Normally Podcast: Anti-ICE Church Protest Sparks First Amendment Outrage, Media Spin & Virginia Politics

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Normally Podcast: Anti-ICE Church Protest Sparks First Amendment Outrage, Media Spin & Virginia Politics

Date: January 20, 2026
Hosts: Mary Katharine Ham (A) & Carol Markowitz (B)
Producer: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the recent anti-ICE protest that disrupted a church service in St. Paul, exploring its legal and cultural implications. The hosts delve deeply into First Amendment boundaries, media spin (with a spotlight on Don Lemon’s controversial involvement), and political ramifications both locally in Virginia and nationwide. They also touch on Kamala Harris's political authenticity and what’s trending in today's literacy culture, sprinkling humor and pointed commentary throughout.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Anti-ICE Protest at St. Paul Church: Outrage and Legal Boundaries

• The Incident: Protesters, including Don Lemon, invaded a St. Paul church, disrupted worship, and called out the pastor for not supporting their cause.
• Legal Analysis:
  • The hosts stress that the protest was not protected under the First Amendment, as it violated the congregation’s right to peaceable assembly and worship ([02:44]).
  • Quote: “What they believe is that they are operating under the First Amendment, and in fact, they are not. They are violating the First Amendment rights of the people in the congregation to gather peaceably in worship.” – Mary Katharine ([02:44])
  • Likely legal repercussions under the FACE Act, designed to prevent obstruction at places of worship and clinics ([03:10]).
• Media Critique:
  • The press is unlikely to cover the story unless arrests provoke further outrage ([03:49]).

2. Don Lemon’s Involvement and Media Spin

• Career Trajectory: The hosts express incredulity over Don Lemon’s fall from a CNN anchor to live-streaming church invasions ([06:16]–[06:58]).
• Holding Media Accountable: Don Lemon’s claim of “just being a journalist” is openly criticized—hosts argue that the media must face legal consequences when breaking the law, echoing January 6th debates ([05:41]).
  • Quote: "When you break the law as a journalist, when you invade a church during their service and stop them from praying, you should be held accountable." – Carol Markowitz ([05:41])

3. Escalation and Backlash: Left-Wing Protest Tactics

• Norm Violations: Discussion about the left pushing protest boundaries past legality, then feigning outrage when held accountable ([04:37]–[05:41]).
• Potential Political Fallout:
  • The incident risks galvanizing opposition and energizing conservative voters, especially if footage circulates widely ([08:32]).
  • Quote: “Going back to brunch gets to normies, by the way, it was brunch before. They've escalated to church. You can't even have church anymore.” – Mary Katharine ([08:32])

4. Key Clip: The Pastor Responds (Don Lemon Interview)

• Audio Playback: The pastor maintains composure, explaining the church’s purpose—worship of Jesus—but notes the aggressiveness of the protest ([09:02]–[09:53]).
  • Quote: “We're here to worship Jesus because that's the hope of these cities. That's the hope of the world.” – Pastor ([09:02])
• Hosts’ Commentary: Mocking Don Lemon’s “flopping” when touched by the pastor (“Don’t push me!”); likening his behavior to “Italian soccer stars” ([10:17]–[10:24]).

5. Political Environment in Minneapolis and Virginia

• Minneapolis Reactions: Discussion about local officials being pressured to take extreme anti-ICE stances ([11:01]), with skepticism from law enforcement.
• Virginia Politics: With Democrats gaining full control, the hosts predict progressive reforms (tax increases, bans on gas-powered leaf blowers, reversal of ICE cooperation) and express personal frustration over rising taxes ([13:27]–[16:26]).
  • Quote: “Investments leaving Virginia… Affordability, Carol, it feels great.” – Mary Katharine ([16:04])
  • Contrast drawn between policies in Virginia (“onslaught is going to be pretty serious”) and tax reductions in Florida ([15:39]–[16:26]).

