Normally Podcast: Epstein Fallout, Hunter Biden’s Media Push & The New Debate Over Modern Motherhood

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Normally Podcast: Epstein Fallout, Hunter Biden’s Media Push & The New Debate Over Modern Motherhood
Date: November 18, 2025
Hosts: Bethany Mandel, Carol Markowitz, and frequent contributor Mary Katharine Ham
Network: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

In this episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show's “Normally” segment, co-hosts Bethany Mandel and Carol Markowitz deliver candid, sharp-witted takes on three key current events:

• The continuing political and media obsession with the Jeffrey Epstein files.
• Hunter Biden’s recent media tour and public persona.
• A poignant new cultural conversation around motherhood, inspired by pop music and wider social trends.

The pair blend pop culture, serious news, and relatable personal anecdotes, aiming to demystify hot-button issues and challenge prevailing mainstream narratives with humor and grit.

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Segment 1: Epstein Fallout and Media Cynicism

Timestamps: 04:16-11:21

Main Discussion Points

• Reluctance and Weariness:
  Bethany voices strong frustration at the continued focus on Jeffrey Epstein, emphasizing how it distracts from more pressing issues in the run-up to the midterms.

  • Quote:

    “I hate this. I hate this. I hate that every second we spend talking about this nonsense is a second we don’t spend talking about other things... We are right now the party that is dragged down by this Epstein thing.” — Bethany Mandel [04:27]

• Political Pressure on Trump:
  The hosts discuss why Trump feels pushed to support the release of Epstein evidence, viewing it as a political necessity rather than personal vindication.

• Epstein’s Real Victims and the Power Trap:
  Carol maintains a “medium concerned and medium cynical” stance, noting that the real scandal lies in the number of powerful people adjacent to Epstein who have avoided scrutiny.

  • Quote:

    “There are real victims here who I don’t think got justice for sure because he got this sweetheart deal the first time around. And we don’t really know why that happened. And there are a lot of powerful people involved.” — Carol Markowitz [05:36]

• Transparency vs. Cynicism:
  Both agree that more transparency is likely the best course, but doubt it will satisfy conspiracy theorists or the media’s appetite for scandal.

• The Narrative Game and Trump:
  Discussion centers on how media figures—allegedly even some reporters—advised Epstein on damaging Trump, a dynamic Trump doesn’t effectively articulate.

  • Quote:

    “Reporters… giving advice to Jeffrey Epstein about how to destroy Donald Trump. I feel like somebody should put that in Donald Trump’s ear so the next time he’s asked about it, he can point to that.” — Bethany Mandel [08:48]

• Media and Political Collusion:
  Revelations like Virgin Islands Rep. Stacey Plaskett texting with Epstein while questioning Michael Cohen are cited as examples of deep entanglements.

• 2025 Election Framing:
  The hosts want Republicans “back on point,” centering economic messaging over scandal.

  • Quote:

    “I don’t care all caps. All I do care about is that Republicans get back on point when he’s talking about discussing economic issues.” — Carol Markowitz, referencing Trump [10:19]

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Segment 2: Hunter Biden’s Media Offensive

Timestamps: 14:47-19:44

Main Discussion Points

• Hunter in the Spotlight:
  Carol notes that Hunter Biden is tailor-made for the “attention economy” and the current swarm of podcast culture:

  • Quote:

    “His personality is perfectly crazy for this moment. An attention economy with a bunch of podcasts—and he’s making use of that crazy personality and sort of unhinged vibe.” — Carol Markowitz [14:55]

• Ambiguity & Defensiveness:
  The hosts dissect Hunter’s paradoxical statements in interviews, where he calls for people to “turn the temperature up” but also insists he is not advocating violence.

  • Quote:

    “What I mean by turning the temperature up is we need to speak truth to power.” — Hunter Biden (quoted by Bethany Mandel) [15:44]

• Political Déjà Vu:
  Both hosts see familiar echoes of 2017’s media strategies, expecting “more impeachments” if the House changes hands. Trump remains a media lodestone regardless.

