Normally Podcast: Iran Escalation, Cuba’s Socialist Illusions & The Collapse of Polyamory Culture

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: "Normally Podcast: Iran Escalation, Cuba’s Socialist Illusions & The Collapse of Polyamory Culture"
Date: March 24, 2026
Hosts: Mary Kathryn Hamm & Carol Markowitz
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

In this episode of "The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show," hosts Mary Kathryn Hamm and Carol Markowitz unpack three of the week's most compelling stories: escalating tensions between the US and Iran, the Western left’s ongoing fascination with Cuban socialism, and the unraveling of polyamory culture in the mainstream. The hosts bring their characteristic blend of humor, skepticism, and cultural commentary as they dissect political narratives, media hypocrisy, and cultural trends.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Iran Escalation: Misinformation, Missile Strikes & Political Posturing

Timestamps: 04:25 – 12:08

• Recent Developments:

  • President Trump has postponed strikes on Iran's energy facilities for five days.
  • Contradictory claims: US officials assert there are ongoing talks with Iran—but Iranian officials deny it.
  • Over the weekend, Iran fired ballistic missiles at Diego Garcia, a US/UK military base in the Indian Ocean.
  • Widespread surprise at Iran’s actual missile capabilities; public figures like Piers Morgan react with alarm on social media.

• Discussion Highlights:

  • The hosts poke fun at those shocked by Iran's deception.
    • "It turns out Iran is not telling the truth. And this was a shock to some people." — Mary Kathryn Hamm (05:31)
  • Revisiting the JCPOA deal and its critics:
    • Host skepticism about ever trusting authoritarian regimes to self-report on weaponry.
    • Reference to Marco Rubio’s early warnings (2015) about underestimating Iran.
    • Host critique of Obama's Iran policy, suggesting it propped up the regime instead of aiding dissidents.
    • "You cannot gentle parent the Middle East. And doing it with the moles is a bad idea." — Carol Markowitz (08:45)
  • Politicians and media figures (Donald Trump, Tucker Carlson) invoke 'America First,' but the meaning seems twisted.
    • "America first now means, you know, being on equal footing with China, apparently." — Mary Kathryn Hamm (10:47)
  • Hosts note both US political parties are framing the situation for their own ends, and “progressives” believe Iranian talking points too readily.

• Memorable Quotes:

  • "Maybe it's the Russian in me, I just assume all of these regimes are lying. Why would you not?" — Mary Kathryn Hamm (06:42)
  • "At some point, we're going to have to see the Iranian people rise up and take over here because there is only so much we could do from the air. I don't want boots on the ground." — Mary Kathryn Hamm (09:49)

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2. Cuba: Socialist Illusions, Western Apologists & Poverty Tourism

Timestamps: 16:34 – 22:53

• Western Activist Tourism:

  • American activists/influencers visit Cuba, purportedly in solidarity, but only with regime approval and as guests in luxury accommodations.
  • "They are staying in nice hotels... just like most socialists of note, she ends up getting the good stuff while everybody else gets stuck in the back." — Carol Markowitz (16:34)
  • Code Pink’s Medea Benjamin is mocked for first-class travel to ‘help’ Cuba, and ‘poverty tourism’ is derided.

• Actions vs. Reality:

  • Anecdote: Code Pink paints murals in Havana, which the hosts sarcastically suggest will solve Cuba’s deep structural problems.
    • “Was there a mural involved?” — Mary Kathryn Hamm (17:33)
  • Highlighting Cuban repression: Artists deemed sympathetic by Westerners ignore imprisoned Cuban musicians like Maykel Osorbo, jailed for his protest anthem.
    • "These are all, like, you know, free speech beneficiaries...who travel down there to visit a regime... imprisoning for nine years a reggaeton artist who had the crime of recording an uprising anthem..." — Carol Markowitz (19:14)
  • Hosts reflect on the absurdity of idolizing Cuban ‘literacy rates’ and classic cars, which are symbols of stagnation, not progress.
    • "Not to be cool. It’s because that’s all they have." — Mary Kathryn Hamm (20:56)

