Normally Podcast: Rubio Wins Munich, AOC/Whitmer Fumble Taiwan & Ukraine, Epstein Files Chaos + “Poop River”

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Normally Podcast: Rubio Wins Munich, AOC/Whitmer Fumble Taiwan & Ukraine, Epstein Files Chaos + 'Poop River'"

Podcast: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Episode Date: February 17, 2026
Hosts: Mary Katharine Ham & Carol Markowitz

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Normally podcast, hosted by Mary Katharine Ham and Carol Markowitz, takes a lively and incisive look at recent political and cultural news. The main focus is the performance of prominent U.S. politicians at the Munich Security Conference— specifically, Marco Rubio, AOC, and Gretchen Whitmer— and what their speeches and stumbles say about U.S. foreign policy competence and political optics. The hosts also address the ongoing chaos around disclosure of the Epstein files and its real-world impacts, and they round out the show with a local governance horror story: “Poop River” in the D.C. area.

The tone is witty and direct, combining sharp critique with playful jabs and some heartfelt moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Remembering Jon Echdal & James Van Der Beek (02:01 – 05:21)

• The hosts open with tributes to Jon Echdal, an admired online friend and commentator, and actor James Van Der Beek.
• Memorable reflections:
  • “He was also just a delight and funny and unfailingly reasonable in our environment where not everyone is.” (Mary Katharine Ham, 03:30)
  • “He’s a teen idol who got it right. Like, as a child actor, the chances you’re gonna get your priorities right in life are pretty low.” (Mary Katharine Ham, 04:31)

2. Book Shout-out: Buck Sexton’s "Manufacturing" (05:21 – 05:53)

• Carol gives a quick plug to Buck Sexton’s new book, praising his seriousness and insight as a former CIA officer.
• “I genuinely can’t wait for my copy to arrive.” (Carol Markowitz, 05:51)

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3. The Munich Security Conference: Rubio’s Star Moment (06:04 – 13:16)

Rubio’s Speech and Its Impact

• Rubio delivered a standout, 20-minute speech emphasizing confidence in Western values and a proactive alliance with Europe.
• Received rave reviews and a standing ovation; praised for being both “optimistic but serious.”

Key Excerpts from Rubio’s Speech (08:31 – 10:28)

• “For we in America have no interest in being polite and orderly caretakers of the West’s managed decline. ... What we want is a reinvigorated alliance that recognizes that what has ailed our societies is not just a set of bad policies, but a malaise of hopelessness and complacency….” (Marco Rubio, 09:04)
• “An alliance that boldly races into the future, and the only fear we have is the fear of the shame of not leaving our nations prouder, stronger and wealthier for our children.” (09:42)

Hosts’ Analysis & Enthusiastic Response

• “Such an optimistic but serious speech. I think a lot of times people mistake optimism for fluff and doom for seriousness. I think he proved that’s just not the case.” (Carol Markowitz, 10:28)
• “I especially liked the idea that it is not the mission of Western civilization to become merely a global welfare state and then to atone for our past sins. Like that, that idea is big.” (Mary Katharine Ham, 10:51)

Notable Subtopics

• How Rubio’s “positive criticism” compared to other politicians like J.D. Vance (12:23)
• The importance of tone and understanding your audience in international diplomacy (13:14)

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4. AOC & Whitmer: Foreign Policy Flops at Munich (13:36 – 21:42)

AOC’s Stumble on Taiwan (15:17 – 18:23)

• AOC’s response to whether the US would defend Taiwan was seen as “stumbling” and unprepared.
• Memorable jab: “She does the exact same thing here, where she puts up her hands, like, don’t ask me. I’m just a girl.” (Carol Markowitz, 16:05)
• The hosts critique her lack of preparation: “You spent six to eight hours on a flight… you could certainly have [a coherent thought] by the time you get off the plane.” (Mary Katharine Ham, 17:38)

Whitmer’s Non-Answer on Ukraine (18:34 – 20:12)

• When asked what ‘victory’ in Ukraine would look like, Whitmer deferred, emphasizing others’ expertise.
• “This one is more egregious to me… because the Democrats don’t have a position on Ukraine.” (Carol Markowitz, 19:28)
• The theme: Both politicians went to a foreign policy event unprepared for basic questions—a point of frustration for the hosts.