  • Quote:

    “So much of the past several months feels like a replay of 2017, where it’s like, ooh, huge story. Like, let’s turn up the temperature. When they go low, we go to the gutter.” — Carol Markowitz [15:58]

• Hunter’s Messy Impact:
  The consensus: Hunter’s erratic public appearances may eventually yield useful revelations—but are currently a liability for Democrats.

• Media Accessibility Comparisons:
  Disputing Hunter’s critique of Trump’s media access, the hosts praise Trump’s approachable style contrasted with Biden’s avoidant approach.

  • Quote:

    “[The Trumps] are incredibly accessible. He has regular text conversations off the record and on the record with various reporters all over the spectrum. His cabinet members sit down for long-form interviews regularly.” — Carol Markowitz [18:46]

• Republican & Democratic Disarray:
  Both parties are depicted as internally divided heading into the elections, with “disarray” as the prevailing mood for both camps.

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Segment 3: The Debate Over Modern Motherhood

Timestamps: 23:39-35:36

Main Discussion Points

• Musical Catalyst:
  Discussion launches from Bethany’s article inspired by Kelsea Ballerini’s song “I Sit in Parks.” This song reflects generational regret and longing around family and motherhood.

  • Quote:

    “She captures the ache of a generation of women who were told to chase freedom, ambition, and self-discovery, but never what to do when they found themselves alone, wondering if they ran too far from the very things that would have grounded them.” — Bethany Mandel [24:47]

• Feminism vs. Fulfillment:
  The hosts critique “feminist messaging” they see as downplaying the rewards of motherhood and family, noting that many women feel unfulfilled by the promised freedoms.

  • Quote:

    “I've yet to meet a mom who’s like, ‘I wish I had freedom instead of these three children over here.’” — Bethany Mandel [25:36]

• Vulnerability & Empathy:
  Both are sympathetic to women who feel they “missed the mark” or worry about passing the window for having children.

• Declining Desire for Marriage:
  Bethany references a Pew poll showing girls’ stated likelihood to marry has dropped steeply in 30 years, blaming influencers like Andrew Tate for fueling negative messages about marriage in young men’s circles.

• Toxic Influencers:
  Andrew Tate and Nick Fuentes are called out for their “marriage is pointless/women are terrible” messaging. The hosts warn conservatives to guard against these influences on boys.

  • Quote:

    “People need to be concerned with, especially on the right, because [Tate] is coming for the boys... These are all people that you need to worry about them influencing our young boys.” — Bethany Mandel [32:06]

• Loss of Relationship “Scripts”:
  The hosts lament the erosion of social scripts for dating, marriage, and gender roles—but see some optimism in online content encouraging positive relationships.

• Bill Ackman & The ‘May I Meet You’ Meme:
  They riff on Bill Ackman’s suggestion for men to break the ice with, “May I meet you?”—mocked as awkwardly old-fashioned but appreciated as an earnest attempt to revive in-person connection.

  • Quote:

    “It is an old-fashioned way of talking... but I do think there is a thing where people have lost the ability to speak to each other in public.” — Carol Markowitz [34:09]

• Personal Anecdotes & Hopefulness:
  Bethany shares a conversation with her own 12-year-old son, who is reportedly skeptical of both feminist and misogynistic messaging—a hopeful note for the next generation.

  • Quote:

    “He said, you know, the article was sad, but it didn’t concern me. I’m not going to fall for the feminist messaging of the age. …I do worry that the Andrew Tates of the world are going to reach him and tell him that all girls are scum.” — Bethany Mandel [31:18]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I hate this. I hate this. I hate that every second we spend talking about this nonsense is a second we don’t spend talking about other things.” — Bethany Mandel [04:27]
• “There are real victims here who I don’t think got justice for sure because he got this sweetheart deal the first time around.” — Carol Markowitz [05:36]
• “Once you’re rich and famous and can have any girl on the planet, you realize they’re all scum and you don’t want a single one.” — Andrew Tate, as cited by Bethany Mandel [30:15]
• “We’re very heteronormative on the show. There are actually only two genders.” — Bethany Mandel [33:00]
• “Men and women, we gotta pull it together, y'all.” — Carol Markowitz [35:31]

---

Conclusion

Through humor, personal stories, and sharp political commentary, “Normally” offers listeners a skeptical but ultimately hopeful look at some of the most contentious debates in American politics and culture. Mandel and Markowitz champion honest conversations about media narratives, family, and public messaging, urging listeners to question prevailing wisdom and prioritize genuine connection in a fractured age.

