← The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
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- [00:00]
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- [01:09]
Steve Yates
Welcome to Nation States with Yates. We hope to be your national security advisor to help you navigate the tricky issues around the world, where news comes fast and world comes fast at the White House and to your house. And we're here to serve as your guide for making sense of it all, hopefully in Main street common sense, so that you kind of have a front row seat at what's going on at the presidential level. But why it matters in our everyday way of life. Well, in our last conversation we were talking about the summit that President Trump engaged in with the leader of China. Today in episode number four, we want to get a little bit into the meat of what is Taiwan and how did it come to be somewhat central in the conversation between President Trump and the leader of China, Xi Jinping? So we'll take a deeper dive conversation into some of the history about Taiwan. We're not going to be able to cover everything, that's for sure, but we're going to have several conversations over the course of this journey with Nation states with Yates that we'll touch on this because it's a key test of American power, American alliance and partner relationships, extended deterrence so that problems don't come to the United States homeland and have to be dealt with here. But we've got some homework out of the presidential summit that is going to need to be followed up on in the months and years ahead. And so today we'll have an opening chapter of a conversation about what is this island nation of Taiwan? Why does China have a claim over it? Why is this nation such a challenge to China? And what should some of the opportunities for America be in supporting Taiwan and continued investment from Taiwan in the American way of life? So there's a bit of a tease for what we want to try to cover in this episode of Nation States with Yates. We'll take a short break and jump back with us in the meat of our conversation today about Taiwan.
- [03:09]
Jacob Goldstein
Thank you.
- [03:10]
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- [03:40]
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- [04:10]
Steve Yates
That's innerbalance.com welcome back to Nation States with Yates. This is episode four and we're going to take a deep dive into Taiwan. Big topic. It's been in the headlines. We want to get through the headlines and share with you a little bit of background and experience, hopefully give you a feel for why this island matters to everyday Americans, why the Chinese are so bent out of shape about that island. And why in the world would this become central to the summit that President Trump had with China's leader Xi Jinping, when they seem to have bigger fish to fry? So let's start at the beginning with a little bit of history on the relationship that Taiwan has with broader China. Now, many of you may have heard of Taiwan. If you're like me and you were of a certain age and you were growing up, say, in the 70s and 80s, you might have still had a lot of things that had a tag on it that said Made in Taiwan. And those would have been anything from footwear to the clothing that you had to little gadgets. There was in the earlier generation a lot of things that would say made in Japan. Then it sort of moved to Made in Taiwan and what we called the Asian tigers, whether it was Thailand or Vietnam, to a degree, different ways. And we had the rise of these Asian economies that had small and medium enterprises that were building themselves into a vital role in global supply chains. They were friends and allies of the United States, with whom we had defense relations in many instances. So during the Cold War, the United States had formal diplomatic relations with the Republic of China. That is the constitutional name of the government that now governs Taiwan itself. But Taiwan is actually an island that is about 100 miles offshore from mainland China. For most of the history of the island, it has actually had no relationship with any of the powers on the mainland. There are some exceptions to that. One of the exceptions is during a Chinese dynasty, they sent a protectorate to claim control over the island of Taiwan. They didn't actually sort of impose a rule or build up the economy. It was seen as sort of an island of those who had fled other areas. There was an indigenous population, several different aboriginal tribes. If you ever have the opportunity to visit Taiwan, you might enjoy going to the Aboriginal Museum or go to some of the aboriginal areas to see some of their dance and culture. You'll be surprised when you look at it, because in some ways, it's awfully similar to the Aleutian Indians, natives of Alaska, the Native Americans, the Indian tribes on North America that we had studied in our own histories still have some of that traditional headdress dance, some of the clothing. It would be more reminiscent of what you would expect in continental Native American culture, maybe Polynesian culture. Not what you would think of coming from China. Well, that's what China claims was an inalienable part of their nation. At this point, when I say China, I'm talking about the People's Republic of China. So the first part of trying to understand Taiwan is, is that Taiwan is an island. It's a geography, not a country. The Republic of China is the constitutional name of a government that runs that island and some offshore islands around the island of Taiwan, including a couple of offshore islands that are a mere stone's throw from the mainland of China, of Jinmen and Mazu Kamoy. Or mazu. If you go back to the 1950s history. When there was exchange of artillery. That brought the US And China to the brink of potential conflict among nuclear powers at the time. Those are the geographic definitions of what people think of by way of Taiwan. But culturally, Taiwan is much richer than the story of mainland China. And in truth, you go through the multiple centuries of Chinese dynasties. Going back multiple thousands of years. Not as many as they like to say, but. But at least 2 to 3,000 years of Chinese dynasties. Very few years in all of those thousands has the island of Taiwan had any meaningful role. Being integrated into the government of all of China. Now, of course, also in that history, the governments that were in control of mainland China splintered. There were north and south dynasties. There were times when there were three or more kingdoms contending on the mainland. And there are also times when foreign powers would go and land in Taiwan. And carve out effective governance of key ports and portions