Normally Podcast: Katie Porter, Violence in Politics, and a Key Supreme Court Free Speech Case

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show – "Normally Podcast: Katie Porter, Violence in Politics, and a Key Supreme Court Free Speech Case"

Date: October 9, 2025 Hosts: Mary Katharine Ham and Carol Markowitz

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Overview

This episode of "Normally" (a segment of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show) dives into three main topics: California politics with a focus on Katie Porter’s controversial interview, the recent increase in political violence and the media reactions to it, and a significant Supreme Court case on free speech in therapy involving faith and gender identity. Hosts Mary Katharine Ham and Carol Markowitz provide sharp analysis, candid opinions, and a dose of humor as they dissect news and current events through a "normal" lens.

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1. Katie Porter’s Interview Meltdown and California Governor's Race

Timestamp: 03:54–12:53

Key Discussion Points

• Katie Porter, a Democratic front-runner for California governor, had a contentious interview with a CBS reporter that went viral for its awkwardness and Porter's visible frustration.
• Clip highlights Porter bristling at questions regarding the 40% of California voters who voted for Trump, and her seeming refusal to acknowledge the need to reach out beyond the Democratic base.
• The hosts critique Porter's attitude, describing her as “insufferable and so soft” (08:02).
• Both hosts highlight the danger of California’s one-party system and Porter's expectation that reporters should behave as personal PR agents, not objective journalists.
• Porter’s personal controversies, including reports of her pouring scalding mashed potatoes on her ex-husband and berating staff, are discussed to underscore the disconnect between her public persona and reported private behavior.
• They emphasize how a lack of challenge from the media harms Democratic politicians who are unaccustomed to tough questions.

Notable Quotes

• Carol Markowitz [07:24]: "Hidden in that insanity was a normal answer that she couldn’t limit herself to. It’s crazy."
• Mary Katharine Ham [08:30]: "I think this is so revealing of the world in which California Democrats, Democrats generally, but California Democrats, one state, one party rule in a state type of people in which they live. Which is. She sees this reporter as her PR person."
• Carol Markowitz [11:17]: "Who knows, when we get President of the United States, who knows how far she will soar?"
• Mary Katharine Ham [12:04]: "And it has so many normal people. And Steve Hilton is the GOP… It’s a jungle primary, which means everybody vote for anyone…"

Memorable Moments

• Extended laughter and incredulity at Porter's belief that she can simply "call it" and stop an interview on camera (09:21).
• The discussion of the "mashed potato" incident and staffer mistreatment (10:03–10:49).
• Closing reflections on the challenges for normal, moderate Californians in a heavily Democratic state (11:38–12:53).

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2. Political Violence and the Rush to Assign Blame

Timestamp: 16:35–23:39

Key Discussion Points

• Discussion centers on recent incidents of political violence (or the appearance of it), including a liberal South Carolina judge’s home explosion that sparked unfounded accusations before facts were established.
• Carol recounts her own experience with a friend prematurely attributing the incident to political motives ("we don’t even know what happened yet").
• Mary Katharine details a D.C. incident where an anti-SCOTUS, anti-Jew, anti-Catholic protester was arrested with over 200 explosives outside a mass attended by Supreme Court justices.
• The hosts critique the asymmetrical media treatment and public expectations around political violence—pointing out that left-wing violence often gets less attention or rushes to blame right-wingers without evidence.
• Nancy Pelosi’s tepid response when asked about violent political rhetoric is highlighted, contrasted with the serious nature of threats she herself has endured.

Notable Quotes

• Carol Markowitz [18:16]: "This month the demand for right wing violence is outstripping the supply."
• Mary Katharine Ham [19:51]: "[A would-be assassin] has now been sentenced to only eight years in prison. Just… maybe you’re incentivizing more of this by not punishing it very dramatically."
• Mary Katharine Ham [22:24]: "Take a pause. 24-hour rule should actually be applied to everything. Like, when you get any kind of news, just give it 24 hours. You don’t have to run with your immersion of events."
• Carol Markowitz [21:26]: "(He) just wants to murder the children of his political opponents… bananas."

Memorable Moments

• Real-time reflection on the “rush to judgment” and the importance of waiting for facts—“Wait for your info… not that crazy.” (23:39)
• Mention of left-wing activists ramming ICE vehicles and being released on bail (23:03).

