Normally Podcast: RFK Jr. Scandal, Urban Family Decline & America’s Education Crisis

Summary

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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show: Normally Podcast

Episode: RFK Jr. Scandal, Urban Family Decline & America’s Education Crisis

Date: November 20, 2025
Hosts: Mary Katherine Ham & Carol Markowitz

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Mary Katherine Ham and Carol Markowitz dive into the political landscape post-midterms, analyze the RFK Jr. “sex scandal,” and discuss the declining presence of families with children in major cities alongside the dire state of America’s education system. With their signature blend of humor and pointed commentary, they break down why Republicans are struggling, the real story behind recent media scandals, and what’s at stake in American classrooms.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Political Landscape After the Midterms

Timestamps: 02:10–10:38

• Democratic Resurgence:
  Despite predictions of Democratic doom post-presidential loss, the party is experiencing a resurgence, leading the generic ballot by 14 points.
  • Quote:
    “Remember when everybody was like, the Democratic Party is over forever and will never rise again. And you and me were like, I think they'll rise again. Yeah, yeah, they're rising.”
    — Carol (02:10)
• Republican Disarray:
  The GOP faces internal issues, with fringe voices dominating and toxic culture-war discourse on topics like Hitler, Israel, and misinformation overshadowing substantive policy.
  • Quote:
    “The right is mired in...abject stupidity. The loudest voices on our side are litigating World War II and finding Hitler to be the good guy... They're discussing whether the first lady of France has a penis. And these are the people getting millions and millions of views.”
    — Carol (03:31)
• Messaging Misdirection:
  Republicans’ overemphasis on culture war issues—while neglecting kitchen-table topics like the economy—risks alienating swing voters.
  • Quote:
    “If it becomes the only thing you talk about, people will think you're not paying attention to other things... like the groceries that you're trying to buy.”
    — Mary Katherine (07:09)
• Latino & Young Male Voter Shift:
  While GOP had momentum with Latino and young male voters, that progress is fragile if their lives don’t measurably improve.
  • Quote:
    “Turning Latino voters and young voters, particularly male... into a swing vote is an accomplishment. But... they can swing back.”
    — Mary Katherine (05:24)
• Failures in Shutdown Messaging:
  Democrats outmaneuvered Republicans in government shutdown communications, highlighting the GOP’s branding challenges.
  • Quote:
    “Democrats wiped the floor with Trump on shutdown messaging, which is not as it should be.”
    — Mary Katherine (08:53)
• Takeaway:
  Republicans need to expand their message beyond culture wars and keep persuading voters, as political victories are never permanent.

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2. The RFK Jr. “Sex Scandal” (Or Non-Scandal)

Timestamps: 11:19–19:21

• No-Sex Affair Explored:
  Olivia Nuzzi’s new book claims an affair with RFK Jr., but the hosts find it perplexing as it lacked physical intimacy—no sex or even a kiss.
  • Quote:
    “Olivia Nuzzi wrote a book about having an affair with RFK Jr. Where no sex is had. And I find that perplexing personally.”
    — Carol (11:19)
• Media Personalities Involved:
  The scandal spans figures like Ryan Lizza and Keith Olbermann, veering into stories of career implosions and tabloid-esque confessions.
  • On Ryan Lizza's Substack Reaction:
    “I think that might be his final revenge is that he is a better writer than [Nuzzi].”
    — Mary Katherine (13:45)
• Public Reaction and Real-World Relevance:
  The hosts observe that “normies” (i.e., the general public) neither know nor care about such scandals, highlighting the insularity of media drama.
  • Quote:
    “Normies enjoyed the gossip and then they went on about their lives. They will not remember who these people are... I wish them all the best.”
    — Carol (17:01)
• Impact on Women in Media:
  These scandals erode trust and generate suspicion about how female journalists gain access, feeding negative stereotypes.
  • Quote:
    “Have every woman looked at in this way and think, well, what? How did she get that interview?...I don't appreciate it, Olivia. I don't appreciate it.”
    — Mary Katherine (19:10)
• Reflection:
  The saga feels outdated—like a “last gasp media scandal”—and emblematic of a media ecosystem obsessed with itself and disconnected from wider societal issues.

