Podcast Summary: "Normally" — Immigration Wars, Free Speech Fights & 2028 Chess Moves

Date: December 9, 2025
Guests/Hosts: Mary Katharine Ham, Carol Markowicz
Podcast: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show (iHeartPodcasts)

Overview

In this episode of "Normally", Mary Katharine Ham and Carol Markowicz offer their signature "normalish takes" on three intertwined themes shaping American discourse: the status of U.S. immigration policy and its political ramifications, the challenges to free speech in Europe, and the evolving strategies and personalities poised to influence the 2028 U.S. elections. Through sharp commentary, personal anecdotes, and lively banter, they unpack media narratives, dissect party strategies, and poke fun at shifting trends—always with an eye on what’s motivating politicians, press, and voters alike.

Episode Breakdown & Key Discussion Points

1. Cold Open: Weekend Catch-Up & International Drama

Time: 02:14–04:59

• Personal Updates: The hosts start with football talk, Mary Katharine celebrating the Georgia Bulldogs’ win and the perpetual struggle of balancing sports and motherhood.
• Europeans Annoyed at Americans: Carol brings up a viral moment where Europeans criticize Americans after the White House's new National Security Strategy, signaling the U.S. is stepping back from the “world's policeman” role.
  • Key exchange:
    • Mary Katharine: “They talk junk about us all the time.” (04:59)
    • Carol: “Is this a one-way street? You must be super respectful of us.” (05:02)

2. U.S. National Security Strategy and Europe's Reaction

Time: 05:00–10:30

• Strategy Document: The new U.S. policy stresses sovereignty, self-reliance, and reduced intervention abroad.
  • Europe bristles at the tone and the shift, particularly on migration and culture—interpreted as a blunt push for Europe to defend its own interests and toughen immigration.
• Free Speech Differences: U.S. critiques European free speech limits, which have direct effects on American companies and citizens abroad.
  • Memorable Moment: Discussion of British comedian Graham Linehan’s arrest and growing American apprehension about voicing opinions in Europe.
  • Carol: “If I’m tweeting something, if I’m on vacation in Europe and I’m tweeting something, can I be arrested for it?” (05:54)
• NATO & “Tough Love”:
  • Mary Katharine observes that “tough love” from Trump led to stronger NATO independence, though she admits Trump’s methods are brusque.
  • Mary Katharine: “The NATO ability to stand up for itself has increased [due to] the tough love from Trump, who is the only person who would ever deliver it.” (06:40)
• Cultural Anxiety: The hosts lament the European debate climate, where discussing migration is taboo, likening it to stifled American discourse from a few years back.
  • Carol: “If you can’t talk about the problems, you can’t fix the problems.” (08:18)

3. Europe’s “Decline” and American Warnings

Time: 08:24–10:30

• Cultural & Social Stagnation: The discussion continues on Europe’s perceived inability to defend its values or boundaries, leading to both cultural and material loss.
• Push to the Right: Warning that suppressing discussion on migration and identity only fuels a backlash and empowers right-wing populism.
  • Carol reminisces: “I knew Brexit was going to happen when... someone posted, ‘There’s nothing special about Britain.’ Nobody is like, ‘hey, my country is nothing special.’” (09:32)

[Ad Break]

4. Media Reckonings: New York Times on Immigration

Time: 13:47–21:53

• NYT “Now It Can Be Told” Moment: The hosts mock the New York Times’ belated acknowledgment that Biden’s immigration policies have eroded public trust.

  • Carol: “The New York Times… let their readers be several years behind the curve, if ever.” (14:34)
  • Mary Katharine: “If you had paid attention to all of the media sources… you’d have all this information.” (14:22)

• Behind Closed Doors: The NYT reveals White House staffers foresaw border magnet effects and crisis, internally using terms like “open border” and “chaos”—terms the press avoided publicly.

  • Mary Katharine: “They all got together and decided not to call it an open border and not call it the very thing they called it in this meeting, which was chaos and a crisis.” (15:29)
  • Carol: “Anytime you can come and stay in a country, that country’s borders are open.” (16:37)

• Political Repercussions: Biden’s early policy moves (pause deportations, end “Remain in Mexico”, cut wall funding) were reactionary to Trump, not strategically planned.

  • Mary Katharine, citing Cecilia Munoz (Obama admin): “Everybody was reacting to the excesses of the Trump admin… That’s not a good enough way to make decisions.” (17:36)
  • Carol: “Just because Trump likes it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t.” (18:36)

• Media Misrepresentations: They critique the infamous “border agents whipping migrants” photo, which was, as they argue, a media lie never properly retracted.

