← The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Normally Podcast: Iran Ceasefire Collapse, Strait of Hormuz Showdown & Swalwell Scandal Fallout
00:32:17
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- [00:00]
Mary Katharine Ham
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
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- [01:36]
Jana Kramer
Wind down with Jana Kramer. Instead of giving your mom something that fades, give her something that becomes part of her home this Mother's Day. The Lenox Spice Village is a set of 24 hand painted little houses that are actually spice jars. Perfect for anyone who loves to cook, entertain or enjoy the little details that make everyday As a mom, I love gifts that help turn ordinary moments into memories. Charming, timeless and meant to be used, this is one of those pieces she'll treasure. And once you see it, you'll want it for your own home too. Find the full collection@lenox.com SpiceVillage what happens
- [02:15]
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- [03:52]
Mary Katharine Ham
Hey guys, we are back on normal as the show is normal it takes for when the news gets weird and it won't stop being weird. I am Mary Kathryn Ham.
- [03:59]
Carol Markowitz
I am Carol Markowitz. How was your weekend? Mary Kathryn, I know you're trying to stay offline and your haters do not like that. They don't appreciate you taking breaks.
- [04:09]
Mary Katharine Ham
They don't. They're like you. All these people come out of the woodwork when you step away from X. Like you haven't commented on this. And I was like, yeah, I told you I was not gonna be doing that. That's, that's what I said. I'm gonna watch the Masters, so deal with it.
- [04:23]
Carol Markowitz
Yep, yep. I watched the Masters against my will because my husband turned on the TV and I don't know how to turn it off. So and then he like left I and I was just on in my living room. It was good though. I I, I like that Ro he's got some charm personality.
- [04:39]
Mary Katharine Ham
Amazing. Is it amazing?
- [04:41]
Carol Markowitz
I can't follow the ball. I don't know. Where does that ball go?
- [04:47]
Mary Katharine Ham
It's very small. They have. They have graphics now that help you understand that.
- [04:54]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, yeah.
- [04:55]
Mary Katharine Ham
I have never been a golfer, which is silly. I should learn. But I do like watching golf, which I think is the opposite of most people. They enjoy playing, but maybe not watching, but I find it very soothing. A Sunday nap on the last day of the Masters. Like how you can't do better than that with a pimento cheese sandwich.
- [05:12]
Carol Markowitz
Come down to Florida and let's learn how to play golf together.
- [05:15]
Mary Katharine Ham
Okay.
- [05:17]
Carol Markowitz
I've been one time, and it happened to be a very cold day in Florida, and I almost froze to death on that golf course.
- [05:23]
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Yes.
- [05:23]
Mary Katharine Ham
It was very. It was very tragic. I can imagine that the 72 degrees was rough on you.
- [05:31]
Carol Markowitz
It really was.
- [05:32]
Mary Katharine Ham
There was a slight breeze that day.
- [05:35]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [05:36]
Mary Katharine Ham
You know, skills acquisition is very easy in your 40s, so I think we'll be great.
- [05:41]
Carol Markowitz
I believe in us, actually. Who doesn't want. And come on, wouldn't you want some, like, normally golf gear? Because my problem with golf more than anything else is the outfits are very bad for women. Very bad.
- [05:52]
Mary Katharine Ham
I think they're improving. Isn't it a bit of a tennis situation?
- [05:56]
Carol Markowitz
Like, again, on a cold day? And I know you don't believe that we have those. I was dying. All right, you know what? You could laugh at me. That's okay.
- [06:07]
Mary Katharine Ham
Get you some fleece lined golf wear.
- [06:12]
Carol Markowitz
All right. I think we're just, you know, like our haters say, we just don't want to get to talking about the real topics.
- [06:17]
Mary Katharine Ham
That's what it is. Stick to the news. Alrighty. There is news, though.
- [06:22]
Carol Markowitz
There is news. The Iran ceasefire is off. I think a week ago today, we recorded a podcast where I said I didn't think we was going to hold. You said the same. We just both didn't have a lot of optimism that Iran was willing to make peace. And J.D. vance, which, by the way, we never really talked about, why was it J.D. vance going to Pakistan to talk to the Iranians? What do we think about that?
- [06:52]
Mary Katharine Ham
Yeah. So it is different from the crew that usually goes. And it's a very. Presumably a very high stakes. It really is.