Bigger Picture

• The “Democrat privilege” of being able to get by with non-answers (17:53)
• Comparison to Trump: “He’ll have an answer. He might not give a direct answer, but he’ll have an answer.” (Carol Markowitz, 20:45)

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5. The Candace Owens – Erica Kirk Feud (24:35 – 27:29)

• Hosts voice strong support for Erica Kirk, widow of Charlie Kirk, under online attack from Candace Owens.
• Owens is accused of making wild allegations against Erica and TPUSA regarding Charlie’s death.
• Hosts argue ignoring Owens hasn’t worked and legal action might be necessary.
• “She needs to be stopped in a courtroom.” (Carol Markowitz, 26:06)
• “You can’t just be like, I guess I’ll be attacked endlessly with totally unfounded rumors about myself forever and ever. Amen.” (Mary Katharine Ham, 26:28)

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6. Epstein Files Chaos – The Perils of Radical Transparency (27:50 – 33:05)

• Criticism of the DOJ’s handling of Epstein file disclosures, as names of uninvolved people were wrongly publicized.
• Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie called out for reading non-involved names on the House floor.
• Host pushback: “Transparency is not justice.” (Mary Katharine Ham, citing Eliana Johnson, 30:24)
• Real-world impact: Innocent people, including a friend of Carol’s, listed in the released documents.
• Discussion of the precedent: This level of disclosure would cause harm in other investigations.

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7. Local Governance Fails: “Poop River” and Blue City Dysfunction (36:42 – 41:54)

• Recent break in D.C.-area wastewater pipes has dumped over 240 million gallons of sewage into the Potomac since Jan 19.
• Authorities were slow to respond or notify the public; now simply advising, “Don’t touch the river.”
• Comparison to major oil spills for scale (Exxon Valdez: 10 million gallons; this spill: 243 million gallons of sewage).
• Scathing observation:
  • “If this was going on in Florida… it would be a front page story in the Times and the Washington Post and everywhere else.” (Carol Markowitz, 40:02)
  • “Your governance in a blue metropolitan area will let you live in human crap. That is what they will do to you.” (Mary Katharine Ham, 40:49)
• Frustration about politicians focusing on media appearances, redistricting, and commissions rather than urgent fixes.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Leadership can breed more courage, and it can breed more confidence in our values.” (Mary Katharine Ham, 11:43)
• “There is this thing where once you are sort of an approved lefty… you get credit for being a smart person when you’re actually quite clearly ignorant of some major things.” (Mary Katharine Ham, 14:05)
• “Just read up. She was unprepared. And you’re absolutely right. It’s because she never gets hard questions. And that wasn’t even a hard one.” (Carol Markowitz, 21:42)
• “Nellie Bowles… got dragged for having met with Epstein. But Epstein was a source for a bunch of New York based… stories. This is what reporting looks like.” (Mary Katharine Ham, 29:59)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamps (MM:SS) | |---------|-------|-------------------| | Tribute section | Remembering Jon Echdal & Van Der Beek | 02:01 – 05:21 | | Book plug | Buck Sexton’s “Manufacturing” | 05:21 – 05:53 | | Main Event | Munich Security Conference recap, Rubio’s speech | 06:04 – 13:16 | | Critique | AOC & Whitmer on Taiwan/Ukraine | 13:36 – 21:42 | | Commentary | Candace Owens vs. Erica Kirk | 24:35 – 27:29 | | Deep Dive | Epstein Files disclosure & consequences | 27:50 – 33:05 | | Local News | Poop River & Blue City Governance | 36:42 – 41:54 |

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Tone & Language

In keeping with their “normalist” branding, the hosts use sharp humor and unvarnished assessments tempered by empathy when discussing tragedies and social media vitriol. Their critiques are often biting but balanced, aiming to expose both policy failures and absurdities in public discourse.

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers pointed political and cultural analysis with personality and wit. The hosts clearly side with substance, preparation, and responsible governance, whether in foreign policy, online conflict, media transparency, or city infrastructure. Through detailed anecdotes and direct address, they reinforce the value of “acting normally” even when the news gets weird— and, as they say, “Leadership can breed more courage.”

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For further questions or feedback about the episode, reach out to Normally at normallythepodmail.com.

Transcript

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[Mary Katharine Ham]

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Stars Ilya Malinin out of.

