Normally Podcast: GOP Challenges, Election Day Insights, and Media Controversies

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Normally" Podcast – GOP Challenges, Election Day Insights, and Media Controversies

Show: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show (Featuring Mary Katharine Ham & Carol Markowitz on "Normally")
Date: November 4, 2025
Episode Theme:
This episode, airing the day of key off-year elections, delves into the state of GOP prospects in blue and purple areas, Election Day expectations, media controversies on the right, the Nick Fuentes/Tucker Carlson/Heritage Foundation scandal, and the importance of standing up for civil behavior—especially in the aftermath of public tragedies. With their characteristic blend of intelligence, humor, and candidness, Mary Katharine and Carol analyze challenging topics facing both the Republican Party and the broader right-of-center media ecosystem.

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1. Election Day Dynamics & GOP Challenges

[02:38–12:00]

Election Hangover and Parental Halloween Recap

• Opening banter about Halloween, the mess it leaves behind, and transitions into the “other holiday”: Election Day.

State of Play for Republicans

• Carol admits: “It's not looking very good… if it's even close, I think Republicans should be happy about that” (05:00).
• Races discussed:
  • New Jersey & New York City: Deep blue, tough territory for Republicans.
  • Virginia: “A purpley angry state that's mad about the shutdown right now… these are not going to be easy for Republicans.” (05:00)
  • Note on conflicting early voting numbers and the challenge of realigning rural turnout.
  • GOP’s struggle to match urban surges, but Glenn Youngkin’s efforts highlighted as real advancements for the VA GOP.
  • “Youngkin’s great contribution to the Virginia GOP… is to have increased the party's capabilities when it comes to getting people out to vote…” – Mary Katharine (05:38).

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2. Key Races and Ballot Measures

[07:49–11:17]

• Detailed look at:
  • Virginia AG race: Need for Republicans to keep things close (“Keep it tight” stats—if Spanberger doesn’t get a big margin, the AG race could go red).
  • Cuomo in NYC: Running on a third-party line, has bad ballot placement. “You have to find Andrew Cuomo on his weird third-party line.” – Carol (07:49)
  • Republican turnout challenges: Discusses how the demographic shifts mean GOP has to mobilize less reliable voters, especially suburban men.
  • Notable absentee of dominant national ballot themes—no big “abortion referendum”-style amendments this cycle.
  • Unique statewide ballot measures: California redistricting, Texas voting/citizenship amendment, Maine gun laws.

Notable Quote

• “Republicans need to put a voting booth in the toilet paper aisle where you buy like the single pack of toilet paper that single men go for.” – Carol Markowitz (08:42)

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3. National Messaging & Obama’s Effect

[11:17–13:56]

• Obama’s late-inning campaign appearances, and the myth of his coattails debated.
  • “It is such a myth that he has coattails… while he was in office, you guys lost thousands of seats where he was speaking.” – Mary Katharine (11:54)
• The importance of these state races as a preview for the midterms: “If it’s close, that’s very good for Republicans.” – Carol (12:44)

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4. Controversies – Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes & Heritage Foundation

[20:09–33:16]

The Right’s Internal Debates and the Fuentes Uproar

Tucker Carlson & Platforming Extremism

• Discussion of Tucker Carlson giving “white supremacist” Nick Fuentes a platform with “softball questions.”
• Carol’s frustration: “This story would have maybe started to die down… but then the Heritage Foundation has entered this debate.” (20:48)
• Heritage’s President Kevin Roberts steps in, issuing a statement and video supporting Carlson—sparking controversy for defending him against a “venomous coalition” (23:29).