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3. Urban Family Decline and the Education Crisis

Timestamps: 19:21–28:52

• Urban Exodus of Families:
  Major cities see dramatic drops (up to 38%) in families with children under five, attributed to pandemic-era school closures, high costs, and public safety concerns.
  • Quote:
    “All of the places with this population drop were the strictest on schools reopening... Parents got the message, public schools cannot be relied on in these cities, and they left.”
    — Carol (20:53)
• Why Stay in the City?:
  The pandemic erased the perks of city living—activities, dining, culture—while keeping costs and increasing urban disarray.
  • Quote:
    “You took away the perks, but you left the cost of living and then you added some public safety disarray...And then you tell people...This is just the cost of doing business. Yo. What?”
    — Mary Katherine (21:40)
• School System Failures:
  Cities like DC effectively force parents into private schools, adding to urban families’ unsustainable financial burdens.
  • Quote:
    “People I know in D.C.: it’s basically understood that none of them are sending their kids to public schools there. Like, that's just not even a possibility.”
    — Mary Katherine (22:33)
• Education Crisis Deepens:
  A UCSD report fuels worries of “idiocracy” as college students increasingly lack math competency—exacerbated by pandemic remote learning, disappearing standards, and abandoning standardized tests.
  • Quote:
    “America has been using its young people as lab rats in a sweeping, if not exactly thought out, education experiment. Schools...lowering standards and removing penalties for failure. The results are coming into focus.”
    — Mary Katherine (23:18)
• Blame for Declining Competency:
  The move away from accountability, enforced standards, and standardized tests—decisions labeled as “compassionate” during the pandemic—now hide student failure and erode critical thinking.
  • Quote:
    “It’s just hiding failure. And eventually you get to the point where, yeah, college students cannot do middle school math or elementary school math.”
    — Mary Katherine (26:51)
• Societal Impact of Lowered Expectations:
  Hosts warn that the “skill of learning itself” and the ability to think critically are badly eroded, with AI and calculators no substitute for basic thinking skills.

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Notable Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On the State of Political Discourse:
  “If I wasn't super into politics and...suddenly I'm hearing Hitler is good and, you know, elevating Nick Fuentes, I would be, like, running in the other direction...”
  — Carol (04:11)
• On Relentless Politicking:
  “You got to keep convincing people. That's what politics is. It’s, you got to keep the politicking going.”
  — Mary Katherine & Carol (10:31–10:34)
• On Education Standards:
  “Keeping standards is more beneficial to [kids]. Keeping their schedules is more beneficial to them... five years later, this is just hiding failure.”
  — Mary Katherine (26:00)
• On Living and Parenting in Cities:
  “I think American cities, liberal American cities, during the 2020-2023...you guys are committing suicide.”
  — Mary Katherine (20:53)
• On the Impact of Media Sex Scandals:
  “When something like this happens, it makes everyone suspect... I don't appreciate it, Olivia. I don't appreciate it.”
  — Mary Katherine (19:10)

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Segment Timestamps

• Political Landscape & Messaging: 02:10–10:38
• RFK Jr. Scandal: 11:19–19:21
• Urban Decline & Education Crisis: 19:21–28:52

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Final Thoughts

Mary Katherine and Carol insist:

• The GOP’s communication strategy is off track and must reconnect with practical voter concerns.
• Media scandals reflect an insular and self-observed press, disconnected from average Americans.
• Urban mismanagement and an education system in decline prompt families to flee cities and leave kids academically adrift.
• Authenticity, resilience, and adherence to standards—in politics, media, and education—matter more than ever.

“Listen to us going forward is really the message here from all three segments, I think.”
— Carol (28:11)

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Subscribe to Normally for more sharp, irreverent takes on news and culture every Tuesday and Thursday.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Hey guys. We are back on normally the show normalist takes for when the news gets weird. I'm Mary Katherine Ham.

[C]

And I'm Carol Markowitz. Mary Kathryn. My youngest son, the football playing one, has a concert at school today because he has started playing the trombone and the keys. And you know the joke about this in our house is my other two are like straight A students and he's a little fast and loose with the grades, but he's the one who's going to get into any college he wants because a football playing trombone player is, is just a popular thing.

[A]

I love a trombone player. That's fantastic.

[C]

Trombone is like the same size as him.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I could see that. We also had a performance in our house today and I, I skated into school like two minutes before my daughter got on stage, as is my way.