• Debating Socialism’s Merits:

  • Discussion about the Berlin Wall and historical defections only going one way.
    • "All the defections were only going in one direction. There were no defections going the opposite way." — Mary Kathryn Hamm (21:09)
  • The hosts emphasize that the free world already “won” the debate with communism, but warn younger generations are still susceptible to its promises.
    • “Free stuff is not ever actually free.” — Mary Kathryn Hamm (22:41)

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3. The Collapse of Polyamory Culture: Memoir Discourse & Media Narratives

Timestamps: 27:02 – 35:15

• Main Subject:

  • Lindy West’s new memoir, Adult Braces, details her foray into polyamory at her husband’s urging.
  • The hosts note that, despite affirmative messaging, the story comes off as emotionally harrowing to most readers.

• Memoir Critique:

  • "This is a book about how happy she is to be in a polyamorous relationship...everybody who reads this book...just does not believe her. And that’s a real problem for a memoir." — Mary Kathryn Hamm (28:08)
  • Recap of viral excerpts:
    • The book depicts a fraught routine (“dawn ritual”), which is revealed to be more about anxiety spirals than connection.
      • "That is very, very different than the dawn ritual of laying in bed talking for hours. Like one is just clearly a lie." — Mary Kathryn Hamm (30:03)
  • Comparison made to the recent memoir More by Molly Roden Winter: recurring pattern of one person reluctantly acquiescing to polyamory at the other’s insistence.

• The Political Dimension:

  • Polyamory (and its elite media coverage) likened to “tradwife” culture on the far right: both are seen as reactionary lifestyle experiments performed for political or social cachet.
    • "West’s performatively anti white, unpatriotic and cosmopolitan version of polyamory is the blue state mirror image of Tradwifery." — Carol Markowitz (quoting Tyler Harper Austin, 32:14)

• Cultural Consequences:

  • The hosts suggest that public disbelief in polyamory (and even in marriage as presented by memoirists) spreads cultural cynicism about relationships in general.
    • "When a lot of things are a lie, people stop believing everything." — Mary Kathryn Hamm (33:26)
  • They poke fun at the idea that open marriages are liberating, referencing a Cut article in which the reality is anything but lightening the “mental load.”
    • "Could opening your marriage lighten your mental load? Answer, no, no, it will not." — Carol Markowitz (33:50)
  • "There’s like a lot of evidence throughout history that [marriage and raising kids] does make you happy. This new thing, though, there’s no evidence yet that it makes anybody happy." — Mary Kathryn Hamm (34:49)
  • Hosts end by referencing Arrested Development: “Does it work for them?” “No, but we could be the first.” (35:15)

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Memorable Quotes (By Timestamp & Speaker)

• On Iran:

  • "It turns out Iran is not telling the truth. And this was a shock to some people."
    — Mary Kathryn Hamm (05:31)
  • "You cannot gentle parent the Middle East. And doing it with the moles is a bad idea."
    — Carol Markowitz (08:45)
  • "Maybe it's the Russian in me, I just assume all of these regimes are lying. Why would you not?"
    — Mary Kathryn Hamm (06:42)

• On Cuba:

  • "They are staying in nice hotels... just like most socialists of note, she ends up getting the good stuff while everybody else gets stuck in the back."
    — Carol Markowitz (16:34)
  • "Not to be cool. It’s because that’s all they have."
    — Mary Kathryn Hamm (20:56)
  • "All the defections were only going in one direction. There were no defections going the opposite way."
    — Mary Kathryn Hamm (21:09)

• On Polyamory:

  • "This is a book about how happy she is to be in a polyamorous relationship...everybody who reads this book...just does not believe her."
    — Mary Kathryn Hamm (28:08)
  • "That is very, very different than the dawn ritual of laying in bed talking for hours. Like one is just clearly a lie."
    — Mary Kathryn Hamm (30:03)
  • "When a lot of things are a lie, people stop believing everything."
    — Mary Kathryn Hamm (33:26)
  • "There’s like a lot of evidence throughout history that [marriage and raising kids] does make you happy. This new thing, though, there’s no evidence yet that it makes anybody happy."
    — Mary Kathryn Hamm (34:49)