Kevin Roberts’ Video – Reaction

• “We will always defend America and we will always defend our friends against the slander of bad actors who serve someone else's agenda… including Tucker Carlson.” (23:29)
• Carol: “It’s a really dark kind of phrasing, and I think a lot of people were shocked… the backlash to this has been swift and I just love to see it.” (23:53)

Conservative Pushback

• Mary Katharine highlights nearly unanimous conservative condemnation of Fuentes' platforming, but nobody called for outright cancellation of Tucker: “Zero. People said that who was trying to cancel him.” (25:34)
• Points out the distinction between allowing speech and actively elevating voices like Fuentes.
• “If someone wishes to host him, please grill him. And I know you're smart enough to do it.” – Mary Katharine (25:54)

“No Enemies to the Right” Rejected

• Tweet referenced (Joel Berry): “It’s a major white pill… the Heritage foundation gave ‘no Enemies to the Right’ a mainstream test drive this week. And it blew up in their faces because the American right still has a conscience and a moral compass.” (32:02)
• Comparison to the left’s reaction to extremism: “The left encouraged two years of abject pro-jihad support and terrorism to thrive without ever putting its foot down. I’m so glad we’re not doing the same…” – Abe Greenwald (32:35)

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5. Generational & Ideological Shifts

[33:16–34:11]

• On shifting attitudes toward Israel among younger voters, and the enduring alliance between the US and Israel—Mary Katharine and Carol both expressing concern about the future.
• “I am not worried about Israel. I'm worried about America. When I hear the Tuckers and the Fuentes, I'm not like, 'Oh God, Israel is going to suffer because of this.' I think America is going to suffer…” – Carol Markowitz (33:51)

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6. Widow Defense & Harassment After Tragedy

[38:25–41:59]

• Energetic defense of Erica Kirk (widow of murdered conservative leader Charlie Kirk), who’s facing online attacks and ugly rumors.
• Mary Katharine (herself a widow): “People really feel free to speculate about you, to question your motives… She is now legally the inheritor of his legacy… that makes perfect sense.” (38:39)
• Both hosts highlight the added difficulty Erica faces protecting her husband's organization (Turning Point USA) from right-wing extremists trying to hijack it after his death.
• “We are absolutely not going to stand for any Erica Kirk bashing.” – Carol Markowitz (41:03)

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7. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Humor & Humanity

• “I let them do their own thing… my four year old, I don’t know if I mentioned, was poop. She was poop. Yep.” – Mary Katharine Ham on Halloween costumes (04:04)
• “Republicans need to put a voting booth in the toilet paper aisle…” – Carol Markowitz (08:42)

Cutting Analysis

• “Obama… split us apart in a way that we haven’t been able to recover from. It wasn’t George W. Bush. It was Barack Obama.” – Carol (11:24)
• “We will always defend America and… Tucker Carlson… The venomous coalition attacking him are sowing division.” – Kevin Roberts (23:29)

Moral Stand

• “The American right still has a conscience and a moral compass. Praise Christ the King for small mercies.” – Joel Berry via Carol (32:02)

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8. Timestamps for Key Segments

• Election Day Overview: 02:38–12:00
• National & State/Local Races: 07:49–13:56
• Media Controversies (Fuentes, Tucker, Heritage): 20:09–33:16
• Generational Shifts/Israel: 33:16–34:11
• Erica Kirk Defense: 38:25–41:59

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Overall Tone

Mixing lighthearted banter with serious, critical political analysis, the episode weaves together election strategy, ideological rifts on the right, and the challenges of maintaining decency in public discourse. The hosts' candor, willingness to critique their own side, and authentic humor make it accessible even to listeners catching up for the first time.

Transcript

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[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Hey, guys. We are back on normally the show with normal, which takes for when the news gets weird. I am Mary Kathryn Ham.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I'm Carol Markowitz. Mary Kathryn, is Halloween your favorite holiday?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

It's not my favorite holiday, but it's second to Christmas.

[Carol Markowitz]

Second to Christmas. That makes sense. Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

It's like, very close.

[Carol Markowitz]

You really bring it.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I try.

[Carol Markowitz]

I mean, over the years, your costume's just incredible. I didn't know who you were this last one, but a lot of people were very impressed with you after I posted the picture of us together on my Instagram.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Well, I'm so glad. Yes, we were. For those who didn't see the picture, we'll put it on our socials. But we were two of the characters from the great British baking show, so Pru and Noel, my husband and I. The thing is, I inexplicably found a man who is very into the same things I'm into. So that was like. One of the reasons we got together is when we first started dating. I was like, wait, you want to put together a costume? I want to put together a costume. Let's do it together.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

So Mr. Giant Shoulders in the gym all the time is like, yes, I will nitpick your costume for accuracy. He's a cosplay dude.