[C]

I love it.

[A]

Yeah, it was, it was lovely. Although I always. Because they go to this little school where they sing these little adorable songs and I am really good at controlling my emotions in public. Unless little children sing about Jesus to me. And then, and then it is absolutely embarrassing. I have to stand at the back because I will be.

[C]

Oh my God.

[A]

Sobbing.

[C]

I want to see this.

[A]

And then my kids think it's so funny. They're like, every time she comes, she just cries in the back. It's so cute. I can't handle it. Okay. I love it.

[C]

I love it. I want to hear little kids sing about Jesus to you and watch you cry.

[A]

It's like really? It's like immediate, immediate. Alrighty.

[C]

Okay. All right. So remember when everybody was like, the Democratic Party is over forever and will never rise again. And you and me were like, I think they'll rise again. Yeah, yeah, they're rising. They are rising again. It turns out that one of the two parties did not actually just drop dead after losing a political presidential election. They had things go their way in the off year election as we've talked about on the show. And now some midterm numbers are out, and they are looking absolutely bleak. And. Yeah, I don't know who's.

[A]

Who.

[C]

Who could have predicted.

[A]

Who could have predicted this? Yeah, the generic ballot numbers, which is what pollsters asked to get a handle on, like, sort of, you know, if there were a Republican or a Democrat not specifying anyone whom you have personal feelings about, which way would you go? And we're looking at, like, a 14 point spread in favor of Democrats right now, which is. It's bad. Republicans historically do not run at the same party ID or generic ballot numbers as Democrats generally. They. They often have an advantage on that. But had we had come to parody and even gone beyond Democrats in many polls, and so this one doesn't. It doesn't bode well, I'll tell you that.

[C]

It doesn't. Right. You know, it's. The problem is that the right is mired in. I don't use the R word, so I'm just gonna say abject stupidity. The loudest voices on our side are litigating World War II and finding Hitler to be the good guy. They're obsessed with Israel and turning our closest ally, and yes, they are our closest ally into our greatest enemy. Not just like we should stop funding them, but like, actually they're evil and want to bring down the country. They're discussing whether the first lady of France has a penis. And these are the people getting millions and millions and millions of views.

[A]

Leading thinkers.

[C]

Leading thinkers. Yeah. On the right. And so I just can't help but blame the conversations that the right is having, because this is what people see. And if I were to see, if I wasn't super into politics and I was to kind of pay a little bit of attention, and suddenly I'm hearing Hitler is good and, you know, elevating the Nick Fuentes, et cetera, I would be, like, running in the other direction from these people, which is what I feel like the normies will do if. If the conservative world doesn't get a handle on this and start talking about actual issues that actually matter to real people and make that happen, you know, through the election and beyond.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, you have to keep convincing people. And I think this is. This is a good thing. Republicans are still ahead of where they were, because turning Latino voters and young voters, particularly male, young voters, not young female voters, but turning those demographics into a swing vote is an accomplishment. Right. Like, those are voters that in the past, the left was like, these belong to us. Okay, so you did some work. You turned them into swing voters. They can Swing the other way.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

And that's also, by the way, good for those demographics because people have to compete for them. This is a thing that makes their relationship with politicians more healthy. Well, unless, I guess, you don't want politicians talking to you or trying to figure out what you're into. Just which is what happens when you're a swing voter. But. But yeah, they can swing back. And to your point, Carol, if you're not delivering on promises to them, if their lives don't look measurably better, then you're gonna run into trouble reconvincing them that the time they pulled the lever for you was did. Did what they thought it would do.

[C]

You know, yesterday, the House unanimously, basically, I think one person said no, but past, you know, releasing the Epstein files, as we've said many times on here, release the Epstein files, whatever. But it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant to people's lives. It does not matter. I, I can make a prediction that there's not going to be anything interesting in those Epstein files that we don't already know. If there were, the Democrats would have released it. Be serious here. But all of this. And again, if you're talking about Epstein and whether or not he was a pedophile or he just liked the girls a little bit younger, or if you're talking about all the topics that I covered in the first few minutes of this, you know, first ladies of France and their penises, I. I think you're going to find the American people very turned off.

[A]

Well, and I think too, I'm a bit with the conventional wisdom crowd on the idea of the she's for them. They them, I'm for you ad. That ad was very successful, and I think some Republicans probably overread how successful that ad was.

