Karol Markowicz Show: Why Was God Right? Mark Gerson Weighs In.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Episode: Karol Markowicz Show: Why Was God Right? Mark Gerson Weighs In
Release Date: May 30, 2025

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, host Carol Markowitz engages in a deep conversation with Mark Gerson, an investor, entrepreneur, philanthropist, and the author of the compelling book "God Was Right." Released in 2025, Gerson's book explores the timeless wisdom of the Torah and its profound relevance to modern life. The discussion delves into how ancient scriptures align with contemporary social science, offering practical guidance for today's challenges.

Mark Gerson on "God Was Right"

Mark Gerson opens the conversation by asserting the enduring accuracy and practicality of the Torah. He states:

"[00:34] Mark Gerson: The Torah, the five books of Moses, isn't just a historical or religious text—it's a comprehensive self-help guidebook that offers psychological insights and practical guidance applicable even in the 21st century."

Gerson elaborates on how his book juxtaposes biblical teachings with modern social science, demonstrating that the Torah's principles are validated by contemporary research across various domains such as diversity, antifragility, routine, and future orientation.

The Torah as a Self-Help Guide

Carol Markowitz challenges the conventional perception of the Bible as merely a historical or religious text. Gerson responds by emphasizing the Torah's role in personal development:

"[04:18] Mark Gerson: The Torah addresses everyday practicalities—like what to wear in the morning—with profound psychological insights. For instance, when God sends Adam out of Eden with garments, it's not just about clothing but about how our attire influences our self-perception and actions."

He connects this to modern experiments, such as the 2012 Northwestern University study where students wearing a doctor's coat performed better in attention-seeking tasks, and the 2014 Yale negotiation workshop where participants in suits secured better deals. Gerson uses these examples to illustrate that "how we dress influences how we feel and behave," a concept he credits to biblical wisdom.

Personal Journey and Torah Study

When asked about balancing his professional life with his personal interests, Gerson shares his commitment to studying the Torah daily:

"[08:34] Mark Gerson: I study Torah every day, beginning with a six-mile run on the treadmill, followed by study sessions in Jerusalem. This routine underscores my belief in the Torah's endless relevance and practicality."

He highlights the Haggadah as a "greatest hits" compilation of the Torah, emphasizing its role in guiding personal reflection during the Passover Seder, which he identifies as the authentic Jewish New Year.

Relevance of Biblical Teachings in Modern Society

Gerson passionately discusses the application of biblical teachings to contemporary issues:

"[13:59] Mark Gerson: My goal is for people to recognize the Torah as the ultimate self-help book. Whether someone is deciding what to wear, how much to give to charity, or planning their future, the Torah provides the answers."

He also touches on societal fears, explaining:

"[16:11] Mark Gerson: The Torah instructs us to 'do not fear' in non-immediate, fear-inducing situations, allowing us to differentiate between natural fears and concerns that should be addressed rationally."

Marriage and Relationships: Biblical Insights

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around biblical principles of love and marriage. Gerson contrasts modern notions of "falling in love" with the Torah's approach of cultivating love through intentional actions:

"[25:40] Mark Gerson: The Bible teaches that love is cultivated through consistent actions rather than spontaneous feelings. Identify key characteristics in a partner, marry based on those traits, and then perform spouse-like acts to develop enduring love."

He cites the story of Isaac and Rebecca as an example of strategic marriage based on generosity and compatibility, supported by modern social science indicating the success of intentional relationships over casual dating.

Advice for Personal Growth and Education

When asked about improving one's life, Gerson offers practical advice rooted in both biblical teachings and modern psychology:

"[30:00] Mark Gerson: Identify a characteristic you wish to develop—like generosity or kindness—and actively practice it. Consistent effort over approximately three months can integrate this trait into your personality."

Regarding education, he emphasizes the importance of finding inspiration, engaging subjects, and building meaningful relationships over the prestige of specific institutions:

"[20:32] Mark Gerson: College should be about connecting with inspiring professors, captivating subjects, and forming lasting friendships and relationships. These elements are available at numerous institutions, making the specific choice of college less critical to long-term success."