6. Kamala Harris and Authenticity: Backstage vs. Public Persona

• Kara Swisher Anecdote: Story of Kamala laughing backstage about RFK Jr., only to become solemn and performative on stage ([17:14]–[17:55]).
  • Quote: “She was one person behind the scenes and another person in front of an audience. It was obvious. It never worked.” – Carol Markowitz ([18:19])
• Political Vetting: Governor Josh Shapiro describes being grilled over finances and Israeli connections during VP vetting, ultimately feeling pushed out for being “too poor” and Jewish ([19:09]–[22:39]).
  • Quote: “Are you aware of the definition of undercover?” – Mary Katharine, mocking the vetting question ([22:14])

7. Feel-Good Segment: Reading Influencers and Literacy

• YouTuber Kai Cenat Goes Viral: Clips of him struggling with and learning new vocabulary from “Atomic Habits” ([24:11]–[25:34]).
  • Quote: “Spontaneity of life… What does that mean?” – Kai Cenat ([24:11])
• Cultural Trend: Praise for influencers who champion reading/self-improvement. The hosts highlight other literacy success stories, celebrating social media’s role in spreading positive habits ([26:20]–[27:31]).
  • Quote: “Anybody mocking somebody trying to better themselves… is no friend of mine.” – Carol Markowitz ([27:31])

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• Mary Katharine Ham on protest legality:
  “What they believe is that they are operating under the First Amendment, and in fact, they are not. They are violating the First Amendment rights of the people in the congregation to gather peaceably in worship.” ([02:44])

• Carol Markowitz on media hypocrisy:
  “When you break the law as a journalist, when you invade a church during their service and stop them from praying, you should be held accountable.” ([05:41])

• Mary Katharine Ham on escalation:
  “Going back to brunch gets to normies, by the way, it was brunch before. They've escalated to church. You can't even have church anymore.” ([08:32])

• Pastor’s plea:
  “We're here to worship Jesus because that's the hope of these cities. That's the hope of the world.” ([09:02])

• Carol Markowitz on Kamala Harris’s authenticity:
  “She was one person behind the scenes and another person in front of an audience. It was obvious. It never worked.” ([18:19])

• Carol Markowitz on learning:
  “Anybody mocking somebody trying to better themselves at whatever age… is no friend of mine.” ([27:31])

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Important Timestamps

• [01:16] — Description of the church protest incident
• [02:44] — First Amendment discussion and legal analysis
• [03:10] — Explanation of the FACE Act
• [06:16]–[06:58] — Don Lemon’s career discussed
• [08:32] — Comparison to prior protest escalations
• [09:02] — Pastor’s response in Don Lemon interview
• [11:01] — Minneapolis politics and ICE protest pressures
• [13:24]–[16:26] — Virginia’s political shift and policies
• [17:14]–[17:55] — Kara Swisher’s Kamala Harris anecdote
• [19:09]–[22:39] — Josh Shapiro VP vetting story
• [24:11] — Kai Cenat’s viral vocabulary moment
• [26:20]–[27:31] — Broader discussion on reading and literacy influencers

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By blending analysis, personal anecdotes, and sharp commentary, Mary Katharine and Carol deliver an episode that entertains while providing clear-eyed perspectives on protest culture, media accountability, and the evolving American political landscape. Listeners come away with fresh insights and a dose of optimism thanks to an uplifting look at self-improvement trends.

Transcript

[A]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, guys. We are back on normally, the show where the normalish takes for when the news gets weird. I am Mary Kathleen.

[B]

And I'm Carol Markowitz. You know, I'm noticing I'm, like, in a heavy hoodie and you are in a tank top, and you live in Virginia and I live in Florida.

[A]

You know what? It is very cold right now, but perhaps I have just become, like, more northern, I guess, since I've been here. No, it's. It's warm in my room, so here I am.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's what it is. We end up, like, either heating or cooling our houses to the temperature that we like them.

[A]

And.

[B]

Yeah, so this is.

[A]

Yeah, because Barack Obama's not president to tell me not to. So, yeah, we can do whatever we want.

[B]

Al Gore, although Al Gore, of course, famously, his house had like, the largest carbon footprint of any house in the area because he did whatever he wanted while telling us not to.

[A]

It's for all of you to fix the problem, not him.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

He's just going to speak and get a million dollars about the problem.

[B]

All right, let's get into it. It is Martin Luther King Day. Our kids are home from school. We're just going to have to roll with this.

[A]

Indeed. We'll see who sneaks in.