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3. Supreme Court Free Speech Case: Childs v. Salazar (Conversion Therapy & Gender Identity)

Timestamp: 27:16–34:00

Key Discussion Points

• The hosts explore why Colorado is repeatedly at the center of Supreme Court cases involving religious liberty and free speech, referencing past cases (Masterpiece Cakeshop, etc.).
• The latest case centers on Kaylee Childs, a Christian therapist challenging Colorado's ban on certain types of "conversion therapy," particularly regarding gender dysphoria in children.
• Mary Katharine and Carol articulate why bans on talk therapy tailored to parents’ religious values may constitute viewpoint discrimination and violate the First Amendment.
• They discuss differences between therapy for gender vs. sexual orientation, the effectiveness of interventions, and concerns over professional organizations mandating only one path for therapy regardless of client values or needs.
• The emotional and financial toll on regular people forced into costly and highly public legal battles is acknowledged, along with appreciation for organizations like Alliance Defending Freedom.

Notable Quotes

• Mary Katharine Ham [28:14]: "It’s disturbing that the people of Colorado, people of faith in Colorado… they have to go to the Supreme Court."
• Carol Markowitz [29:02]: "There is not a lot of evidence that you can convert people out of being gay. So it really is a different thing… there’s a lot of evidence that you can convert kids… to accepting their bodies as is."
• Mary Katharine Ham [33:30]: "When it feels like an extension of sort of the lefty college take on speech in general, which is like the truth is already decided. The solution is already decided. End of discussion."
• Carol Markowitz [33:05]: "We chose this life. She did not. She’s just a therapist. She just wants to help kids."

Memorable Moments

• Candid reflections on professional pressures faced by therapists and families seeking faith-based care for children with gender dysphoria (30:41–31:38).
• Reminder of how quickly Colorado shifted from "normie" purple/red to progressive test case (32:25).

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Additional Highlights

• Multiple running jokes about “acting normally” and the show’s recurring recommendation: take a pause, don’t rush to judgment—emphasizing the “normal” approach to news and complex issues.
• Good-natured ribbing over technology (dogs eating towels, kids with croup, etc.) helping set a relatable, conversational tone.
• Shout-outs to journalists and activists in Colorado, and to each other's books on related subjects.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Katie Porter's interview breakdown: 03:54–12:53
• Political violence & media reaction: 16:35–23:39
• Supreme Court free speech case: 27:16–34:00

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Tone & Atmosphere

• The episode is lighthearted and humorous, even when delving into serious issues.
• The hosts balance earnest critique with personal anecdotes and playful banter.
• Language is punchy, informal, and candid, mirroring what listeners might expect from engaging columnists rather than stern pundits.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a lively, critical take on the current state of politics and culture. By shining light on media biases, legal battles over free speech, and the challenges of navigating public discourse in a polarized climate, Mary Katharine Ham and Carol Markowitz encourage listeners to embrace skepticism, patience, and—most importantly—"act normally" even when the news gets weird.

Transcript

[Mary Katharine Ham]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Carol Markowitz]

Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Sophia Bush]

This message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails in place. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up Chores Automate allowance and keep an eye on what your kids are spending for with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk [e-mail] iheart hey everyone, it's Sophia Bush, host of the podcast Work in Progress. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard. For me, a standard that matters to me is being a friend, being a person, being a coworker who shows up. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to Experience amazing. Lexis's benchmarks are feelings, things like exhilaration and joy. And amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. It's feeling like your car was designed and built just for you. A machine that makes you feel more human, because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. So experience amazing at your Lexus dealer.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Hey, guys, we are back on normal. Your show with normal it takes for when the news gets weird. I am Mary Kathryn Haney.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I am Carol Markowitz. How are you doing, Mary Kathryn?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

We're doing all right. We're having quite a week. Two kids with croup. One dog had surgery because the allegedly smartest dog on the planet ate a microfiber towel. So he lost his crown. He lost his crown.

[Carol Markowitz]

Sometimes smart people and dogs do not so smart things.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

It's fine. We're fine. We're getting through it. We're getting through it. All right. Well, the dog's doing well, so we got that going for us.