Societal Revival and the Role of Religion

Gerson envisions a societal revival through the rediscovery of the Torah's practical wisdom:

"[17:38] Mark Gerson: An authentic religious revival, like the one in Kentucky last year, can stem from recognizing the Torah's contemporary relevance. Embracing diverse ways to approach God within and across faiths can unify and strengthen societal values."

He advocates for making America "religious again," emphasizing that faith can be approached through various religious traditions while appreciating the Torah's universal principles.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Wrapping up the conversation, Gerson reiterates the transformative power of the Torah and offers a final piece of advice for personal improvement:

"[30:00] Mark Gerson: To improve your life, identify a trait you want to develop and actively work on it. Whether it's generosity, kindness, or another characteristic, consistent practice will make it an integral part of who you are."

Carol Markowitz commends Gerson's insights and encourages listeners to explore his book, "God Was Right," underscoring its value as a guide for personal and societal betterment.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Mark Gerson [02:57]: "The Torah offers practical guidance on just about every question we have today."

• Mark Gerson [04:18]: "How we dress influences how we feel and behave."

• Mark Gerson [08:34]: "Studying Torah daily underscores my belief in its endless relevance."

• Mark Gerson [13:59]: "The Torah is the ultimate self-help book for life's every challenge."

• Mark Gerson [25:40]: "Love is cultivated through consistent actions rather than spontaneous feelings."

• Mark Gerson [30:00]: "Identify a trait you want to develop and actively work on it."

Key Takeaways

1. The Torah as a Modern Self-Help Guide: Gerson presents the Torah not just as a religious or historical text but as a timeless guidebook offering psychological and practical insights validated by modern social science.

2. Practical Application of Ancient Wisdom: From dressing to relationship building, biblical teachings provide actionable advice that enhances personal and societal well-being.

3. Intentional Personal Growth: Consistently practicing desired traits can effectively integrate them into one's character, fostering meaningful personal development.

4. Societal Religious Revival: Embracing and rediscovering the Torah's principles can contribute to a broader religious and ethical revival within society, promoting unity and moral integrity.

5. Educational Perspective: The true value of education lies in inspiring mentors, engaging subjects, and meaningful relationships rather than institutional prestige alone.

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For listeners seeking to deepen their understanding of how ancient wisdom intersects with modern life, Mark Gerson's "God Was Right" offers a comprehensive exploration backed by both biblical teachings and contemporary research. This episode serves as an invitation to reconsider traditional texts as dynamic resources for personal and societal growth.

Transcript

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[Carol Markowitz]

Hi welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iheartradio. My guest today is Mark Gerson. Mark is an investor, entrepreneur and Philanthropist and has a fantastic new book out called God Was Right. Hi Mark, so nice to have you on.

[Mark Gerson]

Carol, great to be here. Thank you.

[Carol Markowitz]

So what was God right about? Tell us.

[Mark Gerson]

Well, God was right about everything. And how do we know that? Well, we know that now for the first time in the 21st century, because the Torah, the five books of Moses from Genesis to Deuteronomy, was written several thousand years ago. And what kind of book is the Torah? It's not a history book or a science book or a cookbook, it's a guidebook. And it offers thousands of psychological insights, guidance that means the Bible should not be in the religion section of bookstore, it should be in the self help section of bookstore. So the Bible offers us practical guidance, interesting guidance on just about every question we have today. And what I seek to do when God was right was. I line up the biblical claims on several different subjects, several dozen different subjects, ranging from diversity to antifragility to routine to future orientation. And then I say, here's what the Bible says. Here's what modern social science says. And then what is fascinating is every single claim that the Bible has made or The Bible made 3,000 years ago is now in the 21st century validated by modern social science. So the Bible is right about everything, which makes it the best book ever written and a book worthy of our study and devotion.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's funny because I definitely see it a little bit as a history book and I never thought of it as a self help book. For example, what are some lessons that people should pick up from it?

