Karol Markowicz Show: The State of Young Relationships Today with Abigail Shrier

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show – Episode: Karol Markowicz Show: The State of Young Relationships Today with Abigail Shrier

Release Date: March 26, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, hosts Clay and Buck delve into an insightful conversation presented by Carol Markowitz on IHEARTradio, featuring guest Abigail Schreier. The discussion centers on the evolving landscape of young relationships, examining the decline in romantic and platonic connections among today's youth. The episode navigates through cultural shifts, technological impacts, and personal anecdotes to shed light on the complexities facing young individuals in forming meaningful relationships.

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Decline of Young Relationships

Carol Markowitz opens the discussion by addressing the alarming trend of declining relationships among young people. Citing data from a recent Wall Street Journal article, she highlights that over half of women aged 18 to 40 are single and neither married nor cohabitating—a significant increase from previous decades.

"The share of women age 18 to 40 who are single that is neither married nor cohabitating with a partner was 51.4% in 2023, up from 41.8% in 2000." ([27:03])

Carol emphasizes that this decline isn't limited to marriage but extends to all forms of relationships, including friendships. She attributes this trend to various factors, including shifts in societal priorities and the challenges inherent in the modern dating culture.

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Impact of Technology and Social Media

The conversation shifts to the role of technology in shaping young relationships. Both Carol and Abigail acknowledge that smartphones and the internet have significantly altered how young people interact.

Carol Markowitz notes:

"Phones are related to it. That they're not living like real lives or they're just on the Internet." ([23:03])

She further explains that the omnipresence of digital devices distracts from face-to-face interactions, leading to superficial connections rather than deep, meaningful relationships. This digital immersion fosters a fear of vulnerability, making interpersonal relationships seem risky and emotionally taxing.

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Personal Experiences and Advice

Abigail Schreier shares her perspectives on fostering healthy relationships amidst these challenges. She discusses the importance of genuine communication and the difficulties young people face in establishing trust and intimacy.

Carol Markowitz adds her insights:

"Young people are putting all their energy into their careers and none into finding a spouse. And I do think that's a real problem." ([22:12])

She reflects on her own experiences, highlighting the societal pressures that prioritize professional success over personal connections. Carol advocates for a balanced approach, where personal relationships are given equal importance alongside career aspirations.

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Role of Religious Communities in Fostering Relationships

One of the standout pieces of advice comes from Carol Markowitz, who suggests that joining a religious community can be a powerful way to cultivate meaningful relationships.

"Honestly, the easiest, quickest, most assured way... is to join a religious community, join a church, join a synagogue. There is no quicker way to get actual real community that is in person, that is meaningful, that is full of connections." ([30:31])

She argues that religious institutions provide a structured environment conducive to forming lasting bonds, emphasizing face-to-face interactions and shared values as key components in building strong relationships.

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Maintaining Friendships in the Modern Age

The discussion also touches on the decline of friendships among young people. Carol Markowitz expresses concern over the diminishing ability to maintain long-term friendships, which traditionally have been a cornerstone of personal fulfillment.

"Friendships are amazing things because you start out, you have these conflicts... but years go by, and for whatever reason, it has this amazing cementing effect of making your friendship so meaningful and so strong." ([27:03])

She highlights the importance of overcoming initial conflicts and investing time in relationships to develop deep and resilient friendships, warning that the current trends may lead to a generation missing out on these essential connections.

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Conclusions and Future Outlook

As the episode concludes, Carol Markowitz underscores the critical need for young people to prioritize personal relationships alongside professional goals. She emphasizes the role of communities—be it religious, social, or familial—in fostering environments where meaningful connections can thrive.

Abigail Schreier and Carol Markowitz collectively advocate for a return to more personal, in-person interactions to combat the isolating effects of modern technology. They call on listeners to actively seek out and nurture relationships, emphasizing that the rewards of meaningful connections far outweigh the fears and challenges associated with them.