[C]

Right.

[A]

One of the reasons it was successful is a. Because that stuff is crazy and gone too far for normal voters. But also because it. I think it's a signifier of people being out of touch when they care about this thing more than the groceries that you're trying to buy. So that cuts both ways, though. If you're a Republican and that's all you talk about, and I think it's a righteous fight. It is a righteous fight to keep boys out of women's dressing rooms in the Northern Virginia schools. You should be mad about it, you should talk about it. But if it becomes the only thing you talk about, people will think you're not paying attention to other things. In addition, like, I think that the economy, buoyed partly by The AI industry and energy unleashing that Trump has had a large part in. He has stymied himself to some extent with tariffs. And you can see that with the admission that, like, we're going to remove some of these tariffs and it'll bring prices down. Now, I think, look, he loves tariffs. He was very clear about it.

[C]

Yeah, people voted on that.

[A]

He likes to make the deals. However, if you are sort of like footsing around with prices and bringing them up in certain areas of people's lives for things they really like, like coffee and bananas, they will react badly to that.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And they'll notice.

[C]

Yeah. So, yeah, it also, I mean, look, Democrats are also talking about Epstein nonstop. It just Republicans have been able. Unable to capitalize on their distraction. They've been capitalizing quite well on our distraction. And I think that they've also just the Republican being president, like you said, the fact that he does have some control over prices in some capacity, I think that they're able to pin certain things on Republicans in a way that Republicans just haven't been able to do in reverse.

[A]

I would also note for Republicans, like, be careful with whatever plan you're coming up with. I know this is like, you know, the chances of that happening are low, but the shutdown messaging. Some more recent polling after all the fallout and after the government has opened back up shows that Democrats wiped the floor with Trump on shutdown messaging, which is not as it should be. I feel very like, right, where's Brian Stelter crying about a post truth society now when, when literally, where is Brian? Literally, these people vote 15 times to keep the government shut. But the message that people got was that it was Republicans. Now, I do think that's partly because Republicans are branded as that party shut down party.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

But it wasn't them this time.

[A]

It wasn't. The fact is you have to factor that into the way that you are doing messaging and the way that you are making decisions. And if people are primed to think of you as the guy who does that, you need to be a lot louder or a lot clearer or Donald Trump needs to use the bully pulpit in a lot clearer way. Gosh, that guy talks all the time. But like, do it in primetime. Do it in primetime on the networks.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Make them carry you. But I think that is a real warning sign for whatever tactic they take on in the future.

[C]

Yeah. Republicans have some time to turn this around. It's just that we are in such disarray right now that it's almost funny to think back to, you know, not that long ago, Donald Trump only got elected a year ago and the message around the country was, that's it, it's over for Democrats. Republicans are going to win everything forever. If you listen to normally, you know, two people who were saying, maybe not, maybe not.

[A]

You got to keep convincing people.

[C]

That's what politics is. It's, you got to keep the politicking going.

[A]

All righty. We'll be back on normally in a few minutes with a sex scandal.

[C]

Let's sex scandal this thing.

[A]

Good old fashioned fun.

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[C]

We are back on normally where. Look, is this a sex scandal? It's so hard to say because. Let's just put it out there. Olivia Newsy wrote a book about having an affair with RFK Jr. Where no sex is had. And I find that perplexing personally. The book is called American Canto and it is a tale of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. On the trail meeting Olivia Nuzzi and the love that developed between them, the insane texts that they sent each other. But again, no sex. And as far as I understand, not even, not even like a kiss, like nothing.

[A]

Yeah, we should set the stage that Olivia Nuzzi said the stage. Don't know, is like a, was like a very up and coming young journalist. Got these fascinating profiles, got access to people, I'm gonna say in intimate ways. And by that I mean like she would get these one on one profiles where she spent a lot of time with folks and, and would turn out interesting work about them, like high level political people. Then she blew up her career to some extent by having this sexting relationship and probably seems like infatuation with RFK Jr. While she was covering him. She was also at the time engaged to Ryan Lizza, who is another political figure. Right. Wrote for Politico for a long time, has written for Esquire, all sorts of outlets. And so this became public. She then went after him in court saying he's like blackmailing me and all sorts of things. Ryan stuck up for himself and was like, no, no, no, none of that is happening right she writes this book. At which point we find out, by the way, via some of these excerpts, did she just have really good editors before? Because I remember her writing being better than this. And then Ryan Lizza, oh yeah, upon the release of this book, is apparently mad that she said like, I'm not going to talk about this anymore if you won't talk about this anymore.