of Taiwan. The Portuguese came. The Spanish came. There were times when the Japanese came. Japanese fought the Sino Japanese War in the late 1800s. And in 1895, the Japanese won. And part of that concession in defeating China at the time. Was taking the island of Taiwan in perpetuity under Japanese control. And from 1895 until after the end of World War II, Taiwan was officially a colony of Japan. The national language of Taiwan was Japanese. The infrastructure of Taiwan in terms of education, government buildings. And the physical infrastructure of Taiwan was built out as after the Japanese model. And actually During World War II, it was part of the Empire of Japan in fighting against the United States and others. But their Taiwanese experience being occupied by Japan was not as hostile and contentious. As was the experience of some other parts of Asia. Notably, the Korean experience was not pleasant. The mainland Chinese experience was not that pleasant during World War II under Japanese attack. And some of our Southeast Asian allies had unfavorable views. But for Taiwan, they were among those that felt like they benefited under the Japanese period more than they suffered. And so among the native populations of Taiwan, whether it's aboriginal tribes or those that had come from other parts of China over the centuries, they didn't have bad feelings about Japan, as the rest of China and the rest of Asia may have in the wake of World War II. But after World War II, there was a civil war that broke out on mainland China. Between the Republic of China government that was over all of what was then considered China at that time. And the Communist upstart that was declaring a revolution. Now, part of that revolution was to fight against all the olds, all the traditions, whether that was what they called feudalism with Confucianism, whether it was fighting against all the government structures, what they were doing is they were conducting an insurgency that was bleeding the Republic of China nationalist government dry. Ultimately, the Communists, as you know, you've seen this movie, they did win that civil war. They took control of mainland China. They did not at the time take control of Hong Kong. And, and they did not take control of Taiwan. Later in this story, Hong Kong would fall because the British relented and ceded sovereignty back to China. In 1997, they had the island of Hong Kong ceded to them in perpetuity, which means forever. But the new territories and the resources for water and otherwise that that island would need to survive were on a lease that was expiring. And the Chinese did not renew that lease. And the British decided not to fight over that and turned the territory over to PRC control. Well, that was a blow to what had been China's offering to Taiwan that they would be given a high degree of autonomy. They could be a part of one China, but have a separate system. It was called one country, two systems, and it would be following on the promise made to Hong Kong. But after taking Hong Kong, then the promised autonomy of Hong Kong began to shrink to the point of street demonstrations fighting against a national security law that was aimed at controlling political discourse, elements of free speech and freedom of association. The promise of direct democratic elections was significantly curtailed and eventually the. The major independent media of Hong Kong was shut down. And we now have the world's most famous Catholic prisoner in the territory of Hong Kong. Now in the People's Republic of China, my friend Jimmy Lai, who was mentioned by President Trump at this summit. So back to Taiwan. What this means is the promise that the mainland China had tried to make of some form of union. They say reunification, but if you haven't been a part of something, you can't be reunified. They say unification. Well, the people of Taiwan having seen the People's Republic of China become more of a surveillance state after the people of Taiwan and their businesses invested billions, if not trillions of dollars into the development on mainland China. Manufacturing, a ton of things, moving a lot of their best industries, the aforementioned shoes and clothing and other kinds of enterprises. These were largely Taiwanese entities that moved across the strait into China. And the Taiwanese companies, happily invested, profited for a time, but then the thanks they got was being driven out of the Chinese market. And now only a small percentage of Taiwan's outbound investment goes To China, not about 10 years ago, it would have been somewhere around 75% to 80% of Taiwan's outbound investment would go to mainland China, not to be consumed by Chinese people, but to go out to the broader world, including the United States, by way of exports from Taiwan and investment from Taiwan to China and then back into our markets. Well, that has changed significantly with China cracking down on those Taiwanese businesses, creating exact competitors to drive them away, and then the stepping on Hong Kong as the one country, two systems model fell apart. There's very little incentive for the people of Taiwan to want to be a part of a union with the People's Republic of China under its current leadership. Similarly, the Chinese, in their infinite wisdom, have increased a lot of military pressure against Taiwan. They have engaged in exercises that look like embargo demonstrations where they would encircle Taiwan. They have encroached upon Taiwan's airspace and maritime space at sea to try to demonstrate that they could block Taiwan's ports. Taiwan per capita, is one of the wealthier countries in the world, if people would consider it a country. Its stock market is valued in at a level that is greater than the. The. Than the stock market in Great Britain at this point. The Taiwan industries that are leading the world are, of course, in tech, but not only in tech. They have some food industries and some other kinds of manufacturing that are quite competitive and good in manufacturing parts that go to industries that are not just in the big computing game of the world. But of course, the brand name people probably have heard most about is Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing corporation tsmc. And they have invested billions of dollars in the United States to manufacture here. But the core of their operation is on the island of Taiwan proper. And that adds a tremendous amount to the gross domestic product of Taiwan, making it per capita much, much more wealthy than China is. And to a degree, I think that's why China sees us as so sensitive. Here you have 23 million people relative to over a billion people. The 23 million people live in much greater freedom and representative government competitive