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Notable Quotes

• Carol Markowitz on effectiveness and backlash:

  "People get angry with me because I'm effective. That's what makes them so angry." ([16:42])

• Carol Markowitz on the role of a journalist:

  "I try to create a document that people can take that's full of information and that can really add to the discourse." ([27:03])

• Carol Markowitz on personal advice:

  "If I could go back, I wish I would have known that actually... white lies would actually be to my advantage in a career in journalism." ([31:23])

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Conclusion

This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of the challenges facing young relationships today. Through thoughtful analysis and personal anecdotes, The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show highlights the multifaceted issues of declining relationships, the disruptive impact of technology, and the pathways to fostering meaningful connections in an increasingly digital world. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own relationship practices and consider the advice offered to cultivate stronger, more fulfilling personal bonds.

Transcript

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[Carol Markowitz]

Hi, welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on IHEARTradio. There's an article that seems to be written every few weeks now and the latest is titled American Women Are Giving up on Marriage and was in Saturday's Wall Street Journal. I'm not criticizing the genre. I obviously talk about this topic maybe more than any other, and I appreciate that these pieces are sounding the alarm. Just kind of think they're not quite getting it right. Here's a quote from the article. I'm financially self sufficient enough to do these things by myself, said a woman they interviewed, a Boston based accountant. I'm willing to accept being single versus settling for someone who isn't the right fit. She sees her plans for an independent future as making the best of a lousy situation. I don't want to sit here and say I'm 100% happy, but I feel happier just accepting my reality. I'm mentally and emotionally a sense of peace. She's only 29. She's 29 and she's given up on finding her person. It's just depressing. But here's the thing. At 29, I was in a six year relationship with someone who I did not marry. I was certain, I mean a thousand percent sure that I didn't want to get married and I didn't want to have kids. I started dating my husband the following year when I was 30 and we got married the year after that. It changes so quickly. Why does a 29 year old feel so despondent about her future? The problem is the dating culture. If you talk to anyone in it, well, you feel extra grateful to not be in it. But they use this language that's just become ridiculous. Like I get what a situationship is, but giving it a name as opposed to just like someone you're hooking up with makes it sound so much more important than it is. As listeners have heard me say on this show before, the problem is a decline in marriage, yes, but it's a decline in all relationships, including friendships. The top message that I get to this show is from parents writing in about helping their kid, sometimes a teen, sometimes a twenty something have more of a social life. Something has definitely shifted for the worse. Listen to this stat from the article. The share of women age 18 to 40 who are single that is neither married nor cohabitating with a partner was 51.4% in 2023, according to an analysis of census data by the Aspen Economic Strategy Group. That's up from 41.8% in 2000. I mean, a 10 point jump in, you know, 20 years or so. And that part about cohabitating is important. It's not just marriage that people aren't participating in. It's not this piece of paper. It's not the institution. It's everything. It's having relationships in general. There are a lot of reasons for it. And a lot of the articles and a lot of the research focuses on the financial more than anything else. Women are succeeding at previously unheard of levels. Men aren't. Women want to marry up, et cetera. But is that what you're hearing from real people in your life who are trying to find someone? It's not at all what I'm hearing. I'm hearing that women can't find a man who will be faithful, and men say they can't find a woman who isn't into material things. Women say men don't ask any questions about themselves on dates. So a woman will ask him about his family, about his job, about his hobbies, and he won't say a word asking her in return, he'll just answer her questions. Men say that women expect them to carry conversations and interactions. I get that those things are diametrically opposed, but I hear both of these perspectives, and these are all things that I've heard multiple times. We're missing the forest for the trees. It's not that women are focused on their jobs. It's that they are focused on their jobs because they can't find a man. I'd love to hear from listeners on this AM I right is the whole. She's just a career woman, a red herring. Let me know what you think. Thanks for listening. Coming up, my interview with Abigail Schreier. But first, after more than a year of war, terror and pain in Israel, the need for security essentials, support for first responders is still critical even in times of ceasefire. Israel must be prepared for the next attack, wherever it may come from, as Israel is surrounded by enemies on all sides. The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews has supported and will continue to support the people of Israel with life saving security essentials. Your gift today will help save lives by providing bomb shelters, armored security vehicles and ambulances, firefighting equipment, flak jackets and bulletproof vests, and so much more. Your generous donation today will help ensure the people of Israel are safe and secure in the days to come. Give a gift to bless Israel and her people by visiting supportifcj.org that's one word. Supportifcj.org or call 888-488-IFCJ. That's 888-488-IFCj. 888-488-4325.

