Normally Podcast: Rescue Mission Miracle, Iran Tensions & Student Loan Escape Scandal

Summary

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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show – “Normally: Rescue Mission Miracle, Iran Tensions & Student Loan Escape Scandal”

Date: April 7, 2026
Hosts: Carol Markowitz, Patrick Hamm
Guest Contributors: Trey Yingst, Victor Glover (audio), with discussion referencing Mary Katharine Ham, Bridget Phetasy, and others

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Episode Overview

This episode of “Normally” tackles three major topics: the dramatic U.S. rescue of a downed airman in Iran, rising tension with Iran and the Trump administration’s volatile posture, the celebratory mood around America’s 250th year (highlighted by the Artemis moon mission), and a sharp critique of a recent New York Times piece profiling Americans who default on student loans by moving abroad. The hosts bring an unabashedly patriotic, often humorous lens, reflecting on American resilience at home and abroad—and the mindset behind controversial contemporary issues.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Iran Rescue Mission: A Modern-Day Miracle

• Event Recap:
  After an F-15E fighter jet was shot down over Iran, the U.S. military undertook a high-risk rescue mission. The pilot was recovered quickly, but the weapon systems officer (“Wizzo”) evaded capture for over 48 hours before ultimately being rescued.

• Emotional Responses:

  • Hosts express "uncomplicated, excited, joyful, glad feelings" (Patrick, 05:42) about the outcome, emphasizing patriotism and pride in American military capability.
  • Carol confesses to real fear during the airman's 24-hour disappearance and refuses to "comment on something that was touch and go" (Carol, 03:38).

• Political & Social Media Reaction:

  • Hosts criticize the politicization of the event, notably a tweet by Senator Tim Kaine and reactions from both the right and left:

    “He’s mad that the guy has lost, except he’s mostly mad about politics, it sounds like.”
    (Patrick, 04:18)

  • They call out “confused” reactions from those who “root against the mission, the president, and the country” (Carol, 07:07).

• Rescue Mission Details (Trey Yingst Report, 08:56–12:05):

  • U.S. and Israeli intelligence coordinated to locate and retrieve the downed officer.
  • A CIA deception campaign misled Iranian forces, while U.S. Special Operations executed the ground rescue.
  • Hostile fire forced helicopters to abort, but ultimately over 100 special forces completed the mission with no loss of life.
  • Notable gratitude expressed by Israel’s PM Netanyahu to President Trump for the operation.

  Memorable Quote:

  “You have this amazing place, this spaceship... Maybe the distance we are from you makes you think what we're doing is special, but we're the same distance from you. And I'm trying to tell you, just trust me, you are special in all of this emptiness... this oasis... that we get to exist together."
  – Victor Glover (astronaut), reflecting on Earth from space, (30:15)

2. Iran Tensions, Trump’s ‘Madman Theory,’ and International Messaging

• Trump's Messaging:

  • Hosts discuss Trump's tough posture on Iran, including his viral post:

    “Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge day all wrapped in one in Iran. There’ll be nothing like it... Open the effing Strait, you crazy bastards, or you’ve been living in hell. Just watch. Praise be to Allah.”
    (Carol reading Trump's post, 18:08)

  • Mixed feelings, but both acknowledge the unpredictability (“madman theory”) keeps adversaries guessing.

    "He comes off as absolutely batshit crazy. And Iran does not know what to expect from him."
    (Carol, 18:23)

  • Debate whether such messaging is "helpful," with both seeing strategic value in unpredictability while wishing for more conventional holiday greetings (Patrick, 20:09).

• Strategic Takeaways:

  • U.S. military’s "no man left behind" standard is held up as a marker of American values, outweighing the loss of hardware (planes) during the rescue (Patrick, 13:22 & Carol, 15:01).
  • The hosts contrast U.S. willingness to take costly, difficult actions for its people with both foreign practices and some critical domestic narratives.

3. American Patriotism—250 Years and Artemis Moon Mission

• Artemis Mission Excitement:

  • Hosts celebrate the ongoing Artemis mission circling the moon as a sign of American renewal and ambition.

    “It’s awesome to be an American. I would have felt the exact same way if a Democrat were president... The fact that a Democrat is not president is neither here nor there to me.”
    (Carol, 27:44)

  • Carol notes her son’s fascination—with no desire to be an astronaut himself—reflecting a widespread national sense of pride and inspiration.

• Institutional Success:

  • The Artemis mission is hailed alongside military feats as examples of “institutions working,” which hosts say is a marked shift after years of disappointment (Patrick, 27:04).
  • Trump’s leadership of the space agenda is credited for accelerating the program.

