Normally Podcast: Immigration Wars, Free Speech Fights & 2028 Chess Moves

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Normally" — Immigration Wars, Free Speech Fights & 2028 Chess Moves

Date: December 9, 2025
Guests/Hosts: Mary Katharine Ham, Carol Markowicz
Podcast: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show (iHeartPodcasts)

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Overview

In this episode of "Normally", Mary Katharine Ham and Carol Markowicz offer their signature "normalish takes" on three intertwined themes shaping American discourse: the status of U.S. immigration policy and its political ramifications, the challenges to free speech in Europe, and the evolving strategies and personalities poised to influence the 2028 U.S. elections. Through sharp commentary, personal anecdotes, and lively banter, they unpack media narratives, dissect party strategies, and poke fun at shifting trends—always with an eye on what’s motivating politicians, press, and voters alike.

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Episode Breakdown & Key Discussion Points

1. Cold Open: Weekend Catch-Up & International Drama

Time: 02:14–04:59

• Personal Updates: The hosts start with football talk, Mary Katharine celebrating the Georgia Bulldogs’ win and the perpetual struggle of balancing sports and motherhood.
• Europeans Annoyed at Americans: Carol brings up a viral moment where Europeans criticize Americans after the White House's new National Security Strategy, signaling the U.S. is stepping back from the “world's policeman” role.
  • Key exchange:
    • Mary Katharine: “They talk junk about us all the time.” (04:59)
    • Carol: “Is this a one-way street? You must be super respectful of us.” (05:02)

2. U.S. National Security Strategy and Europe's Reaction

Time: 05:00–10:30

• Strategy Document: The new U.S. policy stresses sovereignty, self-reliance, and reduced intervention abroad.
  • Europe bristles at the tone and the shift, particularly on migration and culture—interpreted as a blunt push for Europe to defend its own interests and toughen immigration.
• Free Speech Differences: U.S. critiques European free speech limits, which have direct effects on American companies and citizens abroad.
  • Memorable Moment: Discussion of British comedian Graham Linehan’s arrest and growing American apprehension about voicing opinions in Europe.
  • Carol: “If I’m tweeting something, if I’m on vacation in Europe and I’m tweeting something, can I be arrested for it?” (05:54)
• NATO & “Tough Love”:
  • Mary Katharine observes that “tough love” from Trump led to stronger NATO independence, though she admits Trump’s methods are brusque.
  • Mary Katharine: “The NATO ability to stand up for itself has increased [due to] the tough love from Trump, who is the only person who would ever deliver it.” (06:40)
• Cultural Anxiety: The hosts lament the European debate climate, where discussing migration is taboo, likening it to stifled American discourse from a few years back.
  • Carol: “If you can’t talk about the problems, you can’t fix the problems.” (08:18)

3. Europe’s “Decline” and American Warnings

Time: 08:24–10:30

• Cultural & Social Stagnation: The discussion continues on Europe’s perceived inability to defend its values or boundaries, leading to both cultural and material loss.
• Push to the Right: Warning that suppressing discussion on migration and identity only fuels a backlash and empowers right-wing populism.
  • Carol reminisces: “I knew Brexit was going to happen when... someone posted, ‘There’s nothing special about Britain.’ Nobody is like, ‘hey, my country is nothing special.’” (09:32)

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[Ad Break]

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4. Media Reckonings: New York Times on Immigration

Time: 13:47–21:53

• NYT “Now It Can Be Told” Moment: The hosts mock the New York Times’ belated acknowledgment that Biden’s immigration policies have eroded public trust.

  • Carol: “The New York Times… let their readers be several years behind the curve, if ever.” (14:34)
  • Mary Katharine: “If you had paid attention to all of the media sources… you’d have all this information.” (14:22)

• Behind Closed Doors: The NYT reveals White House staffers foresaw border magnet effects and crisis, internally using terms like “open border” and “chaos”—terms the press avoided publicly.

  • Mary Katharine: “They all got together and decided not to call it an open border and not call it the very thing they called it in this meeting, which was chaos and a crisis.” (15:29)
  • Carol: “Anytime you can come and stay in a country, that country’s borders are open.” (16:37)

• Political Repercussions: Biden’s early policy moves (pause deportations, end “Remain in Mexico”, cut wall funding) were reactionary to Trump, not strategically planned.