[Carol Markowitz]

We're rooting for the dog. Hoping the kids feel better soon. And hope you're doing. Hope you're holding up over there.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah, we're all right.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, we've got sort of a California heavy episode. Both of our first topics touch on it. Katie Porter is the front runner to be the Democratic nominee for the governor of California. She's poised to take over from Gavin, and she was having what could only be described as a fairly softball interview at CBS when she completely lost her mind. Let's roll that clip.

[CBS Reporter]

What do you say to the 40% of California voters who you'll need in order to win who voted for Trump?

[Katie Porter]

How would I need them in order to win?

[CBS Reporter]

Well, unless you think you're going to get 60% of the vote. You think you'll get 60% all everybody who did not vote for Trump will vote for you.

[Katie Porter]

That's what you're in a general election? Yes. If it is me versus a Republican, I think that I will win. The people who did not vote for Trump.

[CBS Reporter]

What if it's you versus another Democrat?

[Katie Porter]

I don't intend that to be the case.

[CBS Reporter]

So how do you not intend that.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

To be the case?

[CBS Reporter]

Do you. Are you going to ask them not to run?

[Katie Porter]

No, no. I'm saying I'm going to build the support. I have the support already in terms of name recognition. And so I'm going to do the very best I can to make sure that we get through this primary in a really strong position. But let Me be clear with you, I represented Orange County, I represented a purple area. I have stood on my own two feet and won Republican votes before. That's not something every candidate in this race can say. If you're from a deep blue area, if you're from LA or you're from Oakland, you haven't, you don't have an experience.

[CBS Reporter]

You just said you don't need those Trump voters.

[Katie Porter]

Well, you asked me if I needed them to win, so you don't. I feel like this is unnecessarily argumentative. What is your question?

[CBS Reporter]

The question is the same thing I asked everybody, that this is being called the Empowering voters to Stop Trump's power Grab. Every other candidate has answered this question. This is not correct.

[Katie Porter]

And I said I support it.

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[CBS Reporter]

And the question is, what do you say to the 40% of voters who voted for Trump?

[Katie Porter]

Oh, I'm happy to say that it's the, do you need them to win? Part that I don't understand. I'm happy to answer the question as you have it written and I'll answer it.

[CBS Reporter]

And we've also asked the other candidates, do you think you need any of those 40% of California voters to win? And you're saying no, you don't.

[Katie Porter]

No, I'm saying I'm going to try to win every vote I can. And what I'm saying to you is.

[CBS Reporter]

That, well, to those voters. Okay, so you, I don't want to keep doing this.

[Katie Porter]

I'm going to call it. Thank you.

[CBS Reporter]

You're not gonna do the interview with us?

[Katie Porter]

Nope, not like this I'm not. Not with seven follow ups to every.

[CBS Reporter]

Single question you ask every other candidate has answered.

[Katie Porter]

I don't care. I want to have a pleasant, positive conversation which you ask me about every issue on this list. And if every question you're gonna make up a follow up question, then we're never gonna get there and we're just gonna circle around.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Ever.

[CBS Reporter]

You've never had to have a conversation.

[Katie Porter]

With, to end an interview.

[CBS Reporter]

Okay, but every other candidate has done this.

[Katie Porter]

What part of I'm me, I'm running for governor because I'm a leader, so I am going to make.

[CBS Reporter]

So you're not going to answer questions from reporters. Okay, why don't we go through. I will continue to ask follow up questions because that's my job as a journalist, but I will go through and ask these. And if you don't want to answer, you don't want to answer. So nearly every legislative.

[Katie Porter]

I am, I don't want to have an unhappy experience with you. And I don't want this all on camera.

[CBS Reporter]

I don't want to have an unhappy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Experience with you either.

[CBS Reporter]

I would love to continue to ask these questions so that we can show our viewers what every candidate feels about every one of these issues that they care about. And redistricting, it's a massive issue. We're going to do an entire story just on the responses to that question. And I've asked everybody the same follow up question.