[Mark Gerson]

Oh yeah, very interesting. No, the Bible, I mean, Moses says in Deuteronomy 29 exactly what it is. He said, this book is written for your benefit. And a book written for your benefit is a self help book. And the Bible addresses in the most practical terms pretty much everything we do. Let's talk about the first thing we do in the morning, which is what clothes should we put on? What should we wear? Well, that's addressed in the Bible. So how is it addressed in the Bible? Well, when God sends Adam out of the Garden of Eden, he sends him out with one thing, garments. Now this is interesting. It would be presumed that Adam would leave with garments. Just like if you said I left my house this morning or I said I left my office. Now, I wouldn't say I left my office with garments. It could be presumed that I did. So, so why is God emphasizing garments? Well, we don't have to go very far in the Torah to find out why, because relatively shortly Thereafter, we have what is quite possibly the most important 20 minutes of Jewish history. And this is because the great aged blind patriarch, Isaac, is about to give the birthright, the imprimatur of Jewish leadership, to one of his twins. The problem? He's giving it to the twin that he loves the most, but who's completely unqualified to lead the Jewish people. This is Esau. So Rebecca, the real hero of the Bible, the real hero of Genesis, has about 20 minutes to change all of history and to assure that her husband is tricked into not giving the birthright to Esau, but instead giving it to Jacob, who, for his deficiencies up to that point, he's still a young man, is much more qualified than Esau to lead the Jewish people. The birthright goes to Esau. Carol, you and I are not here. If it goes to Jacob, we're here. Rebecca has 20 minutes to steer in the right direction. What does she tell Jacob to do? She tells Jacob, put on Esau's best clothes. Put on his best clothes. Why his best clothes? Isaac is blind, so what does it matter what clothes he has on at all? And why his best clothes? Just put in any clothes. Because Rebecca has a profound psychological insight, which is they we feel like what we wear and we perform like how we feel. So in order for Jacob to convince his father that he's Esau, he first has to convince himself. He first has to feel like Esau himself. How can he do that? Rebecca knew the answer. Put on his best clothes. And let's fast forward to the 21st century, where there's abundant social science on clothing. And what do we learn? Well, we see in 2012, there's an experiment of Northwestern University where one cohort of students is given a white coat and told it's a doctor's coat. Another cohort is given the same coat and told it's a painter's coat. And then they're given attention seeking tasks. Those who were told it was a doctor's coat do much better. Fast forward two years to 2014. There's an experiment at Yale which is a negotiation workshop with some real estate negotiation. And one cohort of male students is told, come in suits and tie. The other is told, come however you want. Those who come in suits and tie end up with vastly more profits in the experiment than those who came as they are. So what do we see time and again that we feel like how we dress and we act like how we feel. And there are deeply practical implications to this as well. When people wake up and they're sad or even feeling depressed, what will they normally do? They'll normally put on a pair of sweatpants and something like a baggy sweater. What does that do? It exacerbates the depression. So what we now call fashion psychologists tell people to do it says, put on a floaty dress, put on fun jewelry, put on bright colors. Why? Because fashion psychologists have rediscovered Rebecca's insight, which is that if you want to feel a certain way, dress that way. And then you will feel that way, and then you will be that way.

[Carol Markowitz]

So your wife is a rabbi. Could you have missed your calling to be a rabbi as well?

[Mark Gerson]

I'm the rabbi's husband. I am so blessed to be married to a rabbi and to the particular rabbi to whom I am married. So, no, I love being the rabbi's husband. I'm a businessman, an entrepreneur, and I love business, and I love studying Torah, and I love being married to a rabbi. I'd recommend it to everybody.

[Carol Markowitz]

Only so many rabbis to go around.

[Ryan]

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[Mark Gerson]

So get one when you can.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? But so you have so much going on and you do so many different things. How did you fit a book in or what made you do this?

[Mark Gerson]

Well, I started studying Torah every day about 20 years ago, and I really started it in the study of the Haggadah, which is the guide that leads us through the Passover Seder, which I think is the greatest book word for word, because it's very short ever written. And then what I realized is that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Doesn'T feel that short at the Seder. Let me tell you.