  • Mary Katharine, citing Cecilia Munoz (Obama admin): “Everybody was reacting to the excesses of the Trump admin… That’s not a good enough way to make decisions.” (17:36)
  • Carol: “Just because Trump likes it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t.” (18:36)

• Media Misrepresentations: They critique the infamous “border agents whipping migrants” photo, which was, as they argue, a media lie never properly retracted.

  • Carol: “The lie was that the agents were whipping the illegals with the reins. It was a complete and total lie.” (19:12)

5. 2028 Electoral Chess: Immigration’s Lingering Bite

Time: 21:01–25:34

• Democratic Dilemmas: How will Democrats square their base’s pro-immigration stance with voter uneasiness and Biden’s record? Are they, as the NYT hints, getting a warning shot?
  • Mary Katharine: “If you do not believe the values and the borders of your country are worth defending, then why would you want any other system than this?” (22:38)
• Class Divide & Hypocrisy: Sarcastic speculation on whether left-leaning professionals would still support open borders if it were their white-collar jobs threatened.
  • Mary Katharine: “If all the immigrants who were coming in were taking white collar work from home jobs… would the overeducated… lefty graduate students be in favor of that?” (24:34)
  • Carol: “They sure wouldn’t.” (24:42)
• Republican Advantage: The GOP, though not perfect, is positioned to claim they defend borders, order, and “legal” immigration—a simple, clear appeal. After five years of unmanaged illegal entry, even legal immigration feels suspect to some Americans.
  • Carol: “Americans have soured on immigration in general because of the illegal immigration problem. And that’s a real problem.” (24:48)

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[Ad Break]

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6. 2028 Senate Races & Progressive Personalities

Time: 29:12–38:05

• Texas Senate Race: Jasmine Crockett weighs entering the Democratic primary, with discussion of her left-wing, audacious style.
  • Mary Katharine: “She’s going to have excitement, she’s going to have media coverage, she’s going to have a lot of money... by being a reality show Instagram legislator.” (30:39)
  • Republicans face a fractious primary; Democrats are tempted to swing left. The hosts caution this may win primaries but not general elections.
• Profiles in Liberal Podcasting: Introduction to Jennifer Welch, dubbed the left’s new potential “Joe Rogan.” Welch is a wealthy, Southern-accented former Bravo star turned podcast hostess, beloved by the New York Times.
  • Mary Katharine, riffing on Welch’s introduction: “She opens her podcast with ‘Patriots, gaytriots, theytriot, black triots and brown triots…’ Yikes.” (34:38)
  • The NYT's infatuation is critiqued as tone-deaf and performative, mimicking liberal fixations on personality over policy.
• Demographic Changes & Party Shifts: A brief on blue-state migration changing the Texas electorate—possibly coloring Texas purple, but slowly.
  • Mary Katharine: “Once they’ve ruined their old place, then they come to the new place… You have to keep convincing people that you’re the party that will keep Texas, Texas.” (32:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Europe’s Outrage:
  • Carol: “If you can’t talk about the problems, you can’t fix the problems.” (08:18)
• On Media & Immigration:
  • Carol: “When I referred to the border as open, which it was... I was told that was super unfair by pretty prominent liberal voices. And I maintained the whole time that liberals were trying to have it both ways.” (16:37)
  • Mary Katharine: “They all got together and decided not to call it an open border and not call it the very thing they called it in this meeting, which was chaos and a crisis.” (15:29)
• On Class & Immigration:
  • Mary Katharine: “If all of the immigrants coming in were taking white-collar work-from-home jobs, would… lefty grad students be in favor of that?” (24:34)
• On Texas Politics:
  • Mary Katharine: “She’s going to have excitement… by being a reality show Instagram legislator. Like. That’s the name of the game.” (30:39)
• On Podcasting as Electoral Outreach:
  • Mary Katharine, on Jennifer Welch: “She’s actually signaling very rich, liberal ladies. That’s with an accent.” (35:59)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------|-----------------| | Catch-up & Europe News | 02:14–04:59 | | U.S. National Security Shift | 05:00–10:30 | | Media, Immigration & NYT | 13:47–21:53 | | 2028 Elections & Border Debate | 21:01–25:34 | | Texas Senate Primary & Podcasting | 29:12–38:05 |

