Normally Podcast: Charlie Kirk’s Murder, Media Spin, and Talking to Kids About Political Violence

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Normally Podcast: Charlie Kirk’s Murder, Media Spin, and Talking to Kids About Political Violence
Release Date: September 18, 2025
Hosts: Marc Epping & Carol Markowitz

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Overview

This episode tackles the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's murder, examining not just the tragedy itself but the ensuing media narrative, public reaction, and the challenge of discussing political violence—and free speech—with children. The hosts dissect misinformation, media spin, responses from both political spectrums, and what the broader implications are for American society.

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Episode Structure and Key Segments

1. Framing the Killing and Its Narrative

Timestamps: [03:43] – [06:13]

• Motive and Misinformation: Carol Markowitz highlights widespread confusion and wrongful assumptions about the killer’s motivations. Emphasis is placed on how mainstream media and online speculation quickly painted the murderer as a far-right extremist before evidence surfaced showing he was a "left-leaning young man" (Marc Epping, [04:17]).
• Direct Evidence vs. Narrative: The hosts cite law enforcement texts showing the assailant’s left-wing motivations:

  “I did it because I couldn’t take his hate. Some hate you can’t negotiate out of.” — Marc Epping ([04:17])

• Surveys and Perception: Carol notes a YouGov survey showing many people continue to believe the shooter was a Republican despite evidence to the contrary ([05:38]).

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2. Media Spin and Public Reactions

Timestamps: [06:13] – [14:32]

• Media’s Role: The episode sharply criticizes mainstream outlets and certain personalities (e.g., Jimmy Kimmel, Randi Weingarten) for perpetuating or amplifying false narratives:

  "The media is not just not doing its job of educating the public... they’re covering up what really happened. They’re lying about what really happened—and it matters.” — Carol Markowitz ([06:14])

• False Flag Theories and Amplification:
  • Jimmy Kimmel is mocked for running with the unfounded narrative on late night TV ([07:30]).
  • Randi Weingarten is called out for "the false flag narrative in detail" about the shooting ([09:23]).
• Institutional Response vs. Political Violence: The hosts note a double standard in recognizing and responding to left-wing violence versus right-wing violence ([10:16], [11:41]).
• Reluctance to Self-Police: Marc and Carol contrast the right's willingness to denounce extremism with the left's reluctance ([14:08]).

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3. How the Left Is Responding—and Failing

Timestamps: [19:16] – [29:49]

• Celebration and Denial: The hosts critique some on the left for openly celebrating Kirk’s death and others for denying or downplaying such reactions.
  • Viral example: A Texas State University student is expelled after mocking Kirk's death at a vigil ([20:23]).
  • The paradox of moral outrage:

    “Misgendering is an act of violence... but actually wishing violence upon someone and celebrating violence for a disagreement is not even close to punishment.” — Marc Epping ([22:02])

• Academia and Radicalism:
  • The left valorizes former domestic terrorists by granting them university roles:

    “You know it’s a left problem because the left repeatedly valorizes and institutionally rewards actual, literal, convicted domestic terrorists and murderers by making them college professors.” — Marc Epping ([24:28])

• Media Figures' Refusal to Condemn:
  • A CNN panel featuring Scott Jennings is picked apart for resisting clear acknowledgment of widespread celebration online:

    “She’s working so hard to defend people who celebrated the murder of Charlie Kirk.” — Marc Epping ([27:21])

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4. Societal Impact and the Need for Honest Dialogue

Timestamps: [29:49] – [33:17]

• Polls on Public Feeling: 34% of liberals (vs. 7% of conservatives) say it's acceptable to be happy about a public figure’s death ([28:23]).

  “That is a widespread, huge... Don’t say that this is something normal...” — Carol Markowitz ([28:39])

• Historical Context: The hosts point out a pattern of left-wing political violence dating back to JFK and RFK, which is often misattributed in collective memory ([28:49]–[29:25]).

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5. How to Talk to Children About Political Violence

Timestamps: [34:16] – [39:19]

• Personal Dilemma: Marc Epping shares his struggle about how much to tell his own kids about the murder, given his similar professional role:

  “I want my kids to know the importance of speech, the importance of someone like Charlie... They are old enough to be scared for me... I don’t know how deep to go with this with them...” ([34:16])

• Modeling Openness: Carol suggests maintaining open communication so kids feel comfortable expressing their fears:

  “You want them to be able to tell you their fears and what they’re really thinking about.” ([35:12])

• Reinforcing Values: The importance of standing up for beliefs is underscored, even with the risk involved ([36:11]).