democracy with balances and checks in their government, checks in the courts, checks between the legislature and the executive branch. And yet you have largely happy, healthy and safe population. And it is charging ahead with a successful economy even in the shadow of the threat that comes from the People's Republic of China. Well, that's a pretty toxic example if you are the top communist in China and you're trying to say that you're the way of the future and people should just bend to your emperor's Wish, come to meet with me in my great hall, in my secret enclave and I'll show you some old trees and talk about how old China is. But you should bring your opportunity to us and do business with us. While we are not engaging in this freedom experiment, we are not reforming and opening up. We are increasingly competing with you in a way that might actually be a challenge to, for your way of life. Well, Taiwan is a very powerful example that an alternative is available not just for the Chinese people. That's bad enough for the government of Beijing, but for the world and increasingly with our treaty allies. The government of Japan is increasing its collaboration and cooperation with Taiwan across a host of sectors as well they should, since the Taiwanese people have a natural goodwill towards the people of Japan and, and they have common interests in freedom of navigation, protection of the technology that our countries are developing together, and making sure that if we're going to establish a new world that is run on artificial intelligence, a race to space, an enduring model for high tech export and development for our countries and our societies, well, we should do that with open, transparent and responsible partners. And Taiwan is proving to be a vital one of those, not just for the United States, but for Japan, for Korea, for parts of Europe, for parts of the broader Middle East. In many ways, we don't have a good feel for how much Taiwan is already a part of our way of life because like Japan, they've done it in a peaceful and competitive way that has been good, broadly speaking, for American families, for American communities and for the American economy. There's more to grow in, in terms of making that economic relationship better. But by and large, when it comes to defense, Taiwan buys defense articles from us. They don't take them as aid. And we have withheld some of the aid that they need or some of the defense capabilities they need because we don't want to tip the sensitivities of the Chinese for a broader conflict. But I think that one of the better things the administration has done is, is to urge our allies and partners to have more of their own deterrent so that they aren't overly dependent on the United States and take risks with our material assistance or with the beautiful men and women of our military. But I think that the Taiwan has stepped up to that challenge and we should not then, in the wake of sitting down with the leader of China, say, well, how about we hold back on some of those defense articles that you want to buy from us? I think President Trump ought to get into the mode of being the greatest salesman for American manufacturing excellence and military excellence. And go ahead and let the Taiwanese people buy what they think they need to deter the challenge that comes from China. Let's extend this cold peace and make sure it doesn't become a hot conflict by allowing Taiwan to be able to do more for itself, not just in its economy, not just with greater breathing space to deal with the normal parts of the world, but also in this critical area of civil defense and military defense, so that China doesn't feel like it has an option, much less some kind of a compelling argument to move against Taiwan in a dangerous way. If, heaven forbid, China were to hit Taiwan with a missile or try to impose a blockade, we would have an immediate crash in global markets, the likes we have never seen since the great crash of 1929. We should seek to avoid that by peace through strength, not just for America, but for our committed partners. And if we do that, and if President Trump keeps us on that trajectory, I think the people of Taiwan will thrive for their own sake. But I think that we will also thrive in that bargain because China can focus instead on economic development instead of trying to change the status quo, as people like to say in the greater Indo Pacific region. That, I think, matters to American households because we want the smart goods that come into our life to continue to move in and make our lives easier, more convenient at affordable prices. We want these reliable partners, especially Taiwan, but also Japan, Korea, Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, whole host of countries in that part of the world to buy America, invest in America, and that is a good, safe bridge to the future for making America strong, but also giving China the right signals for incentives. Don't test us militarily. We're not a falling civilization or falling empire. Honor what you say you believe in, in being a great civilization and be a good neighbor to the people of Taiwan. And if you do that well, why wouldn't they want to be a part of the model that you're building out? And of course, if you're not willing to do that, then they have every reason to be reluctant and we have every reason to help them preserve the good that they have achieved so far in their ongoing experiment in democracy and, and building out a strong export oriented economy in Taiwan. So there's a little bit of a down payment on a conversation about Taiwan. I had the pleasure of taking my good friend Buck Sexton to Taiwan last year. And so it's of course appropriate that we do a little bit of a Taiwan conversation from time to time in thanks for Buck in making that trip and interviewing President Lai of Taiwan, one of the last outtakes of the summit conversation from from President Trump's trip to China. He said on the plane that maybe he would talk to the leader of Taiwan about the arms deals that are in waiting. Well, I think President Trump should just be Trump. And if he wants to talk to a leader anywhere in the world, he should go ahead and talk to them and not be held back by whatever China says in that regard. That I think would have been an interesting and constructive outcome of the summit. But with that, we're going to continue to talk about Taiwan from time to time because we think, I think it's important, but also interesting and a good thing in America's way of life. Hopefully you've enjoyed this conversation. We're going to take a break from the meat of it and I'll come back after the break to share some parting thoughts and a tease for our next conversation.