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Tone and Context

The episode maintains a witty, conversational tone blending skepticism, sarcasm, and exasperation at both elite media and political missteps from across the spectrum. Both hosts rely on a blend of personal anecdotes, historical reminders, and cultural commentary, using humor (“midlife gap year,” “reality show Instagram legislator”) to drive home how ideological echo chambers can cloud both parties’ ability to connect with regular voters.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode explores the cyclical nature of political denial, media “revelations,” and the class dynamics behind today’s party strategies. The hosts highlight the domestic and international consequences of narrative management—especially on immigration—and cast a critical eye toward 2028’s rising personalities. Their message is: if you want to win hearts and minds, start by acting (and thinking) “normally”—and with intellectual honesty.

Transcript

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Hey guys, we are back on normally the show with normalish takes for when the news gets weird. I am Mary Kathryn.

[B]

And I'm Carol Markowicz. How was your weekend?

[A]

Mary Katherine oh my gosh, it was great. My football team won. So I'm walking on air.

[B]

Yes, I saw that and thought of you for sure. And that would be Georgia.

[A]

The Georgia Bulldogs. Yes, they are.

[B]

Your Lions also beat the Cowboys, which was sad.

[A]

And I don't watch as much NFL as I used to because in a mom's life, you just have to choose a thing.

[B]

You got to choose. Yeah. And you've chosen college football.

[A]

I have, but I do, in theory like NFL football as well.

[B]

Yeah. Well, the weekend was exciting. I started seeing tweets about Europe, Europeans being angry at Americans. And I didn't know what was going on. And I kind of enjoyed that. It was like, we're done with you, America. This is the last straw. And I didn't know what they were talking about, and it was a lot of fun not knowing.

[A]

That's actually just the Don Draper meme, which is his underling at work, says to him in the elevator, I feel sorry for you. And he goes, I don't think about you at all.

[B]

It's like, that is just the best comeback ever, which is really how I felt about it. And I didn't want to know. But then one of my followers on Twitter, old, old time follower Keith Becker, told me that the White House put out a new document on national security strategy and the Europeans were really unhappy about it. And I read the document. I read the commentary on the document. I can't say that I understand what they're so annoyed about, but I'll tell you a little bit about it. The new document places a renewed emphasis on sovereignty, national interest and realism, basically saying it's not going to that we're not going to be the world's policeman anymore. But, you know, I think anybody who saw Donald Trump's first term or these last few months knows that's going to be a case by case basis because we are sometimes going to be the world's policemen. I think what this document wanted to do was say that America's out of the supporting the whole world and you have to stand on your own two feet. You have to get your act together. And especially for Europe, they were trying to tell them that economic security, self reliance, perhaps not letting in so many migrants, perhaps shoring up your own culture, some. All of these things would be good things. Now, of course. Look, the Trump administration is definitely a little abrasive about this kind of stuff. And I understand why Europe is annoyed at the tone shift, but I don't see a massive change here from where we've been for a while now.

[A]

Yeah. Also, like they talk Junk about us all the time.

[B]

All the time.

[A]

Like, yeah, is this a one way street? You must be super respectful of us. I parted ways with some people who thought back when J.D. vance gave that speech and included attacks on Europe's free speech.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

That. That was unnecessary sort of provocation. But it's also true. Yeah, it's true. And then it affects American corporations that have to do business in Europe. Absolutely. So if these are real problems that affect American companies and American people who might be tweeting.

[B]

Right. Well, that's the thing. Right. It's like, will it affect American people? I mean, when, when Britain arrested their comedian, Graham Lineham, I think Linehan, I think that was a real red line that they crossed. And I think Americans need to think, you know, if I'm tweeting something, if I'm on vacation in Europe and I'm tweeting something, can I be arrested for it?

[A]

You know, maybe. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, and these are, these are considerations that Americans need to take.