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Episode Structure & Flow

• 00:00–03:13: Ad breaks, introduction, humor about podcast transcription errors and AI confusion with hosts’ names.
• 04:25–12:08: Iran escalation: analysis, media reactions, skepticism about regime honesty, U.S./China relations, Obama-era policies.
• 16:34–22:53: Cuba: Western solidarity tourism, Code Pink activism, Cuban repression, socialism vs. reality, the perpetual allure of failed ideologies.
• 27:02–35:15: Polyamory culture: Memoir critiques, mainstream pushback, social and personal repercussions, jokes about cultural trends and media honesty.
• End: Closing banter, encouragement to “act normally when things get weird.”

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Tone & Style

Smart, skeptical, punchy, and laced with both satire and earnest cultural criticism. The hosts blend direct quotations, current events, and pop culture references, making the episode accessible and entertaining—even for listeners who missed the episode.

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For more discussions, episodes air Tuesdays and Thursdays. Contact the show at normallythepodmail.com.

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Transcript

[Carol Markowitz]

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[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Hey, guys.

[Carol Markowitz]

We are back on normal. Show with normal, which takes for when the news gets weird.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

I am Mary Kathryn Ham. And I'm Carol Markowitz. Mary Kathryn. Our transcription service for this podcast has no idea what we're saying in the introduction.

[Carol Markowitz]

Who are these people?

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Hilariously wrong all the time. For some reason that, you know, I. Mary Kathryn Hamm. I'm Carol Markowitz. It becomes like, I don't even know.

[Carol Markowitz]

We gotta. We should start a thread on the different things it calls us.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah, it really. It's not even close. So I do enjoy that the last one was it had you saying I'm normally it's so. But normal if it takes for women's game. Weird. And mine was I am America. And I'm Carol Marco. How's it going, America Catherine?

[Carol Markowitz]

I think you know what, if that's the AI. Yeah, I feel okay for a little while still.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Right, America Catherine, though that's pretty good.

[Carol Markowitz]

Maybe I'll take that up. It's the 250th anniversary. It's probably that's what I'll be this year.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

All right, America Catherine, let's get into it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, my goodness.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

The war in Iran continues. Except that earlier today, President Trump said that he has ordered the strikes on Iran, Iran's energy facilities to be postponed for five days now, shortly after airing this information on Fox News. Trey Yings, who delivered that information, then tweeted that Iran denied that they were in talks. He said shortly after our report, Iranian state media denied the direct or indirect talks were taking place. U.S. officials say talks are happening. Iranian officials say they aren't. Yeah. So I don't know. We'll see what happens with that. But over the Weekend, Iran fired two intermediate range ballistic missiles at Diego Garcia, which is a joint US UK military base about 4,000km away in the middle of the Indian Ocean. Now, what was really interesting about that, and you and I had a good time laughing about it over the weekend, was that there were several people who were really surprised that Iran had lied about their missile capabilities.

[Carol Markowitz]

Don't you don't say it's true.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

It turns out Iran is not telling the truth. And this was a shock to some people. Piers Morgan, our old friend Piers Morgan, who now, by the way, blocks me on X, which, you know, understandable, he tweeted. So not only has Iran brazenly lied about its ballistic missile range capacity, but this means it can probably hit the UK with them. And if, and we have zero, I repeat, zero defense against these missiles. Very worrying.

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[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

That's what Donald Trump has been saying.