[B]

Oh, yeah. All right. So there was a protest over the weekend at a Church in St. Paul, and it is one of the most vile things I have seen in some time. A group of protesters, anti ICE protesters, invaded a church in St. Paul. They yelled at the congregants. They shamed the pastor for not standing with them and not letting them just run rampant in his church. And Don Lemon was there for all of it because he is part of their group. When he got to the protest, he kisses the main protester lady hello and proceeds to interview her about her amazing work of going to various police officers houses and. And harassing them there. And he's just interviewing her and nodding along with all of it.

[A]

It was.

[B]

I truly, I can't imagine that most Americans watching this aren't going to be as disgusted as I am. And I hope that there are arrests. I'm very much not. You know, I. At no point was I a lock her up Chanter in 2016 or any of it. I, in general, in general, don't think that arresting your political opponents is a great idea. But this is not acceptable. And this is so across the line that liberals need to understand that.

[A]

Well, yeah, it is against the law. Right.

[B]

It is against the law. Correct.

[A]

What they believe is that they are operating under the First Amendment, and in fact, they are not. They are violating the First Amendment rights of the people in the congregation to gather peaceably in worship. Now, the ostensible reason for this is that the pastor is in some way is named in some lawsuit about ICE because he's like a director of a. Of a field office or something. Yeah. Doesn't matter.

[B]

Doesn't at all.

[A]

Doesn't matter.

[B]

What's funny about this. Sorry, I was going to say, just for the arrest part. If they do get arrested, it's likely going to be under the Face act, which is the Freedom of Access to Clinic entrances Act of 1994, a US federal law making it illegal to use force, threats, or physical obstruction to prevent people from obtaining or providing reproductive health services or exercising religious freedom at places of worship. It's going to be some level of irony that the same law that doesn't allow protesters to invade, say, a Planned Parenthood location is going to be the law that gets the people that protested inside this church.

[A]

Now, here's the thing, Carol, is that you're right. People who see this will be appalled. People will not see it largely. People who are not deeply engaged in politics will not see it. The press is not going to cover this. In fact, I think the only way the press will cover it, which could come back to bite them, is if they cover that people are being rightly arrested or prosecuted or fined or something for this behavior, because you are not allowed to roll up in a church, take it over, and ruin their service. These poor worshipers are just walking out the door like, I guess we're done now. And then Lemon actually interviewed. We're gonna play a clip of him, but he interviewed another guy who was. Just. Wouldn't have the gaslighting and was like, what good have you done here?

[B]

Right.

[A]

What good have you done here? None. And that's. This is just so characteristic of the left, is that they will, in this case, as they do in many. They will push the boundaries, Push the boundaries, push the boundaries, do things that are flatly illegal. And then when someone says, you could be in trouble for this. We're gonna get you in trouble for this. They go, oh, my.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

The norms are being violated.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

The norms aren't being violated. You violated the norms.

[B]

You did. Yeah.

[A]

And then you paid the price for doing so. And this is the theme of our discussions of all these Minneapolis protests, is once you have pushed the boundary. Pushed the boundary, pushed the boundary Every interaction with law enforcement becomes exactly more pitched, becomes there's a greater chance of someone making a mistake or having to defend themselves against real threats. So this all just sort of gets really pitched, and you can't pretend as if you have done nothing to create the environment in which you're operating, which is obviously what happened here.

[B]

That's right. So what's interesting about Don Lemon, and we'll get to that clip in a second, is that he's going to say, I'm a journalist, and I am just covering this as a journalist. That didn't work for people who said they were journalists on January 6th. And I don't think it's going to work here, because when you break the law as a journalist, when you invade a church during their service and stop them from praying, you should be held accountable. And I think Don Lemon absolutely should be here with all the protesters that were there that day.

[A]

What a career arc this guy is on.

[B]

My God.

[A]

Like, they get. He had a. He had a primetime show. I guess it was late night, but PrimeTime show at CNN, and then he. Which was famously off the rails, and then they give him a morning show, which Don Lemon is not A morning.

[B]

Did not work at all. Yep. He's abrasive and hateful, and he has a morning show. Sunny Mornings. Yeah.

[A]

And he was, like, nasty and bullying and at times misogynist to his two female co hosts, Poppy Harlow and Kaitlan Collins. And then he almost started a show on X with some sweetheart deal with Elon, but because he was unwilling to even, like, see it for one interview that didn't work out. And here we are, live streaming invasions of churches in Minneapolis.

[B]

Oh, Don Lemon, what you could have been.