[A]

Yeah. I saw a story the other day about a. I think he was a Brit who came here, fired a shotgun at a range. It was online. And he was arrested when he got back home. Like our buddy Kate Rosenfield, who writes for the Free Press and Unherd and others. She did not tweet from Europe when she was there. Because of that, I don't know what they can do to me. So these things affect Americans. And I also have, even when the Trump administration is maybe too abrasive for my taste, and I'm like, is this getting us anywhere? I've been wrong about that in the past. The NATO ability to stand up for itself has increased the tough love from Trump, who is the only person who would ever deliver it. And I think that Secretary General, the NATO Secretary General guy, Mark Ruta, he, he seems to get it and he seems to talk to Trump in a way that gets it and understands that they are strengthening their, themselves by this process. And I just, I don't understand why they're so upset about that part of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now there's a part where we might, where we might be upset later that they are doing too much and we're not in charge of them anymore because.

[B]

They make bad decisions. There's the Jewish phrase, from your lips to God's ears. I don't think so.

[A]

They make bad decisions, though.

[B]

I just can't see it. I can't see them doing too much. Like they're, they're not even in the universe of doing anything right now. But for me, this comes from a real place of love. Like, I love Europe. I want Europe to be better. I want them to do better. The decline is obvious in Europe. It shouldn't be that way. It's just, you don't want these societies to fail. They are our allies. Like, there isn't this lie that, oh, we're not allied with Europe. Of course we are. Of course we are. And what has tied us to each other is our common values, our common backgrounds. All of that has mattered along the road. But they're veering. They're veering into a different place. And it's worrisome to watch it happen. Just the conversations that they're having in their countries, in Britain and France, they're. They're not where they should be. And it's still a lot of. Like, if you talk about the unchecked migration, you're racist. Like, they're still very much in the place where you can't talk about things, which is where I thought America was a few years ago. And they have to get out of that, because if you can't talk about the problems, you can't fix the problems.

[A]

Yeah. And that, I mean. I mean, you'll literally be arrested for talking about the problem. I mean, and that's. That's. The issue is. Right. It's like, because of the. The liberal sort of overweening position in Europe and Britain, is that, like, the cultural distinctions that made America and Europe and Western society great are bad, actually.

[B]

Right, Those are bad. Yeah.

[A]

And so if you think. And if your system thinks that, then you can't defend it. You have no boundaries, you have no way of bringing people into the society in a healthy fashion because you can't assert that your society's healthy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so then you just end up giving everything away.

[B]

Yep. You have. To them. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Culturally and materially. And that then means that you accept crime against your citizens, all sorts of coddling, all sorts of fraud, and then you tell everybody that it's for our own good.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And get people in jail for calling people names instead of people in jail for, like, violent assault on the streets.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's a. It's a bad deal.

[B]

It is. And look, if you're a liberal European listening, maybe we have some of those listeners. The thing that you have to think about is that it does push people to the far right. Even this isn't far right. But, you know, I knew Brexit was going to happen when I had an English friend of mine post on Facebook. There's nothing special about Britain. There's no reason that we should be separate from Europe. I'm like, nobody is like, hey, my country is nothing special. That does not fly. And they're going to choose something else, and you're pushing them away from your own politics. And I'll also add that I lived in Europe, I lived in Scotland during the Clinton years. Do not tell me this is because of Donald Trump. I also remember how they behaved towards George W. Bush, but I also remember how they thought of America during the Bill Clinton years. So don't try to tell me this is a Trump thing, that they're so mad about America. We'll be right back with some now it can be told. Be right back on normally.

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We are back on normally where the New York Times has discovered that the Biden immigration policies were not so good. Our buddy Justin Young from the amazing podcast Politics, Politics, Politics sent me this story which is titled How Biden Lost American Americans Faith in Immigration. And Justin wrote, oh man, first ballot for the now it can be Told hall of Fame.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

My goodness.

[A]

Yes, it is something else.

[B]

Something. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, I mean, look, this is the. Over and over again. If you had paid attention to all of the media sources that are regularly slandered by the New York Times, you would have all this information.