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• Epstein Fallout & Media Cynicism: [04:16-11:21]
• Hunter Biden’s Media Push: [14:47-19:44]
• Modern Motherhood Debate & Relationship Scripts: [23:39-35:36]

Transcript

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[Bethany Mandel]

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[Bethany Mandel]

Hey, guys.

[Carol Markowitz]

We are back on normal, the show with normal it takes for when the news gets here.

[Bethany Mandel]

Hi, Mary Kathryn Kim. I'm Carol Markowitz.

[Carol Markowitz]

Sorry I forgot to announce who I am. All y' all know, they know I had a. I had a big workout this morning. I might have. Might have lost part of my brain. Also, we had a haircutting incident at the house this weekend.

[Bethany Mandel]

What incident? That doesn't sound good.

[Carol Markowitz]

The four year old got a hold of scissors and I was informed of it while on a trip to New York. Oh, on the train on the way back, like, how bad is it?

[Bethany Mandel]

How bad is it?

[Carol Markowitz]

I got one of those calls where my husband was like, everyone's fine.

[Bethany Mandel]

Everything's okay.

[Carol Markowitz]

And he told me it was not bad. And I thought, not bad on a dad scale, not bad on a toddler scale. Like, what? And I returned home and it indeed was not bad. She had gone after the ends, okay. And she took off about 4 inches of 1 of her pink tails, but she had very long hair, so it was like, it's not a big deal. It needed a trim anyway, so I just gave her a chop yesterday, and now she has a stylish new look.

[Bethany Mandel]

I love it.

[Carol Markowitz]

I know.

[Bethany Mandel]

Sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands when you think you need a haircut.

[Carol Markowitz]

I think she was sending me a message. She was like, I'm done with this.

[Bethany Mandel]

Mom, so take me forever, Mom.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yep.

[Bethany Mandel]

Well, that sounds like an exciting weekend. I am glad to be back into it with you. Unfortunately, we are back to talking about Jeffrey Epstein, Steve.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, we are.

[Bethany Mandel]

Hate talking about Jeffrey Epstein. You know, okay. Donald Trump is under political pressure, so he said that the House should release all evidence on Jeffrey Epstein. He's been kind of cornered into doing this. I, however, am not under any political pressure. So I can say, I hate this. I hate this. I hate this. I hate that every second we spend talking about this nonsense is a second we don't spend talking about other things. And the midterms will be here real fast. We are right now the party that is dragged down by this Epstein thing and nonstop talking about the crazies in our media world. And, you know, the vice president gets asked about Tucker Carlson, and that has to be a whole issue. The president gets asked about Tucker Carlson as well. It's just. It's constant insanity over here while we should be focused on doing other things. And so this Epstein thing is just another thing to me where I understand why Donald Trump has to do it. I understand the political pressure he is under. But for those of us not under political pressure, I just want to say this is all stupid.

[Carol Markowitz]

So I'm like, where I've always been on the Epstein thing, which is medium concerned and medium cynical about it. Right. Which is like, there are real victims here who I don't think got justice for sure because he got this sweetheart deal the first time around. And we don't really know why that happened. And there are a lot of powerful people involved. So I am concerned for that reason. I do not believe. I feel like the Trump involvement here feels like the Russiagate story, where everyone's just like, yes, everything's a scoop. Everything we see is a little piece of the puzzle. And it's like you. I don't think it is, really. I think that they were. They were in the same circles, and that it's clear from at least some of these emails that Trump was like, knock it off, Ghislaine.

[Bethany Mandel]

Yes, yes.

[Carol Markowitz]

And didn't have her around. There are many ways in which I think Trump falls short of, like, my moral conduct standard, but I don't think this is what people think it is.

[Bethany Mandel]

Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

I do think probably transparency at this point is the better part of valor, But I do, I think, like, it's good to have the information out. I don't think that the information being out is going to solve anything for anyone because all the conspiracy theorists are going to continue to go down whatever road they want to go down. People who are cynically using it against Trump will continue to do that. And I think whatever was there, if it could have destroyed Trump. Oh, yeah, would have been released long ago. So I'm just playing the odds here.