[A]

I mean, look, he was always irresponsible on air, and this is just a. Another example of it. Yeah, I. I do think this is the kind of situation where, look, the Renee Good shooting incident, a lot of people saw video of that, and a lot of people differ from us and came to the conclusion that this is. This is just horrible. I'm not giving benefit of the doubt to the officer feeling concerned for his life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think once a vehicle is coming at you, you can make that decision.

[B]

Agree completely.

[A]

And you shouldn't be coming at an officer whether you intend to hit him or not.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But people saw that and made a different conclusion. I think reasonable people can disagree about that. No one's going to see this video of the left basically taking what could be a political win because the. The numbers on immigration enforcement and Trump have Changed. This constitutes the best way they know how to screw that up as a political advantage. Because this kind of thing, people do not take kindly to. There's also a video of them ironically pulling over citizens and asking them who they are because they think their vehicles sort of look like ice. You don't have the right to do that. Unlike ice, you have no right to do that. And then there's one of a couple tech bros inside a cafe getting accosted by people because they just looked like, I guess, non white dudes.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I thought racial profiling was wrong. Mary Katherine. Was I mistaken about that?

[A]

Apparently it's okay. But if those. If those kind of videos do break through and you have a Minneapolis 2020 feeling or a D.C. you're outdoors dining and you have to raise your fist feeling. Going back to brunch gets to normies, by the way, it was brunch before. They've escalated to church. You can't even have church anymore.

[B]

No going back to church.

[A]

That this could turn what would otherwise be a political turn in their favor against them. If it gets some sort of play.

[B]

Let's roll that Don Lemon clip. Let's see what this man has to say.

[C]

I mean, this is unacceptable. It's shameful. It's shameful to. To interrupt a public gathering of Christians in worship. But there were folks who said, I have to take care of my flock. Listen, we live in. There's a constitution in the First Amendment to freedom of speech and freedom to assemble and protest. We're here to worship. We're here to worship Jesus because that's the hope of these cities. That's the hope of the world is Jesus Christ. I'm gonna be very respectful. Please don't push me, though. We're here. We're here to worship Jesus. That's why we're here. Okay. That's why we're here. That's what we're about. Don't you think Jesus would be understanding? We're about worshiping. Love these folks. We're about spreading the love of Jesus. Did you try to talk to them as they. No one is willing to talk.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Sickening, truly.

[A]

He handles that. He handles that very well.

[B]

By the way, that's the pastor talking from the church.

[A]

Yeah, that's the pastor. And. And another part of that that is emblematic of this move is Don Lemon has entered the church. They have forcibly disrupted this event.

[B]

And he's like, talk to them.

[A]

They are yelling. Not just that. They are yelling. They have been the aggressors at Every step of this process. And that pastor puts an arm on Don Lemon and he's like, don't push me, don't push me.

[B]

Right?

[A]

The flopping is out of control. Yeah, the flopping is out of control.

[B]

Italian soccer stars would be impressed.

[A]

I mean, just amazing stuff. But, you know, I kind of hope that Minneapolis stays cold enough that we do not get a full, A full scale burning as we did in 2020. That's the thing.

[B]

You and I are hoping for that. What are these protesters hoping for? They're hoping for that full scale burning. And Tim Walls, who we'll get to more in the next segment, he wants that. He is not bringing down the temperature at all. He keeps ratcheting it up. It's out of control that they're willing to burn their own city down. And you and I are sitting here in not Minneapolis saying, please don't, please don't.

[A]

There's, by the way, there's a fantastic clip of Jacob Fry talking about. And I'll just act it out and describe it. Talking about. And he puts the words in other protesters mouths, but he says, we have citizens here, activists, who want our local police to fight ICE agents in the streets. The chief of police is standing over his shoulder and you should see his eyebrows shoot to the moon. He is like, no, no, no, we will not be doing that. And you will not be sending that message from an official podium. But that is what he's doing. And I just think that is you can look at the totality of the situation and you can ask for ICE reforms and you can say that these things need to be trained better. And also. No to that. Yeah, no to that.

[B]

I mean, you'd think the mayor of the city would not want that. But here we are again saying, why do you want that? Why do you want violence in your streets? What do you think you win? You think you're going to win, win the midterms on this? And speaking of the midterms, I absolutely think Republicans have to be showing this church riot in ads. It's important that Americans see it. Like you said, I don't think the media is going to cover it. I don't think most Americans are going to see it until it becomes front and center. And if arrests happen, I think those should be in the ads too.