[Carol Markowitz]

Hidden in that insanity was a normal answer that she couldn't limit herself to. It's crazy.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

It's so embarrassing. This, this person is so insufferable and so soft. The question is, the question is simply 40% of Californians voted for Trump. You're running to be governor. You might end up in a head to head with a Republican. But regardless what, what do you think about reaching out to those people? It's just analyzing her own race and she can't do it.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

She's like, don't need them. Don't need them. And you know what? I sort of get what she's saying. She's like, why would I need 40% when I can get the 60%? Because, ma', am, you might not win that whole 60. Like, hello. And that's what this very nice reporter was trying to explain to her. Like, then you're going to need the entire 60 in order to win. And she's like, I'm gonna get the entire 60. You know, I was telling this story to somebody today and they were like, oh, is that the new cbs? Like, no, it's the old cbs. It's not very ycbs. This is like also, come on.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I, I think this is so revealing of the world in which California Democrats, Democrats generally, but California Democrats, one state, one party rule in a state type of people in which they live. Which is. She sees this reporter as her PR person.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. She's like, why are you messing up my moment?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

She says, and she says, I've never had to do this.

[Carol Markowitz]

Never, ever. Mm.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

You've never had to answer follow up questions. A clarified follow up question to a very easy question to start with. So that that's betraying something. She then says she wants to have a positive interaction with this person. That's not the reporter's job. She, she's being perfectly pleasant, but that is not her job. And then she says, I'm calling it. Ma', am, do you know how a camera works? I know you can't call it.

[Carol Markowitz]

What are you talking about? She I don't want to do this on camera. You already did. You did it on camera.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

It's too late. Too late. I. This is just. I said this on Fox this morning. This is the bare minimum for doing politics. It's just, you have to think about all the voters and you have to just at least entertain how you might talk to all of them.

[Carol Markowitz]

They just don't know at all. And it's so bad for them. I know we talk about this all the time. It is so bad for the Democrats that they are never challenged because when they are challenged in the most peaceful, calm way, they lose the plot. I will say, though, she is not known for being peaceful or calm.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

No, no.

[Carol Markowitz]

Katie Porter's ex husband, who, by the way, filed a restraining order against her, says that she poured scalding mashed potatoes on his head. Now, I know people say all kinds of things when they're getting divorced, but that's pretty darn specific.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah. She also famously berated at least one staffer for having, quote, unquote, given her Covid. And she goes real hard in the texts on this poor woman who I think was bereaved at the time or something. There was something going on in that staffer's life, and it's just brutal. Yeah. And then I think we noted that our friend Yashar got two, I think, two responses from former Katie Porter staffers who were like, hey, imagine what she's like with the cameras off.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. That lady, I mean, good luck, California. Because she is the front runner.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I do, I think, like, I always tell my kids that a good attitude is like a huge part of succeeding in life. And, you know, you gotta put a smile on your face. You gotta.

[Carol Markowitz]

Turns out, maybe not.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And then they're gonna pull this video on me someday and be like, mom, this woman became governor of California.

[Carol Markowitz]

But who knows, when we get President of the United States, you know, like, who knows how far she will soar?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

She was in the house, by the way. Shame on that purple county for not sniffing her out.

[Carol Markowitz]

Like, come on, where was that 40%?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And like, by the way, this is a real Iraq, Iran situation. But I enjoy that Adam Schiff snaked her out of the senator position, which is the last thing she ran for. So she has lost before. We'll see how it goes.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. I mean, look, I've always had a warm spot for California. I, you know, I like, I always like to tell people what used to be my plan B. Like when New York, if New York were to go to shit, I'd Go to California. Like what?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

That's a sweet thought, you summer child.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. So I love California. I would love to see it be a normal place with normal people. Yeah. Living normally.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And it has so many normal people. And Steve Hilton is the gop. I don't know if there's other people in that primary as well. It's a jungle primary, which means everybody vote for anyone in the primary, Democrat or Republican. Steve Hilton is in there. Former Fox. Fox.

[Carol Markowitz]

He's great. Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Host and he's great. So that was the point that this reporter was trying to make is like, you might not necessarily be up against a Republican.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And then you have to do more work.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. And she was like, you might be up against a Democrat. And she's like, well, I'm going to make sure that doesn't happen. Like, how are you gonna.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Probably by being super mean to everyone and putting mashed potatoes on them.

[Carol Markowitz]

Threatening them with like hot mashed potatoes.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I just, I. I know this is where we are, but. Woo. What a.

[Carol Markowitz]

Do better California. Come on.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

What a peach. What a peach that lady is.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. Well, we're gonna take a short break and be right back with more on normally.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Ugh.

[Carol Markowitz]

Come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Mary Katharine Ham]

Whoa.