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6. Memorable Moments and Quotes

• On Media Spin:

  “If you’re getting your news from mainstream media, which is a crazy thing to do in 2025, double check it. Friends.” — Carol Markowitz ([09:34])

• On Self-Policing in Politics:

  “When the right needs self-policing, there are a lot of people on the right willing to do it... I’d love to see the left step up a little bit.” — Carol Markowitz ([14:08])

• On Institutional Hypocrisy:

  “Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorn are not repentant for having tried to blow up a ROTC dance filled with active duty military... These are people who you have elevated and you tell young people on campus that they are people worth listening to.” — Marc Epping ([25:15]–[25:46])

• On Moral Accountability:

  “If I were in that position... and it were flipped… that’s the most horrific thing I’ve seen. I condemn it in the strongest possible terms. I do not want to be associated with it in any way, shape or form. Just do the decent, easy call.” — Marc Epping ([27:42]–[28:21])

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7. Reflection and Uplift: The Value of Family

Timestamps: [36:43] – [39:53]

• Billy Corgan on Family vs. Fame: In a postscript, Marc and Carol share uplifting perspectives from Billy Corgan (Smashing Pumpkins) and Bob Odenkirk on the primacy of unconditional love and family over all professional accomplishments:

  “Only unconditional love in some facet of your life gives you the proper perspective to appreciate what is great about transactional things, but allows you to see them for what they are, which is transactional... my family is still above that.” — Billy Corgan ([39:20])

• Tying Back to the Theme:

  “That’s what Charlie would say as well.” — Carol Markowitz ([39:53])

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Conclusion

The episode offers a pointed critique of media handling of political tragedies, a condemnation of politicized narratives over factual reporting, and a call for self-honesty and accountability on both sides—though especially from the left, given this context. It ends on a human note, emphasizing the importance of family values and open discussion with children in turbulent times.

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Useful Timestamps

• Setting the Record Straight: [04:17] – [06:13]
• Media Spin and Left/Right Narratives: [06:30] – [14:32]
• Examples of Public Reactions: [19:16] – [24:28]
• Historical Context for Political Violence: [28:49] – [29:25]
• Talking to Kids about Political Violence: [34:16] – [36:43]
• Reflections on Family & Purpose: [37:28] – [39:53]

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(End of summary.)

Transcript

[Marc Epping]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Marc Epping]

Hey guys. We are back on normally the show with normalish takes for when the news gets weird. I'm Marc Epping.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I'm Carol Markowitz. We remain at normally consumed with the murder of Charlie Kirk. I'm sure that is true for a lot of you out there. I hear from a lot of my normie friends whose jobs are not in politics, who are not online all the time, that they really can't stop thinking about Charlie and what happened. And it's affected them so much. So we're going to talk about it some more today. And today we're going to start with why did the killer did this and all the different reasons that crazy people on the Internet have invented for it.

[Marc Epping]

Mm, yeah, there has, there has been an attempt to sort of make sure that everyone left of center and anyone else they can grab understands that a groiper, a right leaning, far right person is the person who perpetrated this crime. Now those same people will tell you, oh, we must be very measured and slow to come to conclusions about motives, I will grant you that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Marc Epping]

Like there's an Occam's razor here where if someone's killing Charlie Kirk, I think we can guess what that person's political leanings and motives might be. But there are assassinations that happen that are just a crazy person. Jared Loughner shooting Gabby Giffords is one. Hinckley shooting Reagan is one. These were not politically motivated, but they are assassination attempts. Right. In this case, we now have evidence that it was not some far right leaning person or someone who agreed super hard with Charlie Kirk. It was in fact a left leaning young man in a relationship with a trans boyfriend or somebody who was in the, in the process of transitioning. We have texts between the two of them released by law enforcement to that effect saying I did it because I couldn't take his hate. Some hate you can't negotiate out of.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, see, it was pretty clear there. I'll say that you know this lie, that it was somebody on the right that did this is effective. There was a YouGov survey released where the question was, as far as you know, is the person who shot Charlie Kirk, question mark. A Democrat, 21%, a Republican 24%. Not sure. Was 40%. But more people think the person who shot Charlie Kirk was a Republican than think he was a Democrat. That's a problem.