- [07:00]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [07:01]
Mary Katharine Ham
Negotiation from the point of view of the White House. And so they send this new guy in. Not to say that he's not a smart guy who knows things, but, like, it's Ben Kushner or Wyckoff on every other thing. And sometimes Rubio in the mix. And then since Vance, and I'm kind of of the mind, particularly after I saw that in an almost literal split screen, Trump was at a UFC fight with Marco Rubio.
- [07:28]
Carol Markowitz
He just wanted to hang out with Marco.
- [07:30]
Mary Katharine Ham
I felt like maybe Vance was sent because Trump was like, hmm, I don't love how this is feeling right now. Why don't you go give it a try, JD because you had some thoughts about how this wasn't gonna work out. You go deal with the Iranians, you tell me what they say about being peaceful and reasonable, and Marco and I are gonna go to the fight.
- [07:51]
Carol Markowitz
Good luck with this.
- [07:52]
Mary Katharine Ham
And then you report back. That's what it feels like to me.
- [07:55]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah. And look, I. You know, I feel like. We'll see about J.D. vance. I'm very on the fence about him. I was a big, big fan in the past. I am kind of mixed, but I do think a lot of unfair things are attached to him. Like, for example, like Joe Kent, who famously stepped down from the counterterrorism position because he didn't support this war. He's sort of attached to J.D. vance, which, I don't know necessarily, that there's evidence that they have a relationship or that they are even on the same side, but they're sort of seen as united on the same side of the. What we would call the people who are on the right but have really turned on Trump. Now, sending Vance might have been kind of a gift to those people, like, hey, look, we're going to send the guy you do trust to try to make peace. You say you don't want war. Here comes JD Vance to figure out if we could really make this ceasefire happen. And, you know, the idea that they fell apart because the Iranians were like, we are not giving up our nuke, nukes. And Joe Kent had told Tucker Carlson that there was a fatwa against developing nuclear weapons in Iran. There's a lot of kind of humor to that because they were so against developing nukes that they won't give up the nukes. After 20 plus hours of negotiations with JD Vance, and they're unwilling to discuss any kind of give part of giving up any part of their nuclear program.
- [09:29]
Mary Katharine Ham
Yeah. So Vance is there for 21 hours in Islamabad, sitting down, face to face, along with Kushner and Witkoff, and he comes out at the end, and this is what he had to say briefly about the progress there.
- [09:40]
Taco Bell Advertisement
We have been at it now for 21 hours, and we've had a number of substantive discussions with The Iranians, that's the good news. The bad news is that we have
- [09:50]
Mary Katharine Ham
not reached an agreement. And I think that's bad news for Iran much more than it's bad news
- [09:54]
Taco Bell Advertisement
for the United States of America. So we go back to the United States having not come to an agreement. We've made very clear what our red lines are, what things we're willing to accommodate.
- [10:04]
Carol Markowitz
So one of the points on the 15 point plan was that the US had presented to Iran. It included assistance to them in advancing and developing a civilian nuclear project. So there's this argument that, no, Iran doesn't want nuclear weapons for war or to attack other countries. They want it for electricity generation, which, you know, is simply untrue because they are unwilling to give up any uranium enrichment, even if we provide them with already enriched fuel.
- [10:35]
Mary Katharine Ham
So also, the idea that they're super interested in providing power to the people of Iran is somewhat undercut by the fact that they cut out the Internet and all sorts of things for the last 40 or 50 days. The new York Times called it a remarkable conclusion to a high stakes diplomatic trip for Mr. Vance. I didn't think it was that remarkable. You're sitting down with Pakistan and Iran, like, Pakistan's like the good cop in the room. We think we're gonna get something good out of this. The thing about Trump is that in the past, yes, something like this would have been extremely orchestrated for any other president. It would have been extremely high stakes. Every single word that came out of every person's mouth would have been a huge deal. And everybody's reading the tea leaves. It simply doesn't work that way with Trump. Trump is like, yeah, give it a try, and if it doesn't work, come back and then we'll do something else. Or at least that's how it feels to me, certainly.
- [11:31]
Carol Markowitz
Right. And you know, Trump, again, in the past, a president going to a UFC fight while this was going on would have been some sort of tell. But here it's like, nah, Trump just likes ufc. It's like he's just interested in that sort of thing. There's a good thread on X by somebody named Miyad Maleki, a senior fellow at fdd. And it's just how the current blockade of the Hormuz Strait by us could easily destroy the Iranian economy completely. They rely on the trade through that strait to such an extent that it can really decimate them. And Trump's hitting them where it hurts. You know, I sent this to you last night. Somebody posted a still from one of my Favorite movies, A Bronx Tale. And it was Chaz Pumentary saying, now you can't leave. And that's what it felt like when, you know, Iran's like, we're going to block the Strait of Hormuz. And Trump's like, no, we're going to block the Strait of Hormuz.