[C]

And then wrote a book and then.

[A]

Wrote a whole book. And Ryan Lizza's like, okay, I will write about the denouement, the unraveling of this relationship. And it's a, it's a substack post essentially entitled How I Found Out.

[C]

Yeah, the How I found Out.

[A]

Man.

[C]

Just texting you as I'm reading it. Then I'm reading how he found out. And he's actually a beautiful writer. You don't have.

[A]

I think that might be his final revenge is that he is a better writer than Piece was very well done.

[C]

And he finds a note about a water tower and how she would drink all the water in the water tower above his house or and then he's like, I don't have a water tower.

[A]

That's not about me.

[C]

Yeah. And then we get to the end and we find out that because the.

[A]

Whole time you're thinking it's RFK Jr. And by the way, spoiler alert, because y' all don't need to read. Yeah, y' all don't need to read six pieces about this sex scandal. We're just going to tell you about it.

[C]

We're going to tell you about it. We're going to, we're going to give you the away, the ending. You get to the bottom and it's from 2020 and she slept with then candidate Mark Sanford. Now, if you don't remember who Mark Sanford is, he was governor of South Carolina and he went missing for a few days. He came back and said he was hiking the Appalachian Trail, but in fact he was having like a full blown affair with some woman in South America while totally married and in the governor's mansion.

[A]

Correct. Yes.

[C]

He went away for a few years, came back as senator, I believe.

[A]

No, no. House member. He was a house member.

[C]

House member and then ran for president. And she, Olivia Newsie profiled him and ended up sleeping with him allegedly at his South Carolina home. That was some good revenge because that piece was like, everybody pretty much was like, you gotta read this.

[A]

Yeah. Well, also revealed in this piece is that she had a long time, long term relationship with Keith Olbermann.

[C]

Yeah, Puke.

[A]

Who paid for a lot of high end jewelry and clothing and a place for her in New York City. And that Ryan quote, you know, rescued her from this entanglement. Oh, the entanglement where I get all the Cartier and the nice bags.

[C]

But Keith Olbermann, look, this.

[A]

There's. There is a thing about this story that annoys me in a very specific way because, tell me, I don't love when people can't hold their ish together in public under rather minor duress.

[C]

When I have actually no duress at all.

[A]

No duress at all. Cartier bracelets and a burgeoning beautiful career When I have held mine together under extreme duress in public. And I don't like that it pays to unravel like this in public. I don't think it's healthy for her or for the audience or for media. And I actually kind of wonder if this is like a last gasp media scandal. It feels like very, very old fashioned.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I actually was speaking on a college campus the last night and asked if anyone knew who this person was.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

Not one. Right, right. Not one knew who this was. And in the media world, these people are important. Right. They have cachet.

[C]

Totally. Yes.

[A]

In another generation. None.

[C]

Right. I had to explain this story. Not had to. I chose to explain this story to a lot of normies in my life, including my sister in law who's visiting. And I was like, okay, you don't know who any of these people are.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

But like, you know, we have to stop for every. Like, you know, Keith Olbermann, he used to be on espn, but now he's like this Internet lunatic who just screams at people.

[A]

This is the problem. Everyone's arc is so long.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. But you know, the normies enjoyed the gossip and then they went on about their lives. They will not remember who these people are going forward. They don't matter to them at all. I wish them all the best. Wish them all the best.

[A]

I'm a bit of a grump about this story because it is fascinating to talk about. It makes me like a little annoyed with myself that I find it so fascinating because I don't want to be into that. And also I'm annoyed at the playing into the stereotype of this ingenue, smart young woman who I think in many ways was a talented reporter.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And now everything she's done is tainted. And I. That's not a pun. And I don't know what's real, but.

[C]

It actually, guys, is a pun.

[A]

I don't know what's real. And what's not. And that is part of the problem with modern media.

[C]

Such a problem. Yeah.

[A]

Her version of getting access is so much more lewd and obvious. But, like, the bias and the access gaining that she's doing is just a dirtier form of what we've seen in many other places. And you can't trust it. You can't trust these people.