[Bethany Mandel]

Yep. And the emails, as we talked about in an episode last week, mostly read to me like, Jeffrey Epstein getting advice on how to hurt Donald Trump.

[Carol Markowitz]

On how reporters.

[Bethany Mandel]

Yeah, well, reporters. Reporters in scare quotes there. Michael Wolf is. He's a political operative. And in those emails, yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

There were also New York Times reporters, like, hey, heads up. A lot of people had. And I think that's probably the story of the Epstein files, is that people who a lot of powerful people were friends with either were involved or were adjacent enough that the release of these will be embarrassing even if they didn't do things. And that's the attempt to Keep them under wraps. Much actually analogous to the Russia thing, too. I feel like Trump's behavior sometimes signals that he's more involved than he is.

[Bethany Mandel]

Right. Because he never says definitive no to something. He's always like, maybe, I don't know.

[Carol Markowitz]

We'll see.

[Bethany Mandel]

You know, is this on the table? Like, is nuking Canada on the table? Like, everything's on the table. Everything's always on the table. So it could be anything with him. It's just, I think Jeffrey Epstein's a good guy. Maybe he's a good guy. He could be a good guy. He's a bad guy. Probably a bad guy. He will cover all the ground.

[Carol Markowitz]

But I do think the backing, the release of this, probably he should have done that earlier. And it's the quickest way to get past the news story part of it, even if the conspiracy theory part of it still exists. But I. There is a part of me, too, where I don't think this is a top issue for very many people, but I do think it's more of a normie issue. Because once you have a Netflix documentary, it's a normie person issue.

[Bethany Mandel]

That's right.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yep.

[Bethany Mandel]

I think it's interesting and not great that Donald Trump isn't pointing out what you and I are pointing out, that reporters and the Michael Wolfs and whatever were giving advice to Jeffrey Epstein about how to destroy Donald Trump. I feel like somebody should put that in Donald Trump's ear so the next time he's asked about it, he can point to that and say, here's evidence of them trying to destroy me using Jeffrey Epstein. So this continues to be something that the Democrats and their media buddies, I repeat myself, want. Want to do to me. And he doesn't say that, and he should.

[Carol Markowitz]

There's also the added information that Stacey Platt Plasket, a delegate to the United States House of Representatives from the Virgin Islands who is a Democrat, was getting live help via text from Epstein while she was asking Michael Cohen, Trump's lawyer, questions in Congress. So there's a. There's a lot of working together going on here that a lot of people are probably going to be embarrassed about.

[Bethany Mandel]

Right. So he has the overarching thing, which is that Democrats are using Epstein to hurt him. He just needs the examples, I think when he is talking to the media and. Or he could truth it out, but either way, he needs to be pointing out that this is going on in the emails and that it is what is continuing to happen to him, that they are. They don't have Covid this time they, you know, they don't have Russiagate. This is the new that how do we stop Donald Trump's presidency from existing? Jeffrey Epstein's the answer for them.

[Carol Markowitz]

Trump says, I don't care all caps. All I do care about is that Republicans get back on point when he's talking about discussing economic issues, which.

[Bethany Mandel]

Yeah, that's, yeah, that's it. And you know, in that same truth, he says affordability, he puts it in quotes. But I think Republicans need to just steal affordability from the Democrats because for so long Democrats like we care about affordability. Now, they don't do anything to solve affordability, of course. And in fact, they often make things worse. So why don't Republicans talk about affordability more? I think Trump should drop the quotes, make affordability part of his platform, neutralize it for the Democrats, do his best to solve it. But I don't think it's actually a solvable thing from the government. We won't get into that on this episode. And that's it. That's the political message going into the midterms.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, I think, I mean some of the shifting on tariffs this week, it is an admission that we're going to do some work on this, even if the work is taking away the things that I did with coffee and bananas. My bad. It may change the actual prices. So maybe that'll matter to people.

[Bethany Mandel]

We'll be right back with more on normally and Hunter Biden back again.