[Carol Markowitz]

He's so awesome. I mean, I. I have only met your husband a few times, but I just. Every time he's around, he is so much fun. And you guys are just fantastic together.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

He's a good dude. He's a good dude. So, yeah, we pulled it off. The kids kind of freelanced this year, so I let them do their own thing. And my four year old, I don't know if I mentioned, was poop. Yep.

[Commercial Voice (Meaningful Beauty)]

I love it.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

She was poop. Yep.

[Carol Markowitz]

She picked it and she wanted it, and you guys are awesome.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

We made it happen. So anyway.

[Carol Markowitz]

All right, well, Halloween is over. I felt like even though it was only Friday, it went on through the weekend. I feel like everybody was just drunk and high on chocolate. I picked up all the wrappers around my house on Saturday and then did it all again on Sunday. I don't know where they blew in.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

From, but yeah, it's. Well, my. My husband is also. He's like a sweetsaholic. We don't really keep stuff in the house in general, so when Halloween hits like you got. He handed out the candy a couple years in a row, and I would come back to the house and be like, what's wrong with you? And he had just OD'd.

[Carol Markowitz]

One for the child, one for me.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Handful for the kids, but we don't leave them alone with it anymore, so.

[Carol Markowitz]

Okay, well, we're on to the next holiday, which, of course is Election Day.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

That's right.

[Carol Markowitz]

We are recording it the day before Election Day. This will be released on election Day across the country. And it's not looking very good. It's not. But I will say, and I said this on the show, I think, last episode or two episodes ago, if it's even close. I think Republicans should be happy about that. It is tough times out there for Republicans in these particular races. Two are in deep blue New Jersey and New York City. Very deep blue. One is in a purpley angry state that's mad about the shutdown right now, which is, of course, your home state of Virginia. These are not going to be easy for Republicans.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

No. And I'm getting wildly conflicting messages about early voting and turnout that I'm trying to reconcile with each other. Look, I will say that even though it is an uphill battle in Virginia, Republicans are making a good showing, certainly a respectable showing in the early voting totals compared to other years. Youngkin's great contribution to the Virginia gop, among many other things. He's been a very good governor, but is to have increased the party's capabilities when it comes to getting people out to vote, when it comes to running up totals in rural areas, which had not been done well previous to that, particularly trying to answer the urban surges during the Obama years. So I do think I. I saw somebody say that in all the polling that shows, obviously we'd like the AG race to turn out a Republican win just to keep the guy who wants me and my children dead off of public office.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Who, by the way, was on stage at the Obama rally. Right. Obama's like, we should be able to disagree without disrespecting each other. And then there's Mr. Kill Everybody. Anyway, we'd like that to be a win. I saw a stat that was encouraging that is like, if Spanberger, who's the top of the ticket, doesn't win by 11 plus, the AG race goes Republican. She can't drag him across the line. So if we could keep it tight. Keep it tight.

[Carol Markowitz]

Is she pulling 11 plus? I feel like everything I've seen has her seven or eight.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah, it's. It's more like kissing double digits, but not quite there.

[Carol Markowitz]

Okay. All right, Virginia, you know what to do? New York City. I just, I have so many friends who are so hopeful that Cuomo is going to pull it out. And I mean, maybe every time, you know, like you, I'm parsing these early vote totals, like, oh look, the Hasidic Jewish communities have really come out in the early voting days. And, but like, I don't know, that city's super blue. I think a lot of people walk into the booth and vote either Republican or Democrat. And Cuomo's running on the third party line. Like we had to like my mom and be like, you can't go in and vote Republican. You have to vote. You have to find Andrew Cuomo on his weird third party line.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

That's part of it. His ballot placement is very bad. He's stuck in the middle of a second row.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I should also note that for Republicans, and this is something that again, Youngkin has worked on correcting for, but for Republicans, because of the realignment of the kind of voters Republicans get now Republicans have lower propensity voters, which means they are less likely to come out in an off year election. The suburban moms are the put it on your calendar. Do all the things, make sure that we show up every single time there's a vote. Young male, new voters not as likely to be showing up every time. So that is a sort of a, an evolution in the party that does cause problems in these off year elections if you're not working really hard to get people out. And credit to Youngkin and Scott Pressler and others who do the hard work on the ground to make that happen.