[Sophia Bush]

This thing moves.

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[Ed Helms]

Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here and hi, I'm Kal.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay.

[Ed Helms]

The Audible and Iheart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer.

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What role would I play?

[Carol Markowitz]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that, but are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett here, listen to earsay the Audible and I heart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Ed Helms]

Are 20 to 50% off right now, and iHeart listeners are getting an extra 15% off almost everything with code iHEARTAF. Get your hands on the viral Essential popover hoodie and the rest of A&F's essentials collection. Shop the sale in the Abercrombie app online and in stores. 20 to 50% off all sweatshirts and sweatpants is valid in US and Canada through oxygen. October 13, 2025 excludes clearance online price reflects discount. Use code IHEARTAF for an extra 15% off almost everything through October 13, 2025 in US and Canada. Exclusions apply. See details online.

[Sophia Bush]

Hey everyone, it's Sophia Bush, host of the podcast Work in Progress. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard. For me, a standard that matters to me is being a friend, being a person, being a coworker who shows up. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus benchmarks are feelings, things like exhilaration and joy, and amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. It's feeling like your car was designed and built just for you, a machine that makes you feel more human, because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. So experience amazing at your Lexus dealer.

[Carol Markowitz]

Welcome back to Normally, where our second topic is political violence. There seems to be a lot of it lately and you know, people are kind of losing the plot a little bit. And I know this is the second time I've used that phrase in the last two segments, but it really feels like people are losing it. Yeah, a few days ago, a judge's home exploded on a South Carolina island. She's a liberal South Carolina judge, Diane Goodstein. Her home burnt to the ground, her family barely escaped. Apparently she had gotten threats, although we don't really know if that's true. A friend of mine who I like him a lot and I'm not going to call him out by name, but wrote to me and said a Jewish judge's home is burning in an explosion that's been labeled arson. Less than a day after Stephen Miller tweeted that liberal judges are shielding an insurrection by left wing terrorists. Now you know, use your considerable platform to condemn this. I was like, we don't even know what happened yet. I'm like, it could be a pre Palestine lefty. We have no idea, like literally no idea what happened here. I'm going to hold off and wait. To my friend's credit, it turns out that it's not arson. It looks like it's not arson. And he apologized, which is the correct thing to do in that situation. But this rush to judgment, none. Everything that happens to political figures is going to have a political motive. And I think we're in a moment right now where the left is really hoping that some right wingers do some crazy things so that they can point to it and be like, see, you guys have a problem too. But it is all mostly coming from one side. And while you guys wait to find that, here's a story from Mary Katherine about yet another leftist.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah, it does. It does seem at the moment this month the demand for right wing violence is outstripped, is really outstripping the supply. And like, look, like you said we could see something different in the future. But this one, this is from D.C. and I heard about this story and much like you in the early going, I was like, I'm not going to comment on that because it looks suspicious, but I don't know what happened. Here's what happened. A man arrested outside the annual Red Mass ceremony held at St. Matthew's Cathedral in D.C. had over 200 explosive devices in a tent on the church's stairs. According to police, Lewis Gary, 41, touted homemade explosives when officers approached him on the step ahead of the service, typically attended by Supreme Court justices to ring in a new term. Devices were found inside his front pocket in a backpack he was carrying on the scene, in addition to a tent encampment set up in close proximity to the cathedral. Which side of the aisle likes tent encampments? It turns out he's anti scotus, anti Jew, anti Catholic. It just like when we don't know a right winger. When we don't know. Pause. Yeah, when we do know, let's deal with it. Exactly. And this one seems particularly scary as I believe last year at the Red Mass, at least three conservative justices attended that mass. So if you're looking to do damage, as we know that at least one other would be assassin has been looking to do and has now been sentenced to Only eight years in prison.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yep.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

By the way, just a little idea. Maybe you're incentivizing more of this by not punishing it very dramatically.

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

So that's what's going on there. And I, I want to add this to it. Nancy Pelosi was on Dana Bash's show this week, asked about Jay Jones's texts. And let's just hear the, the rousing condemnation she had for that.

[Katie Porter]

Should he get out of the race? That's up to the people. The leaders in Virginia, they have said he has apologized. What I understand is they say that on balance, he's the better person to be at home, Attorney General, but that's up to them. But I wish there would be enough fuss. Of all the times that people have said they were going to put a bullet in my head right in public, in the public.