• Notable Audio (Victor Glover, 30:15):

  • Astronaut Glover delivers a profound meditation on unity, the preciousness of Earth, and humanity’s shared journey—moving the hosts and adding a layer of gravitas and beauty to the conversation.

4. Student Loan ‘Escapees’ and American Responsibility

• NYT Story Critique:

  • Hosts lambaste a New York Times piece about “student loan escapees”—Americans who defaulted and moved abroad:

    “They took out loans for a product and then didn’t pay for them and we’re supposed to feel sorry for them.”
    (Carol, 34:01)

• Mocking ‘Burden’ Narratives:

  • The hosts mock the story of Amanda Lynn Tully—$65k in loans for a master's in historic preservation, defaulting after less than a year, “psychologically burdened” by $60/month payments:

    “Ms. Tully was on an income-based repayment plan... This amount, to many, the New York Times says, may seem manageable, but for her, it remained psychologically burdensome.” (Patrick, 35:10)

  • Patrick: “I’m psychologically burdened by the $60 per month that I could be using for like juice boxes or whatever the heck I need to buy.” (35:35)

• Policy & Cultural Commentary:

  • Discussion of the federalization of student loans and the disservice of encouraging “everyone” to attend college.

  • Endorsement for stricter, more practical parental guidance on college choices—especially among immigrants.

    “You can take the chance. You couldn’t. But it's going to come with some hard moments.”
    (Carol, 38:37)

  • The episode ends with strong opposition to loan forgiveness for those who voluntarily defaulted and a call for college accountability.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Rescue Mission:

  “What our military is capable of—astounding.” (Patrick, 03:38)

  “This is what America is. We've sort of forgotten that. And I look, no one is more surprised than me that it's Donald Trump bringing it all back to us and making us feel like we're in like Iron Eagle or Top Gun. But here we are.” (Carol, 12:05)

• On American Priorities:

  “This is like the people over things thing that you tell your children, like, in a fire or in a dangerous situation, don't care about your things, don't care about anything but people. You save the people. This on a larger scale is what we're all about.”
  (Carol, 15:01)

• On Partisan Reaction:

  “It seems fairly obvious...For Cain, it was ideologically inconvenient and politically inconvenient that this didn't turn out badly.” (Patrick, 07:19)

• On Patriotism in 2026:

  “Our 250th year feels so insanely pro-America and just patriotic...I'm extra patriotic right now.” (Carol, 12:05)

  “Mark Andreessen tweeted, I have never been so bullish on the United States of America. That's exactly how I feel.”
  (Carol, 29:53)

• On Student Loan Defaults:

  “These people were sold a bill of goods by the colleges. They would not have been sold this bill of goods had we not made all college loans federally backed, which would mean that then banks would have a reason to judge whether these loans were worth giving...” (Patrick, 36:48)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rescue Mission Overview & Reaction: 02:24–08:55
• Trey Yingst Rescue Report: 08:56–12:05
• Patriotism and "No Man Left Behind": 12:05–15:57
• Trump’s Messaging & Iran Tensions: 18:00–20:13
• Artemis II and American Renewal: 23:10–29:53
• Astronaut Victor Glover Excerpt: 30:15–31:28
• Student Loan Escapees Discussion: 33:40–40:14

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Tone & Language

Hosts are conversational, punchy, and patriotic, with plenty of sarcasm and humor. They skewer what they see as “woke” or inconsistent ideological postures and celebrate technical achievement and military heroism. Their frustration with cultural and policy drift comes through in colorful, relatable language (e.g., “batshit crazy,” “psychologically burdened by $60/month,” “keep winning America!”).

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Summary Takeaway

In this episode, Clay Travis and Buck Sexton's fill-in team delivers a spirited defense of recent U.S. military and space triumphs—injecting urgency, pride, and critiquing both domestic pessimism and “escape” from personal responsibility. The rescue in Iran and Artemis mission become symbols for American resolve and capacity, while the student loan debate underscores broader cultural rifts over entitlement and duty. The tone is energetic, humorous, proud, and pointed: “Keep winning, America. We’re rooting for us all the way.”

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Patrick Hamm]

Hey guys, we are back on. Normally the show with normal is fake

[Trey Yingst]

for when the news gets weird.

[Patrick Hamm]

I'm Patrick Hamm off a week of being very normie by checking out of the news.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love checking out of the news. I am Carol Markowitz. We held down the fort here at Normale while Mary Kathryn was, you know, touching grass, living her life, whatever. Bridget Fedisi filled in on Wednesday and she did a fantastic job.

[Patrick Hamm]

I mean gonna be hard to top her. Thanks a lot Bridget. Welcome back.