[B]

Right, right. The New York Times, yeah, they're just. They let their readers be several years behind the curve, if ever. So I don't know how anybody reads them and thinks I understand what's going on in the country or in the world based on what's in this newspaper. The X account, Blue Sky Libs makes this great point. The New York Times article repeatedly refers to the border as open and being opened under Biden. I challenge anyone to find a New York Times article that refers to an open border or while it was actually open. Yep, that's really it.

[A]

Well, so. And the new, the new revelation here, such that it is, is even more embarrassing for the New York Times because what they allege is that a bunch of staffers in the Biden campaign and then in the early days of the administration were like, this will not fly. And they held Zoom meetings, and they were like, this isn't going to work. Everybody's going to be pulled in. We're going to be a magnet. Covid. Making economies collapse elsewhere is going to bring people here. Maybe there are ways we could forestall that and prevent it. Okay. It seems like they have quotes from this actual Zoom meeting. I will assume that that actually happened, but I'm also going to assume that the New York Times had talked to these people the entire time during the administration, and they all got together and decided to not call it an open border and not call it the very thing they called it in this meeting, which was chaos and a crisis like those. Remember, we got in trouble for calling it chaos. We got in trouble for calling it a crisis. And they'd be like, no, no, no, no crisis here.

[B]

Yeah, nothing to see here. The New York Times writes Mr. Biden's policy changes, some of which were halted by the courts, were not the only causes of that early surge. The draw of the US Economy, which bounced back quickly from COVID mattered, too. But the changes signaled to migrants that the border was opening again. Former aides said now the border was closed because of the Trump administration and the idea that the Biden administration was opening the border again, again, that was something that we couldn't talk about at the time. When I referred to the borders open, which it was. It was open. Anytime you can come and stay in a country, that country's borders are open. You know, I was told that that was super unfair by pretty prominent liberal voices. And I. I maintained the whole time that liberals were trying to have it both ways, that they wanted the border to be open, but they didn want us to call it an open border.

[A]

Other things that we were scolded about, pointing out that Kamala Harris was the border czar, they're still doing this crap in this article where they say, like, oh, others say she was the border czar. She was named the border czar. Guys, we all know what border czar is. That one annoys me that they continue to lie about that one. To your point, in January, the month Mr. Biden took office, the US Border Patrol reported 75,000 encounters with migrants along the southwest border. By March, that number passed 169,000 in a month. Okay. And then it went immediately to almost zero with Trump. And what was the other lie? We gotta pass the Senate package in order to.

[B]

Oh, yeah, right.

[A]

No, you don't.

[B]

Turned out we totally didn't no, you don't.

[A]

Can I, can I also add this, this, and this to me is like the Democratic Party's problem. And that doesn't mean that people won't vote for them, but this is a problem. How was all of this formed? How was all this policy formed such that it was. Everybody was reacting to the excesses of the Trump admin, said Cecilia Munoz, who helped shape immigration policy in the Obama administration and oversaw domestic and economic policy for the Biden transition team. Soon after being sworn in, Mr. Biden issued a 100 day pause on deportations. He drastically narrowed the categories of unauthorized immigrants targeted for arrest. He directed his government to stop building the border wall. He suspended remain in Mexico. He sent draft legislation to Congress to create a citizenship pathway for people in the country illegally. He kept title 42 in place, but stopped using it to turn back children who crossed the border. We now all that, that many of those were trafficked and abused. He did this. These are, these were decisions he made. And they made them in opposition to Trump, which is not a good enough way to make decisions.

[B]