[Carol Markowitz]

Absolutely. Republicans need to put a voting booth in the toilet paper aisle where you buy like the single pack of toilet paper that single men go for. Like because again, suburban moms ordering it on Amazon, getting like a four month.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Pack, you know, and then like the single heat up meals like those are, that's, this is our, this is our area. I should note also just for yalls education that California is of course considering Proposition 50. That's their, their, their constitutional amendment to change the way that they do redistricting so that they can have more Democratic seats. Voters in Texas will decide whether to amend the Constitution to say that persons who are not citizens of the United States cannot vote in Texas. I'm sure the libs find this very controversial. In Maine they're doing some voting changes. There's a gun law question on Maine's ballot. Parental rights in Texas, an amendment that would affirm that parents are the primary decision makers for their children. And a Couple like environmental things, other places, but those are the, Nothing is dominating the ballot measures this year. There's no big theme. Like there's in the past it's been abortion related stuff.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

This year, not a big theme.

[Carol Markowitz]

I think it's just to hate Donald Trump. If so, come vote for the Democrats. That's, that's where they are right now, which is not a bad place to be because a lot of these people do hate Donald Trump and want to send a message. So there, there will be that message. I think I mentioned in a previous episode that Miami is having an election and a, I don't want to call her far left because it does dilute the term because she's not an aoc, she's not a Zoran Mamdani. But for Florida, she's pretty left, is leading in the polls and there's like.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Is this a mayoral race?

[Carol Markowitz]

It's a mayoral race. It's different than New York City because Miami has like six mayors and it's not just, you know, she's going to run like three neighborhoods basically if she wins. But it's still important. But there's like 10 candidates running and one of them is endorsed by Ron DeSantis. It looks like this woman Eileen versus I believe his name is Gonzalez are going to be in a runoff together. And then at that point it's also a nonpartisan election. I should note they're not running on party lines, so it's different. But again, if a liberal or a leftist or whatever, somewhere in between wins Mayor of Miami, that does kind of slow down Republican momentum going into the midterms. It's a small nothing race, but it sends a message that the Democrats, who have been massively unpopular in the last year maybe are mounting a little bit of a come back.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah, we shall see. I, I'm interested in what do you think of Obama showing up at the end in New Jersey? He went to New Jersey too, right?

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, he did. Yeah. You know, like you said, his whole like, we have to be better to each other thing, like, I see him as the most divisive president. He was the one who, I feel like split us apart in a way that we haven't been able to recover from. It wasn't George W. Bush. It was not George W. Bush who did that. It was Barack Obama.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I don't know.

[Carol Markowitz]

I guess it means that they think it's closer, but if it's not close, is he not going to, I, I don't know.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I, I, the thing about him is I, it's such a myth that he has coattails.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

He is, he is an important figure in their party, but he has never really brought people across the line in the way that they sort of pretend he does when they're like, we're bringing in the big guns. And it's like, okay, but while he was in office, you guys lost thousands, lots of things. Thousands of seats where he was speaking. And then I think, for me, I've always frequently seen through Obama's rhetoric about how we should all be good to each other, but standing on the stage and giving that spiel, the same stage that the AG nominee who wants to shoot the speaker of the House and Republican speaker of the House in Virginia, like, okay, enough, enough, sir. I like that. It means they are nervous.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's closer, right?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah, it's closer than they want it to be.

[Carol Markowitz]

Which, again, would be huge. All of the, all of these races matter, obviously, for the people living in those places. But on a national level, what these races matter for really is to see where the midterms are headed. And I think they'll give us a little bit of a preview. Again, it's probably going to be a Democratic sweep, but it has to be a Democratic sweep. If it's not a Democratic sweep. Democrats in a world of hurt going into the midterms. Again, if it's close, that that's very good for Republicans.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Can I also say, too, by the way, Winsome Sears has been doing the work on the ground. She's been trying to take advantage of all these insane Northern Virginia school board policies, which are just awful. There's tons of controversies going on. Our Soros funded prosecutor in my county that just lets people out willy nilly. All of that stuff shouldn't do that. I would, I would like to say I read a New Yorker piece that was like, Abigail Spanberger thinks that Democrats need to listen more. And it's like, okay, again, she's posing as the normie savior. And I think that if she wins, it's not by virtue of being Normie. Unless by being Normie, you just mean she's not Mamdani.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. That's gonna be a low bar that a lot of Democrats are gonna celebrate clearing.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah. Because I don't think she actually wants to listen.

