you worry about?
- [25:35]
Joseph Braude
Well, I worry that the opportunity to empower people who want a different future will be missed. And the reason is that, you know, democratic countries in the west tend to pursue a very militarized foreign policy. That is, they do hard power very well. They know how to develop armies, and these are, are essential tools for tools of statecraft. But when it comes to the strategic use of soft power, right, there's, there's an issue, there's a little bit of a problem because a lot of the aid organizations and endowments for democratic development have supported, you know, undemocratic forces in, in many countries. And there hasn't really been a strategic use of American soft power to actually strengthen the forces that want to confront these horrible militias on the ground themselves. And yet these people are there. They're an essential part of the, the larger puzzle of how to defeat these destructive ideologies. And the opportunity I worry about people missing is engaging these people, figuring out how to strengthen their hand, level the playing field and actually win this competition against an ideology that has brought only death and destruction.
- [27:13]
Carol Markowitz
Do you think there's an example of a country that does use soft power? Well, is there anybody we should be emulating?
- [27:19]
Joseph Braude
I think the example, the example that I'd be most proud of is the United States. At crucial moments in the Cold War when we were supporting opponents of Soviet communism and Stalinism behind the Iron Curtain, we were helping them by broadcasting the truth into their countries via Radio Liberty. We were empowering labor unions to challenge Soviet domination from within. We were helping public intellectuals, getting them platforms to express themselves and challenge these ideologies on the basis of rational argumentation, while we were also employing economic and military tools at the same time. And that combination, I think, is a big part of what won the Cold War. And in advocating for competitive soft power, I'm not suggesting something new. I'm suggesting a revival of a tradition that America once embraced and did very well.
- [28:34]
Carol Markowitz
What advice would you give your 16 year old self? What have you learned along the way that he needs to know?
- [28:40]
Joseph Braude
I guess when I was 16 and I wanted to.
- [28:44]
Carol Markowitz
Where were you, first of all?
- [28:46]
Joseph Braude
Well, I was in high school in Providence, Rhode Island.
- [28:48]
Carol Markowitz
Okay.
- [28:49]
Joseph Braude
Public high school. I was playing jazz piano. I was publishing a newspaper, little neighborhood newspaper. And I was thinking about how to develop a relationship with the peoples and cultures of the Middle east that would be about bringing change. And I guess the thing that I worried about the most was how do you connect with these distant places and develop sustained relationships while living a balanced life at the same time? I mean, the jet setting that would be necessary, extensive travel and so on. How do you build and maintain bonds of trust with people all over the Middle East? And to some degree those problems, I don't want to say they solved themselves, but the, the availability of WhatsApp and Zoom and, and so many tools that we have today enable one to build organizational relationships and virtual workplaces and things that were inconceivable when I was 16. So I guess I would have told myself to relax because sometimes solutions present themselves over time to things that seem insurmountable in the moment.
- [30:06]
Carol Markowitz
Did you feel a connection to Iraq because of your heritage? Like, absolutely.
- [30:11]
Joseph Braude
I feel.
- [30:11]
Carol Markowitz
Does it matter to you? Yeah.
- [30:13]
Joseph Braude
Deeply connected. And one of the, one of the things that I'm most proud of that we did as an organization back in September of 2021 was to go to Iraq to organize a fleet of 60 cars to bring 312 Iraqis from across the country from Baghdad. Abel Salahuddin Diala from six governorates to an event hall in northern Iraq where they collectively and publicly called for peace with Israel and an end to Iranian domination. And they did this in open defiance of Iranian militias. And I was one of the people who gave a speech in Arabic at the event, but joined by some of the bravest people I've ever met, including a single mother of five who risked everything to give what turned out to be the most stirring speech of the evening. Hezbollah declared war on the conference. Hassan Nasrallah himself made a speech calling for an all out assault on the people who had stood up to do this. We had a plan in place to protect them. It succeeded and it just was a public display of this trend. I'm talking about the fact that 300 people stood up and called for normalization with is in a place like Iraq, surrounded by militias, speaks to the vast number of people who share their aspirations if they don't have quite as much courage.
- [31:48]
Carol Markowitz
It's actually amazing to me that you feel that connection to Iraq. I was born in the former Soviet Union, I was born in Russia, but My father's from Ukraine. I mean, just the way that they treated Jews, it makes me not feel that warm towards either country. And you know, I wonder about the fact that you still want to help a country that wasn't great to your family. I'm sure it's kind of amazing to me. And where do you think it comes from?
- [32:20]
Joseph Braude
Well, it's a mixed historical legacy. First of all, it's a very long history. It dates back 2,600 years to the destruction of the Temple of Solomon and the Babylonian exile. And so although it ended very badly, The Farhud of 1941 was a terrible massacre of Jews. And that accelerated the end of 2,600 years of Iraqi Jewish history. You know, there were many long periods of coexistence. Iraqi Jews helped build the Iraqi state. The first Sec. Treasury minister of Iraq who persuaded the British to compensate Iraq for its oil in gold was an Iraqi Jew. The most of the players of the Iraqi National Orchestra were Jews. They migrated with 150,000 others to Israel and became the voice of Israel Arabic Orchestra which enjoyed a very large audience in the Middle east into the 60s and 70s. So there are these lingering friendships and positive memories in addition to the virulent strand of Jew hatred that was always there and that spiked considerably in the 20th century when powerful forces began to bankroll them, beginning with the Nazis who were in some ways orchestrating through, through proxies that terrible massacre. So you, you know, the kind of support that we want to provide to Iraqis is a support that is based on peace and partnership between the Israeli and the Iraqi people. We believe that that is in the interest of both countries. We believe that those who oppose co development, regional integration and so on are the ones who harm Iraq and the ones who stand peace and development, those are the ones who need to be helped. So it's a very, it's a kind of a specific kind of aspiration and it's something I believe in very deeply.
- [34:37]
Carol Markowitz
Well, this has been super interesting. I had no idea where this was going to go, so I really enjoyed our conversation. End here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
- [34:51]
Joseph Braude
Well, I mean my experience has been to focus. I mean I have a sense of who I am and I've given a lot of thought to my place in the world. But overwhelmingly I focus outward on listening to people, on understanding others on their own terms rather than projecting my own identity and sensibilities onto them. So I would stress the importance of looking outward at least as much as we think inward.
- [35:27]
Carol Markowitz
I love that he is Joseph Braude. His group is center for Peace Communications. Check out their work. It's super interesting. Thank you so much for coming on. Joseph.
- [35:35]
Joseph Braude
Thank you Carol.
- [35:36]
Carol Markowitz
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Markowitz Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Upgrade the whole team at lenovo.com, unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device. Win the Tech Search for Business PCs@lenovo.com Lenovo Lenovo.
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