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[Ed Helms]

Hey everyone, Ed Helms here and hi.

[Carol Markowitz]

I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of earsay, the Audible and Iheart Audiobook. Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Bethany Mandel]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

[Announcer]

You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Announcer]

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[Bethany Mandel]

You just go out and live your life.

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[Bethany Mandel]

We are back on normally to talk Hunter Biden in the year of our Lord 2025. What's up with that?

[Carol Markowitz]

I don't know. Like, this is the thing about Hunter Biden, and I realized it when he gave those crazy podcast interviews, is that he's like, his personality is perfectly crazy for this moment. An attention economy with a bunch of podcasts and he's. He's making use of that crazy personality and sort of unhinged vibe.

[Bethany Mandel]

Yeah. But I will say he's really not saying all that much. And I'm going to read the quote. The smartest man Joe Biden has ever met said quote, I'm going To get myself in trouble for saying this. No, we need to turn the temperature up. We need to turn the temperature up, and we need people to see it for what it is. And what I mean by that is I do not believe that we're going to get to the bottom until we get to the bottom. And I want to get to the bottom faster than. Through this slow kind of process of what just being picked apart a death by a thousand cuts here.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, yeah, man. What?

[Bethany Mandel]

And then he adds, I 100% do not mean violence. What I mean by turning the temperature up is we need to speak truth to power.

[Carol Markowitz]

Sure.

[Bethany Mandel]

Power is what you got.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, I gotta say, so much of the past several months feels like a replay of 2017 where it's like, ooh, huge story. Like, let's turn up the temperature. When they go low, we go to the gutter.

[Bethany Mandel]

Right, Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. You've done all this.

[Bethany Mandel]

You're in the gutter. Don't worry.

[Carol Markowitz]

We've been here before. And it's. That's not to say that the, the president should not be criticized for plenty. There's plenty to criticize him on. It's just that all the tactics feel exactly the same. And if they indeed win the House back, I'm sure they will just, like, impeach him again.

[Bethany Mandel]

Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

Question mark. And then what would that be?

[Bethany Mandel]

The fourth. Fourth time?

[Carol Markowitz]

Third time, I think.

[Bethany Mandel]

Third time. Okay.

[Carol Markowitz]

But yeah, it'll.

[Bethany Mandel]

There wasn't an actual third impeachment. I thought that there was. Yeah. All right.

[Carol Markowitz]

Third. Third time. And, you know, he'll make history again and they won't unprecedent him.

[Bethany Mandel]

We will never forget the Donald Trump presidency.

[Carol Markowitz]

And then, like, there will be a ballroom and then he'll go on his way. At some point.

[Bethany Mandel]

Yeah, they're gonna have to eventually just internalize that Donald Trump is president and will be president, and their great, great grandkids will study him in history class.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, one nice thing about Hunter Biden, I guess, is that, like, eventually he's just gonna admit to more crimes and more crazy stuff that the Biden administration did. So I don't mind him having a microphone because, yeah, eventually he'll tell me something useful.

[Bethany Mandel]

Sure. He also, he's gonna, he's gonna definitely at some point admit that the cocaine they found in the White House during the Biden administration was his. He'll be like, it was a slip up. Like, it's funny, in his latest interview, he went after Jake Tapper for conducting a text interview with Trump. And I, you know, I have to wonder about these people who probably defended Hunter and made it like, oh, you know, you can't go after the president's son and whatever. And now he's just stabbing them in the back. There's something to that for sure. The Democrats are, they, they're definitely in disarray where this kind of thing is happening in the run up to the midterms. Again, not that the Republicans are not in disarray. I think we're at our lowest point right now of the last year. Plus, so I don't know, I think that somebody's going to check Hunter Biden. I kind of look forward to seeing who that somebody is. He also went after Scott Jennings, which is ridiculous.

[Carol Markowitz]

Scott Jennings treat for Scott.