[Marc Epping]

It's on purpose. Yeah, it's on purpose.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's clear that the media is not just not doing its job of educating the public, letting people know what really happened, but they're covering up what really happened. They're lying about what really happened and it matters.

[Marc Epping]

Yeah. I think I've written before and I think it might have been an end of discussion that when there is left wing violence that's very, very clear, they either erase it entirely so they can move on or they alchemize it into right wing violence. Right, right. So this is a great example of them sort of just turning it into right wing violence when there is no evidence of that. And by the way, I would like to shout out Will Stancil who is a.

[Carol Markowitz]

Could you believe you're saying that?

[Marc Epping]

A very left leaning writer who is over on Blue sky fighting the good fight to say guys, holding back the hordes. It's like to say, guys, you have fooled yourself into believing this thing. That's not real. There is zero evidence that this person is a groiper and there is significant evidence that he is a left leaning person who was radicalized into shooting someone for his beliefs. That's quite clear. So shout out to him for that. Jimmy Kimmel, on the other hand, really taking the first theory and running with it. Here he is on late night tv.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Condolences on the loss of your friend Charlie Kirk. May I ask her personally how are you holding up over the last day.

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[Carol Markowitz]

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Yes. He's at the fourth stage of grief. Construction, demolition, construction. This is not how an adult grieves the murder of someone he called a friend. This is how a four year old mourns a goldfish.

[Marc Epping]

Okay, was the new low the right's response? Or was the new low the murdering of a political opponent for speaking on a campus? Right, because I think that was the low.

[Carol Markowitz]

If you want to talk a new new low, it's the left pretending it was the right. Jimmy Kimmel pretending it was maga. I mean, what is the argument here? That this guy just loved Charlie Kirk so much he wanted to kill him? Like, is that really what we're going with? Like, he killed him out of love?

[Marc Epping]

Well, and some of the arguments from the left are that he engraved things on the bullets to set up the left. Randi Weingarten, head of the teachers union and famously democratically aligned national figure who gets to write their policies for them. She put out, like, the false flag narrative in detail from some essay poster.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Marc Epping]

Who? She was like, let me amplify this to everyone. And then she was like, someone read this. Some of you read this as a false flag. So I'm going to take it down. No, no, we just read what you posted.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, she said conspiracy theories. She's all about it. During COVID she said that Ron DeSantis was hiding COVID deaths. I mean, she's often at the. At the forefront of that. But, yeah, I. It is. It makes no sense. And it's so disingenuous. And again, what's most unfortunate about it is that it's working. And I think if you're getting your news from mainstream media, which is a crazy thing to do in 2025, double check it. Double check it, Friends. It isn't, you know, without question that they could easily lie to you. And a lot of them are doing just that.

[Marc Epping]

I wanted to add Caitlin Collins here, she was interviewing Ted Cruz, and he was saying, you know, the motive is clearly what the motive is, which the law enforcement is doing a press conference and informing us of in texts that they have released. The man is alive, by the way. He will continue to talk to law enforcement.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Marc Epping]

Thereby disproving this nonsense. And Kaitlan Collins would not back down from the idea that there is no motive. Established that, you know, that what those texts are different from establishing a motive. Senator. Senator. There are lots of instances of political violence, and she name checked Melissa Hortman, whose terrible murder in Minnesota happened earlier this year. Again, like Hinckley and Reagan, not politically motivated. This was a guy who thought Walsh was telling him to murder a member of the Minnesota House or Senate. Like, this is not the same thing. She also mentioned Pelosi's husband. Again, not politically motivated. A weird incident, but not politically motivated. And third, she mentioned in the. In the phrase, and the phrasing was attacks on Democrats. She mentioned the assassination attempt on Brett Kavanaugh. So magically, yet another thing has been alchemized somehow into our fault when we're being shot.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. A lot of people are also picking up the Josh Shapiro having his house burned down. Also a leftist, also a free Palestine leftist. So this is why it's kind of tough even today to be a conservative, because the mainstream media, once it gets going, it's very hard to stop the narrative. And I think we're going to do our best. But if you're hearing that this is a conservative who shot Charlie Kirk because they just, you know, he just loved the way he MAGA'd and he wanted a MAGA with him and he wanted to kill him, that makes no sense at all. I'll say that on the right, there is some of this where some real lunatics are saying that Israel killed Charlie Kirk. Again, why. Why would they kill somebody who was such a huge supporter? Why wouldn't they? Again, nobody's suggesting that anybody should die for their beliefs, but why would they go after somebody who loved them as opposed to all the people who hate them?