- [12:32]
Mary Katharine Ham
Yeah. I mean, there is a, a part of this where, yes, they can exact pain and it will have knock on effects. Even though we don't get most of our crude oil from that area in Europe, we get it from other places, but it will have effects. But we also have power. We have agency, we have Trump at the head who's not afraid to use American power. So. But this has moved a little bit from a military operation to an economic war, which, by the way, Trump is very comfortable with, despite the fact that, you know, it could have knock on effects and people will feel it here through trade and all sorts of things. He's very happy to dust it up in these areas. And that is what makes it tricky for the Iranian regime because they don't know how long he might stick it out doing this.
- [13:20]
Carol Markowitz
Right. It's like they thought he was in there with them and it turns out they're there with him. So we'll see. Last week, Clay Travis, you know, we're, we're on the Buck Sexton and Clay Travis podcast network. He tweeted, iran doesn't control the Strait of Hormuz, are simply threatening to blow up ships there. Something the US and dozens of other countries could also do. So far, we've allowed Iran's oil to leave the Strait. We could stop that immediately and maybe we should. Now, Trump is a big fan of Clay and Buck, and he has responded to things that, like, their callers have called in and suggested before. So it's actually not even crazy to imagine Trump saw this Clay Travis tweet and was like, yeah, I could do that. Right?
- [14:03]
Mary Katharine Ham
We could do that. By the way, I want to give also a perspective from the New York Times just to an idea of, like, how this is reported on at the end of their piece on JD Vance not getting a deal with the Iranians. They say it turned out after 21 hours on the ground in Islamabad, not much had happened to bring a lasting peace between the United States and Iran. Well, yeah, not much has happened since 1979 to bring a lasting peace between the US and America. It's just what they liked was the detente that was Iran hitting us and our assets with impunity. That's what they like, they don't like this version of where you actually punish bad behavior. And as the FDD expert points out, it might actually move the regime.
- [14:50]
Carol Markowitz
Right. If there's a regime left. We also have just no idea who's in charge there and where that, like, who, what level are these people even at at this point? But this is what also dealing with these kinds of states is like. And Israel has had this experience firsthand, and I think the US Largely hasn't. And so here we are trying to make deals with irrational, stubborn actors who don't have the best interests of their people. So they don't really care if you destroy their country and their economy and kill a bunch of their people. They're just sort of like, that just is how it goes. It's very hard to have sane conversations and to make actual deals with those people. So this is a kind of a gear shift for Trump too. He loves the deal making, but he's also like, I will do what I have to do here.
- [15:40]
Mary Katharine Ham
A thing I appreciate about this in the Vance clip is that Vance, despite being definitely more of a restrainer and someone who probably raised issues with this particular engagement, he comes out not like a Georgetown Foreign Service grad, the opposite. And just says like, they're being intransigent, we're not getting a deal. Instead of, oh, talks are moving along, there's good stuff and we're gonna just like mealy mouth this thing until we collapse on a bunch of stuff. He makes it clear that we're not doing that and I appreciate hearing that from him. Even though he has issues with the engagement to begin with or the kind of engagement sometimes.
- [16:19]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, I feel like it's something we just don't know. Does he have issues with the engagement? We hear it so anonymously sourced second and third hand. I kind of try to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's on Trump's team, but, you know.
- [16:32]
Mary Katharine Ham
Yes, but I think he's hesitantly on Trump's team and I take that from his own words in the Yemen signal chat where everyone was like, we're gonna hit the Houthis. Cuz they keep hitting us like 130 times in a past two years. And he was like, I don't know about that. And is Trump fully briefed on this? That's where, that's where my shift on him happened, where like, oh, he seems quite committed to the idea that we shouldn't be exerting power in these ways.
- [16:59]
Carol Markowitz
What happened to him though? Like, is this an Actual change in JD Vance. Have we seen a real cause he wasn't this guy just a few years ago. So. Well, I think it's difficult to understand here.