[Carol Markowitz]

Mm.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

She hasn't moderated on gender issues. She hasn't been willing to speak up about any of these controversies. Things that are, again, 80, 20 issues.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

She just keeps her mouth shut. She wants the state to be a sanctuary state at some level. She's like, doesn't want to cut that off.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And then she was asked this weekend if she would work with Trump on, like, job development and, like, making sure that Virginians have jobs. Here's her answer to that. You position yourself as a consensus builder, someone who works across the aisle. Would you work with President Trump on areas like job creation?

[Podcast Trailer Narrator]

I think that, you know, you don't.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Work with the arsonist who burns down the house to rebuild it.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator]

And in this particular case, the individual.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Who'S responsible for an absolute attack on.

[Carol Markowitz]

The federal workforce is not the right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Person to help rebuild our economy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Are you going to work with Donald Trump? No. No, definitely not.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And a lot of her sort of mythos, she did win in a swing district in Virginia that had a lot of rural area in it. But I have been surprised how unimpressive she is on the trail at moments like this. And her whole claim to fame is that in 2020, in a private discussion with Democrats, she said, like, we need to lean away from this defund the police craziness. Yeah, good point, Representative Spanberger. That was a leaked conversation. She didn't say that out loud. Like, I just think her creds in the normie area are not as strong as people will suggest they are.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's funny because it's usually for Democrats, it's like the private conversations are further to the left. She has to pretend to be more of a leftist than she is to get elected. That's great.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I'm normal. Private. Anyway, we will keep updated on those results when we have them.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, we'll be right back with more on normally.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here.

[Kevin Roberts]

And hi, I'm Kal Penn, and we're.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

The hosts of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Carol Markowitz]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to Earsay the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Carol Markowitz]

We are back on normally with a little infighting on the right, although I don't love the way that sounds because I don't consider some of the people involved to be on the right anymore. Or ever really. Last episode we talked about Tucker Carlson having white supremacist Nick Fuentes. I don't even know what to call him. White supremacist, just racist, anti Semitic, very misogynistic, just a gross human. On his show. He softballed Tucker, gave him softball questions, and really kind of tried to normalize Fuentes. This story would have maybe started to die down. I mean, how long can we talk about a podcaster having another podcaster on his show? Tucker's been heading in a really dark direction, as I like to say. I was a big fan of Tucker when he was a conservative. I don't really see any conservative values from him anymore. He makes fun of Trump administration accomplishments like no boys and girls sports, or he opposed the strike on Iran, which, listen, I get it, you could oppose, but he thinks there was a failure. And I'm sorry, it just. There's no way you could see it like that. The new news that happened is the Heritage foundation, which is a storied conservative organization, has into this debate this story.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah. And Heritage, by the way, sort of got it. Is known best. Or it's sort of its origin story was that a couple of conservatives were like, we need something that actually creates policy that so that if there's someone ever elected who's conservative while we're in the wilderness in the late 70s, we could be able to hand them something. And that something was a lot of the architecture for Reagan's term. Not that Reagan, of course, didn't have his own idea ideas, but there was, there was a blueprint handed out that was like called the Mandate for Leadership. Controversially renamed Project 2025 from the very boring version that they used to call it. So mandate for leadership was like sort of like an underpinning of Reagan's years. And so that has been the jumping off point for the rest of Heritage history. But Heritage has undergone evolution as the Republican Party and the conservative movement has undergone evolution. And this seems like an evolution I'm not excited about.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. So Kevin Roberts is the current president of Heritage and Heritage Action, and I really like him. I am not in any way anti Kevin Roberts. I thought he was doing a fantastic job at Heritage. I get the criticisms of Project 2025, but I thought a lot of it was really smart. It's crazy to me that we're having this conversation about Kevin Roberts, because I always saw him as such a kind of. Not middle of the road. That's the wrong term. Very. Again, maybe normal. Maybe normal is the way to go here. I saw him as a normal guy. So what he did on Friday is he put out a video and he tweeted, I'm sorry, it wasn't Friday, it was Thursday. He said. There's been speculation that Heritage is distancing itself from Tucker Carlson over the past 24 hours. I want to put that to rest right now. Here are my thoughts. And he just said such inflammatory things. Let's roll a clip that I think was particularly inflammatory.