[Carol Markowitz]

I think it's because of that.

[CBS Reporter]

That's one of the reasons I wanted to ask you that.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

You are somebody who knows all too.

[CBS Reporter]

Well in a horrific way, we have.

[Katie Porter]

To get rid of that kind of language. I mean, it's just not appropriate.

[CBS Reporter]

If you were Abigail Spamberger, who's the.

[Katie Porter]

Democrat running for governor, would you call on him to step aside? She has to do what she has to do. She's going to be governor. She's running very well. Everybody's very proud of her candidacy. And her race is her race and her state is her state, and it's up to her. I really don't get involved in other people's races that the mayor of New York, that this, of that. It's up to the people in that state. I respect their judgment and wish them well.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

So, yeah, Nancy just says, like, on balance, I think he's probably better than the normie Republican ag. That's what I've heard. Yeah. It should be fine.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, I mean, it's totally fine. He just wants to murder the children of his political opponents because the parents were nice to moderate Democrats. I mean, it's just bananas. As we're recording this, a man has been arrested for setting the fires in California. A Florida man. Sorry, guys, but we don't know his politics yet. Although they are chomping at the bit to be like, well, he's from Florida, so he must be a conservative. But it really also betrays the whole climate change set this fire. And I want to hear some people maybe apologize for that or, you know, have some thoughts about not immediately jumping to your issue of the moment. In order to lay blame for any natural disaster or horrific event. Take A pause. Take a beat, Think it over. Wait for facts. These are all normal things to do when things go badly.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Take a pause. 20. 24 hour rule.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. 24 hour rule should actually be applied to everything. Like when you, when you get any kind of news, just give it 24 hours. You don't have to run with your immersion of events. Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah. This happens on so many immigration stories too, which I look into all of them. Right. Because I am concerned with ICE overstepping. I am concerned with Trump doing things he shouldn't do. And at invariably, outside of like, two of them, you come across so much more pertinent, pertinent information. Oh, by the way, two lefties were arrested for ramming ICE vehicles.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

In the Chicago area and they were let out on bail.

[Carol Markowitz]

Just Right. And there's a story that Chicago police, that's what they didn't, didn't step in to help ice. And that is really a misuse of, you know, government officials telling police to stand down because they're anti ice. Your political opinion shouldn't be involved with who the police step in to help. I think it's just atrocious. Governor Pritzker is using the police in a manner that I think people are afraid that Donald Trump will use the police. And, you know, there's some irony there as well.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Wait for your info.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, not that crazy. All right, we'll be right back with more on normally where a Supreme Court case should be wrapping up in the next day or two on the question of conversion therapy. But who's doing the converting? We'll be right back. Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Mary Katharine Ham]

And hi, I'm Kal Penn and we're.

[Ed Helms]

The hosts of Irsay, the Audible and Iheart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the Iheart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer.

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You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

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Here.

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Listen to Irsay the Audible and I Heart Audio Book Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Carol Markowitz]

We are back on normally, where the Childs vs Salazar case is winding its way through the Supreme Court. You know, it's funny. Why is Colorado the place where court cases involving free speech and religious freedom seem to be the norm? I mean, there's the Masterpiece cake shop case where of course, Jack Phillips was forced to or, you know, they wanted to force him to bake the cake. There was also a website designer who didn't want to make websites for same sex marriages because it violated her religious freedom. Supreme Court ruled in her favor on that. And now Kaylee Childs is a therapist in Colorado and she's at the center of this case because she's a devout Christian and people seek out her services because of her faith to talk to their children who are having gender dysphoria.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

It's disturbing that the people of Colorado, people of faith in Colorado, which like, used to be a normie state, they have to go to the Supreme Court.

[Carol Markowitz]

Like every time things settled. Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

He's like, can I do my job? I don't know, let's go to the Supreme Court and figure it out. No, I think this is like, this is one of those tricky issues where a lot of places banned, say like faith based conversion therapy for young gay kids. Right. Or for, for gay minors. Right. And they would say that you can't do that anymore. And it is an unpopular opinion. But I've always thought that was a First Amendment issue. Because if you aren't allowed to talk about this possibility versus another possibility, isn't that viewpoint discrimination? And doesn't it cut against people of faith in particular?