- [17:12]
Mary Katharine Ham
This is where I want to be very generous to him, because I think his opposition comes from having served and having known a bunch of people who lost limbs and lives and watched American treasure go overseas and watched Obama and Biden through withdrawal fritter both Afghanistan and Iraq gains away to a great extent. And I understand that point of view. I don't think it's solved by restraint all the time. I don't think that that issue is solved, but I get where it comes from. And I think he wants to be in the corner of which I kind of am most of the time, which is like, I don't want a giant project, but I do want effective strikes and use of American military might. So I think there's a place in there where he's honestly coming to the point of view that's like, hey, the president's in charge. I don't think this is gonna end quickly, so I'm very worried about it.
- [18:10]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, that is. I mean, it's the charitable take, and we'll give it to him.
- [18:14]
Mary Katharine Ham
Well, the thing that also concerns me is that restrainerism that also hangs out with Tucker Carlson.
- [18:22]
Carol Markowitz
That's it inevitably ends up taking a
- [18:24]
Mary Katharine Ham
turn when I don't know where he is on that.
- [18:28]
Carol Markowitz
Right, right. We don't know where he is on that. And he is kidding himself if he thinks he's not going to have to face that at some point, because, again, everybody has this speculation about him and he's not like, no, you guys are all crazy and wrong.
- [18:41]
Mary Katharine Ham
He doesn't do that. And I should note also because Trump very notably turned on the podcast Cruise the other day in a true social where he blasted Trump, Tucker and Megyn Kelly and Candace Owens by name in his signature.
- [18:58]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, and Alex Jones.
- [18:59]
Mary Katharine Ham
Yeah, and Alex Jones.
- [19:00]
Carol Markowitz
And it's so funny that all the, like, B listers of that crew were, like, upset that they weren't mentioned.
- [19:08]
Mary Katharine Ham
Put us in the ranks. Right, right.
- [19:10]
Carol Markowitz
That's all they need. That's all they want. Right. All they're here for is the hits. So Trump really did them a disservice by not throwing them in there.
- [19:18]
Mary Katharine Ham
Well, here we are.
- [19:19]
Carol Markowitz
Here we are. Okay, we're gonna take a short break and be right back with more on normally.
- [19:26]
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- [20:56]
Jana Kramer
Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. Instead of giving your mom something that fades, give her something that becomes part of her home this Mother's Day. The Lennox Spice Village is a set of 24 hand painted little houses that are actually spice jars. Perfect for anyone who loves to cook, entertain or enjoy the little details that make every special. As a mom, I love gifts that help turn ordinary moments into memories. Charming, timeless and meant to be used. This is one of those pieces she'll treasure. And once you see it, you'll want it for your own home too. Find the full collection@lenox.com SpiceVillage hi, I'm
- [21:36]
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- [22:10]
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- [22:42]
Carol Markowitz
We are back on normally where Eric Swalwell, who was running for governor of California, has dropped out of the race facing just a litany of sexual harassment and possible assault allegations. You know what drives me absolutely crazy about this? I mean, among other things that everybody knew it was the same thing with Harvey Weinstein. It was like, oh, yeah, everybody knew. I'm like, I didn't know. If you knew, you should have said something. Because I don't hang out with people I don't know. I did not know, actually. So you should have said something if everybody knew. It's like this way of, like, I'm in the know, but you didn't do anything about it, you absolute coward. So that's where I get really pissed off about stories like this.
- [23:35]
Mary Katharine Ham
Yeah. The San Francisco Chronicle is the first one that ran with us, and we should note that the allegations are pretty serious. This is a woman in the first San Francisco Chronicle story. It was a woman who went. Her name is not on the record, she is anonymous, and she says she was a staffer for him. And he repeatedly sent her nudes. Initiated contact over Snapchat, which is like a little sketchy in and of itself. Solicited nudes from her, tried to kiss her in a car, solicited her for oral sex in a car, all. All things while she was his employee. And then eventually they hung out. She got very drunk. Says she does not remember the encounter, but felt that she had been violated. And this happened a couple times.
- [24:25]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [24:26]
Mary Katharine Ham
So that's what kicked everything off. And then several other women came forward and said, oh, yeah, he was very skeezy with me reaching out. By the way, I believe he was married during all of this.