[Bethany Mandel]

Yeah, Scott Jennings could not enjoy that more. Scott Jennings is of course the sanest voice on cnn. And he basically said Scott Jennings is lying and pitching the party line on CNN and has to constantly be told that he's lying. And I mean, you're not going to get Scott Jennings. You're just not, you're not, you're Hunter Biden. You're, you just can't come after Scott Jennings.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, and he's going after, he's going after Tapper for doing a text interview. Look, one of the, one of the things you can't go after Trump or the entire admin administration for is accessibility. Yep. They are incredibly accessible. He has regular text conversations off the record and on the record with various reporters all over the spectrum. His cabinet members sit down for long form interviews regularly. So like, even when you have complaints, accessibility ain't the complaint.

[Bethany Mandel]

Right. It's rich for a Biden to be talking about accessibility.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's the thing. It's like, oh, I'm mad about this text interview. Like my dude, your dad gave like three interviews in four years. Like this is not, this is not the ground on which to be fighting. So I don't know, it's one of these things where I hate that our current environment incentivizes the Hunter Bidens of the world and that I wish he would slink away and we would never hear from him again. And also while he's talking, give me something actionable.

[Bethany Mandel]

Right?

[Carol Markowitz]

You idiot.

[Bethany Mandel]

All right, we're going to be right back with a nice and light culture segment. See you shortly on Normally, there's nothing.

[Announcer]

Like sinking into luxury. Annabe's sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. Annabe has designed the only fully machine washable sofa from top to bottom, the stain resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Anna Bay has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Sofas start at just $699 and right now get early access to Black Friday savings up to 60% off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop [e-mail] Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Ed Helms]

Hey everyone, Ed Helms here.

[Carol Markowitz]

And hi, I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Bethany Mandel]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

[Announcer]

You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet, I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Book Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Bethany Mandel]

We are back on normally with a segment about culture. Let's start off with our friend Bethany Mandel wrote a piece called I Sit in Parks. And it's, it's a very good piece. I really enjoyed it. I actually made my kids read it. That's one of the things that we're doing. But it's about Kelsea Ballerini's new song, I Sit in Parks. And the song is about Kelsey wondering if she's missed her window to have kids. And it's a very sad song and Bethany does a great job of exploring it. She says Bethany writes in just a few lines. She captures the ache of a generation of women who were told to chase freedom, ambition and self discovery, but never what to do when they found themselves alone, wondering if they ran too far from the very things that would have grounded them. So yeah, that's, that's the sad story of the feminist kind of conversation that happened with women. I think that a lot of people would admit that women have been told by the feminist specifically because I, I hate the I hate the line. Society tells us. It's not society. It's never society. I often think when somebody's like society tells us, they mean my mom told.

[Carol Markowitz]

Me, yeah, that's interesting. That might be the case.

[Bethany Mandel]

And yeah, so this is not society. But there it literally was, feminists kind of constantly breaking down how pointless and terrible it is for women to get married and have babies. And you see it all the time. And this is kind of the response to that. Did I miss my window to have children? And she says in the song how she desperately wants a baby and how she is so into this. She says she sings they lay on a blanket and God damn it, he loves her. Sorry for the cursing. I wonder if she wants my freedom, like, I want to be a mother. And it's like, I can tell Kelsey, nobody is coveting her freedom.

[Carol Markowitz]

It just.

[Bethany Mandel]

I've yet to meet a mom who's like, I wish I had freedom instead of these three children over here.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, it's. It's a really. A gutting song. There's the part where she says, is it my fault for chasing things a body clock doesn't wait for. I did the damn tour. It's what I wanted, what I got. I spun around and then I stopped and wonder if I missed the mark. And I think, did I miss it? Is a question that everyone asks in.

[Bethany Mandel]

Their life at some point.

[Carol Markowitz]

Like, what door did I not go through? I ache for her because this is a vulnerable and honest way to deal with this. And she's not attacking mothers at all. A lot of people who deal with this issue go. Go at the throats of the people who live the different lifestyle. I don't wish to do that to Kelsey Ballerini, and I'm glad she's not doing it to moms.

[Bethany Mandel]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

I think she's, by the way, I think in her low 30s. So we will hope that she can. She can figure it out. But I do think it's nice to have this. Speaking of what society tells you, it's nice to have this as something young women can contemplate.

[Bethany Mandel]

Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

Wow. This woman who really seems to have it all is expressing that what she wants is not at all the very famous pop slash country star path that she's on. And she wants to add this other seemingly mundane kind of dismissed thing to what is going on in her life. And she does it, I think, really beautifully and sensitively in this song.