[C]

Yeah. Where does the information come from? On one of my group chats, my Florida group chat, they have a running joke that I get my tips from Hunter Biden. Like, occasionally I'll get a, you know, a big tip. And they're sort of random, my big tips. Because I have a lot of tipsters and they're like, okay, it has to be Hunter Biden, like somebody like really high up. And so I just want to say I have not slept with Hunter Biden for any of these tips.

[A]

Thank goodness. Thank you. There is a thing here where, where particularly for women who are in the industry, when something like this happens, it makes everyone suspect. Suspect. Just as like that's the problem with sexual harassment and systematic abuse. Like happened with Roger Ailes is like everyone looks around and goes, oh, you must have done that too because you were young when you got hired at Fox. And to which I have a very good answer, which is Roger Ailes was neither professionally nor sexually interested in me and athletic brunettes were not their thing over there. So I was like in the clear. But it does not feel good.

[C]

No, it doesn't.

[A]

Have every woman looked at in this way and think, well, what? How did she get that interview?

[C]

Right. Right. Yeah. Who's our source?

[A]

I don't appreciate it, Olivia. I don't appreciate it.

[C]

We'll be right back with more on normally and slightly less sexy topic, but let' talk about education some more. We are back on normally where it turns out that there is a sharp decline in the number of families with young children and that that's under five in major cities in the last like almost 20 years. It looks at from 2005 to 2024, Chicago had a 31% drop. Boston, 33%, New York, 34%, Louisiana 36%. San Francisco, 38%. And the cities that have gained population are Austin, Orlando, Raleigh, Charlotte, Dallas and some others. Now, as my kids like to say, 100% of the people who confuse correlation with causation die. But I'm going to risk it and correlate anyway and point out that all of the places with this population drop were the strictest on schools reopening and the Places with the big gains weren't now under 5 years old. Means these people are not. These kids are not in school yet. But I think that a message was sent to parents and it was well received where schools were closed for over a year, you know, a year and a half in a lot of places. And parents got the message that schools just weren't important. And just to clarify, of course, only public schools were closed, private schools were open. Parents got the message, public schools cannot be relied on in these cities, and they left.

[A]

Yeah, I think American cities, liberal American Cities, during the 2020-2023. And look, I. I want these cities to succeed, sure. But I do. I looked at them and was like, you guys are committing suicide. You are already. The cost of living is so high. And the cost of living is so high for some perks. And the perks are like activities and theater and music and good dining. Food. Food, yes, all those things. Right. And then what did you do? You took away the perks, but you left the cost of living and then you added some public safety disarray, just like danger everywhere, chaos, vandalism. And you. And then you tell people when they say, it's hard for me to raise children here. This is just the cost of doing business. Yo. What?

[C]

Right. It's always been like this. Like, no, it really wasn't always like this.

[A]

And that is not an acceptable answer to them. So what happens is they go, I don't know. This seems hard, dangerous and expensive. I think I'll move on to somewhere like Raleigh where I can get a decent little piece of land with a decent home on it for a much lower price and there aren't vagrants on every corner because it's a different style of governance than it is in my city. And you're right, Carol, the schools are a huge part of this. I know. Of course, like people I know in D.C. it's basically understood that none of them are sending their kids to public schools there. Like, that's just not even a possibility. It's off the table. So it's this other huge expense on top of living in an expensive city. And by the way, what. What do you get for sending your kids to those schools? Well, I have a. Still mad about it, bro. For us.

[C]

Still mad about it, bro. Let's do it.

[A]

We are still mad about the inability of schools to educate children. And the Atlantic has a piece called A Recipe for Idiocracy. What happens when even college students can't do math anym? Now this is the jumping off point Is this UC San Diego study, which I appreciate those professors flagging saying we need to do something about this because they could have kept hiding the ball easily. Yes. The opening paragraph to this is. For the past several years, America has been using its young people as lab rats in a sweeping, if not exactly thought out education experiment. Schools across the country have been lowering standards and removing penalties for failure. The results are coming into focus. I just want to list a couple of the things that she discovered nails here.

[C]

Yeah, just found out about now.