[Carol Markowitz]

That is worrisome. And that's what Marco Rubio was saying in 2015 when the first JCPOA Obama deal with Iran was made. And he's making these criticisms like, don't believe them about their missile capabilities, don't give them more capabilities. While we're at it, don't believe them when they tell you under the deal that they're not improving their capabilities. And now we have concrete proof, which although, as Piers notes, very worries worrisome, also shows the need for taking these capabilities out before they decide to go nuclear at some point.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah. Mike Cernovich, another ex person, tweeted something similar. He said Israel is far from perfect, but now everyone sees what Iran would do with more advanced weaponry. They're attacking Arab nations like a rabid dog. They had missiles that could reach Europe. They lied about everything. I, I said this to you in our personal text, but maybe it's the Russian in me. I just assume all of these regimes are lying. Why would you not? I, I just, it's so baffling to me, you know, going back to the Iraq war, which is what taints a lot of what we're doing today, because people are very gun shy, understandably, to get into a Middle Eastern entanglement, I fully understand. But even back then, Saddam Hussein lied about his weaponry. Now he exaggerated it, he made it seem better than it was, but he was still lying. And that's, you know, the crux of this thing where we cannot believe these people, we cannot trust these despots, just can't rely on anything that they say. And that's the mode of operation that we should have here.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, and you can't Just hear what you want to hear, which was what Obama did far too often is they wanted to make this deal and they wanted to have a deal done just for the sake of having a deal done. And again, it also blows my mind that there was a, there was a revolution, an attempted one, an uprising in Iran.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

During his first. Obama's first term. And then in the second term he was like, yeah, I didn't help you guys with that. So what I'm going to do now is I'm going to help the mullahs continue for about 10 years to get closer to nuclear, and I'm also going to give them a bunch of money and that he thought that that was gonna do good. And they still claim that it did good, even though we now see what the capabilities are and that that money did not open opportunities for the Iranian people. Surprise, surprise. And against all of that evidence, Ben Rhodes continues to tweet that the JCPOA was the way to go. And I just completely disagree. As I have said in the past, you cannot gentle parent the Middle East. And doing it with the moles is a bad idea.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah, I mean, it reminds me of that, like, Pawn Shop TV show where they're like, you know, we'd like a revolution. And Obama's like, the best I could do is pallets of cash for your oppressors.

[Carol Markowitz]

You know, let me serve that up. Yeah, it is, it's mystifying. And I do wonder, you know, does this long range or medium range strike or attempted strike mean that Iran is sort of flailing? It has seemed to be flailing since day one. Going after Arab states, solidifying, by the way, Arab state support, overt public support for this engagement by the US And Israel. Not silent behind the scenes, like, okay, it's fine if you hit them. They are talking about it. So they have really solidified that support on our side. And this is maybe continued flailing because they are sort of trying to see what sticks to the wall, which is dangerous. And also perhaps a clue that the 8,000 strikes we have made have made a difference.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Right. At some point, we're going to have to see the Iranian people rise up and take over here because there is only so much we could do from the air. I don't want boots on the ground. I don't think anybody does. And it's funny, Trump keeps threatening that because it's a very Trumpy thing to do. Like, all options are on the table, like we like to say about him. And, you know, it's also interesting because I think his primary pushback in the United States is this insane. I can't even call them right wing. I mean, on what planet are they right wing anymore? In the last few days, Tucker Carlson gave an interview to the very left wing Economist magazine in the UK and he was asked if the US should share power with China. And he gave one of his, like, of course, of course they should share power. Baffled that anyone would oppose the US and China being in some sort of power sharing relationship. Because America first now means, you know, being on equal footing with China, apparently.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

And this is the biggest kind of pushback that Trump has in the usa because the Democrats are basically out of the picture. They're hardly talking about this. More than just like, this isn't the way I would do it, but that's all they're doing. And yeah, so that's Trump's biggest political kind of hump here. Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

And as you say, in what way is that? America first. That there's a, an authoritarian regime that very obviously wants to not be in a partnership with us, but dominate us. And we're like, yeah, I think, I think we should do that because we wouldn't want to be a hegemon. That is like Howard Zinn stuff circa 2004.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Even worse. Really? Because interested, you know, they keep pushing this thing like, oh no, the Ayatollah said that there was a fatwa on nuclear weapons. Like, what? Why are you believing this?