[Bethany Mandel]

Absolutely. I would also say if I were friends with Kelsey, I would tell her, you probably just did not want kids with your ex husband, and that's she.

[Carol Markowitz]

That may be the problem.

[Bethany Mandel]

I wish somebody would tell her that because I was positive I didn't want kids. And the truth was, I just didn't want kids with the boyfriends that I had who were, by the way, great guys. I'm always like, they were wonderful people. It's never like, I dated a jerk and that's why I didn't want to have kids with him, because he was the bad boy or whatever. No, I dated good men who were not right for me. And that could easily be her story too. She just didn't have the guy. The guy that she wanted to have kids with. I used to wake up in a cold Sweat in literally having a nightmare that I had accidentally gotten married. That doesn't happen when you marry to the right guy. And I actually have nightmares now that I didn't marry myself.

[Carol Markowitz]

You didn't get married?

[Bethany Mandel]

Yeah. Like. Like I somehow missed out on him and I let him marry somebody else.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. I'm really. I'm very sympathetic to women like Kelsey and. And to this feeling because there but for the grace of God.

[Bethany Mandel]

Sure.

[Carol Markowitz]

Do I. Yep. And, you know, it is confused. Look, living life is hard. And there. I think we. There's a lot of talk these days about having lost the script for how women are supposed to act, for how men are supposed to act, for how relationships form and marriage works. And I do think we sort of abandoned this default. And the default was. And it was for me, because I watched my mom work and have kids. In my head, I was just like, oh, yeah, I'm going to get married and have kids someday. It didn't even really occur to me until I was like in some of those relationships, Carol, where I was like, is that what I'm going to do? I don't know.

[Bethany Mandel]

Like, for some reason, I don't want your baby.

[Carol Markowitz]

My whole life, like, I had wanted that. So I was sort of prepped for it. And I don't think that's like, internalized misogyny, guys. I think that's just like, my mom lived a good life and I watched her live that good life. So we kind of lost that. And I think we're struggling with how to rediscover or reimpose the scripts such that they are.

[Bethany Mandel]

So Brad Wilcox, he is a fellow at the Institute for Family Studies. He posted a Pew poll that had high school girls interest in marriage had dropped 20 points in the last 30 years. So in 1993, 83% of high school senior girls said that they are likely to choose to get married in a lot in the long run. They're not saying, like, next year. And 76% of boys at the time said that. So it was, you know, it's always been a little lower for boys.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Bethany Mandel]

So now 61% of girls say that they are likely to get married, while the number for boys has stayed roughly the same. It went from 76 to 74. So the funny thing is, is that I think that now this might be the low for girls. I. I don't know that we get lower than 61%, which is already quite low. But I think the number for boys is going to start dropping because the boys now are getting the influence that girls used to get. And that brings us to one of the people that I consider one of the more noxious people in public life. Andrew. He tweeted this weekend about how ridiculous it is to want to be with a woman. He tweeted, once you're rich and famous and can have any girl on the planet, you realize they're all scum and you don't want a single one. Now most of the comments, what a king. Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

Wow.

[Bethany Mandel]

Most of the comments are like, you are gay. Why are you gay? You know, and that might be. He might be gay because that is definitely not a straight man thing to say. But also, you can't get every girl on the planet. You can only get the girls that would be attracted to an Andrew Tate. And that's really saying something.

[Carol Markowitz]

But I also, and, and perhaps that the secret to happiness is not getting any girl on the planet. And all of them that you want. The secret to happiness is actually much more narrowly tailored than that.

[Bethany Mandel]

Isn't that interesting?

[Carol Markowitz]

He's preaching the opposite. And when he gets to the end of the road of the opposite, he finds nothing he likes interesting.

[Bethany Mandel]

Yeah, funny that. You know, with the Bethany article, I said when I, when I read, when I had my kids read the article and I was discussing it with my 12 year old son, he said, you know, the article was sad, but it didn't concern me. I'm not going to fall for the feminist messaging of the age. And I know there can be people who are going to be like, yeah, right, your 12 year old son said that. I swear this is my 12 year old son.