[Carol Markowitz]

Welcome back. Mary Kathryn. She also celebrated. Mary Catherine celebrated her birthday over the weekend on Easter Sunday and wrote a really beautiful post on X about it and you should definitely go check it out. Happy birthday. Birthday Mary Katherine.

[Patrick Hamm]

Thank you very much. I had a lovely day with my family.

[Carol Markowitz]

It was a wild weekend. It was really a lot going on. Your birthday, Easter Sunday and then of course, the rescue of the downed F15 weapon systems officer. The pilot was of course rescued right away on Friday. And then the weapon systems officer, or Wizzo as I'm told he is called on the Google, was missing for 24 hours plus and it was really touch and go on X whether or not he was recovered. And we were all obviously holding our breath and very afraid, but we woke up on Sunday morning to news from the White House saying he had been, you know, found and was alive and was on his way home.

[Patrick Hamm]

Ah, you're saying he was lost on Good Friday and found on Easter Sunday. It's crazy. Like, it's. What a story. I was again, I was sort of checked out and clued into the end of this story. So I missed the, the suspense in the middle. And still with, without that, it is astounding.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Patrick Hamm]

What our military is capable of. Astounding.

[Carol Markowitz]

We have these super fan haters on which I appreciate so much. I really do think it's the haters that keep us going. But we got some comments like, why haven't you and I commented on him while he was missing? And for me, I was holding my breath and praying and that's why I wasn't going to comment on something that I was hoping played out in a positive fashion and was, you know, praying real hard that it wasn't going to play out in a negative fashion. So what was I supposed to comment on? You were, you know, again, touching the ground.

[Patrick Hamm]

Also. This is such an interesting reaction from people and we're gonna go through the details of this rescue, but in the moment where one of our service members is lost in a, in a foreign and hostile country and we don't know where and possibly could be dead, I'm like you, Carol. I'm just praying that this person has returned safely. And we know that the stakes are high. There was an interesting moment from Tim Kaine, who is my Virginia senator, a Democrat who tweeted we are trying to rescue a downed American in Iran. Hegseth boasts about no quarter, no mercy, and axing stupid rules of engagement mean we have to hope that Iran follows the humanitarian laws that US Leaders now dismiss. Okay, right. So he's mad that the guy has lost, except he's mostly mad about politics, it sounds like. And then Guy Benson points up no update. Huh. Senator, is this a disappointing outcome for you?

[Carol Markowitz]

I and he's also assuming that Iran is going to be humanitarian towards our

[Patrick Hamm]

guy or that they've never followed rules.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, like I, I Iran pays for Hamas. Have you Seen what Hamas did to the people that they captured on October 7th. You think that they're going to get our downed officer and treat him nicely and they might not because of Pete Hegseth, like, being blustery? Come on.

[Patrick Hamm]

No, it's a ridiculous point of view. And one of the things I love about being conservative is that I can have uncomplicated and joyful feelings about the birth of babies, about America being great and about American military dominance and a pilot and other. The weapons services, weapons, excuse me, weapons systems officer being rescued in valiant style from hostile territory. I have uncomplicated, excited, joyful, glad feelings about that.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's really funny that you say that because I also noticed that the whole, you know, woke. Right. Whatever you want to call them, they are clearly having these complicated feelings where just recently, when they were firmly on the right and they were normal. They wouldn't have been even if they didn't support the mission in Iran. They. They would understand that getting the officer back would be amazing and like a moment of joy. And they're just so perplexed and confused about where they're supposed to be. I mean, Joe Kent shared a nonsense post from drop site which is like this Russian propaganda paid site quoting Iranian propaganda that claimed that the US Was trying to kill the lost pilot. And he was like, and I pray for his recovery. Well, which is it? Is the US Trying to kill the pilot or are you hoping for his recovery? Like, what is. What are you sharing here? And I think that confusion is really obvious in a lot of people. They don't know what they're supposed to feel anymore because they are rooting against the mission, they're rooting against the president, and they're rooting against the country.

[Patrick Hamm]

Yeah, yeah. It's hard. I don't want to mince words about it because it seems fairly obvious that that's what's happening. That for someone like Cain, who may have updated in the meantime, but did not update quickly and excitedly about this, for Cain, it was ideologically inconvenient and politically inconvenient that this didn't turn out badly. Right now there are some also who say it did turn out badly because you lost an aircraft and then you lost two other aircraft leaving. You had to spend all this. Yeah, we spend all of that to get one airman back. That's what we do.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? Yeah. It's just the last few days have been like being in a super patriotic movie. I mean, in fact, the whole Trump administration so far has been, for me, very patriotic. Movie coded. You just feel like rah rah America in so many different ways. And it's just, it's been amazing to watch. I think that people don't get that we would have rooted for the same outcome if Joe Biden was president. I remember being devastated about what happened in Afghanistan, the lost military members there. And had that gone successfully, I would have been happy and it wouldn't have been hard to be happy. It's just what we do. We root for our servicemen and women. We root for our country. It's not that complicated.