[A]

I do also think that talking about the actual people who are being arrested in these operations is important. And I, I wish that the administration was clearer about that on a regular basis. There's another viral clip of a man who is an ICE agent telling activists we are arresting a man who is a child sex offender right now and you are whistling to warn him that's who you're protecting. And then he just calls it insanity and drives away. A lot of normal people would feel that way if it were framed that way. It's not often framed that way. And it's the administration's job to do a better job of that and to make sure that people think it's being done competently because federal law should be enforced. As you saw in my locality, like just a couple weeks ago, they released a guy didn't honor a nice detainer and he murdered someone. Allegedly. He has not. He murdered someone the next day. The next day. So there is a human cost on that front too. Speaking of Virginia, we have a new governor.

[B]

Yes, you do have a new governor. How is that going for you?

[A]

Oh, not great. Carol Abigail Spamberger was sworn in in Virginia. Democrats have full control of, in the state of Virginia of the Senate and the House. And I, I don't say this lightly. The Senate Democrat leadership in Virginia is out of their minds. Louise Lucas, you can look her up on X is the is one of the members of leadership in that august body and she is the only Democrat I have seen come close to touching Trump level trolling. And it's not that I like it, but there's a part of me that's like she's, she's giving it the college try here. Nonetheless, despite the craziness, the Virginia voters wanted this. This is what they asked for and this is what they did get.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let me tell you a couple of things that they are working on and proposing right now. Taxpayer funded suggestions for taxpayer funded housing assistance for local government employees only for illegal residents, expanding sales and retail taxes. They are proposing taxes on investment funds. Of course, that sound you hear is investments leaving Virginia.

[B]

Didn't we talk about this in the last episode? Like billionaires are the most mobile, but people who have investments also mobile.

[A]

Well and they, they also think these things through. And when they hear this, they go, what should we do with this money? Should we lay it right here so that Democrats in Virginia take it or should we move it? Another fun one is moving to ban gas powered leaf blowers. And then they're also going to tax anything you have that's an electric leaf blower. It's good.

[B]

You can't, can't, can't leaf blow no.

[A]

More leaf blowing in Virginia Onslot is pretty impressive. Oh, also immediately, the first thing Spamberger did was eliminate the Youngkin era agreement or requirement that localities cooperate with ice. So yes, right.

[B]

Obviously that's the most important thing on.

[A]

The agenda, number one. Number one. So, yeah, the onslaught is going to be pretty serious. And you know, elections have consequences.

[B]

They do. They do. You know what I'll say? I'll say that Florida is waiting for you. My locality just reduced our sales tax. I've never had that happen before in my life. In my life, I've never had the county say, hey, we're going to reduce your sales tax. It's only by a penny or two. But like, come on, that has never happened to me. I don't even know what I was like, what is this? They're making it lower.

[A]

Meanwhile, meanwhile my area, purple county. So, you know, meanwhile our area just raised takeout taxes and they're also going to. On the state level, they're attempting to impose taxes on all online retailing, man. Affordability, Carol, it feels great.

[B]

I feel like you could get used to the heat.

[A]

Come on down, man. I mean, that part's not an issue for me.

[B]

All right, we're going to take a short break and come back with a little in case you missed it, about Kamala Harris. Be right back. We are back on normally and Kamala Harris, she is just still frequently in the news. I saw a clip of Kara Swisher telling a story about Kamala maybe a week ago. And I was like, oh, if something else happens with Kamala, we'll save this clip for that. But. And here we are, because we're going to get into what Josh Shapiro, governor of Pennsylvania, says he was asked during his VP vetting process. It's a good one. But let's start with this Kara Swisher clip about Kamala.

[D]

I just had an experience with Kamala Harris where we were joking about something backstage about Robert Kennedy Jr. It was specifically around circumcision and autism.

[B]

The link.

[D]

He was making a link which is not there. And then when I got on stage and mentioned it, she looked at me dead and said, people will die because of what they're doing.

[A]

I can't laugh about that.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[D]

And she had just laughed about it. And then she went into this sort of high handed kind of thing where she was like yelling at me, Kara.

[B]

It'S personal for me.

[D]

I was like, I'm gonna kill you. I literally can't believe you just did that.