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The spectacle from beautiful Northern Italy with very special guests every night of the Olympics. Experience the world's biggest show. Prime time in Milan tonight, 87 Central on NBC and Peacock the big game.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Watch the full episode of their new E L f novella on soyounbano.com.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Hey guys, we are back on normally the show with normalist takes for when the news gets weird. I am Mary Kathryn Hamm.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I'm Kate Carol Markowitz. We lost an online friend last week that I feel like we need to mention. Jon Echdal was an amazing twitter follow. I would say that we mentioned him on normally more than we mentioned anyone else because he often had these really smart takes and ideas. Just really sad to lose someone like that. I didn't know him in real life but we were friends online and he was a fan of this show and I just wanted to take a minute and say we're going to miss him.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah, I wish I had known him in real life. We used to toss around the idea of getting together with Charlie Cook and his family and going to the Georgia Florida game in Jacksonville cause that's where they live and when we Hit this age. I mean, always, but particularly around our age, it feels like you have a lot of time left. But, you know, you're getting to this middle section where sometimes life has different ideas and you always think you have next year. And it was a real pleasure to be friends with him in any capacity. I first came across him because he understood the failure of, remember the orca, Mitt Romney, get out the vote technological.

[Carol Markowitz]

No, I don't remember that.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

So that's where I came across him, because he was a guy who was able to explain what had gone wrong here and why it hadn't worked. And I. I believe he may have predicted that it wasn't going to work. And from that moment on, I was like, okay, this is somebody who's specialized and interesting and can tell me things that I wouldn't otherwise know. He's also. He was also just a delight and funny and unfailingly reasonable in our environment where not everyone is. So my best to his family, who I know are having a very tough time, and I will miss him very much.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's a tragedy. It really is. On the same day, James Van Der Beek, who we grew up with as Dawson on the show Dawson's Creek, also died of cancer at age 48. And you wrote such a beautiful tribute to him in the Free Press. I read it this morning. It was really lovely. It's also just such a sad loss. I have a quick story about him. One time, Bethany Mandel and I went to some. Was it a children's manufacture convention? I'm not entirely sure, but James Van Der Beek was there and he was chasing around his kids, and Bethany's a fan. And I was like, oh, I'll just ask him for a picture with you. And he was like, guys, I'm chasing around my kids, like, literally. And we both really appreciated that. We thought that is really cool.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah. He had six kids. He so clearly enjoyed them. I wrote in the piece that, you know, he's a teen idol who got it right. Like, as a child actor, the chances you're gonna get your priorities right in life are pretty low.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's a rocky road, some to none.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And he really just enjoyed the heck out of his family. And I think at the end was focusing on them and his connection to God. And there are really worse ways to be on the doorstep at the end of life than that. And I've had this parasocial relationship with him since I was 15. So it's very interesting way that things sort of overlap in life and you experience these people both on screen and sort of in real life through social media. And I will just too sad to watch two young fathers go too young this week.

[Carol Markowitz]

It was a really terrible day. I'd give a special shout out to. To our friend Buck Sexton, whose book Manufacturing how the Left Uses Brainwashing, Indoctrination and Propaganda against you is out today, Tuesday. I'm very excited to read this. Buck is a really smart, serious person. I don't feel like this is going to be a political fluff book that he had to write for the hell of it. He is ex CIA. He has some really interesting insights. I genuinely can't wait for my copy to arrive today, Tuesday.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I'm excited to check this out.

[Carol Markowitz]

All right, let's get into the news.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

There's been some news.

[Carol Markowitz]

The news this weekend was there was some high points and some low points.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yes, the Munich Security Conference is going on, which is a very high profile foreign policy. To do that, many leaders go over to Germany to be part of. Among the leaders who went this time were Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Congresswoman AOC Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, and Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan. They all went there to sort of burnish their credentials. Rubio doesn't need much burnishing.

[Carol Markowitz]

No, but he's burnished anyway. He was like, I don't need burnishing and yet I'm here to burnish.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah. So he did a 20 minute speech for the whole crew.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And you know, it got basically rave reviews all weekend.

[Carol Markowitz]

It was perfect.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

It was really something because it was a. It was all the things that we talk about frequently. But it was done in such a positive way. The way he presented everything about how we care about you Europe with like, help us help you.