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[Abigail Schreier]

Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on IHEARTradio. My guest today is Abigail Schreier. Abigail is contributing editor at the Free Press and the author of two best selling books, Irreversible Damage, the Transgender Craze, Seducing Our Daughters and Bad Therapy, why the Kids Aren't Growing Up. Abigail is also one of my all time favorite people. Hi, Abigail. So nice to have you on.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, it's great to be here, Carol. Great to talk to you.

[Abigail Schreier]

So I feel like my first question to you has to be, why do you do it? Why do you do this? Why do you write controversial books that are going to bring you nasty hate mail when. And here's the thing. I think you are amazing, brilliant, but you're also a fantastic writer. Like a lot of people in our world are smart, but they don't have a beautiful writing style. You could be writing about anything, but you're choosing to go into the lion's den. Why?

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, thank you. That's very kind of you to say. I mean, I write about what interests me and I write about things where I don't know the answer to the question and, you know, starting out with, you know, irreversible damage. A reader wrote to me to tell me about this sudden spike in transgender identification among teenage girls. And no one was at the time willing to write about it. And I wanted to know if she was right. And so it sort of took me on an investigative journey, but it wasn't, you know, provocation wasn't the point. It was really sort of getting, getting to the answer. And I like That, I mean, I like getting to the answer. I always feel that I feel personally much safer in a world where I feel like I have full information and I know what's going on. And the truth is more than sort of public opprobrium. Things that worry me is really not knowing or being fooled. And those things actually do scare me. So, you know, you sort of have to do go with who you are in life, I think, especially in your profession. And, you know, the job sort of suits me. It just does.

[Abigail Schreier]

It does. But you're so not like you're very mild mannered and just a calm, rational person. I mean, your books are very calm and rational too. But I think that the hate at you is not. And I don't know, I worry about you in that way just because, like, it's not like you don't need it, but you don't need it. You don't need that kind of response and yet you're going out there and doing it anyway. I'm very proud of you. Obviously. I think that that's, you know, the way to be. I, I don't know necessarily that I have that.

[Carol Markowitz]

So.

So people get angry with me because I'm effective. That's what makes them so angry.

[Abigail Schreier]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

So I think if I were more provocative or extreme or ungrounded or unfounded and things I had to say, I would get a lot less hate and I would be more ignored. And the reason that I get attention is because I try to craft things in a way that will be effective and well grounded and therefore hard to ignore. So that that makes some activists angry who are trying to keep the facts from getting to light. I really think that's sort of their problem. And I leave the rest up to the public. But I'm going to keep doing my job.

[Abigail Schreier]

What was your path here? How did you get your start?

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, so that's a great question. So I always did journalism, high school. I was a stringer for the Wall Street Washington Jewish Week and through college. And then I was working at the Washington Monthly and I got the advice from some of my editors. Journalists are so often dilettantes. They don't, you know, you have to know about everything, but you never know anything deeply. You should really try to get a PhD or learn something deeply. And I thought, well, I wasn't sure I wanted to do a PhD. I did some graduate work.

[Abigail Schreier]

That seems drastic.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, it seems drastic. But one thing they said that did scare me, it wasn't anything they said, actually. It was something they did. And that was that my editor, one of my editors. She was this beautiful, young, very talented editor and I think she was about 25 at the time. And she was going out to dinner with this 65 year old man who was rich, just so he would buy her dinner because the editors were so poor at the Washington Monthly that they would basically do anything for a nice meal. And that scared me. That scared me more than anything she said. So after that I went to law school. I thought, this is journalism, I'll buy.

[Abigail Schreier]

My own dinner actually.