  • Carol: “The lie was that the agents were whipping the illegals with the reins. It was a complete and total lie.” (19:12)

5. 2028 Electoral Chess: Immigration’s Lingering Bite

Time: 21:01–25:34

• Democratic Dilemmas: How will Democrats square their base’s pro-immigration stance with voter uneasiness and Biden’s record? Are they, as the NYT hints, getting a warning shot?
  • Mary Katharine: “If you do not believe the values and the borders of your country are worth defending, then why would you want any other system than this?” (22:38)
• Class Divide & Hypocrisy: Sarcastic speculation on whether left-leaning professionals would still support open borders if it were their white-collar jobs threatened.
  • Mary Katharine: “If all the immigrants who were coming in were taking white collar work from home jobs… would the overeducated… lefty graduate students be in favor of that?” (24:34)
  • Carol: “They sure wouldn’t.” (24:42)
• Republican Advantage: The GOP, though not perfect, is positioned to claim they defend borders, order, and “legal” immigration—a simple, clear appeal. After five years of unmanaged illegal entry, even legal immigration feels suspect to some Americans.
  • Carol: “Americans have soured on immigration in general because of the illegal immigration problem. And that’s a real problem.” (24:48)

[Ad Break]

6. 2028 Senate Races & Progressive Personalities

Time: 29:12–38:05

• Texas Senate Race: Jasmine Crockett weighs entering the Democratic primary, with discussion of her left-wing, audacious style.
  • Mary Katharine: “She’s going to have excitement, she’s going to have media coverage, she’s going to have a lot of money... by being a reality show Instagram legislator.” (30:39)
  • Republicans face a fractious primary; Democrats are tempted to swing left. The hosts caution this may win primaries but not general elections.
• Profiles in Liberal Podcasting: Introduction to Jennifer Welch, dubbed the left’s new potential “Joe Rogan.” Welch is a wealthy, Southern-accented former Bravo star turned podcast hostess, beloved by the New York Times.
  • Mary Katharine, riffing on Welch’s introduction: “She opens her podcast with ‘Patriots, gaytriots, theytriot, black triots and brown triots…’ Yikes.” (34:38)
  • The NYT's infatuation is critiqued as tone-deaf and performative, mimicking liberal fixations on personality over policy.
• Demographic Changes & Party Shifts: A brief on blue-state migration changing the Texas electorate—possibly coloring Texas purple, but slowly.
  • Mary Katharine: “Once they’ve ruined their old place, then they come to the new place… You have to keep convincing people that you’re the party that will keep Texas, Texas.” (32:16)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Europe’s Outrage:
  • Carol: “If you can’t talk about the problems, you can’t fix the problems.” (08:18)
• On Media & Immigration:
  • Carol: “When I referred to the border as open, which it was... I was told that was super unfair by pretty prominent liberal voices. And I maintained the whole time that liberals were trying to have it both ways.” (16:37)
  • Mary Katharine: “They all got together and decided not to call it an open border and not call it the very thing they called it in this meeting, which was chaos and a crisis.” (15:29)
• On Class & Immigration:
  • Mary Katharine: “If all of the immigrants coming in were taking white-collar work-from-home jobs, would… lefty grad students be in favor of that?” (24:34)
• On Texas Politics:
  • Mary Katharine: “She’s going to have excitement… by being a reality show Instagram legislator. Like. That’s the name of the game.” (30:39)
• On Podcasting as Electoral Outreach:
  • Mary Katharine, on Jennifer Welch: “She’s actually signaling very rich, liberal ladies. That’s with an accent.” (35:59)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------|-----------------| | Catch-up & Europe News | 02:14–04:59 | | U.S. National Security Shift | 05:00–10:30 | | Media, Immigration & NYT | 13:47–21:53 | | 2028 Elections & Border Debate | 21:01–25:34 | | Texas Senate Primary & Podcasting | 29:12–38:05 |

Tone and Context

The episode maintains a witty, conversational tone blending skepticism, sarcasm, and exasperation at both elite media and political missteps from across the spectrum. Both hosts rely on a blend of personal anecdotes, historical reminders, and cultural commentary, using humor (“midlife gap year,” “reality show Instagram legislator”) to drive home how ideological echo chambers can cloud both parties’ ability to connect with regular voters.

Closing Thoughts

This episode explores the cyclical nature of political denial, media “revelations,” and the class dynamics behind today’s party strategies. The hosts highlight the domestic and international consequences of narrative management—especially on immigration—and cast a critical eye toward 2028’s rising personalities. Their message is: if you want to win hearts and minds, start by acting (and thinking) “normally”—and with intellectual honesty.