[A]

I sometimes get the sense that she doesn't realize her political career is over.

[D]

I was like, where's the person Backstage, who just had a very insightful comment about this.

[B]

What a faker. What a fraud. And we knew this. We knew this about Kamala Harris. And the Kara Swishers of the world assured us that wasn't so. And the fact that she's telling the story now and not during the campaign is very, very telling. But this is who Kamala Harris was. She was one person behind the scenes and another person in front of an audience. And it was obvious. It was obvious. It never worked.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's the thing. What Kara felt in that switch is what everyone felt watching all the time. They knew that whatever they were getting was some weird, like, attempt at being a human that was not real. And for all, as we've said many times, for all of Donald Trump's weirdness, and there's a lot. He is Donald Trump, right?

[B]

Yeah, Kamala.

[A]

Not the same deal. And this reminds me also of. Do you remember when Eugene Daniels, who's the head of the White House Correspondents association, interviewed her in one forum? And it was like a very friendly forums, black journalists. And she was being interviewed by three. He was among them. And if you watch the live stream, when it ends, the look that Eugene Daniels gives to his fellow panelists is like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe this person is the nominee.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Y' all all knew it. Y' all all knew.

[B]

Everyone knew. Everyone knew. They kept it a secret. Let's talk about something else. Everyone knew. It turns out that Josh Shapiro was too Jewish to be the vice presidential nominee for Kamala Harris. We kind of knew that. And we'll get a little bit more into that. But also, they openly told him that he's too poor. Like, it's like, wow. I got to tell you, though, you know, normally it's like Jewish and too rich. That goes hand in hand. You know, this is very interesting. I'll read you a little clip from the New York Times. Shapiro eventually returned to Pennsylvania with his mind made up, though not before Remus spoke with him again. He writes and suggested that the role of vice president might be a financial burden for him and his wife. Shapiro's financial vetting showed that he didn't have much money, and the vice presidency would require Lori to buy a new wardrobe and pay the costs for second lady level hair and makeup, even as the couple would be required to pay for food and entertainment at the vice president's residence. Shapiro said he was taken aback. Are you trying to convince me not to do this? He recalls asking. Remus responded that she just wanted him to be sure this was something he wanted. In the end, Shapiro wrote, he realized that it was not.

[A]

So this is what we said about Shapiro at the time is that it read like he didn't want to be part of this. He did not want to hitch himself to this, to that star.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was right. But they also didn't want him. And here's why. Kamala Harris would have made an absolutely awful president. The reason they're telling him he's too poor or too Jewish is because they want him to remove himself from the process because they are too cowardly to do it themselves.

[B]

Exactly. But it's funny because there's something gratifying about the fact that she rejected Josh Shapiro and then picked Tim. I'm a man. I swear Walls. It's like this. You got what you deserved. You got that guy.

[A]

Tim Walls doesn't have any money, so it gives the lot.

[B]

But he was just poor, not poor and Jewish.

[A]

Oh, yes, that's true. That's true. By the way, this all comes from or this new news cycle comes from Shapiro's new book, which is called I Believe Where We Keep the Light. I love political memoirs. They just like sort of switch around light and hope and make up new. Like I'm. There's a chatgpt somewhere that's full of different memoir names.

[B]

George W. Bush was a charge to keep.

[A]

Yes. That's a pretty good one. Is it? I do think. I do think against my own interest. Audacity of Hope was kind of a catchy phrase. I don't mind that.

[B]

That doesn't make sense, though. Audacity of Hope. He was audacious.

[A]

That's why it's perfect for Barack Obama actually makes sense. No, this is true. In the book, the governor is measured in describing his interactions with Ms. Harris herself, the New York Times says. But Mr. Shapiro, who's Jewish, details a contentious vetting process in which Ms. Harris team focused intensely on his views on Israel. So much so that at one point he wrote he was asked if he had ever been an agent of the Israeli government. It's so good.

[B]

And then he goes on, had I been a double agent for Israel? Wrote Mr. Shapiro, describing his incredulous response response to a last minute question from the vetting team. He responded that the question was offensive, he wrote, and was told, well, we have to ask, have you ever communicated with an undercover agent of Israel? The questioner, Dana Remus, a former White House counsel, continued, according to Mr. Shapiro, who recounted, if they were undercover, I responded, how the hell Would I know. It's so good.