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly. I thought journalism could be very bleak if that's what you have to do to get a meal. So I went to law school, but I never really enjoyed the practice of law. And so when my kids were born, I started writing these novels and they weren't going anywhere. And I thought, I have to get my novels out before I go back to journalism. Because once people find out, once people see my journalism, they'll never let me publish another novel. But my novels were not successful. I never sold one. So I decided, you know what, I have so many thoughts, I'm just going to go back to journalism. And from there I just started writing for the local press and my career sort of took off.

[Abigail Schreier]

Would law have been the plan B?

[Carol Markowitz]

I suppose. I mean, I like writing about law even now. It's certainly an advantage in journalism to be able to write accurately about law. It's something that trips up a lot of journalists. So certainly having that in my toolkit, as it were, as something I can write about, I have found very useful. I'm not scared by a statute in the way that very reasonably, some journalists would be. Well, I mean, understandably, I mean, and I also, you know, you know, because I went to Yale Law School, I have a number of professors I can call up if I'm not sure about something and get a really, really smart take. So. So, you know, I like having, you know, personally I'm glad that I went to law school, but, you know, the journalism just, just really suits my personality best.

[Abigail Schreier]

You live in California and I've had a lot of people on the show who have left California in the last five years. And you're staying, you're waiting it out. How is it going? How is it out there?

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, obviously California is a disaster in so many ways. That's no secret. We're horribly governed all the way down from the state level through my local here in la. I mean, the governance is a disaster. But I write about the culture and there is really no better way to look at how the culture has gone drastically off course how it has undermined families and children than to be in a, in the state where a lot of that, those bad ideas and bad policies get started. So, you know, from that perspective, it really is a candy store for a journalist and for, from the perspective of our family, we're in a, we happen to be in a very nice community. So, you know, the kids are in a good school we're happy with. So from that perspective, it's. We're doing all right.

[Abigail Schreier]

So California gets to keep you for now.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes, absolutely.

[Abigail Schreier]

We'll revisit.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. Okay, sounds good.

[Abigail Schreier]

What do you worry about?

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, so there's, there's so much to worry about. But I think the thing I worry about the most right now is why young people are not forming relationships, healthy relationships. Sort of the retreat from the in person world and also the lack of meaningful romantic relationships that we're seeing young people less interested in having them. They, they, they're too young to know that they're giving up on the best things in life and, and also they've been lied to. A lot of them believe that. No, I need to get my profession started first. I can't possibly date someone until I've pursued my career as a paralegal. And it's.

[Abigail Schreier]

Paralegal, don't go pursuing that career. Go ahead and find your spouse now.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. I mean, you know, for any job they will put off finding a spouse and it really should be the reverse. You know, I'm not saying, you know, don't take your career seriously, but God willing, we have many decades, productive decades ahead. But you know, the way we're designed, we have a short time with biology and in which to have children and to marry. And that's the thing that we actually should be, you know, putting at least as much energy into, if not more. And unfortunately it's really reversed. Young people are putting all their energy into their careers and none into finding a spouse. And I do think that's a real problem.

[Abigail Schreier]

Do you think phones are related to it? That they're not living like real lives or they're, they're just on the Internet?

[Carol Markowitz]

Absolutely, undeniably. But I also think that the fearfulness of the generation, they're so full of worry and look, interpersonal relationships are the scariest and most risky things you'll ever get involved in and they're also the most rewarding. But not knowing if someone's going to like you back, much less love you back, not knowing if you're going to get your heart broken. These are really scary things and we've raised this generation to be the most fearful. And so unfortunately, they're staying away from the the ultimate rewards of a loving relationship.

[Abigail Schreier]

We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.

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[Abigail Schreier]

I talk about this a lot on the show, about relationships and about all kinds of connections between people. Family, friendships. Friendships are way down. It's not just they're not just not making romantic connections. They're not even making friends anymore. And I get emails all the time from people saying like, how can I help my teenager? Or how could I help my 20 something make friends? It's become so like, people see it as out of reach to connect with other people and it's scary.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, you had a great column on that. I should have mentioned that. It was a terrific column. Everyone should go back and read it if they missed it. On the decline of friendship. It was something that I wasn't aware of until I saw your column. And it's exactly. What you just said is exactly right. I mean, we look back on our lives, friendships, and romantic relationships. These are in your spouse, and then these are at the top of what gives you meaning and satisfaction in life. And friendships are amazing things because you start out, you have these conflicts, right? You know, you get very close to someone, then you fall out of touch or maybe you get angry with them or whatever happens. But this is the amazing thing. Years go by, and for whatever reason, it has this amazing cementing effect of making your friendship so meaningful and so strong. And it doesn't even matter how mad you got at her over this or that in the sixth grade you look back and all of a sudden you've known her for 30 years. And, and I do very much worry that kids are missing out on those close friendships.