[Patrick Hamm]

I think we have a longish clip from Trey Yingst reporting from the Middle east about this operation. And it's going to give you about three minutes of explanation. But I feel like we need it and we want it. So take it away, Trey.

[Trey Yingst]

It was a daring rescue operation. Sources both in the United States and here in Israel have described it to Fox News as one for the history books. We can exclusively report it was on Saturday morning that the the CIA was able to confirm and locate the missing airmen. The CIA was concerned that this was a trick by the Iranians to try and lure in US Special forces and attack them. But once they were able to use advanced technology to confirm not only this was the identity of the airmen but also the location, that message was delivered to the Secretary of War and the Joint Chief's chairman and ultimately the President. I am told by a senior unit US Official, you look at the timeline here. It was late Thursday night into Friday when that F15E fighter jet was shot down over the skies of southwestern Iran. The pilot of that jet was recovered on Friday by U.S. special forces. But that weapons systems officer had to spend up to two days evading Iranian capture. They activated that emergency beacon. It was confirmed by the CIA who at the same time was running the deception campaign. And then ultimately it was the President, I am told, who made the decision. And within 12 hours there were US forces on the ground inside of Iran conducting the rescue mission. As it relates to the CIA deception campaign, I am told by a senior US Official the CIA leaked through multiple sources that they were trying to move a valuable package out of the country through a maritime exfil. This was meant to draw the Iranians away from the area where the US Crew member was was located. I'm told that deception campaign worked coupled with the fire from the air and those drones targeting anyone who approached this area. There was that major concern as the clock was ticking and they were searching for this missing US Crew member. Now the Wall Street Journal today is Reporting the complex mission quickly ran into problems, officials said, as the US Redirected aircraft in the region to help with the mission. Some planned targets, including missile launcher sites, which were left untouched. That allowed Iran to fire more weapons than usual. In recent days, officials said the first attempt to rescue the airmen had to be aborted. Two H6 helicopters took small arms fire from the ground, wounding the crews in both aircraft and requiring them to land safely in Kuwaiti airspace. Now, as this was taking place, the Israelis were watching closely and coordinating behind the scenes. Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said this overnight. I spoke earlier with the President Trump and personally congratulated him on his bold decision and a perfectly executed American mission to rescue the downed pilot from enemy territory. The president expressed his appreciation for Israel's help. I am deeply proud that our cooperation on and off the battlefield is unprecedented and that Israel could contribute to saving a brave American warrior. So again, Bill and Dana, this speaks to the coordination not only between the Americans and the Israelis, but also the US Military. I spoke with sources here and they said the coordinates credit belongs to the US Military. This was what they described as an excellent coordinated operation to use the willpower and the fighting force of US Special Forces coupled with the intelligence apparatus of the United States to go deep into enemy territory with more than 100 US special forces and rescue this F15 crew member over the weekend.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's just so amazing. I can't get over what a complicated operation it was and how flawlessly it was executed. Again, the idea that we lost, you know, planes or something, this is what we do to get our guy back. This is what America is. We've sort of forgotten that. And I look, no one is more surprised than me that it's Donald Trump bringing it all back to us and, and making us feel like we're in like Iron Eagle or Top Gun. But here we are. You know, this guy Paul and Laitner on x posted 2026 has given us some iconic images. And he posted a picture of Jack Hughes with the American flag and Artemis taking off. And then Jesse Arm, who's at the Manhattan Institute, he posted Missing two of my favorites. And it was a police officer jumping over the fence to stop the bombers in New York City and then also Maduro on the plane back to the US Those four images and it's only April. It hasn't been that long. It's just incredible year. Our 250th year feels so insanely pro America and just patriotic. My kids are like, you're always saying that you're very patriotic. But I. I'm extra patriotic right now.

[Patrick Hamm]

No, I mean, again, it is so fun to be excited about these moments, to be excited about this, to hear about a man who is perhaps, you know, near death hiking a 7,000 foot cliff line to hide himself and use the proper technology and all of his training to make sure that Americans can find him while the Iranians cannot find him. The CIA working in tandem with the military and doing what it's supposed to do, the military doing perfectly what it's supposed to do. And then there are people who say, like, oh, you think this is a success? You lost these two guys over hostile territory, and then they were extracted using all this money and you had to blow up two C130s on the way out because they stalled and you didn't want to give them over to the enemy. One, if you're spiritually American, you understand that. Of course, that's what we do. We do no man left behind. We, like, this is what we do. Two, I would just like to remind everyone that 70 plus aircraft were left at Bagram in Afghanistan. 70 plus aircraft, that doesn't even count all the other things. Okay, and some of them were disabled. But, like, what are these people doing running down an operation that rescues an American hero without casualties? Except for the C130, by the way. This is another marker of our greatness and prosperity that we have an air force that has many, many thousands of planes. We're not like Britain with 79. I don't know what the actual number it is, but you know what I'm saying, right?