[Carol Markowitz]

I mean, the, the Iranians also told Al Jazeera this week that that missile strike, false flag attack, of course, we had nothing to do with that missile that came from Iran. So the fatwas and the official spokespeople of Iran. Sure, go ahead and believe them with no, with no grain of salt.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Tune in to the woke. Right as they completely eat that up and spit it out to their gullible

[Carol Markowitz]

audience, along with the Obama bros. By the way, in case you want to see the horseshoe in action.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yep. So that's all the news we have about Iran, but we will continue to stay on this because it's obviously the biggest story around. I don't know. I don't know how much longer this lasts or if these talks are real. We're gonna probably have a better picture by our Thursday episode. We're gonna take a short break and be right back with more on normally.

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[Carol Markowitz]

All right, we are back on normally with a story out of Cuba and it is of Western influencers and political activists traveling to offer aid and comfort to commies. Not to the normal people of Cuba who have been under the thumb of the commies for all these years. No, no, no. They claim to be offering aid and support in light of the US embargo because of course it's the US that's the problem in Cuba. And they're showing up, of course with regime approval. They are staying in nice hotels. Medea Benjamin, head of Code Pink, filmed herself in a first class seat talking about how she was going to Cuba and I thought, aren't you supposed to be an economy? Isn't in your world, isn't there only economy seating? But just like most socialists of note, she ends up getting the good stuff while everybody else gets stuck in the back.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Membership has its privileges and now they

[Carol Markowitz]

were down in Cuba saving the day, I suppose. Right, Carol?

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Apparently. I mean, I've heard that they've done some really amazing humanitarian work. Was there a mural involved?

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes, we have some tape of some Code Pink folks painting a mural for the people of Havana which should fix the grid problems in no time. I am helping to leave a gift

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

and vision of Khomeinidad. This is the mural for humanity, and it's going to have little boats with notes in it of love and thank you for the words. You see how I brought to the bird on the other side. There'll be fishes and sea life here.

[Carol Markowitz]

And this is from a poem with

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

artists from all over the United States. Oh, my God, the keffiyas that they're wearing, these are the biggest clowns in the world. And they like that these people in Cuba are suffering under communism. They like that they're continuing to put up a fight and say, you know, an ideology that's been dead essentially for, like, 30 years, the Cubans still continue to live under. And these people go there and act like just poverty tourists. Look at. Look at how terrible their lives are. But at least they have really high literacy rate. And it's just. It's pathetic and sad that they don't want the Cuban people to have a better life because it fits in with their ideology, which is hating America and wanting America to fail. And so if America has this example of a communist country at their doorstep, you know, quote unquote, succeeding, I would say just surviving and barely, then that's all they really want to see.

[Carol Markowitz]

Can we talk about artist solidarity for a second? Because these are all these artists who are traveling down, including Hasan Piker, who hosts all of the 2028 hopefuls for the Democratic Democratic Party podcaster streamer. These are all, like, you know, free speech beneficiaries and arts, free art beneficiaries who travel down there to visit a regime that is right now, and this is just one of hundreds and thousands of political prisoners, but right now, imprisoning for nine years a reggaeton artist who had the crime of recording a uprising anthem called Patria Evita, which is a reversal of the regime's slogan, which is homeland or death. This is home and life. And he has been in jail for several years now, probably not humanely. And he's a political prisoner for his beliefs and for his art. And this reggaeton artist, and I believe there's one more who recorded it with him, they get no mention by any of these folks, the artistes who travel down to make murals. I mean, it's just ridiculous.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah, but has the guy in prison heard about the literacy rate? Because maybe that would change his perspective a little.

[Carol Markowitz]

I was listening to a Cuban American talk about this and she was like, people train to swim from Cuba, not just to Florida, but to Gitmo. They want to get to the land of Gitmo, which is the land of promise compared to Cuba. And, like, in that situation. No, no. You idiots. You useful idiots. This is not the land that you have romanticized with its 50s cars, which, by the way, exists because they've existed in the 50s since 1957.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah. Not to be cool. It's because that's all they have. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we finally finished Miracle on Ice. I know. It takes us forever to watch a movie as a family. We watch it like, half an hour at a time. What an ending. Really.