[Abigail Schreier]

Yeah, I definitely, like, it's something that I think about a lot that, you know, I'm on my phone a lot. I can't, I can't say that I'm not guilty of the same thing. Every, every moment of awkwardness, I immediately reach my phone just like, whoa, this feels much more comfortable. I could just scroll and not focus on whatever is happening here. How do you kind of direct your kids toward those connections?

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. So first of all, let me just acknowledge that it's near impossible to manage the phones and the computers. It's so hard. And the schools have made it harder than any, I think any institution. You try to keep these things away from your kids. And then every teacher assigns homework through some school, some computer programs. So let me just start by saying I'm, you know, not, not perfect by any means. How do I direct my kids to in person relationships? I do send them to a school with a no phone policy, which has been really wonderful. And you know, my, my sons who are in high school, they have what's known as kosher phones. You can actually buy these things and they are Internet blocked.

That's great.

That doesn't, it's been wonderful for us. They have you know, various apps like WhatsApp for communicating with teams or you know, chatting apps, but when it like Gmail so they can use their, see their schedules and whatnot, but it's not the open Internet. Okay, so that's somewhat better. But, but truthfully, and this goes to another question that I think is you let me know is on your mind is sort of what advice would I give? And that is that.

[Abigail Schreier]

Let's just go right to it. What advice would you give your 16 year old self?

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, you know, what advice would I give my 16 year old self would be a little different. I'll tell you what advice I would give in general on this issue of improving life, improving your life. Honestly, and I hate to say it, and people are going to get really upset that I said this or maybe tune out, but honestly, the easiest, quickest, most assured way to do this is to join a religious community, join a church, join a synagogue. There is no quicker way to get actual real community that is in person, that is meaningful, that is full of connections. And yes, it comes with plenty of annoyance too, of course, but, but I actually think that that is the most direct Way to sort of immediately improve your life.

[Abigail Schreier]

I love it. That's usually the last question, but that's okay, that's okay. We can.

[Carol Markowitz]

What advice would I give to my 16 year old self? You know, I spent a lot of years, I think this, this may resonate with, with a lot of women. So I spent a lot of years thinking my personality was just wrong. So by which I mean you, you hear from a lot of other girls, you can't say that. My God. You know, you, that, that seems to be a theme with girl groups of girls and you spend a lot of time sort of, especially if you're like me or you know, you. I would imagine you sort of, if you're a straightforward person who just sort of calls things like you see them, you spend a lot of time with other girls being told that you're mean, you're saying all the wrong things and you don't even know what you said. And if I could go back, what I would, would, would do is sort of tell myself, you know, there's going to be a place for someone with your personality. It's not all bad. It may be hard to maintain large groups of friends of girlfriends because they want you to flatter them. And the, the ticket for large groups of girlfriends tends to be small lies and flattery, neither of which I'm terribly good at. But it turns out there's, you know, there's really a place for you no matter your personality. And I'm not talking about sociopathy or anything like that.

[Abigail Schreier]

Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

But personality and in journalism, you know, I'm not running against, you know, I'm going with the current when it comes to my personality when I tell the truth. Because that's something that's always been very easy for me. It's covering up the truth or, or taking care of everyone's feelings. That's always been harder. So I sort of, if I could go back, I wish I would have known that actually. What, what was so difficult in, in some situations that required niceties and flattery and, and you know, white lies would actually be to my advantage in a career in journalism.

[Abigail Schreier]

Did you always have primarily male friends or.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes.