[Carol Markowitz]

Somebody posted like, yeah, it's because this is not our entire air force. Like, it's yours. Yes, but this is like the people over things thing that you tell your children, like, in a fire or in a dangerous situation, don't care about your things, don't care about anything but people. You save the people. This on a larger scale is what we're all about. And it's important. It's an important lesson. You don't want to be the kind of people who won't save your fellow countrymen because you're afraid to lose a plane. Who cares about that plane? Lose all the planes, get the person back.

[Patrick Hamm]

By the way, when you are acting as a normie who's checked out of the news cycle and you check back in for the glorious rescue of this person, and then someone tells you, and it eventually dawns on you that people are having a negative reaction to this, your normie brain goes, I'm sorry, what? Right. How, how, how?

[Carol Markowitz]

So Thursday and Friday were Passover, the first two nights of Passover. So Orthodox Jews were offline. I. I'm not Orthodox. I was very much online. And then Saturday, obviously, is another day that Orthodox Jews are offline. So it was three days of Orthodox Jews being offline. Ron Coleman comes back on on Saturday and says, what did I miss? Red Steez sums it up for him. He's like. Blue sky thinks Trump is at Walter Reed, which is another insane. He is hospitalized for sure. He has not golfing today. Therefore he is in the hospital dying right now. It's like we're at war. We're missing one of our officers. Like, he is working on it. You don't have to love Donald Trump. You don't have to care about him. Don't be crazy. Anyway, Red Steez, Blue sky thinks Trump is at Walter Reed. No one knows if the downed pilot was rescued or not. Not the pilot, but the weapons officer or not. Thanks to slop gagement accounts. And the Artemis shitter is out of order again. Which

[Patrick Hamm]

Artemis in the next segment. No, it's. I. I just am blown away by several operations. I mean, Midnight Hammer, the first bombing run in Iran, the Venezuela extraction of Maduro, and this all three done without loss of personnel, which is shocking.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hamm]

And that, that doesn't, that doesn't dismiss that there have been personnel that have been lost in other parts of the Iranian engagement. But to do those three things so close to absolutely flawlessly.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hamm]

Again, having been betrayed by so many institutions over the past 15 years or so, it is inspiring to see them work this way.

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly. And look, this is airing on Tuesday, which Donald Trump has declared power plant and bridge day in Iran.

[Patrick Hamm]

Speaking of Donald Trump's special qualities, I would have appreciated a different kind of Easter post. Just one out there. Thanks, sir.

[Carol Markowitz]

So he posted. Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge day all wrapped in one in Iran. There'll be nothing like it. Open the effing straight, you crazy bastards, or you've been living in hell. Just watch. Praise be to Allah. President Donald J. Trump. A lot of people didn't like it. Even a lot of my conservative friends didn't like it. I like it. I don't care. I like it. He comes off as absolutely batshit crazy. And Iran does not know what to expect from him. Like, who knows what this guy's gonna do. He could have power plant day and bridge day beyond Monday. They don't know what's coming.

[Patrick Hamm]

Is Praise be to Allah, the new thank you for your attention to this matter.

[Carol Markowitz]

Maybe.

[Patrick Hamm]

No. The cultivation of the madman theory overseas certainly is helpful. And the ongoing threat to the Strait of Hormuz and to the world economy is, of course, perilous. It is why, you know, I think Donald Trump is convinced to continue fighting to get some kind of agreement from whoever is the last man standing after we continue to lop off people from the top of the regime. I did hear some reports about this rescue, that locals were helpful by protecting the area that this American had hidden himself, which is, again, inspiring because this is one of those situations where the country that we're bombing, many of the people inside the country we're bombing are very happy. In fact, happier that we're doing it than Americans are in some cases. But I do think we're still in the what comes next phase. And he's trying to communicate to whoever's left in charge.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Patrick Hamm]

We will continue crazy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Don't mess with us. Like is. Is the communication. And I'm, I'm mostly here for it, really. I. Look, I don't always love the Trump crazy tweets. In fact, I fairly often do not, especially on holidays and times the holiday ones get me.