[Marc Epping]

Yeah, that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Why are all those people safe?

[Marc Epping]

That is a mystery. Like, that's the thing. None of this passes the smell test. Let me also mention that Neera Tanden, Democratic operative who was on a CNN panel, was talking with a young conservative woman, Brianna Lyman, who did a great job. And Brianna mentioned, hey, there are three assassination investigations trials happening right now. Luigi Mangione, Ryan Routh, and Tyler Robinson. What do all three of those have in common? They were political assassinations and assassination attempts by the left. And Neera Tanden laughed. This young woman was saying, we have to worry about this. My young friends who speak on campuses are the ones who have to worry about this. Neera Tanden laughed at her and said, there's a lot of trials for political violence going on. She can't come up with any. Off the top of her head trials. She can't come up with any. But they won't even let you have your mourning. They won't let you have your fear. They won't legitimize any of it. And the one person who's going above and beyond Will Stancil. We already name checked Ezra Klein going above and beyond to say not only was Charlie Kirk doing this the right way, I will encourage more of it and I will have people like Charlie and people living out his legacy on my show to engage with them and he is getting reamed for it.

[Carol Markowitz]

I would say that, you know I'm pleased that those two are doing it. They're a surprising duo for this. But you know when the right needs self policing there are a lot of people on the right willing to do it. It wouldn't be just two, it would be multitude of people writing think pieces about this is not who we are. And I'd love to see the left step up a little bit.

[Marc Epping]

Actually a really good example of that was yesterday when Pam Bondi stepped in it twice by totally messing up the idea of the first amendment and hate speech and the entire right came down on her and Trump up to and including a bunch of people saying maybe she should get fired for this. I mean like we do the thing that is, that is something we can do and some argue we do it too often. But in this case I do think she was really wrong about this.

[Carol Markowitz]

Totally agree.

[Marc Epping]

More coming up on normally. But before that, I want to talk to you about something that's close to both Carol's and my hearts. It was nearly two years ago that terrorists murdered more than 1200 innocent Israelis and took 250 hostages. Today, it seems as if the cries of the dead and dying have been drowned out by shouts of anti Semitic hatred. And the most brutal attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust has been forgotten in some quarters. Yet as the world looks away, a light shines in the darkness. It's a movement of love and support for the people of Israel called Flags of Fellowship. And I know some of you will want to get involved. It's organized by the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. And on October 5, just a few weeks away, millions across America will prayerfully plant an Israeli flag in honor and solidarity with the victims of October 7, 2023 and their grieving families. And now you can be a part of it as well. To get more information about how you can join the Flags of Fellowship movement, visit the fellowship [e-mail] that's ifcj.org we'll.

[Carol Markowitz]

Be right back with more on normally.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Welcome back to Normalely where we're going to be getting into how the left has been conducting itself after the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And I will for one say not well, not well with the behavior since his murder. What do you say Mary Catherine?

[Marc Epping]

Look, the issue is again, I think if it were me, right, and this happened the other way around, I would be doing everything I could. Because once someone is murdered for their beliefs, it's not enough just to be like, that was bad, right? You have to make sure that the people who are in Charlie's position, or whoever the analog is on the left, feel free to speak. You have to go above and beyond to say, I want to make sure you are safe. I want to make sure you have space to make your arguments. And the left is so far from that. It is all the way around to making fun of us or celebrating the murder. That's how far off they are from it. And then they will do the other thing, which is deny that any of the bad behavior is happening.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. It's infuriating. It really is. You know, I. Look, a lot of people have said a lot of stupid things. I really haven't highlighted most of them, but there was a video that Libs of TikTok posted yesterday that really affected me. It was a, a guy, they were holding a vigil and this guy and his friends were coming in and like tapping their necks and like you know, imitating Charlie, right? Yeah. And I, it really, really pissed me off. And I tweeted about it like I'm supposed to be hope that this guy's life isn't ruined. What am I supposed to want him to be? My dentist? My kid's teacher? Be serious. A lot of people are saying that we should have some grace. What if this person apologizes? You know, I, I think this person should apologize. I think that that's what should happen. It was at Texas State University. Apparently the student has been expelled. I have a real hard time feeling sorry for him. I have a real hard time and I just, you know, sorry I'll just say one thing. I have a column in, you know, Wednesday's New York Post about how Democrats should step up and say something. And a line that got cut, I think, for space was, you know, the idea that we would work with people who have ideas like this. I get we shouldn't be blanket firing. I get people say dumb stuff, but, like, what if you say something they disagree with at lunch?