[Abigail Schreier]

Yeah, same, same. Yeah. Do you know how that is? So not popular. When I say that to my 15 year old daughter, she's like, that's, you know, people they call girls like that like the pick me girl who like tries to cater to boys and like no, boys were just, they were funny and trying to be funny all the time. And that's what I was looking for totally.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I was also, I was always close to my father, and maybe that's my brother.

[Abigail Schreier]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I don't know if it's because I was close to him or we were close because we had such similar personalities, but. But I always got along with men and boys much better. And, you know, my husband says, he always jokes that I'm the only woman who wants to be told when she looks fat. Because I'll say to him, do I look fat in this? And I want to know before I leave the house. I don't want to be lied to.

[Abigail Schreier]

Right, you definitely don't want to be lied to.

[Carol Markowitz]

Apparently that's a big no. No with most women. They want to be lied to.

[Abigail Schreier]

And why would you ask, unless you wanted to know the honest opinion? What am I doing here exactly?

[Carol Markowitz]

If I don't look good, I want to change immediately before I look, leave the house. So, you know, that was always very hard with me with groups of girlfriends. I always had a female best friend, but the rest, I just couldn't maintain the group. I just could never, you know, keep the whole group happy. And, and, and I didn't know that, that those same sort of personality quirks would, Would make some areas of my life much, much easier.

[Abigail Schreier]

Do you feel like your books change the conversation enough to make those issues that you've written about better? Like, I think that you writing about the trans contagion blew it all up to such an extent that I think that, I mean, maybe I just live in Florida now, but I'm seeing a change, a shift in the way that this is all going down. It. I don't see as many. And again, this might just be a New York to Florida move. Maybe they're still all transiting in New York, but it seems like fewer girls are going down that path. And similarly, your book about, you know, over therapy for kids, I feel like the conversation around that has changed and that there's an improvement. Do you feel any of that?

[Carol Markowitz]

I do think so, and I'm. I'm very happy about that. I mean, the advantage of writing a book is here's what I try to do. I don't write a book that's just my opinions or my take. There's nothing wrong with that. But that's, that's not what I do. I try to create a document that people can take that's full of information and that can really add to the discourse. So in bad therapy, there were legislators who bought the book, who argued in court against, you know, people would argue in court against or in favor of puberty blocker bans or whatnot. And they would have all the evidence in my book. They would say, they would cite it in their briefs. And I tried to do the same for bad therapy. I wanted parents who went into school boards and were trying, who sensed in their guts there was something wrong with social, emotional learning to be able to say here, chapter, whatever chapter it was. I think it was chapter nine, but. Or chapter six. And they would say, here, it's all in this book. And that's what I try to do. I try to be a resource in that way. The nice thing about a book is that it's always there. So it's an episode will get more views. But then people rarely go back and listen to or re watch old episodes. The advantage, of course, of the episodes is, you know, unfortunately, reading is really declining. So I think. I think sort of the podcast world and the book world work really well together because you sort of need both to reach people.

[Abigail Schreier]

Absolutely. So do you.

[Walton Goggins]

When you.

[Abigail Schreier]

When people do cite your work, do they. I mean, do you feel like you've gotten the credit that you deserve for this? I feel like maybe not enough.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's very.

[Abigail Schreier]

I think Abigail Schreier deserves more. Guys.

[Carol Markowitz]

Thank you. You know, I'm happy. I think that, you know, I'm not. I think if I were more strategic about my career in certain ways, I would have stayed on each topic longer and kept promoting it and promoting it and promoting it. So within a year after Irreversible Damage was out, I was really onto new topics and new investigations because just. I'm just interested in what the next thing is. And I'm not. I'm not someone who has. I'm not an activist. I don't have a burning passion about one issue. And so, you know, as a journalist, I'm always looking at sort of what's ahead and what the next issue is. I don't know if that's the best. Always the best move for my career, it might be to make sure that I'm the one person everyone constantly goes to for this one issue. But for me, I like being able to move on to the next topic and reveal something else if I can.

[Abigail Schreier]

I love it. She is Abigail Schreier. Get her books, read her anywhere you can. You're so fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on. I've loved this conversation.

[Carol Markowitz]

Thank you, Carol. You're the best.

Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Markowitz Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Org.