Yeah, just because Trump likes it doesn't mean you shouldn't. It just, it makes no sense. And the whole article is about the political implications of these policies. Like the policies themselves are fine, the New York Times thinks, but Trump was able to capitalize on these policies. So they're bad. That's just no way to run a government. And they, you know, they point out anger over illegal migration help return Mr. Trump to the presidency. He's enacted even more aggressive policies than those Mr. Biden first campaigned against. He draw, he has drawn outrage from Democrats by sending masked agents to target immigrants, often aided by National Guard soldiers. Now, the thing about this is that the New York Times again wants to have it both ways. They want a strong immigration policy, but they don't want masked agents who are from ICE to come deal with illegal immigrants. Like, you can't have that. You can't have an open border that we don't call an open border. Another thing in this piece at the Times, they have a picture, if you remember, from a few years ago from 2020 in Del Rio, Texas, there was a border agent pursuing some migrants on horseback. And if you recall the story, yeah, the lie at the time was that they were whipping them with the whips and it turned out to be a complete lie. The New York Times has this picture and it says the episode made headlines after photographers witnessed border guards chasing migrants on horseback. The Twitter account Brian Dougherty points out, this is revisionist history. From the New York Times. The Times claims that it made news because of the photograph of border agents chasing migrants on horseback, but that's not true. The headlines that the media concocted was that the agents were chasing the migrants. The lie was that the agents were whipping the illegals with the reins. It was a complete and total lie. The reins were used to control and direct the horses, not with the illegals. And that's the thing. The New York Times tells this lie and it doesn't clear up the lie. When, when it finally does this now it can be told. It's still kind of, oh, yeah, this was a big story because they were being chased on horseback. No, it was a big story because you lied about it.

[A]

So, yeah, no, this is infuriating. And you're right, this is about political implications. They also claim, like, he didn't really have a vision. Did you read that? Did you hear the paragraph I just read? He had a vision. This was the vision.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

They just didn't know that the vision would hurt them. And now they're mad about the vision having hurt.

[B]

They still like that. So they continue that. You know, he could have addressed the border crisis faster and eased what became a potent issue for Mr. Trump as he sought to return to the White House and justify the aggressive tactics roiling American cities today. Which begs the question, how is the Democratic candidate running this in 2028? I mean, where are we? Where I think the Democrats all raised their hands for, should we have free health care for illegal immigrants in 2020? What does this mean for 2028? Are they still going to run as the party winking at the open border? Even seeing the chaos that we've gone through in this country in the last five or so years, where the border crisis really did hit in such a way that everyday Americans felt it.

[A]

I assume that the New York Times is doing this as a warning to Democrats who are currently running so that they can get their story straight before 2026.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm not sure what the message is going to be for Democrats. I think it's real that the American public, even though fed up with Biden's policies, could sour and is probably in the process of souring on, on some of Trump's more aggressive stuff to solve the problem. Although I give you that goose meme that's like, why do we need the aggressive solution? Why do we need the aggressive solution? But how are they going to get out of this? Because, again, this goes back to the Europe discussion. If you do not believe the values and the borders of your country are worth defending.

Then why would you want any other system than this? And they just, they have no boundaries, literally and figuratively, and can't tell anyone that they actually can't come in that that's not in their ethos. It's not over educated Latinx moniker using nonsense class of leaders.

[B]

And once they're in, they absolutely cannot tell them to leave, which is the, the catch 22. You don't want to stop them at the border. You also don'. To kick them out while they're here. What do you want to do? How would you like to handle the border crisis? How would you like to handle the fact that so many people will come to the United States if our borders are open and we just can't sustain that? It's not feasible. And there used to be Democrats, including that famous right winger, Bernie Sanders, he said, you know, if you had open borders, my God, the whole, you know, the whole world would come to America. That used to be something that they used to be able to say and now they cannot say those words anymore. Even the more moderate people in their party can no longer say we can't sustain this. It'll be very interesting to see how the Gavin Newsoms of the world handle it and how what he's able to do in the debates about this in 28, like let's see where this goes.

[A]

I mean, so far it's removing people is fascism and we need our maids and landscapers.

[B]

Yeah. Which I think is cleaning the toilets apparently is the argument that they make with a straight face.

[A]

That's, that's not the argument I would make, but it doesn't sound good except to far lefty people and by the way, affluent people. This is a class issue. I saw an interesting tweet and I can't remember who it was from. It was maybe from a comment on a story that said let's pose the question if all of the immigrants who were coming in were taking white collar work from home jobs.

[B]

Of course, yes.

[A]

Would the over educated, but not that or you know, not that upwardly mobile lefty graduate students be in favor of that?

[B]

They sure wouldn't.

[A]

Suddenly they'd have boundaries.