[Patrick Hamm]

I'm like, can we just, yeah, like do two separate ones, the crazy one

[Carol Markowitz]

and the normal Easter one, just a regular one. But I like this and I think we're. It sends a you don't know what to expect from me message about the Strait of Hormuz. I read this interesting thing that I just wanted to share with our listeners. Antonio Garcia Martinez was a really great follow on X. He tweeted a research report about the Strait of Hormuz. Here's what he writes. Hilarious. On the ground, reporting from the Strait of Hormuz, showing way more ships transiting than commonly believed because everyone is believing the AIs transponder data. The fishing boats 50 miles off the Oregon coast turn off their AIs to avoid disclosing their best spots. I had to sail through them at night and discovered the hard way a lot of people manage lots of money and have never spent a day at sea. I have never spent a day at sea. So I do not know what the AIs transponder data, whether it's real or how it works or whatever, but apparently there are more ships going through than we are led to believe.

[Patrick Hamm]

So, yeah, I have heard that from several people and I have spent several days on a bass boat in my life. So I think I love it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Love it. My favorite song right now is Bass Boat by Zach Morant. Very, very good. All right, we're going to take a short break and be right back with more raw American greatness. America. America all the way. America all the time. Be right back.

[Podcast Announcer]

Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound Tirzepatide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is Approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15mg injection. Zepbound contains Tirzepatide and should not be used with other terzone Zepatide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia Syndrome Type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious, serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor, call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepboundlily.com

[Carol Markowitz]

we are back on normally where in a few minutes when we're recording this, the Artemis is going to round the moon. Is that, am I saying that correctly?

[Patrick Hamm]

Marika I think that's correct.

[Carol Markowitz]

Okay. It's been incredible. I'm not a space person. I'm really. I have never been like super fascinated by space, but I am all in on all of these people. The four of them are just amazing and magical and hilarious and I can't get enough.

[Patrick Hamm]

They are great. I am a Victor Glover fangirl and I only regret that I have not spent many more years being a Victor Glover fangirl because apparently I could have earlier and I just missed it. I again was a Little bit checked out. And my husband luckily flagged this for the kids and me and said, like, come, come watch the launch. Now, I will say I am of the exact age as you are as well, probably, although you had just come to America maybe around this time. I'm of the exact age to be very traumatized by Challenger. And so watching a rocket launch does not feel as magical to me, I think, as too many other people.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. Hold my breath. For sure. I mean, yeah, it feels right.

[Patrick Hamm]

Very nervous about it, but I came up to watch with my kids and I wanted to experience it. And then I think perhaps because of Challenger, I'm not that interested in space. It scares me. I have no desire to go. I'm not a person who wants to be on Blue Origin at all. No. Thank you, Jeff Bezos. If you were looking into me, I'm a no, I don't want to do it. I have no desire. But I like that other people do. I'm excited that they do that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Me, too.

[Patrick Hamm]

However, then like you said, Carol, you start digging into this and just the absolute beautiful enormity of it and the character of these people who are on this craft and the dangerous thing they're doing and their beautiful families. And also this came. I looked back at the. The Jared Isaacman timeline, and I don't remember if you and I talked about this on normally, but he's. His nomination to NASA administration administrator was a little bit hinky for this reason. So he was nominated really early. When, like right after Trump took office, like in December of 2020 or right after he was elected, before he was even in office. He was on the list early, and then he got knocked off the list later in April or May of 2025 because of the fight that Elon and Trump got in because Isaacman was close to Elon and he had donated to some Democrats in the past. And Trump was like, nah, I'm not with him. So he's out. Duffy ends up stepping in as acting NASA administrator and maybe wanting to fold it into the Department of Transportation. And a bunch of space guys were like, no, no, no, let's not do that. Let's get Isaacman back in. So Isaac, when comes back to talk to Trump at the end of 2025, and he's renominated in December of 2025, at which point Trump says the day he's voted on and confirmed, we're going to the moon by 2028. And then how many months later, four months later, they're on their way to the distance of the moon with a plan to be back on the moon in 2030. And I just think that's, that's amazing.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's incredible. I, you know, my youngest son is super into this. He's the sporty one I talk about. He's just not the one I thought would be like, obsessed with this. But he cannot get enough. He wants to see every video, he wants to see every picture, he wants to hear every story about that, astronauts. And I'm like, do you want to be an astronaut? He's like, not at all. But this is really cool. He's 10, so, you know, if he was like, I want to be an astronaut, that would be totally normal. But he's like, no thanks. I just want to watch from here.