[Carol Markowitz]

Very well said. I thought, you know, first of all, can I just say that 20 minutes is my favorite length for a speech. I don't think speeches need to be more than 20 minutes, but I loved the whole thing. I particularly liked his ending. He said, I'm here today to leave it clear that America is charting the path for a new century of prosperity. And that once again, we want to do it together with you, our cherished allies and our oldest friends. We want to do it together with you. With a Europe that is proud of its heritage and of its history. With a Europe that has the spirit of creation, of liberty, that sent ships out into uncharted seas and birthed our civilization. With a Europe that has means to defend itself and the will to survive. We should be proud of what we achieved together in the last century. And now. Now we must confront and embrace the opportunities of a new one, because yesterday is over, the future is inevitable, and our destiny together awaits. I was like, woo.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

He also, I want to hear directly from him. And we have a little on the longish side clip of him, but it's worth hearing. It's beautiful. Where he talks about many of the things we talk about, which is, if the west does not have confidence in its own values, in its values being special, in its values being worthwhile, we don't have a future. And he addresses that, starting by saying, look, decline is a choice and we don't have to choose it. And here are some of the ways we could be better at not doing. And so here is Marco, excuse me, Secretary of State.

[Marco Rubio (speech clip)]

And this is why we do not want allies to rationalize the broken status quo rather than reckon with what is, what is necessary to fix it. For we in America have no interest in being polite and orderly caretakers of the West's managed decline. We do not seek to separate, but to revitalize an old friendship and renew the greatest civilization in human history. What we want is a reinvigorated alliance that recognizes that what has ailed our societies is not just a set of bad policies, but a malaise of hopelessness and complacency. An alliance is. The alliance that we want is one that is not paralyzed into inaction by fear, fear of climate change, fear of war, fear of technology. Instead, we want an alliance that boldly races into the future, and the only fear we have is the fear of the shame of not leaving our nations prouder, stronger and wealthier for our children. An alliance ready to defend our people, to safeguard our interests, and to preserve the freedom of action that allows us to shape our own destiny, not one that exists to operate a global welfare state and atone for the purported sins of past generations. An alliance that does not allow its power to be outsourced, constrained or subordinated to systems beyond its control. One that does not depend on others for the critical necessities of its national life. And one that does not maintain the polite pretense that our way of life is just one among many and that ask for permission before it acts. And above all, an alliance based on the recognition that we, the west, have inherited together. What we have inherited together is something that is unique and distinctive and irreplaceable, because this, after all, is the very foundation of the transatlantic bond.

[Carol Markowitz]

Just so, well done. Such an optimistic but serious speech. I think A lot of times people mistake optimism for fluff and doom for seriousness. I think he proved that. That's just not the case. He's fantastic.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah. And I really like.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I would say we got in early on the Marco Rubio's Amazing Train. We thought he's been great for quite some time.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

It is true. I especially liked the idea that it is not the mission of Western civilization to become merely a global welfare state and then to atone for our past sins like that. That idea is big. He's sort of. He repudiated the disabling elements of mass migration. What he's doing is pointing out all the things that normal people feel and see all the time, but that at a place like the Munich Security Conference, everyone's just like, ooh, are we allowed to say that?

[Carol Markowitz]

Right, Right. Are we allowed to say that we, like, our civilization is crazy. It's bonkers. And Rubio was there to be like, yes, you're allowed to say you like your civilization that did all of these amazing things and created a lot of our modern world. Like, it's okay.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

By the way, I want to note two critiques. We're going to go into some AOC film as well here, but one of the critiques from AOC was this was a explicit appeal to Western culture. Yes, aoc. That was what it was. That's what it should be. Leadership can breed more courage, and it can breed more confidence in our values. The New York Times ran an interesting critique which was basically, yeah, sure, he talks about all these Western ideals that bring us together, but mass migration has completely changed Europe, and we don't have those in common anymore. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I think. I think that might have been part of the point.

[Carol Markowitz]

There's also this idea that what Europe has done in the last 10 years is what it must do in the next 10 years. And I think Rubio was there to say, you could stop this. You can stop this. You're actually not. You know, you don't have to continue down this path that's been so destructive for you. You can change the rules around what you can and cannot say. We should also mention. And look, you know, I feel like there's a lot of people who want to set up the Vance Rubio battle. I thought Vance gave a fantastic speech last summer, but a lot of people are saying, like, what Vance said and what Rubio said were the same thing. But Rubio got a standing ovation, and it was much more pos optimistic and less critical of our allies, while While being critical, but not like poking them in the eye with it.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Right. Tone matters.

[Carol Markowitz]

Tone does matter.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And knowing your audience matters. And Vance might be targeting different people. Last year, he was sort of talking maybe to us more than he was talking to Europe. I do think Rubio's ability to be kind and charismatic while critical is a skill.