- [24:34]
Carol Markowitz
Right, right. Yeah. What a guy. The New York Times is saying that New York has opened a criminal investig, I believe, based on that staffer that you mentioned in the San Francisco Chronicle. Multiple women have accused him of misconduct. It's like, really? I mean, it goes from like, just inappropriate chatter to some very serious allegations, like you said. What's really particularly crazy to me is that in 2020, Axios reported that Eric Swalwell had a relationship with a Chinese spy and he's still in our political system. What in the world is going on? Apparently, he had an extended relationship with a Chinese spy who goes by Fang Fang and was, you know, from the Chinese intelligence agency. And again, it was Axios breaking this story. It wasn't like, you know, National Review finding out, which I would believe anyway. But if you want to question whether these stories. Stories are real, these are liberal outlets coming after him. And of course it's like, well, why now? Why, why is this information coming to light now? He's been around for so long. Again, this story is from 2020. You know, what does that mean? Does it mean that they actually want Katie Porter to win or, you know, the.
- [26:00]
Mary Katharine Ham
Yeah, that is important as, as our podcast Tom Steyer.
- [26:04]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [26:04]
Mary Katharine Ham
As our podcasting friend John Ashbrook says on Ruthless, no story like this comes out and certainly doesn't become banner headline news unless it is beneficial to another Democrat. So what is happening. What is happening right now is that in the gubernatorial race in California, which you would imagine should be won hands down by a Democrat, they got a little problem because they have a jungle primary, which means that whoever are the top two finishers advanced to a runoff. Those two could be two Democrats, which is what usually happens, usually.
- [26:37]
Carol Markowitz
Right.
- [26:38]
Mary Katharine Ham
So that they're guaranteed a win. But what's happening right now is that the people in California have become a little ticked off at the Democrats. And there are two Republicans running at the top of this field. Those are Steve Hilton, former Fox host, great guy. And Chad Bianco, sheriff in California. Now, Trump has endorsed Hilton, which I don't think was a great strategic move because I would like both of those guys to move on. But in the meantime, meantime, Democrats have Swalwell as their leader at this point, but it's a paltry like 12% or something. And then they have Katie Porter, who has all sorts of abuse issues, also
- [27:15]
Carol Markowitz
a lot of abuse baggage, something involving mashed potatoes on her ex husband's ex
- [27:20]
Mary Katharine Ham
had much of it on video. And then who's the third? Oh, Tom Steyer, who just spends a bunch of money and never wins.
- [27:27]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [27:27]
Mary Katharine Ham
So that's their situation. So they realize if we don't winnow this field, we're gonna split too much and the two Republicans will move on. So that is why everything is Coming out now.
- [27:40]
Carol Markowitz
Right. Well, Tom Steyer, according to Polymarket, has spiked into a 53% chance to win that thing. I have heard Tom Steyer speak. He has zero personality and no charm at all. But again, if Katie Porter's the other Democrat in the race, he might run away with that. You know, for. For the Democrats, like you said, it doesn't mean he's gonna be in the top two, but we'll. We'll see what happens. Swalwell was in pole position to win that election. Even though Republicans were in the lead. It just. There were a lot of people in the race, and. And he was sort of considered the guy that was going to take it. Our friend Lisa, by the way.
- [28:20]
Mary Katharine Ham
Embarrassing, right? The entire state, hugely populous, which, with a giant economy, and the three people y' all are pulling are Steyer, Katie Porter, and Eric Swalwell. Come on, politics.
- [28:35]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah. As our friend Lisa Booth points out about billionaire Tom Steyer, who's really just trying to buy this thing. I thought billionaires were bad. And of course, only Republican billionaires are bad.
- [28:46]
Mary Katharine Ham
Just like only credible allegations or even incredible ones. The credible allegations only count when you're, like, in danger of endangering other Democrats. That's when they count. I do have a running list of men who were on CNN twice as much as I was when I worked there who ended up becoming hugely flame out, disgusting. Pos. So he's one. We had Michael Avenatti, who ended up in jail.
- [29:14]
Carol Markowitz
Yep. Yeah. He was going to be president. Mary Katherine.
- [29:18]
Mary Katharine Ham
And the thing is that each one of these people, our friends on the left and most of the media, I repeat myself, are perfectly willing to believe anything out of their mouths and hold them up as beacons of trust.
- [29:31]
Carol Markowitz
Yep.
- [29:31]
Mary Katharine Ham
As long as they hate Trump enough.
- [29:34]
Carol Markowitz
Exactly.
- [29:34]
Mary Katharine Ham
It's a bad standard, right?