- [24:37]
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- [25:06]
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- [25:39]
Steve Yates
Welcome back to Nation States with Yates. Thank you very much for joining us for our focused conversation today on Taiwan. Now, I talked about this as being a deep dive. This is, of course, because of the tyranny of time, not as deep as we could go. We're going to have more conversations about Taiwan as our series continues. But hopefully today you got a good sampling of some of the thinking behind what's driving the headlines. Why Taiwan matters in American policymaking, why Taiwan matters in our economic way of life, why Taiwan matters in our frankly to the Chinese Communist Party and why they seem so sensitive about this when there are over a billion people. What are they worried about 23 million people for? Well, it's because the people on Taiwan have been amazingly productive and they have put themselves right in the middle of the most important supply chains for the entire world, including for China. And that's a bit of a sensitive issue for China. And Taiwan being an example of completely free and I would say even wild and woolly politics in free and democratic society. I've been blessed to know every president elected president of Taiwan. And I have seen some of these elections fought down to the wire. There was an election in 2004 where one of the candidates was actually shot in the closing times of the election. Not a fatal wound and he ended up getting reelected, but just a further demonstration that Taiwan can be a little bit of the wild west, so to speak, when it comes to politics. Mostly peaceful, mostly just competitive and sort of the usual mudslinging between political parties and candidates and all for the good in trying to represent the fair minded and dear people of the experiment known as Taiwan. But hopefully you've enjoyed some of the teasers of the big pieces of this. Whether it's the contending claims of was Taiwan always a part of China? And the answer is absolutely no. And is Taiwan a part of the People's Republic of China? No, it's not now and never has been. Does the People's Republic of China want the world to think Taiwan is already a part of it and it belongs to them? Yes, it does. And so we will make a down payment on your common sense and wisdom to layer upon layer, understand a little bit better what the history, the truth and the realities are now, so that you see the value in continuing the special relationship the people of America have had with the people of Taiwan, in extending freedom but also extending economic development for both of us. And hopefully you see, like I do, there's a lot of good that comes in this relationship for American national interests, for long standing relationships we have in the first island chain in the Indo Pacific region, and that that project is going in the right direction, that President Trump is investing in success in that part of the world and that investment should continue. That's a good thing for the friends of freedom in the world. Taiwan's right in the middle of that conversation. Not the only part, maybe not even the most important part, but it is an important, important part of that strategy and those benefits for the United States of America. And with that, hopefully you've enjoyed this conversation. Let us know what other kinds of topics you would like to cover as we continue our relationship of serving as your personal national security advisor here at Nation States with Yates. In our next episode, we're going to take a look at what is the prudent use of American power. We're going to look at some some of the hotspots that have been in the headlines and the different approach the Trump administration has taken to addressing some of these issues. We'll look at Ukraine, we'll look at Israel, Gaza, we'll look at Iran, we'll look at Venezuela and Cuba. Things where things might be a little bit in flux. And what do you think the prudent use of American power is? This is actually a big topic, but there is a much deeper investment being made in this conversation in the Trump administration than many of its critics would be willing to give it credit for. And so we're going to talk a little bit about what that prudent use of American power ought to be in this new age of realism in American foreign policy. So with that, I invite you to please, like subscribe and share with your friends. Nation States with Yates. Download the iHeartRadio app and do all the good things in staying in touch with us. Until next time, I'm your host Steve Yates, here at Nation States with Yates. Look forward to talking to you the next episode.
- [30:25]
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- [30:55]
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- [32:01]
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