[Carol Markowitz]

It is. And he makes people like AOC crazy. One of her other criticisms was she said, my favorite part was when he said that American cowboys come from Spain. And I believe the Mexicans and descendants of African enslaved peoples would like to have a word on that. Yeah, they also came from Spain.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Wait till she hears where Spanish came from.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's gonna be a real problem the way Western civilization was involved.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I do. There is this thing where once you are sort of an approved lefty and you've got all your academic nonsense nomenclature going on, you get credit for being a smart person when you're actually quite clearly ignorant of some major things. Which she illustrates by saying that none of this had European roots and that we should object to him pointing all of that out. By the way, I thought her illustration objected to Trump's distancing of us from Europe. And now she's objecting to Rubio's bringing us back together. Who knows what she objects to? Yeah, who knows? But, like, there's major gaps here in the understanding. And I think we should go to AOC and Gretchen Whitmer and their clips during this event. I want to make clear that both of these women traveled to Munich knowing that the discussion was specifically foreign policy based. Yeah, there. There was no question about what you were supposed to be discussing. And yet this is AOC's answer to a question about Taiwan. One of the most obvious things you would be asked about at this gathering. Shall we play it?

[Carol Markowitz]

Here we go. Would and should the US actually commit US troops to defend Taiwan if China were to move?

[Narrator/Announcer]

You know, I think that this is such a. You know, I think that this is a. This is, of course, a very long standing policy of the United States. And I think what we are hoping for is that we want to make sure that we never get to that point. And we want to make sure that we are moving in all of our economic research and our global positions to avoid any such confrontation and for that question to even arise.

[Carol Markowitz]

I haven't seen her stumble like that in a while. And it's funny, because her last stumble that I remember like this very clearly was when she was asked about Israel and the Palestinian territories and whether that should be a two State Solution, I believe it was on Firing Line, and she was just like, I'm not an expert. And she does the exact same thing here, where she puts up her hands, like, don't ask me. I'm just a girl. Like, yeah. This was a real preview of all the things she will not be able to answer as a presidential candidate. I'm worried about her. I don't think it'll be an easy path to beat her because she is talented politically, but there is a lot this lady does not know. And if she goes up against Vance or Rubio, I just. They will eat her alive.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I agree with you, Carol, that she should not be underestimated because she has a bit of spontaneity, a bit of warmth. She can be a little quick on her feet in a casual back and forth with someone outside the Capitol. And I think it serves her well. Here we have, I think, real Democrat privilege, which is she thinks she can go anywhere she wants and not be asked serious things and not be stumped. And who's James Surowitz? Is that his name?

[Carol Markowitz]

Wisdom of crowds guy.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

James asked me at one point when I was tweeting about this. Well, what's the correct answer on Taiwan? And it's like, let me. Let me tell you something. She's a Democrat.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

She doesn't even have to have the right answer.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

She just has to have an answer. You spent six to eight hours on a flight. Even if you hadn't had a conversant thought, a semi coherent thought on Taiwan before you got on the plane, you could certainly have one by the time you get off the plane.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. And there was no way.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

She ends up saying we should never get to that point. That could have been what you started with, like, well, I get it. I agree. There is no great answer on Taiwan. And nobody is going to say, yes, we're going to send American troops to Taiwan if China attacks. Although we all kind of believe that is what's going to happen. It's like, yes. You can't just say things that you know are going to destabilize relationships. I get that. She gets that. Still have an answer?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah. Put the. Put the phrase strategic ambiguity in your head, learn three sentences, and you're fine. No one's going to call you out unless you do this.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I just. The, the lack of respect for the exercise in not prepping at all is very. It's actually a little surprising to me. Can we hear Gretchen Whitmer as well? Because here she is being asked about Ukraine who would have imagined you'd get that question on Ukraine?

[Carol Markowitz]

What does victory look like?

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

Ambassador?

[Guest Announcer/Promo Voice]

No, please. I'd love to hear your answer.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

It is. The two that I am on the panel with are much more steeped in foreign policy than is. Than a governor is. But, you know, I do think that Ukraine's independence, keeping their. Their landmass and having the support of. Of all the allies, I think is. Is the goal from my vantage point. Go ahead, Ambassador. Do a better job.

[Carol Markowitz]

This one is more egregious to me even, because the Democrats don't have a position on Ukraine. And I've been saying this since the beginning. They. There's a lot of, like, you know, Republicans or Trump specifically, or pro Russia or whatever, have not seen Democrats stake a position on Ukraine. What should America be doing? Should they be sending. Should we be sending more money? Should we be sending troops? All of that is a discussion that they are unwilling to have. They just want to tie Trump to Putin, and that's the entire ball game for them. And that clearly is not enough on the world stage.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Well, and once again, it's like AOC putting her hands up. She's like, I. I'm but a governor.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Okay, great.