- [29:36]
Carol Markowitz
And the way that these people say that they want democracy, but when the billionaires, their billionaires try to buy that democracy, that's okay. So switching gears to Hungary, we have last night, there was an election in Hungary, and Orban, who had been the leader of Hungary for the last 16 years, was defeated. He was frequently referred to as a dictator or an autocrat, and sometimes a fascist. But he lost the election. He conceded. He stepped down, and he did the same when he lost in 2002. Meanwhile, the billionaires on the left, the Alex Soros, for example, is like the people of Hungary have taken back their country. A resounding reject, rejection of entrenched corruption and foreign interference. Meanwhile, Soros has given, like, close to $100 million to various groups in Hungary to cause this result that is now, you know, democracy in action.
- [30:33]
Mary Katharine Ham
Well, and by the way, the uprising is not led by a lib. I mean, he's not liberal. He's conservative in many of his views. Also, I just like many of the people who claim that Orban and Trump are the same and that these are existential crises in both countries, they just seem to blip right by the fact that, like, okay, well, the guy just lost and then left.
- [30:57]
Carol Markowitz
Right.
- [30:57]
Mary Katharine Ham
And so. So you're telling me that a country elected some guy that you didn't like for a while and then they elected a different guy that you like slightly better.
- [31:06]
Carol Markowitz
Right, Exactly.
- [31:08]
Mary Katharine Ham
That sounds okay to me.
- [31:09]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [31:10]
Mary Katharine Ham
I will never forget, by the way, all of them telling me that Maloney was a fascist. Like, I'm done with that.
- [31:15]
Carol Markowitz
That's up there for sure. Yeah. So the new guy is named Peter Magar. He is socially conservative. He's really a big immigration restrictionist. He wants to, according to Jason Kenney on X, he wants to cut taxes and double the defense budget. He criticized Orban for admitting too many guest workers, wants to increase Hungary's already generous pronatal incentives. I mean, I watched a video of him today and I think the most liberal thing about him is he wants to rejoin the International Criminal Court, which is really too bad. I don't think the ICC should have any kind of power or any of that. But other than that, I kind of see him as just as conservative as Orban. So I'm not sure what the Democrats or liberals think they won here. What remains to be seen. But Hungary has been in pretty good shape and I hope that it stays that way.
- [32:07]
Mary Katharine Ham
Well, certainly it doesn't seem, at least on the immigration front, that that populist strain will be losing anytime soon in most of Europe. I mean, it does seem like something that is whether whether the it's the opposition or the party in power. Now, that's a line of, a line of attack that is salient to most, many, many, many European voters.
- [32:29]
Carol Markowitz
Right. Well, again, what remains to be seen, what happens there. And maybe Magar is this great liberal hope, but so far it doesn't seem that way and we'll have to keep an eye on that. We're going to take a short break and be right back with more on normally.
- [32:44]
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- [36:01]
Mary Katharine Ham
All right, we are back on normally with a little bit of a story about marriage. We like to talk about marriage here.
- [36:07]
Carol Markowitz
We do. Yeah. We're really big fans of marriage.
- [36:10]
Mary Katharine Ham
In this case, Alex Clark, who is a Turning Point USA personality, deals with, like, health and wellness in the Maha universe.
- [36:20]
Carol Markowitz
Yep.
- [36:21]
Mary Katharine Ham
And someone tweeted the other day, alex Clark has some good ideas, and I've enjoyed listening to her podcast in the past, but I don't think it's wise for her to have a prominent role at TPUSA's Women's Leadership Conference considering that she's still unmarried at age 33.
- [36:35]
Carol Markowitz
Mm.
- [36:36]
Mary Katharine Ham
And then there was a response to that. I think you have that.
- [36:39]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah. So it's interesting because Alex Clark is quite good. She is. She's young, she's smart, she makes some good points. The idea that she shouldn't have a prominent role at TP's USA Women's Leadership Conference because she's still unmarried in her early 30s is obviously absurd. And let me just tell the women that are listening to this don't think that married women in their 30s don't get the same kind of crap we do. We get the like, why are you here not at home with your children? So Haley Caronia, she responded to this. She's got a podcast called Scrolling with Haley. She's also a very interesting person. She writes, I'm a Christian unmarried woman in her 30s. I'd love to get married and have children. Just because I haven't experienced these things yet doesn't mean I don't know that they are good or women should strive for. I do want to ask, though, what should unmarried Christian women do in their waiting season? Settle, shut up, Be utterly boring and unsuccessful? Live at home off our parents, though we meet someone to take care of us, work less hard so that men will be more active, apt to pick us up. What does that say about what men want? Why would a masculine man be threatened by a woman who is passionate about her career and hobbies and why is it that the assumption that a woman's passion and skills aren't transferable to motherhood. Most working women I know are feminine and would love to be traditional stay at home moms. It's a real tough question of, you know, what should women who want to be married be doing? But that's not what these people are saying. They're saying that you shouldn't even listen to women unless they are married. And again, as. And I know we get the opposite
- [38:16]
Mary Katharine Ham
kind of hate, if you're Erica Kirk and you are married with children and then you become tragically not married and still have children, they will go after you for that as well.