[Mark Gerson]

Yeah, that's another discussion about how one should use the Haggadah, the Seder. That's a good point. But I discovered what the Haggadah really was, which is it's the greatest hits of the Torah, and it's the greatest hits of the Torah because it's the point of the Passover Seder. The Passover is our authentic Jewish New Year, not Rosh Hashanah. It's not even in the Bible. In the Torah, Passover is what the Bible calls the head of months. So I'm ahead of months. We're supposed to use the Haggadah, the greatest hits of the Torah, to review how do we do in the previous year, who am I now, and who do I want to be in the coming year, and how do I become that person? So it was the greatest hits of the Torah. So I found myself studying the Torah every day. And so first thing I do in the morning is I run for six miles on the treadmill and I study the Torah on the treadmill and then I have a Havrusa in Jerusalem and we study after that. And I love the Torah. I study every day and I I found it to be the most interesting, endlessly rich and entirely practical book ever written with lessons and guidance that is as relevant in 2025 as it ever was in the past and will continue to be in the future. And then I realized that modern social scientists, without knowing it, have been asking and answering the same questions that the biblical author did. So that's what God was writes about.

[Carol Markowitz]

We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.

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[Carol Markowitz]

What do you want people to take away from God was right. What's your main kind of goal for for them?

[Mark Gerson]

I want people to take away that the Torah is the greatest self help book ever written. That whenever someone is questioning something, struggling with something, challenged by something, sees an opportunity no matter how big or how small. And I actually have a chapter in the book called no small things about how in the Torah and modern self science we know there's nothing that's small. But no matter what someone's thinking about, no matter what question someone is asking, whether it's what should I wear in the morning? To how much should I give to charity to how should I orient my life in the remaining 30, 40, 50 years, whatever it is, the answer is asked, anticipated and answered in the Torah and what God was right seeks to do is to extract the entirely practical meaning from hundreds, maybe thousands of passages that are really there to guide us through our daily lives.

[Carol Markowitz]

What do you think people misunderstand about the Bible? In our modern world? It seems like we don't spend that much time on it. Most people are not reading it or listening to it on the treadmill. What do we not get?

[Mark Gerson]

I think people get the genre wrong, and the first step in understanding any book is to get the genre right. So if you read a book of science fiction and conclude, oh, it's ridiculous, people can't take a spaceship to Venus, the answer is, you got the genre wrong. It's not a science book, it's a science fiction book. And people get the genre wrong with the Torah. All too often people think it's a history book, and they say, well, this couldn't have happened before that. It's not a history book. The Bible tells us it's not a history book. Vegetation is created before the sun early in Genesis, saying, this is not a history book, it's not a science book. That's another example of why it's not a science book. It's not a cookbook, it's a guidebook. So we have to read the Torah as a guidebook. And the stories in the Torah, the laws in the Torah and everything in the Torah exists, sure, to tell a coherent narrative. That's not the main purpose. The main purpose of the Torah is to help each of us live happier, better and more meaningful lives today. And that's true whenever today is.

[Carol Markowitz]

What do you worry about.

[Mark Gerson]

With regards to the Torah?

[Carol Markowitz]

Anything. What keeps you up?

[Mark Gerson]

Well, there is a chapter in the book on fear. And so what the Torah teaches us about fear. So the Bible tells us, us 85 times more than tells us anything else. Do not fear. Yeah, yeah, 85 times. Which is interesting because the Bible never tells us to do things we would do in the absence of guidance. So the Bible never says, for instance, you shall love your children, because we all do. No one needs to tell us to do it. So it tells us to do things that are unnatural. And, and, and that. And, and so what is it? So, fear. It tells us, do not fear 85 times because we'll naturally fear. The Bible tells us, do not fear. So in the book, what I extract from this biblical instruction, which is really throughout all the books of the Bible, is only fear, immediate things. So if a lion's charging at you, that's a good time to be afraid. It's a quite proper evolutionary response, is to be afraid. Everything Else demote to a concern. And when something is demoted from a fear to a concern, what does that enable us to do? It enables us to think rationally about it and to decide intelligently. So I think, as Lionel Trilling put it, we all have a moral obligation to be intelligent. And governing our fears is probably the first step in that process.

[Carol Markowitz]

Is there a way to reorient society back towards God or towards religion in a way that doesn't involve, say, the government? Do you think that there is any move that we can make as a people to get us back to where we're supposed to be?