[Marc Epping]

Yeah.

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What happened?

[Carol Markowitz]

What are they gonna do to you? Like, what if they wouldn't murder you? What if they would just beat you up after work? It's not crazy that they think that violence is the answer to words that they don't like, that you're going to have to watch what you say. And that's the society that none of us should want to live in.

[Marc Epping]

I would also add that that student, if you are told that that student was merely expelled for his views, he also trampled things at that event, spit and used a racial slur, apparently violating several of the school's rules. And so that, you know, it was a little bit more than just saying things or pantomiming gross things. And yeah, I think there's this. There's this thing where to the left. And I think it's particularly notable here in the trans community, especially, misgendering is an act of violence that is worthy of all sorts of punishment, the most punishment. Whereas actually wishing violence upon someone and celebrating violence for a disagreement is not even close to punishment.

[Carol Markowitz]

Amazing, right?

[Marc Epping]

Yeah, really. Really. That's. That's amazing. And look, I do think there's also an issue of, just as you point out, emotional self control with these folks. Like, there was a whole group of people outside of Luigi Mangione's trial. First of all, you're spending your day outside of Luigi Mangione's trial. One of the charges was dropped, a terrorism charge. I think he still would be facing stiff charges regardless. The people outside, allegedly sort of normal people wearing Luigi hats, which, by the way, is a smear to Luigi and Mario's.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, those are the good working men.

[Marc Epping]

The good character of Mario and Luigi's plumbing business. But they're out there wearing the Luigi hats and they all cheer. And you're telling me that I need to be happy to work with the people who cheer. Actual murderers.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yep.

[Marc Epping]

And I think that's an emotional regulation sewer that I'm not going near.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. And the idea of that, like, he didn't like what insurance companies, how insurance companies treat people. So he got to just kill a random CEO, like, can we just kill people that we don't approve of what job they do. I mean, this is where you are now, and this is what you're defending. And again, so in my column, I really do think that Democrats owe it to our society to bring that temperature down. Recognize that this is on your side. This is happening only on the left. I'm not saying the right is perfect. Lots of problems on the right.

[Marc Epping]

But this.

[Carol Markowitz]

This celebrating. Yeah. This is on the left. I just don't see this on the right.

[Marc Epping]

I'm going to crib a point from my good friend Michael Moynihan, who he. You can get out of the morass of arguing about who did this, for what reason, who does, and counting them up. You know how. You know it's a left problem. You know it's a left problem because the left repeatedly valorizes and institutionally rewards actual, literal, convicted domestic terrorists and murderers by making them college professors.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yep.

[Marc Epping]

They have jobs in academia because. And they're not repentant. Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorn are not repentant for having tried to blow up a ROTC dance filled with active duty military in a. In a dance hall.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Marc Epping]

Kathy Bourdon, or however you say her last name is. Not like she killed a Brinks truck driver and was part of this. This conspiracy that killed a Brinks truck driver. Innocent guy. Angela Davis, Weapons used in several murders, like served time for a felony.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Marc Epping]

These protect our people.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Marc Epping]

These are people who you have elevated and you tell young people on campus that they are people worth listening to. It's not even rare. They're all over the place.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. It's also like, they can't criticize these protesters and these people who are celebrating the murder because they will have to first admit that they exist. And they don't seem like they're willing to do that. We're gonna play a clip from Scott Jennings, who just does really heroic work at cnn, taking on the batshit crazy. Let's roll the clip.

[Marc Epping]

Everybody here acknowledges that there have been.

[Carol Markowitz]

Thousands upon thousands of people, ordinary people.

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Who have taken to social media to celebrate this.

[Scott Jennings]

Yes or no? I don't know about that, Renee. I don't know.

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I have high school friends who are.

[Carol Markowitz]

I.

[Scott Jennings]

A second. I just think we should just. There's. We got to be factual about this, right?

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Scott Jennings]

I don't think you know the scope. I don't know the scope, but I. I do think that we have to distinguish between random people in the world and something that is a dominant.

[Marc Epping]

Why issue because the person who shot Charlie was a random person in the world, was he not?