[B]

You know they would. Yeah. All right, well, we'll see where what argument the Democrats come up for this in 28? Look, the Republicans are not always amazing on lots of things, but I think the we should have laws and standards and a pathway and a system for legal immigration is something that Republicans can pretty easily convey. And yeah, Americans have soured on immigration in general because of the illegal immigration problem. And that's a real problem. Look, I'm an immigrant. I don't want to be anti immigration, but I get the argument that we need to slow even legal immigration way down because of what we've endured in the last five years. There's millions and millions of people coming in unvetted. We have to kind of deal with that problem first.

[A]

I agree with you.

[B]

We'll be right back with more on normally and crazy leftist women on the ascent, including one who may be running for Senate in Texas. Be right back.

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We are back on normally where we are recording this as Jasmine Crockett considers whether to get into the race for U.S. senate from Texas. Now, an October poll had Crockett leading a hypothetical four way primary with her Colin Allred, James Talarico and Beto o'. Rourke. Beto has since chosen not to run. And as we go to air right now, Colin Allred has dropped out of the U.S. senate race in Texas. It will be James Talarico and maybe Jasmine Crockett if she jumps in today. What do we think, Mary Katherine?

[A]

I mean this does feel like an indication that the Afton Bain race in Nashville, which we talked about last week, we wondered whether the signal would be go hard left, go harder left and then you'll really have a shot to win in these red places. I don't think that is the right thing for the left to do, but I think that's what they want to do. And honestly, we've been in this position before as a Republican Party where during the Tea Party years it was like we're just really mad at Obama and you need to fight, fight, fight harder. I don't know what you want to fight for, but just like be more right, right? And you turn off a lot of voters that way. You win primaries, you don't win generals. So I think that Jasmine Crockett is going to end up with that problem. She's going to have excitement. She's going to have media coverage. She's going to have a lot of money. She raises a ton of money.

[B]

Right.

[A]

By being a reality show Instagram legislator. Like.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

That's the name of the game.

[B]

I would also say that she's getting into this because the Republicans in Texas are in a brutal primary. Incumbent Senator John Cornyn, State Attorney General Ken Paxton, and US Representative Wesley Hunt are all running for the seat. Paxton is favored to win that primary. I think every story I've read says that he has some skeletons in the closet that the Democrats are hoping to take advantage of. There's definitely a sign here for Democrats in Texas that this is the moment. And that's the only reason someone like Jasmine Crockett would be the candidate for them. I still don't think she pulls it out in Texas, but my goodness, if she does, somehow, My gosh, no.

[A]

But it's also interesting because the Talarico and the Allred of it all, those guys are more moderate, signaling. So James Talarico is a state representative. Young, youngish guy, looks younger than he is. He looks very young, but he's, you know, evangelical Christian, speaks about faith campaigns from the. The tailgate of his pickup. You know, he does the thing. She's. She feels much more Beto o'. Rourke. Like, I bring in a lot of money, I get Vogue covers, and I can't really do the thing where I pretend to be moderate.

[B]

Well, Beto Beto ran as a moderate against Ted Cruz. I think that's like, when he ran for president, he ran as a completely different Beto.

[A]

That's true. That's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Original Beto was more moderate and original beta. Yeah, that's a smarter approach. It's not an approach that Crockett is going to even attempt to make. And Tellarico would. I think Allred might have. You know, eventually there will be problems for Republicans in Texas because people are fleeing blue states and moving to Texas. And what they tend to do is they vote blue once they've ruined their old place, and then they come to the new place. And so you have to keep convincing people that you're the party that will keep Texas. Texas. And Crockett is going to be. I don't know. Crockett's just going to be saying America and Texas is trash anyway.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know that that flies even I think the people who, like even the blue people who move to these red states are more conservative than the places they left behind.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

A lot of them are still tied to the Democratic Party, and that's terrible. I'd say that, you know, Florida was kind of an outlier in this because the state got way redder as they got this influx of people, including me. So.

[A]

And that's because. That's partly because DeSantis, with his policies and good governance, is in the business of convincing people that the party in charge is doing what it's supposed to be doing. But I think this will cause some heartburn for Democrats who wished to give this a go. Can I tell you about another far lefty woman who is ascendant right now? Have you seen Jennifer Welch, who is a former Bravo celebrity who has.