[Mark Gerson]

What a great question. Well, there was this kind of awesome thing that happened last year. There was an authentic religious revival in Kentucky. And I think it's a beautiful moment. I think America needs a religious revival. And I think that religious revival can come with a discovery or rediscovery of the Torah and about how entirely practical the Torah is. So I think if people realize just how practical the Torah is, that it's not an anachronistic work of history or ancient anything, but it's entirely modern, contemporary, and totally relevant, people will fall in love with the Torah and they'll seek its guidance. And when they seek its guidance, they'll want to understand its passages and ultimately follow its guidance. And the Torah is clear. There's this fascinating passage where it talks about the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, leading us to ask, why doesn't it just say the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and skip the other two of's? Because what the Torah is telling us is there are different ways to approach God. Abraham had one way, Isaac had another, Jacob had another. And what do we learn from that? That there are different ways to approach God within a faith, and there are different ways in which faiths can approach God. So no matter what faith someone has, approach God through that faith. And I think it would be great to have an American religious revival. I think America is right for it. America is totally suited for it, and I'm all for it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Make America Christian again.

[Mark Gerson]

Make America religious again. Absolutely. And let people discover the beauty and the truth and the eternal and contemporary relevance of the Torah. And whether people come to the Torah through Judaism or Christianity, it's all good.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, absolutely. I usually ask people what their plan B would have been in life. Like when they are, you know, an economist or something. I say, you know what, what else would you might have done? But you seem to have done plans A, B and C. Is there a path you haven't taken that you would maybe regret not taking.

[Mark Gerson]

Well, that's such a good question. Well, America is such a great country for so many reasons and one of the reasons is the amount of opportunities it creates. So I feel very blessed with the opportunities that America's given me, particularly the opportunity to meet and marry my wife. But other things as well. For instance to study the Torah and write about it, to launch businesses and start to co found United HA of Israel and African Mission Healthcare. And I've just been so blessed with these opportunities and I'm just so grateful for the opportunity to have written God Was Right to share the wisdom and the truly contemporary relevance of the Torah. And I just hope people understand that the Torah is it's the best ever self help book and it asks and answers all the questions that anyone has about anything.

[Carol Markowitz]

What advice would you give your 16 year old self?

[Mark Gerson]

Very good question. I'll give a very practical answer. And there's actually a chapter in the book on education and another chapter on the limits of education. So it's really only. The answer's only tangentially related to the book. But the advice I would give to my 16 year old self would be there are only four things you get out of a college experience. Those four things are the professor who inspires you, the subject that captivates you, the friends you make, and the girl or boy you fall in love with. Okay, those are the only four things you can get of a college experience. And those four things exist at hundreds and hundreds of colleges and universities. So I just, I think it's so sad when I see young people and even sadder when I see their parents fixated on the supposed or alleged importance of their child going to one school. When in fact those are the only four things that someone can get out of a college experience. Each four is amazing and, and each four is offered at hundreds and hundreds of places. So I would tell my 16 year old self and 16 year olds now that it's really important to work hard. It's really important to have an ethical core and a moral center. And if you take the ethic of hard work and that moral core and that developing sense of mission, you can take it anywhere. And if you get rejected from this college and that college and 10 others, it doesn't matter. It will not affect your life chances. So go to college, seek a professor that will inspire you, a subject that captivates you, make 10 to 15 good friends and fall in love with a terrific boy or girl and, and you'll Have a great experience.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's funny because I don't even count on two of those. I would really. I just root for my kids to go to college to make a lot of friends and fall in love with somebody, hopefully get married shortly after college. That's sort of the goal for me with the whole college experience. If they happen to have an inspiring professor or to learn something along the way, that'll be like, complete bonus.

[Mark Gerson]

Well, I mean, if you look at the course catalogs of these colleges now, of course there's a lot of nonsense in these course catalogs, but there's a lot of really good stuff, too. And so students can learn, and they're. I mean, what a great opportunity to be given these years when all that's expected of you is to learn, to make friends and to grow. It's just an incredible opportunity.

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly.

[Mark Gerson]

And I love what you said, Carol, about getting married young because I have a chapter in the book on the biblical formula for love and marriage. And what are they saying? Yeah. Derives from the story of Isaac and Rebekah, how they decided to marry each other and the logic of how they decided to marry each other and how they came to have the happiest marriage in the Bible. That logic leads to early marriage.

[Carol Markowitz]

So what is it? Give us the. Give us the hint.