[Carol Markowitz]

So good.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

The movie they mentioned, the Berlin Wall, which got us talking with the kids about what that was and when it came down and all of that, and making the very obvious point that all the defections were only going in one direction. There were no defections going the opposite way. I mean, look, there were people who went to the Soviet Union and regretted it very much during that. During that whole period. But the open defections were never going to be like, the US Hockey players, like, I have to stay here. Just never. And there's a real good reason for that. So I think in the same way that I didn't think it was worth for Ron DeSantis to debate Gavin Newsom, because the debate had already happened in real life, and Florida won. I think in the exact same way capitalism won, freedom won, democracy won. It's. The argument has been over for such a long time. These people are just hanging on to something that doesn't exist anymore.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. I think, to me, unfortunately, you have to keep debating it to some extent, because younger people are just like, that sounds neat. And it's like, look, Westerners, I encourage you if you want to join LA revolution, it's happening 90 miles south of here. And you can have no streaming and no posting to Instagram because. And you can have rationed food and rationed healthcare and all those things. You can experience those in real life by just going 90 miles. And yet they still live here.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yep, Yep. And everybody comes in this direction.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

But, yeah, it. It's. You're not going to convince lifelong communists, but I guess it's worth convincing the younger generations that free stuff is not ever actually free. Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

It really isn't.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

We're gonna take a short break and be right back with more on normally.

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[Carol Markowitz]

All right, we are back on normally with some talk about people who are not normal and about whom I feel like I know far too much at this point. And that's polyamorists. Yeah, the polyamorists are at it again,

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Carol, which like it's like vegetarian crossfit polyamorous. Like you're going to find out in the first five minutes for sure.

[Carol Markowitz]

And what we have now is a new memoir called Adult Braces by a woman named Lindy west, who formerly had gotten some fame with another memoir that was became a TV show at one point. And this is about how she was in a marriage. The man named Aham who then decided he didn't want to be in a monogamous relationship anymore and so he convinced her that they should be polyamorous and that she should have a girlfriend and that not only that she should like live in the guest room sometimes so that he could be with the girlfriend. And this is all presented by her as an uplifting experience.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Right?

[Carol Markowitz]

But. But to reviewers and most readers it seems it is presented in a way that makes them go ooh girl, Right.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

That's the thing, is that this is a book about how happy she is to be in a polyamorous relationship. And I don't think the. The guest room is sometimes, but I could, I could be wrong on that. From what the impression I got was the girlfriend now lives in the be and she, Lindy west, is in the guest room. But it's okay because they like tuck her in at night and like treat

[Carol Markowitz]

her like a baby.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

And she loves that. But it is the thing is that everybody who reads this book, and I admittedly have not, but I've read all the discourse around it, just does not believe her. And that's a real problem for a memoir. If you're writing a memoir and people are saying, I don't buy any of this, they just don't trust your own version of your life. And I'm sure it's, you know, annoying to her because apparently she is very annoyed, but there's something to that and she should really maybe think about that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, there was another memoir of polyamorism recently called Molly. It was Molly Roden Winter was the writer. It was called More and she was in the same. It had the same vibe. And the vibe is that in every story of polyamory, which is they attempt to mainstream constantly is which the elite media in general, every time there's a person involved who is long suffering, long struggling, who has been admonished that they should get into this, that if they don't, that their thinking is backwards and dare I say, conservative, because they want one partner and they wrestle with their own issues with this and their insecurities. And you have constant back and forth and check ins with your partner about what the boundaries are. The boundary is just old fashioned. The boundary is that you should be with one person and that would make you happier. But they overcome their own issues with it to acquiesce to their partner's desires. And it looks like just long term emotional abuse to me.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Absolutely. Yeah. That's the feeling I get for most polyamorous stories. But what I would say about Lindy is that it even goes beyond that. So in the Atlantic, a writer named Helen Lewis reviewed the book. And just all the stuff around Lindy west and this is the part that really caught my attention. She writes, even her relationship wasn't all that it seemed. In her 2019 essay collection, the Witches Are Coming, she had written that she and Ulu, that's her husband's last name, her quote unquote best friend, and a quote unquote once In a generation, musical talent had a dawn ritual where they lay in bed talking for hours. And as I'm, as I'm reading this, I'm like, that's very nice. That's my husband and I don't have a dawn ritual where we lay in bed talking for hours. So Lewis goes on in adult braces. Lindy adds that what I admitted is that we only developed that ritual to mitigate a toxic pattern we'd been stuck in for years. I'd wake up anxious. I'd vomit my anxiety on. Ahem. He'd snap at me for triggering his anxiety. I'd feel alone and unsupported. I'd stare at him with tears in my eyes until he had a panic attack. He'd zone out for the rest of the day and not listen to a word I said, like, ma', am, that is very, very different than the dawn ritual of laying in bed talking for hours like one is just clearly a lie. Yes, that's what you do. But the conversation is brutal and horrible.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes. And the, by the way, the, the idea of going back and forth about this terribleness over and over again, it's just like, like maybe you're not dealing with the root of the problem, which is that there are several people in this relationship and at least one of you guys probably doesn't really want to be there.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