[A]

That's fantastic. Are you aware of the definition of undercover?

[B]

Yeah, if I knew, then they wouldn't be undercover. I, you know, Shapiro goes on to campaign for Kamala Harris. And that's the thing about Democrats, is that they will take this and still go and campaign. I shouldn't say just Democrats. Republicans do it too. There's so many lines where I'm like, I don't care if I'm in 95% agreement with this person. I'm not supporting them. If they ask me if I'm an agent for Israel. And again, Republicans absolutely do it too. I can think of some examples of Donald Trump making comments to people who ended up campaigning for them. I personally couldn't do it.

[A]

Couldn't do it.

[B]

I would just be like, all right, I'm out of political life forever. I don't care. I'm out.

[A]

That's why we don't run for office.

[B]

Exactly. I will go be a greeter at my local Target before I do this shit.

[A]

Understood. Same here.

[B]

We're gonna take a short break and come back with a feel good story because there's been, you know, a lot of negativity here. So we'll be right back. We are back with a story of a YouTuber who has decided to take a break from the YouTubing to better himself and really improve his knowledge. His name is Kai. Seen it? I think I'm saying that correctly. And he has gone viral for sharing videos of himself reading a book. I believe the book is Atomic Habits. And then looking up words that he doesn't know. Let's roll that clip.

[E]

Spontaneous, Spontaneous, Spontaneous. How do I pronounce that? Spawn. Spontaneity. Spawn, spawn. Oftentimes when I don't know what a word is pronounced, I want to. I get to look at how it's pronounced or what it even means. Spontaneity, Spontaneity. The condition of being spontaneous. Spontaneity, Spontaneity. Spontaneity, spontaneity and spontaneity. Spontaneity of life. Hardly such questions set up a false. What does that mean?

[B]

Dichotomy.

[E]

Dichotomy. A false dichotomy. What does that mean? A dichomedy. A division or contrast between two things that are or represented as being opposed or entirely different. Repeated branching into two equals dichoty.

[B]

It's wonderful. I love seeing that you are. Especially if you learn words while you're reading them. You may mispronounce them. And I've Always seen that as a sign of intelligence and not stupidity. Like, it's considered in, I feel like our culture. We're just, see, we see it as somebody dumb when they mispronounce a word, but that they likely learned that word by reading while reading. It's a good thing. I showed that clip to my kids. I was like, I love this. I love that this guy is bettering himself reading a book, challenging himself, looking up words he doesn't know. Love all of that. Please do it. You know, I told my kids, as you get older, you're. I want you to read challenging books that you don't know all the words. And then, yeah, go look them up. Go find out how they're pronounced. Do it.

[A]

Well, I. It's funny. I was writing a piece for National Review's 250 issue about literacy, and I. I was talking about how there is this trend now where there are a few influencers whose thing is that they read or they are learning to read. There's one guy named Oliver James who was 32 when the pandemic began and realized, like, I can't even read a restaurant menu. I was left behind in school. I fell through the cracks. And so he started to read on TikTok and taught himself to read. Moving up from Picture Books to Charlotte's Web. He's now reading C.S. lewis. I mean, it's amazing. There's another guy called Chris kind of reads, who is a young man who was a reader but had never read classics. So he starts reading classics. Penguin Classics, sends him an entire library.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

He's like, east of Eden is great, guys. You got to get into it. So I love the idea of things that are not part of the dopamine hit attention economy. The old good things becoming a trend. That is. That's what we want as a culture. Is people like this leading millions of young people to say, perhaps I should read a book. Yep.

[B]

And anybody mocking these people is no friend of mine. I just. Anybody mocking somebody trying to better themselves at whatever age, if you realize at 30 that you're not a great reader and you set out to become a better reader, good for you. Good for you.

[A]

It's like people who make fun of people who go to the gym for the first time, of course they're not. They're new to it. They are learning.

[B]

Yeah, I hate them.

[A]

This is what we should celebrate. And I love to see it. There is nothing like, so close to magic as when I saw my kids click and learn to read. I mean, it is an amazing thing to see and these guys get so much joy out of it while they're doing it that you can see. It's really cool.

[B]

I love it. Let's have more of that, please. Thanks for joining us on Normally. Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you could see subscribe anywhere you get your podcast. Get in touch with us at normallythepod at gmail com. Thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

[A]

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