[Mark Gerson]

Yeah. Okay. So Eliezer, who's Abraham? So Abraham sends his servant Eliezer to go find a wife for Isaac. And he says to Eliezer, go to Haran. Why Haran? Because Abraham, years before, had made souls in Haran. So it was a place where. Whatever making souls means, it was a place where souls could be cultivated. So he says, go to Haran. Eliezer goes to Haran and he sees a young woman approaching, and he says she was very. The text tells us she was very fair to look upon. And we know one other thing about her, which is she's exceedingly generous. She brings water for Eliezer and all of his camels, an estimated like dozens and dozens of trips of water. So Eliezer knows three and only three things about this woman who is Rebecca. One is that she's from Haran. Two, she's very fair to look upon. And three, she's ridiculously generous. On the basis of those three and only three characteristics. He says, she's the woman for my man Isaac. And then Rebekah is given the opportunity herself. Do you want to go with Eliezer and marry Isaac? And by the way, people who say the Bible is sexist, they don't understand the Bible. They don't know what they're reading. This is one of many examples, several which I cover in the book of how the Bible is the great work of female empowerment. Rebecca is given the choice herself. Do I marry the guy or do I not marry the guy? She only knows two things about the guy. One is that Isaac is rich, so he's a good provider. And two, that he loves God. She says, yes, I will marry him. And then the text tells us in Genesis 24:67 he married her, she became his wife and he loved her. And the order of things in the Bible is always important. So what does the Bible tell us? First, identify two or maybe three characteristics in the other person and whether she likes warmer cold weather vacations or whether his friends are funny or not. Two of them. Identify two or three genuinely important characteristics, then just get married. Don't think too much about it, just get married. Once those two or three boxes are checked, then start doing spouse like things. So he married her, she became his wife. Must be two different things because they're listed separately. So he married her, then she became his wife. What does it mean to become a wife or a husband? Probably iterate acts of giving, right? And then love follows. In modern culture we have it the other way around.

[Carol Markowitz]

We have this absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Gerson]

We have this ridiculous notion of falling in love. You don't fall in love. You might fall on your face or fall on the ground, but you cultivate love. You don't fall into it, you cultivate it. It's quite the opposite. That's what the Bible tells us. Identify two or three characteristics, get married, start doing spouse like things and then you will experience a love that will last forever.

[Carol Markowitz]

I hope that teens listening can take these lessons, but I think that might be a hard sell for some of them.

[Mark Gerson]

Well, the Bible says it, but then modern social science totally validates it, is that every alternative to that very simple and clear biblical formula has proven to be a catastrophe. And I have the data in the book on how all of the alternatives have failed. In the data, living together, bad idea. Serial dating, one boyfriend, girlfriend after the Next into one's 30s or even later leads to unhappiness in all kinds of very specific ways. And I have a whole chapter in the book on that.

[Carol Markowitz]

We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.

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[Mark Gerson]

Lenovo.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, I've loved this conversation and I think your book is just fantastic. You are just such an interesting person. Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.

[Mark Gerson]

What a great point. I think the best tip on how you can improve your life, it's right there in the Bible. It's identify a characteristic that you want to add to your personality or your character. So identify it right now. So let's say someone says, I wish I was more giving, I wish I was more generous, I wish I was kinder. Whatever it is, identify one characteristic of growth and of change. Then the Bible tells us again, totally validated by modern social science, how to develop that characteristic. Just start doing the thing. In other words, fake it till you make it. So if you say I wish I was more giving, you don't have to plunge the depths of your soul to figure out why you're not giving as much charity as you want. Give a little more tomorrow than you did today. Give a little more Wednesday than Tuesday and keep going. And what the Bible tells us and modern social science confirms, it takes about three months before that characteristic becomes a part of you. So I would say just identify that characteristic that you want to become part of you, that you want to grow into and grow with and then just start doing the thing. And then whatever that thing is, whatever that characteristic is, it will become part of who you are.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, I love that. Do the thing. He is Mark Gerson. His book is God was Right. Pick it up anywhere books are sold. Thank you so much, Mark.

[Mark Gerson]

Thank you Carol. Such a great conversation. Really appreciate it.

[Ryan]

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[Mark Gerson]

May vary based on source content.

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[Mark Gerson]

This is an I Heart podcast.