[Scott Jennings]

Well, here's the thing here.

[Marc Epping]

That's the danger. You dismiss the random people of the world.

[Carol Markowitz]

They have access.

[Scott Jennings]

There have been political assassinations in this country before, Scott, wouldn't you agree? And they're all reprehensible. And in this country, do you believe that in those political assassinations in the 60s, in the 70s, in the 80s, assassination attempts, that there were no Americans who cheered that on? I think the question is. The question is whether or not. Whether or not it happens. The question is whether or not we need to place that at the very center of our political world right now and categorize half the people in the country according to those random people that we now just happen to see because of the.

[Marc Epping]

She's working so hard. It's to defend.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Marc Epping]

People who celebrated the murder of Charlie Kirk. She's working so hard.

[Carol Markowitz]

She's going back to the 80s to say. I'm sure there are people that celebrated here too. We just didn't find out about it because of the Internet. And by the way, the other thing, they put it on the Internet.

[Marc Epping]

I know. Yes. They broadcast it. She's working so hard. If I were in that position, by the way, and it were flipped, I'm just going to, just going to use me as the example because I do the same job that these folks do. And you brought up that people on the right had celebrated the death of someone killed for their beliefs. I, you know what I would do? I'd be like, that's the most horrific thing I've seen. This is. This is.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yep.

[Marc Epping]

I condemn it in the strongest possible terms. I do not want to be associated with it in any way, shape or form. I think it exists in too many places. Just do the thing. Just do the decent, easy call.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Marc Epping]

And they can't do it.

[Carol Markowitz]

There was a YouGov poll a few days ago that found 34% of Liberal or very liberal people say it's acceptable to be happy about a public figure's death. Only 7% of conservatives or very conservative people agree. Sorry. That is a widespread.

[Marc Epping]

Huge.

[Carol Markowitz]

Don't say that this is something normal that. Oh, you know, in the 80s people also felt like this. These people posted it on the Internet for everybody to see.

[Marc Epping]

When she brings up assassinations of other decades also, like Kennedy was assassinated by a commie.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Marc Epping]

Who didn't like that he was an anti commie.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. Continues to be leftists.

[Marc Epping]

Well, and we have been gaslit about that for decades. Saying that it was Dallas's right wing stew that created this defected to the USSR commie shooter, which wasn't true. RFK killed by a Palestinian activist. I mean, it's just. Can we just, as she requests, deal in facts? Yeah, can we deal in facts?

[Carol Markowitz]

But they don't. They just don't. And the thing is, the left just gets to say whatever they want. They could say, oh, what are you talking about? There have not been thousands of people on the Internet celebrating the death. What are you even saying? Or Randi Weingarten continues to use words like fascist to describe people that she disagrees with. And that's supposed to somehow be okay. It just.

[Marc Epping]

She's at that this week. She's doing her book tour about how teachers are the antidote to fascism.

[Carol Markowitz]

Mm. Yeah, I guess people who don't remember four years ago will maybe believe that because I remember her fascist shutting down of schools and then, and then shutting down the opinions of anybody who disagreed with her and working with the media to do it, you know, and the government, obviously. But with the media, they helped her and they made sure that people were misinformed about what was actually going on so that Randi Weingarten could get her way, you know, the left.

[Marc Epping]

She's going to go all around the country and be like, the fascists who live in this country are the problem. And they're all just going to talk about it all day long, gleefully.

[Carol Markowitz]

Let's take a short break and we'll be right back on. Normally talking about how to talk to your kids about this.

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[Carol Markowitz]

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[Marc Epping]

We are back on normally and I'm actually going to toss around some ideas. Ask for some advice because I don't usually run into the issue of not knowing how to talk to my kids about something. Often I feel pretty confident about what I can take a pass on and is too grown up for them or things that we need to address and that kind of thing. But I find that my values are colliding here because I want my kids to know the importance of speech, the importance of someone like Charlie. They were too young to really watch him or know who he was. They don't do a lot of Internet access, but they are old enough to be scared for me and they are going to clock right away that Charlie's job was Mom's job and that when I travel to do it, it's not that satisfying to be like, it's statistically improbable that I'm going to be murdered doing my job. I don't know how deep to go with this with them, but I think it's really important that they understand it also.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? And it's also the even if you don't do what we do, we tell our kids to stand up for their opinions, to say what they really think, to be fearless in their lives, to be brave. And here was somebody who was fearless and here was somebody who was brave, and here's somebody who was saying what he really thought and living his faith and doing all the things that we tell our kids to do. And he was killed for it. It's very, very hard. I think also as your kids get older, they're going to hear about things, you know, before you get a chance to fill it in. So, like, what you're saying to them now lays the basis for later. And it's a really tough call. I don't know. I think that. I know you're doing a great job and I think that having an open line of communication with your kids where they could tell you, mom, I'm afraid for you is the best result. It's what you want. You want them to be able to tell you their fears and what they're really thinking about.