[B]

Oh, I didn't realize she was a former Bravo celebrity.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What's that story?

[A]

She had a two season interior design show about she herself and her now podcast partner doing interior design in Oklahoma City.

[B]

Okay, maybe that's me and what me and you do after this.

[A]

Hey, let's give it a try. But I just want to. This is the person who's like popped up as their. I don't, you know, they're looking for their Joe Rogan. Right. So Hasan Piker and this woman are the two. Right. She is of course, very pro Palestinian and thinks Bibi Netanyahu is a war criminal. So there's that.

[B]

That's all it takes. Right now on the left, she has.

[A]

That in favor with Hasan Piker. She's a very rich lady. She does design for very rich people. She opens her podcast with Patriots, gaytriots, they Trio, Black Triots and Brown Trio. Yikes. The name of the show is I've had it. She has a mostly silent co host who just sits there and smiles at her, which is interesting. In fact, that's in the profile by the New York Times. Just to give you an indication of where Jennifer Welch is on the ideological spectrum, let's, let's have her signature intro to her podcast. Here it is.

[B]

Ready? One, two, three.

[A]

Patriots Gay trots, Tha Triots, Black Triots.

[B]

Brown triots and all of Maga can.

[A]

Do wet pumps off.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

Now, the New York Times is of course, fawningly profiling this person. And I just, I'm not sure that this is the path that they want to go down electorally.

[B]

Yeah. Is it? Again, the, the new Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan is a Democrat. I know.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Just.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Just keep your Original Joe Rogan. Like what? Why do you need a new one?

[A]

I like this part. She, the writer, talks about her meeting her. When I met Ms. Welch at her apartment one November morning, she opened the door to reveal a four foot tall pop art painting of the former Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She offered me a rose colored glass of water, which I sat down atop a coaster of Barack Obama's face. We sat on her blush Velvet couch, which Ms. Welsh had reupholstered from its original gray. Okay, every woman, Every woman is what I'm hearing. And then this is again, this is the Tim Walsh problem. Libs see a football coach from Minnesota and they go, that's what.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Normal people like, yeah, this woman's from Oklahoma. She grew up in Oklahoma and Texas. She has a Southern accent. So they're like, that's what the normies like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so. But that's not it. It's just like she's playing the part. She's actually signaling very rich, liberal ladies. That's with an accent.

[B]

You're right. Look, I mean, Republicans, conservatives are not immune from this. I think some of the time they, you know, I, I'm not mentioning any crazy podcasters by name, but I think some of it is like, oh, we have somebody black who's saying, you know, conservative things like, let's elevate this person without much, you know, background checking or really looking into her. So I think a lot of it is, it happens on both sides. But the libs going through this right now, like, just, you know, it's really sweet to watch.

[A]

And she's, she does, I will, I will say I think she is preparing Democrats, unlike Kamala Harris, was prepared to actually be able to sit down and take some hits. Like she does, ask harder questions than CBS does. Now, do I think, do I agree with the premises of those questions? No, but people kind of have to go to her show now and they're doing it, so that's interesting. I want to end with one last, like, perfectly lib anecdote about this woman. Affluent Library. This fall, Ms. Welch and her spouse, Josh helped their youngest son move into a dorm at the University of Southern California. She knows many women who have felt directionless when their children left home. Instead, she moved out, too. She told Josh she wanted to experience a midlife gap year in the city with her dogs, where she would be well positioned to build her empires of liberal podcasting and interior design. She moved to Manhattan, and soon she was outside Mr. Mamdani's victory party on election night getting mobbed for selfies. Are they still Heartland's afraid there.

[B]

That marriage is in trouble, I'll tell you that. Yeah, the tell is that they don't want to be together.

[A]

It's a little clue. Midlife gap year.

[B]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that many women or men actually either, who take midlife gap years without getting actually divorced. So good luck to them. Every woman who lives in Manhattan and goes to Madani's victory parties. Sure, why not?

[A]

With her Barack Obama coasters. That's right.

[B]

Well, thanks for joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcast. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com and send us your questions for our year end Ask Us Anything episodes. We're going to be doing those towards the end of December. Thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

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