[Kevin Roberts]

We will always defend America and we will always defend our friends against the slander of bad actors who serve someone else's agenda. That includes Tucker Carlson, who remains, and as I have said before, always will be, a close friend of the Heritage Foundation. The venomous coalition attacking him are sowing division. Their attempt to cancel him will fail.

[Carol Markowitz]

The venomous coalition who serve somebody else's interests. It's a really dark kind of phrasing, and I think a lot of people were shocked at it. The thing is, and what I've loved so much about being a conservative, always. But really, in the last week when this bubbled up, when Fuentes went on Tucker's show, it was near unanimous condemnation from conservatives. Of course, there are some who are like, you know, let's hear the crazy white supremacist who hated Charlie Kirk and tried to get people to not vote for Donald Trump in this last election. Let's hear him out. And I don't think the hearing him out is the problem so much as he went completely unchallenged by Tucker Carlson, because Tucker himself has gone down this terrible road where he's obsessed with Jews and with Israel and all of his shows. And all of his newsletters are only and always about this. So for Kevin Roberts to get into this and say, we will stand by Tucker no matter what he says was just a crazy thing to do. And the backlash to this has been swift and I just love to see it.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah. And apparently what triggered this was someone took down an internal webpage, or not an internal web page, but not a, like, not an important part of the website, but something that referenced. Yeah. Carlson on the Heritage website. And then there was this, like, they felt the need to set the record straight while all of us were setting the record straight. That, like, probably hosting.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

White nationalists is not a great idea. Now, important for the right. Also, not just the standing up on this, but I didn't see one person call for Tucker to not have a platform.

[Carol Markowitz]

Zero. People said that who was trying to cancel him.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

There are people are saying that. What they are saying is like, look, I wouldn't make the decision to have Fuentes on my show. I don't think it's good to elevate people like him. I want my guardrails, like, way out here with a lot of allowable speech. But, like, I'm not hosting that. Okay.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. And if I did this, I could ask difficult questions.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

If someone wishes to host him, please grill him. And I know you're smart enough to do it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

So it was to me, an un. An unforced error. But telling that the head of Heritage foundation felt the need to stand up on this point. And he said, you know, I find some of Fuentes views abhorrent, but, like, we don't sort of shut off discussion. And it's like, okay, the other thing is Tucker's whole thing is saying the rest of us are wrong about everything.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

If indeed we are on the same side, which as you point out, it feels very much not like that, then why is he not in trouble for coming at everybody else?

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

It's only one side. Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

And this has been the point also on the Tucker Fuentes interview, Tucker said that he hates Christian Zionists. And again, Charlie Kirk was murdered not even two months ago. And he was. I think he was the most famous Christian Zionist in the country. Like, I can't think of anybody bigger than Charlie Kirk on Christian Zionism. What is Tucker saying here? And it's just. It's mind boggling. Well, and the fact that he could so often say all these people on the right, he hates this person and he hates this person, and he hates this person and he hates this person, and that's not sowing division. Somehow that's a problem.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Well, and also to that point, let me commend Dana Lasch.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, she's amazing, which is so great.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Who is a conservative who has worked with Heritage forever, as many of us have. And she went to them and said to her contacts over there, like, get him on the show so that I can talk to him and ask him what you guys are doing. Because this is one of these things that can feel very in the weeds. And it is. Right. Like, this is. Yeah, this is an online conversation, a movement conversation, not a normie conversation. However, what happens in these fights dictates what flows downstream eventually. So that's the fight we're having. Dana Lash was in the fight, and she had a question about exactly what were you. You were saying for Kevin Roberts, and this was his response.