[Marc Epping]

No, that's a fair point. We were kind of in this little bubble of being on a family trip when this happened, as you guys were as well. And it's so I didn't broach it then, but I have broached it lightly since. And I probably do need to have like a, you know, like a sit down with them where they could toss around some ideas about it because they're old enough to metabolize it. They're old enough to think about it, and they're old enough to think about, you know, and to hear about why speech is important, why standing up for yourself is important. Like, it's actually more important that I go do my job than it was last week.

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly.

[Marc Epping]

Since this is a hard subject, I want to uplift us with Billy Corgan of the Smashing Pumpkins talking to Bill Maher about parenthood. And I also saw a clip from Bob Odenkirk of Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad fame talking about parenthood recently, too. And he said, the great thing about parenting young children is that you never have to wonder what your purpose is, because your purpose is right in front of you all the time. And she said he was actually jealous of people who have young kids in their house because they don't have to worry about their own vanity and their ambitions and their. Which is, like, such a nice frame if you're living in. It feels like, should I rethink it? But here's. Here's Billy Corgan talking about parenthood in a beautiful way. And I'm loving this trend. I hope we can see more of it.

[Billy Corgan]

I had a million dollars by the time I was 24 years old. Okay. A year before that, I was making $12,000 a year working at a record store, and I was broke. Okay? So I'm a. You know, I mean, we grew up in a time where millionaire. These days, millionaires. Now, it doesn't mean as much, but the word millionaire still meant something in my brain when I was 23 years old. So I have a million dollars when I'm 24 years old, by the time I'm 26. IMTV Platinum Records, Saturday Night Live cover, Rolling Stone. I mean, I basically did by my mid-20s, like, most of the checklists, all the boxes. Okay. And I never felt this sense of satisfaction about it. And I couldn't quite understand why, because everybody around me is like, this is fucking incredible. And I was like, it is and it isn't. Okay? So to answer your question, the problem with all of it is it's transactional. Because no matter how many hit songs you write, it's always, what about the next one? No matter how many records you're sold, there's always somebody who's going to sell more records than you. No matter how good you are, there's always somebody telling you, writing online, that you're the worst thing that ever happened. There was always like an asterisk or a qualifier. And, I mean, even my band at times was transactional with me. I mean, I would write these massive songs, and they were kind of like they didn't give a shit. It was weird.

[Marc Epping]

Why?

[Billy Corgan]

Well, that gets into band psychology. And we could talk about it if you want, but just to finish the little spiel. Only unconditional love in some facet of your life gives you the proper perspective to appreciate what is great about transactional things, but allows you to see them for what they are, which is transactional. There's no Valhalla at the top of Rock Mountain. There isn't. And I've been there multiple times. So when I stand in front of 65,000 people in my hierarchical mind, my family is still above that.

[Marc Epping]

Right?

[Billy Corgan]

Sure. I tell my kids all the time and they're still little kids and hopefully it'll endure in their brain.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love that so much. That was so nice.

[Marc Epping]

And like listen to people like him. I think Scotty Scheffler, the golfer was another one who recently said almost exactly this. He said I can win every tournament and it's done by the next week. Right. The things that matter are my kids and my wife, who has one kid. My kid and my wife. And it's interesting to hear people who have hit that pinnacle of success say that this is still the thing that really, really matters.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love it. And just to bring it back around, that's what Charlie would say as well. Well, thanks for joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening and when things get weird, act normally.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Sophia Bush, host of the podcast Work in Progress. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard. For me, a standard that matters to me is being a friend, being a person, being a coworker who shows up. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus benchmarks are feelings, things like exhilaration and joy and amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. It's feeling like your car was designed and built just for you. A machine that makes you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. So experience amazing at your Lexus dealer.

[Marc Epping]

This is an iHeart podcast.