I recommend that Helen Lewis article, by the way, even if you're not at all interested in this Lindy west story, because it is also about, and she titles it the Death of Millennial Feminism. I'd say it's not specifically millennial feminism that died here. It's really wokeness, woke culture. And Lewis does a really good job of writing out what was so annoying about it and why it couldn't survive and why it pushed people like her away.

[Carol Markowitz]

Tyler Harper Austin, who also writes for the Atlantic, had a piece on this and we spoke just now about the horseshoe horseshoe theory on Iran. And he touches on something that kind of amuses me about these polyamorous, which is that they end up making their own sexual relationships, this political project. He writes that West's devotion to Aham also made me think of a different sort of wife, one whom west herself would most likely object to being compared to the right wing trad wife who treats her husband as if he was a God and says that her duty is to submit to him. Indeed, in many ways, West's performatively anti white, unpatriotic and cosmopolitan version of polyamory is the blue state mirror image of Tradwifery, which in its various forms, blah, blah, blah. He says such a, you know, both romantic trends have adherents who spin their retreat from status quo romance as a kind of liberation from modern expectations and who position their marital arrangements as the logical extension of a deeper political project. So we have this horseshoe effect going on here too. And in both, it's like you're creating a product and sort of telling everyone how great it is when the lived experience of it looks very different to everyone, even from your explaining of it.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah. And that's also why I think it's so hard for people to believe that marriage and children is a fulfilling, happy, you know, path in life. Like, all these young people don't believe it. And I think partly it's because they get lied to in these memoirs and they could tell and they're like, everything's a lie. And that, you know, we talked about that a lot on here too, how when a lot of things are a lie, people stop believing everything.

[Carol Markowitz]

The cut, by the way, ran a piece too that was like, can, could opening your marriage lighten your mental load? Answer, no, no, no, it will not like you. You'd rather just do more laundry than doing that. I promise you. And indeed, in that piece at the end, you find out this. In this case, it's a woman who wanted to open her marriage. And you find out at the end that there was a man who she talked into it who was like, confesses eventually to not feeling very comfortable with it. It's like, yeah, don't do that to your partner.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah, it seems like it should be an easy call. Don't get talked into having a side person in your relationship. But, you know, what do we know? We were just going by thousands of years of history.

[Carol Markowitz]

Like, somebody tweeted, I wish I could reference it specifically, but tweeted that, like, there's been a 10 year project on polyamory to convince you that being normal and married and raising some kids would not make you happy, when in fact it'll probably make you happy. Like, you can just do that.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

There's like a lot of evidence throughout history that it does make you happy. This new thing, though there's no evidence yet that it makes anybody happy. And, and, you know, the show Arrested Development had this great part where this couple was talking about opening their marriage and he says, you know, something like, oh, you know, a lot of people do it. And the wife says, does it work for them? And he says, no, but we could be the first.

[Carol Markowitz]

Good luck.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah, good luck with that. And thanks for joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your pot podcast. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening and when things get weird, act normally.

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