[Kevin Roberts]

What we're trying to do is eliminate that kind of venom, both directions.

[Commercial Voice (Meaningful Beauty)]

Is it venomous to say that you hate Christian Zionists?

[Kevin Roberts]

Oh, of course it is. I mean, I've been really clear not just yesterday and today, but my entire career. And the Heritage certainly has in its entire existence, that those kinds of things are just abhorrent. I was, I said that literally yesterday.

[Carol Markowitz]

Because Tucker said those things. So that would be. I mean, is that not so in division?

[Kevin Roberts]

It's certainly not helpful, but it doesn't mean that he ought to be canceled because it.

[Carol Markowitz]

In fact, that's not the question. It's not whether he should be canceled. Is that so individual decision to say things like that.

[Kevin Roberts]

Oh, certainly. And a lot of our friends minds. But the point.

[Commercial Voice (Meaningful Beauty)]

But you didn't put that in your.

[Carol Markowitz]

Statement, though.

[Kevin Roberts]

Because the, the proximity or the context for the statement was something very different. And that was, as we were talking about a few minutes ago, all of the pressure that Heritage was receiving to cancel Tucker, which is just not. We wouldn't do that to you. We wouldn't do that to him.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's the question. He also seemed very surprised by many of the things that she brought up that Tucker has said, which led people to believe that he didn't write the video, he didn't write the text for the video, and then his chief of staff was moved to some other part of Heritage foundation, and people like, oh, maybe that's who wrote it. Again, you're right. This is so in the weeds. But another defense of Tucker that I keep seeing online is, why are we wasting time talking about this? We have real issues. We have a real fight with the left. And again, I say take this up with Tucker Carlson Why is he not talking about any of the issues that we have with the left? Why is he constantly, constantly only going after people on the right? And why is he constantly only talking about Israel, only talking about Jews, making that the focal point of every single episode? It's just there's something about that that is dark. And I think that you, you can't ignore that and pretend that we're the ones who keep talking about Tucker. No, he's the one who keeps bringing the conversation back to this. And I'll also say Tucker does these newsletters now, and the newsletters are almost entirely about Israel or Jews. So on today's newsletter, the headline is, Trump threatens to defund Nigeria if Christian killings continue. Now you would think Tucker Carlson, self proclaimed Christian would be for this. He doesn't come off as super for defunding Nigeria. In fact, guess what? He found a way to bring it back to. He says, so how come Mark Levin would label him an anti Jewish racist if he made the exact same statement about Israel? Isn't that a weird double standard? This may be hard for Levin and his ethno narcissist caucus to accept, but criticism of their beloved country has nothing to do with Judaism. Just like Trump's statement on Nigeria is not an attack on blacks, it's about putting America first. Christians are being slaughtered. And this is what your argument is. It just, there's nothing conservative going on here.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Well, and I think you could deploy the same bandwidth and attention argument against Roberts, who I think probably has learned a lesson from this, that maybe the one straight to camera video you do in a week shouldn't be about this.

[Commercial Announcer]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

That's it, really, that's what it signaled to me is like, oh, this is a very big deal to him that he did this video. And I think part of that, again, this is the struggle. Part of that is because there is a young cohort of right leaning young people that I think misguidedly, some people are thinking the only way to keep these people.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

In the movement is to host this guy. And I'm like, no, no, no. Perhaps we should host better people and this.

[Carol Markowitz]

Or argue about this guy. Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

The vacuum left by Charlie Kirk is so damaging because he was the model for that.

[Carol Markowitz]

You're absolutely right. All right, I'm going to end with, with two white pills, as the kids say. And one of them actually tweets actually contain, contains the phrase white pill. This one's from Joel Berry. He says it's a major white pill, which means a positive thing that the Heritage foundation gave no Enemies to the Right, a mainstream test drive this week. And it blew up in their faces because the American right still has a conscience and a moral compass. Praise Christ the King for small mercies. And I just, you know, I love that so much because again, I, I wasn't sure how it was going to go. I, I wasn't sure that the right was going to say absolutely not, not on our watch. Tucker is a very popular figure. I have said it before, but he is very personable. I really used to like him and care about him a lot. I understand that impulse from other people, but he is leading us down a dangerous path. The other tweet similar to this is from Abe Greenwald. He says the right responded to half a dozen Jew hating podcasters and one think tank president with overwhelming and immediate condemnation. The left encouraged two years of abject pro jihad support and terrorism to thrive without ever putting its foot down. I'm so glad we're not doing the same as the left has done here.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Well, and I wanna say also just in a general sense, because of the generational change in views on Israel, which may be recovered at some point. Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