[Carol Markowitz]

We both have a 12 year old who talks like that.

[Bethany Mandel]

Yes, they are weirdos. I don't know.

[Carol Markowitz]

Where do they get it from?

[Bethany Mandel]

I don't know. It wasn't how I talked when I was 12. But okay. But yeah, he, you know, so he was like, I'm not going to fall for this feminist messaging. Don't worry. And I do worry. I do worry that the Andrew Tates of the world are going to reach him and tell him that all girls are scum. And that is something that people need to be concerned with, especially on the right, because he is coming for the boys. Him, Nick Fuentes, another, another guy who frequently talks about how pointless it is to get married and how women are terrible, how awful women are the worst, and how he remains a single man. These are all people that you need to worry about them influencing our young boys.

[Carol Markowitz]

I do think we have sort of lost our way. Look, there's always been A war between the sexes. Obviously we're very different. Mars, Venus, et cetera. Yeah, it's always, it has always been thus. But I do think our, at least in the political realms, our conversations about these things are just driving men and women apart. And then you see, in other areas, I notice my Instagram feed is much better at bringing men and women together. There's a lot of solid, like, how do you be a better husband Content. How do you be a better wife? Content.

[Bethany Mandel]

You should object.

[Carol Markowitz]

You should objectify your husband more often. Wives content like Christian nice dad content. Secular nice dad content. Like, there's a lot of like, like, let's try not to hate each other content. Whereas on X you're like, wow, yeah, a lot of you really dislike the opposite right gender a lot. Not that there are only two genders. I know.

[Bethany Mandel]

We'Re very heteronormative on the show. There are actually only two genders.

[Carol Markowitz]

But Bill Ackman, I feel like, is trying to. To give us some tips. What was his plan for getting the ladies and the guys together?

[Bethany Mandel]

He says, I hear from many young men that they find it difficult to meet young women in a public setting. In other words, the online culture has destroyed the ability to spontaneously meet strangers. As such, I thought I would share a few words that I used in my youth to meet someone that I found compelling. I would ask, may I meet you? Before engaging further in a conversation. I almost never got a no. And he goes on and on. But the may I meet you? Became just an Internet meme sensation over the weekend. People mocked it relentlessly. It's. It is an old fashioned way of talking formulation. You know, may I meet you? Has very hello, dear. You know, which is what scammers say to people on the Internet. Any, any message that starts, hello dear, online is somebody trying to steal something from you? And may I meet you? Just has this old fashioned, not current at all way about it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, like you're gonna get the Gen Z stare for sure after that one. But I do think there's something to I. My hope for this phrase is that it becomes like a joke for the terminally online and then the terminally online actually take it into the real world and they make space between each other about may I meet you? And then all of a sudden we have almost real marriages of people meeting. No, but I, I do think there is a thing where people have lost the ability to speak to each other in public.

[Bethany Mandel]

I agree.

[Carol Markowitz]

A. A thing that I like. And who knows how Gen Z women would react but I always thought it was classy when someone would send a drink across the bar and they would just like not a lot of expectations, just like just send it off. And I always thought that was kind of cool. It gives you a little entree. It does. And maybe that would like totally freak out Gen Z. I don't know. But they do. We do need.

[Bethany Mandel]

I'm afraid of what's gonna happen when this comes out. And Mary Kathryn Ham suggests sending a drink across the bar. May I meet you?

[Carol Markowitz]

Nice react with May I meet you Written about it. No, there's like again losing the script for how humanity communicates with each other. I appreciate Bill Ackman attempt to get us to some way of doing that.

[Bethany Mandel]

At least fun fun was had.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. And our, our weird 12 year olds can tell everybody how to talk to each other.

[Bethany Mandel]

Yep.

[Carol Markowitz]

They're not shy.

[Bethany Mandel]

They'll, they'll, they'll definitely be sending drinks.

[Carol Markowitz]

And saying may I meet you in the future. Men and women, we gotta pull it together, y'. All.

[Bethany Mandel]

We really do. Let's fix this. Thanks for joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anyway where you get your podcasts, get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

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[Carol Markowitz]

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[Bethany Mandel]

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