[A]

This reporter, by the way, I don't want to go like I don't know what her personal views were on Covid and closing schools. She's very young, so like she's just reporting. Fine, let's. I'm not going to hold her feet to the fire over this. But the elite class in general. One of the courses tutors noted this is the ucsd that students faced more issues with logical thinking than with math facts per se, meaning they did not even know how to read and begin solving a word problem. Okay, scary. The decline started about a decade ago and sharply accelerated during the coronavirus pandemic. One theory is of course, that attention shredding, influence of phones and social media is to blame. But that's not all. Or maybe students have stopped achieving in math because schools have stopped demanding it of them.

[C]

Maybe that's it.

[A]

During the George W. Bush administration, federal policy emphasized accountability for public schools. Schools that saw poor performance on standardized tests received increased funding at first, but if scores still didn't improve, they had their funding pulled. Research suggests that this helped improve math outcomes, particularly for poor black students.

[C]

For those of us who were there though, that was called racist.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Even though it helped poor black students go ahead.

[A]

After 2015, federal government backed off from its accountability measures. There's more. The pandemic supercharged the decline. Districts that spent Most of the 2021 school year mandating remote learning saw students fall more than half a grade behind in math. Districts that reopened earlier saw more modest declines. And then to cover it up, many districts adopted things like no zeros policy, forcing teachers to pass students who had little command of the material and. And then finally the colleges discontinued, particularly in California, standardized testing, so they couldn't know that these kids weren't learning. So just to review pandemic closures, expectations, universal expectations, punishments for not meeting expectations, and standardized tests not acceptable.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What are the things we've been saying for. For years?

[C]

I feel like it's those things, actually. I feel like. I feel like we may have said Those things may have said those things. The non standardized testing is sort of the college's bad here. It's like you allowed students in without a standardized method by which to judge them. You, everything became subjective and you had to know this was going on. Why did you get rid of SATs? And I understand the, the pandemic era explanation, like, oh, not everybody could have taken the SAT in 2020. I mean, it's 2025. How are things going now? Everybody could take it, like, wear your triple mask.

[A]

Some of that was the, you know, this compassionate response, like, things are hard for everyone, so let's not make it harder by holding people to expectations. And I actually want to. There's actually research that shows I'm familiar with this because of my own family going through bereavement and losing a parent. When you go through something tough, it actually isn't the answer to drop standards and to get rid of and to be as kind to yourself as possible. Particularly for kids going through hard things, keeping standards is more beneficial to them. Keeping their schedules is more beneficial to them. And so I think some of that was well placed. Like, oh my gosh, everything's so stressful right now. But you're right, five years later, this is just hiding failure. It's just hiding failure. And eventually you get to the point where, yeah, college students cannot do middle school math or elementary school math.

[C]

Yep. And teachers unions try to get parents to opt their kids out of the standardized test way before 2020. I remember in Parksville, Brooklyn, where I live, super left area. It was just there was pressure to opt your kids out because kids shouldn't be taking standardized tests. I was like, oh, my kids are taking standardized tests, so they'll be not opting out here. But yeah, there was a lot of pressure from teachers unions on parents, especially on left parents. But to say that we shouldn't be held accountable because our kids are failing at every level and teachers should be held accountable. Of course they should. The better teachers will get better results. That's how it works. And this misplaced idea that nobody should fail and all failures should be hidden leads us to this moment.

[A]

And I think what concerned me perhaps most about that is what I feel like the underlying problem is, is that we are losing societally the skill of thinking and, and you could see it, the skill of learning itself.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is the part where like you can't just say like a calculator and AI is going to be able to do all this for you. You have to learn to think and those muscles are atrophying extremely quickly. And yeah, yeah, I think all these things were bad ideas 10, 15 years ago. And, and it's just, yeah, here we are.

[C]

Listen to us going forward is really the message here from all three segments, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Not sure we commented on sex scandals before, but don't have one.

[A]

Hey, you know, we could just look at our lives and how we've conducted ourselves, I think, you know. Yeah. Although I have said that the trashy, crazy trajectory for a media career is rewarding in the cash area.

[C]

Yeah, we're doing it all wrong, actually. If you want to, if you want to be, want to be upfront about it. We are not maximizing our being not.

[A]

Insane and being not trashy must be rewards unto themselves because they're gonna have to be. And we're doing those things.

[C]

Thanks for joining us on Normally. Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

[A]

This is an I Heart podcast.