[Patrick Hamm]

Well, and I just think, like, Isaacman specifically has been involved in commercial space flight. He's been to space a couple of times. He came into NASA with a desire to restructure and make things work efficiently and in concert with private companies. And the fact that we're probably going to have people on the moon before Newsom creates a mile of high speed rail, like, I just. Yeah. Again, having been betrayed by many institutions and thinking the government is generally kind of crappy in so, so many ways, it's nice to see these things happen.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, success is really amazing to see. And again, would you and I have been rooting for this any less if Joe Biden was president? No. We would be just as excited that this, this Artemis 2 crew are gonna be the first people ever to see the dark side of the moon. Like, that's crazy. That's amazing. That's us doing it. We're so awesome. Like, how could you not love this country? How could you not love our ambitions and the way that we wanna do everything? It's just, it's awesome to be an American. I would have felt the exact same way if a Democrat were president. The fact that a Democrat is not president is neither here nor there to me. It's just amazing to see this happen. Well, and Donald Trump deserves the credit. He does.

[Patrick Hamm]

Yeah, he does. And by the way, part of the NATO discussion, as Trump got mad about NATO allies not letting us use bases and airspace, I think warranted some of the conversation came from Europeans saying basically, like, look, look at the audacity of these people. Like, we run it down, we make fun of it, we hold it in contempt while they protect us. But look at what they're doing.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? Those are our Europeans.

[Patrick Hamm]

I know, exactly. And they popped to the top of the algorithm for Me, I'm sure. But it's a real thing that we own the seas for a reason. We are able to do things and hold ourselves to standards or try impossible things on purpose as a. As a national spirit with celebrating that

[Carol Markowitz]

that's what we should be doing. It's just again, such a patriotic year, turning 250. This country's amazing. We're doing amazing things. I'm just very, very high on the country right now. And again, any American listening to this should feel the same way. I don't anybody should be feeling differently if they are politically not aligned. I. It just. It's amazing. Mark Andreessen tweeted, I have never been so bullish on the United States of America. That's exactly how I feel.

[Patrick Hamm]

Can we real quick to close this out? Just play a minute or two of Victor Glover. The reason I'm a fan girl now. He said several profound things, but he was asked as they were flying past Earth from above over Easter if he had any thoughts about, you know, the world and life and existence. And without preparation, he had this to say.

[Victor Glover]

I'm glad you brought that up, though. I think these observances are important. And as we are so far from Earth and looking at, you know, the beauty of creation, I think the. For me, one of the really important personal perspectives that I have up here is I can really see Earth as one thing. And, you know, when I read the Bible and I look at all of the amazing things that were done for us who were created, it's. You have this amazing place, this spaceship. You guys are talking to us because we're in a spaceship really far from Earth, but you're on a spaceship called Earth that was created to give us a place to live in the universe, in the cosmos. Maybe the distance we are from you makes you think what we're doing is special, but we're the same distance from you. And I'm trying to tell you, just trust me, you are special in all of this emptiness. This is a whole bunch of nothing, this thing we call the universe. You have this oasis, this beautiful place that we get to exist together. I think as we go into Easter Sunday, thinking about, you know, all the cultures all around the world, whether you celebrate it or not, whether you believe in God or not, this is an opportunity for. For us to remember where we are, who we are, and that we are the same thing, and that we gotta get through this together.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's just gorgeous. It's so well done. And he sounds so deep and wise. I love it.

[Patrick Hamm]

Well, he's got quite a resume and he has a lovely wife and four daughters. And it's just so lovely to see people animated by good things doing seemingly impossible tasks. And thank you for using all your training to inspire me. Both American military service people and astronauts love it. He, by the way, is also a veteran. He's a U.S. navy captain.

[Carol Markowitz]

Amazing. Keep winning America. We're going to be rooting for us all the way. We'll be right back with more on

[Podcast Announcer]

Normally Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound Tirzepatide may be able to help Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is Approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15mg injection. Zepbound contains Tirzepatide and should not be used with other Tirzepat appetite containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills, taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor, call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepboundlily.com

[Patrick Hamm]

all right, we are back on normally with I mean really the exact opposite side of the coin from the people who who are doing impossible things. The New York Times reported this weekend on some a segment of people who student debt burdened them so they moved abroad and stopped paying.

[Carol Markowitz]

They took out loans for a product and then didn't pay for them and we're supposed to feel sorry for them.

[Patrick Hamm]

I like the passive force voice. They were burdened by the loans that they took out. It opens with this poor woman who I'm going to be mean about. Amanda Lynn Tully. She graduated in 2017 with a master's degree in historic preservation from the University of Oregon. $65,000 in federal student loans. So that's us guaranteeing it. And no job offers in the conservation field. No kidding. Is. Are there not a ton of jobs in historic conservation? Anyway, less than a year after graduating, Ms. Tully made a drastic decision. Less than a year? She moved to Prague where she completed an internship and defaulted on her loan. She hasn't made a payment in over seven years. Well, it must have been very burdensome financially. You would, Carol.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hamm]

No, let me tell you how much she was paying. Per year or per month? 60 bucks.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, that sounds like a weight she could not bear.