- [38:26]
Carol Markowitz
That's right.
- [38:27]
Mary Katharine Ham
This is a situation where some of them just simply don't think it is the place of women to speak up. And you and I came up in a conservative movement that didn't have those takes.
- [38:39]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, yeah.
- [38:41]
Mary Katharine Ham
And I think, look, a lot of this is a pendulum swing culturally because the left asserted that marriage and normal families were bad and that you'd be ruining your life by engaging in it. So you swing back to like, let's do it the more traditional way. But Alex Clark has plenty to offer. Women have plenty to offer. And by the way, they should be engaged in politics because if you don't have them there, you're going to lose.
- [39:08]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [39:08]
Mary Katharine Ham
Because they have to be like voting end things.
- [39:11]
Carol Markowitz
That's right. Yep. Yep. And you know, Republicans do a problem with women and the problem is this kind of thing. I will say that the account that commented on Alex Clark, you know, maybe she shouldn't be in a TP USA leadership role is called White Baby Factory. So like, you know, take it with
- [39:28]
Mary Katharine Ham
the origin of the country on that.
- [39:30]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah. Take it with a giant humongous grain of salt that this person even has, you know, the best, the best hope online. I just checked the country. It's Canada, you Canadians.
- [39:40]
Mary Katharine Ham
But here's. You're supposed to be polite. But here's the thing is, I think that on the Internet it so often gets polarized into this ridiculous excuse. The Obama phrase false choice between hardcore boss babe with zero children and never interested in getting married and the opposite. And like the beauty of modern life, actually. And of course it comes with downsides and we make exchanges and trade offs because that's what life is. But there are so many more options available to us as working moms of putting everything together than there were when my mom was raising me.
- [40:20]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, yeah. And I think there's also, you know, the, the thing that just because what you're doing now, whether that's staying at home with your kids or not married or whatever, is what you're always going to be doing is insane. I mean, you could, you could be a stay, stay at home mom for a few years and then go back to being a full time working mom or you could work part time or, you know, and I, I always hated this idea like, oh, the single women, like that's a temporary state. And you know, I just said about Erica Kirk, marriage could be a temporary state. It's all in flux and you're doing your best and, and women should not have to be at each other's throats or being told that they shouldn't be, they should be left out of the conversation whether they're married or single or whatever.
- [41:00]
Mary Katharine Ham
By the way, women who do want to get married and have kids, they should have people to listen to who are both married and unmarried, people who are going through that season and people who are not. And I also just want to shout out Alex Clark for having been very courageous very early in calling out Candace Owens and very unabashed about it when she had stuff to lose, just as others did when it comes to like that person, audience or clout or what have you. And she was like, no, no, this is bad. And she was very clear about it.
- [41:28]
Carol Markowitz
Yep, yep. And I think that's when I started following her and like I said, I, I've enjoyed following her and I think that she's smart and has a lot to say. The idea to dismiss her because she's not married and you know, I just celebrated my 17 year anniversary and I post every year on my anniversary that I at age 30 was a disaster. I mean I, I was nowhere near, you know, these girls are all doing a lot better than I was. I was really in a bad place and by 31, married and at the start of the best decade of my life, it's just things can change very quickly. Again, don't see these as permanent states. And you know, I thought I was never getting married for sure. So, you know, things could really change.
- [42:11]
Mary Katharine Ham
Yep, life changes all the time. That's the only thing that is constant.
- [42:15]
Carol Markowitz
That's right. Well, thanks for joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcast. Get in touch with with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.
- [42:32]
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Mary Katharine Ham
schedule sounds like this.
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Carol Markowitz
Are you kidding me?
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Mary Katharine Ham
An oil change is the last thing
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Carol Markowitz
No upsells, no problem.
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