[Carol Markowitz]

Absolutely.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

So now we're going to be testing it, at least in this, in this gender related area.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. You know, I have a column on this. I think it should be out today, Thursday in the New York Post. But I actually say that there is not a lot of evidence that you can convert people out of being gay. So it really is a different thing because there's a lot of evidence that you can convert kids or not convert, but basically talk to them into accepting them, their bodies as is. And there's a lot of evidence that, that kids do outgrow that gender dysphoria. Kids don't outgrow when, when they declare themselves gay, they generally don't outgrow that. So those are really two different things. The other thing is, I think when people hear conversion therapy, I, I picture the electroshock therapy of the 60s and 70s.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

Which also didn't work. So it's, this is not that she's talking to kids and making them accept their bodies as is, which is really what we should want. Right. I mean, so in, in this case, Justice Sonia Sotomayor compared it to a dietitian telling an anorexic patient to engage in more restricted eating, but in my view, it's a dietitian. In this example is are all the therapists who are telling these children that they are not in the correct body and that they could take hormones and they could have surgery and they could do all these things to change their birth gender. You can't Change that. And no matter what you do, no matter how much you try, you remain the gender that you were born into. It doesn't matter how you dress or how much makeup you wear or any of it, you stay what you are. So to me, the example here is Chiles is the dietitian from that example.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah. No, this is, it's disturbing to me as a mom. And I know you guys wrote about this in Stolen Youth, which is yours in Bethany Mandel's book.

[Carol Markowitz]

Love that you mentioned the book like.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And Abigail Schreyer writes about it as well, and Bad Therapy. But there is this concern, and I have it as a normie. Right leaning mom of faith, is that these professional associations that license therapists or states in this case, require that they go down certain therapeutic paths.

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

When maybe my kid just needs to talk to somebody. But as soon as I send my kid in there, if your solution to their problem is that they might be another gender, that's going to be a problem for me.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

But if the, if the professional association you're working with or the state that you live in requires that that's how you treat issues, then you're in a bind and the whole profession is in trouble.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right. Yeah. That's the thing. All these licensing organizations, they make them handle problems in a certain way. And I understand a Christian family in Colorado would want to talk to a Christian therapist who would have their same values and their same kind of ideals and how she treats their child. The fact that this has to get to the Supreme Court, like you said, it's bananas that Colorado just keeps pushing these people into it. Masterpiece Cake Shop is in another court case where this time he didn't bake a cake for a transgender, I believe, wedding. It just goes on and on and on and on, and it's really wrong. I remember when Colorado was a normal state. I worked in Colorado on the Bush 2004 campaign. It was a red state.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yes. So there's so many great things in Colorado, including friend of the show Kelly Maher, who does, who does great work out there. But the idea that these totally normal people have to drag themselves to the Supreme Court and thank goodness there are good organizations like Alliance Defending Freedom that take up these cases so they don't break themselves having to do it. But you know, the emotional toll and the financial toll and the toll to their actual business that they're trying to conduct on a day to day basis is very, very high. To get through these battles and to be like a semi public figure which they never planned on being before. Right. We chose this life. They did not.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh totally. Yeah, we chose the stupid life. She's just a therapist. She just wants to help kids. She just wants to talk to people and help them with their problems. And there has to be more than one way to do that. And it is a free speech issue. Talk therapy should be the way that it gets solved in in these therapists office. It can't be one way or no.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Other way when it feels like an extension of sort of the lefty college take on speech in general, which is like the truth is already decided. Yeah, the solution is already decided.

[Carol Markowitz]

End of discussion. Somebody might say that's Mary Catherine's book with Guy Benson.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah, we can't talk about it further. And the truth is both in a doctor's office, whether it's Covid vaccines or gender dysphoria, or in a college setting, you need to talk about it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Thanks for joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally. Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Whoa, this thing moves.

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Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech [e-mail] Unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.

[Ed Helms]

This is Buzz Knight from Taking a Walk. Lexus believes in the importance of standards. One of my standards I never want to be late. I always want to show up on time. For Lexus, the standard is simple. IT experience amazing. Their benchmarks aren't stats or specs, they're feelings, exhilaration, joy. That sense your car was designed just for you. Machines built to make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing Experience. Amazing at your Lexus dealer.

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