[Patrick Hamm]

Ms. Tully was on an income based repayment plan which allows many borrowers to have their remaining debt forgiven. After 20 years of making qualifying payments, she was paying $60 per month when she defaulted. This amount, to many, the New York Times says, may seem manageable, but for her, it remained psychologically burdensome.

[Carol Markowitz]

Sorry she was so psychologically burdened. Of course we're all gonna have to pay back her loan for her.

[Patrick Hamm]

So now I'm psychologically burdened by the $60 per month that I could be using for like juice boxes or whatever the heck I need to buy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, that's the thing. It's like the New York Times will never say in these pieces, the colleges that promised them something they couldn't deliver should be the ones paying for this. It's always like, how is this system? And that the rest of us should just forgive them, forgive these loans. Even though people, you know, they live at home, they don't go to schools that have fancy brand names, they don't go into degrees that sound ridiculous and are ridiculous. They. They work during college. All of that. People do. And they end up graduating with no debt, only to pay off this lady's debt because she defaulted on it.

[Patrick Hamm]

Yeah. You know, I made the decisions that allowed me to be debt free.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Patrick Hamm]

I didn't go to a super expensive school. I didn't take out a bunch of loans. Those were decisions I made when I had other things on the table. And now I end up covering for people who didn't make those decisions because they decided, well, someone else will pay it for me.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Patrick Hamm]

And by the way, there's already been a break for four years from payments because of COVID which was illegal to begin with and shouldn't have happened.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Patrick Hamm]

And at some point, I believe it is our friend Bridget Fedisy, and I will censor myself a bit, who's like, you're being a whiny bee. Like it's. You just need to suck it up and pay your 60 bucks. Now, some of these people were sold a bill of goods, as you say, by the colleges. They would not have been sold this bill of goods had we not made all college loans federally backed, which would mean that then banks would have a reason to judge whether these loans were worth giving to people who might not get jobs and then they might not get as much money.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right, right. We've just become this culture where everybody has to go to college and it costs a lot of money and it's not worth it for a lot of people. Like when my kids even half engage with the I don't know if I want to go to college, I'm like, I'm listening, like, what are we thinking? You know? And every kid is going to have a different path. I think that we need to get off of this everybody has to go to college thing. College is very rarely about education anymore. It has almost nothing to do with what field you're going to work in. It never translates into making a lot of money unless you go to one of the top, top schools. And you could only go there if you really have the money to pay for it. Because if you don't have the money to pay for it, you're going to set yourself up to have this massive debt and count on the rest of the country to pay it for you. Is just not for.

[Patrick Hamm]

And I see reels occasionally, or tiktoks where people sort of gripe about, for instance, immigrant parents who are hard on their kids and say if you go to college, you can go in these three degree areas. That's like. But that's the right decision. You're making a calculation that my kid is going to go in a law degree or an engineering degree or medical because those will pay back what I am investing. That's how you should think about it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, I'm writing something about, about colleges right now. I mean, you know, writing is hard, guys. Writing is really hard. Especially when it's like for your substack, which I feel like, you know, no deadlines means I can write this forever. But about what colleges should be about. And the fact that, yeah, my parents were like, these three professions are the ones that we would like for you to go into. And because I chose something else. I did do myself a lot of damage. I did get into debt. I had a lot of problems setting up my life because I went into a career that my parents didn't understand. So you could take the chance. You couldn't. But it's going to come with some hard moments.

[Patrick Hamm]

Or like by the way, at the end of this article is a guide to better managing your money from the New York Times. Thanks guys. The ship has sailed for many of these folks, but the main thing is like, you want to spend less than you make and you want to not burden yourself with giant loans that you then skip out on and go that complicated. This is not what I don't understand. This isn't an indictment of America. This is an indictment of the people who haven't paid the loans.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? Absolutely. At no point I'm like, America should do something about this. Like the schools should do something about it. New York Times should pressure the schools to do something about it. They have these giant endowments. They take federal funds. They should not let their students flounder like this. I agree. Well, thanks for joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us at Normally the Thanks for listening and when things get weird, you act normally.

[Podcast Announcer]

Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound Tirzepatide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is Approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15mg injection. Zepbound contains Tirzepatide and should not be used with other Tirzepatide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take of allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills. Taking zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor, call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound Lilly.com.