Who knows?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

But the lasting victory of Israel from seven fronts during the past two years, pretty good. Supported by President Trump, really important for moving forward if in fact the public support of them changes in these coming generations. And, you know, there can be work to do about educating people about our only, our only liberal democracy alley in the Middle East. It seems pretty important.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. All right, I'll end with this. I am not worried about Israel. I'm worried about America. When I hear the Tuckers and the Fuentes, I'm not like, oh, God, Israel is going to suffer because of this. I think America is going to suffer because of this. Israel will be just fine. Will we be just fine if we take their path? I don't know.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I mean, you can look around at the left for the last couple years.

[Carol Markowitz]

You really can not.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Great.

[Carol Markowitz]

No, no. Good. All right, we'll be right back with more on normally.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, everyone, Ed Helms here.

[Kevin Roberts]

And hi, I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay, the Audible and.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I Heart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the Iheart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Carol Markowitz]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Here.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Carol Markowitz]

We are back on normally where Erica Kirk, Charlie's widow, is getting some really gross condemnation. And we are here to say, absolutely not on our watch.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I told you guys I was gonna be a widow defense. Because it is a strange thing, particularly if you're a public figure, that people really feel free to speculate about you, to question your motives. I got this after my husband died in 2015, where people would just assume that I got jobs because, you know, like, it is gross. It's a gross thing. It happens not infrequently. This woman is now, I think, like, 55 days from having watched her husband be murdered, and people are watching her under a microscope. And I think some of it is just like, this is how this goes. Some of it is she's too public and she's too powerful. And there are people both on left and right who do not like that. But I got news for y'. All. Her name's Kirk. She's legally the inheritor of his legacy. She is now legally the inheritor of the organization that he ran. That makes perfect sense. If you don't like a lady doing that, you might get mad about it. But like, the accusations of the most recent one is somebody took a screenshot from a hug she gave Vice President J.D. vance and alleged this is inappropriate. If you watch the video, you'll know why they chose a screenshot. Because the video is like 0.7 seconds, right?

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

The hug is like, hug move. Right? But the desire is to plant these terrible seeds about this woman who is like, just trying to get through it, guys. And by the way, trying to box out forces that are bad, trying to take over her husband's legacy. She's been forced to do that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? Absolutely. We, we mentioned in the last segment that Nick Fuentes hated Charlie Kirk and the feeling was mutual. Charlie Kirk thought Nick Fuentes was bringing some of the absolute worst elements in the country out. And yeah, Erica now needs to preserve TP USA from that Fuentes wing. And Fuentes frequently talks and brags about bringing down tpusa. So this is a woman who is not only preserving her family, having to take care of her children, who watched her husband, as you said, be murdered right in front of her, she's also somebody who's has to protect this organization and she's doing the best she can. I pray for her. And we're absolutely not going to stand for any Erica Kirk bashing.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah, one, one last thought. Kyle Kulinsky was perhaps among the worst behaved. He is a liberal commentator married to crystal ball and he just went on a full day long AI disgusting display attacking her for her fake grief or what, you know, alleging that she was in affairs with people. It's so disgusting. It should be counterproductive for their movement and anyone making this kind of accusation. And I hope that it is. And he got a lot of flack for it, but the fact that he kept posting it is one of the things I dislike about the Internet, which is like more clicks meant more money for him for this disgusting stuff.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's really terrible. And I saw people on the right also engaging with it. Again, I think it's that same point as Wing engaging with it and saying, you know, she's not dressed appropriately. She needs to humble herself, she needs to be more modest. I think she should do whatever she wants to do, especially to get through this incredibly difficult time. And we are rooting for you, Erica Kirk.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

We are indeed Widow defense over here.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right. I'm back up. Well, thanks for joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

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