[Carol Markowitz]

So what are you doing here?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

You're a governor. Yeah. Who came to Munich. What's the point of you being here if you haven't taken some time to think about this and if you haven't made a plan to make your points. Marco Rubio made a plan to make some points. I.

[Carol Markowitz]

And he could have done that as Senator as well.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yes. Well, and to be fair, President Trump might show up without a plan to make specific policy points, but he was already elected president. Y' all are trying to.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, he's trying to get his job. Right. Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I mean, I was actually surprised.

[Carol Markowitz]

Trump would never stammer like that. He might also not give a direct answer. But he'll never be like, oh, I never. He will be like, Taiwan, you know, we'll see what happens with Taiwan. Maybe China will try to invade and maybe we'll do something, but maybe they won't and maybe we won't.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And just. He.

[Carol Markowitz]

He'll have an answer.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Well, and again, I want to emphasize. Truly, that's all that's required, is to speak for 23 seconds and put some. She knows a lot of nonsense phrases. She should throw some nonsense phrases out there. And there, but for the grace of God go I. I have been in a situation where my brain freezes up and you're trying to get the right answer and you're trying to grab something. However, if you I if you are traveling.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

To another country to do a specific event. Just read up. Just read up.

[Carol Markowitz]

She was unprepared. And you're absolutely right. It's because she never gets hard questions. And that wasn't even a hard one. All right, we're gonna take a short break and come right back with things we don't want to talk about, but have to be right back with more on Normally.

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It'S an Olympics you'll never forget. Prime Time in Milan, the Moments Chloe.

[Carol Markowitz]

Kim with the gold medal, Flex the.

[Guest Announcer/Promo Voice]

Stars Ilya Malinin out of this World.

[Olympics Promo Announcer]

The spectacle from beautiful northern Italy with very special guests. Every night of the Olympics, experience the the world's biggest show, Prime Time in Milan tonight, 87 Central on NBC and Peacock.

[Guest Announcer/Promo Voice]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor supply growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures hey.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

This is US Olympic gold medalist Tara.

[Hunter Woodhull]

Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

As athletes, our lives are about having.

[Hunter Woodhull]

A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

So when it came to getting the.

[Hunter Woodhull]

Best mortgage, we chose PennyMac.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and you.

[PennyMac Advertiser]

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[Cindy Crawford]

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[Carol Markowitz]

We are back with more on normally. And there's stories that are in the ether that are prominent, that we're like, why do I have to talk about this? And Candace Owens is, like, always at the top of my ill list. The fact is, though, ignoring her didn't work, and I think there needs to be a more direct attack on her. I think when Ben Shapiro went after her in December, it really took some wind out of her sails. She became crazier, but that exposed a lot more about what she's doing. But for our purposes here, Mary Katherine and I are on widow defense of Erica Kirk. And Candace is getting crazier and crazier and accusing Erica Kirk of just insane things, like removing a picture of Charlie from the background of the podcast. Erica had to explain that she actually moved it lower so that her daughter could see it. Candace is has accused TP usa, Charlie's organization, of being involved in his murder. She borders on accusing Erica herself, but she says things constantly that lead people to believe that Erica was involved in the murder of her own husband.

[Narrator/Announcer]

It's just.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's. It's really sick. And people who have covered for Candace or have not attacked her directly are just cowards. And I. It's sickening, really.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah. Like, someone needs to really invest in a lawsuit here. Mm.

[Carol Markowitz]

The line needs to be drawn. And I hear people say, this is what she wants. She wants a lawsuit. She'll be the victim. She's already playing the victim. She already plays the victim. She already portrays herself as somebody who's been cast out because she's just searching for the real killer. And she's just a crazy person with a microphone. She needs to be stopped in a courtroom.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I do think this kind of figure is really tricky to deal with because, yes, she does want attention, and yes, she thrives off attention. And yes, that's what she's creating every single second of every day. And also, if you are the person, you can't just be like, I guess I'll Be attacked endlessly with totally unfounded rumors about myself forever and ever. Amen. There was another incident recently where people in the Candace camp are airing a video of Erica speaking to her employees at Turning Point shortly after Charlie's death. And she's just saying normal things, like, you can have time off if you're grieving. She's clearly distraught. She's trying to pull people together. And this was somehow twisted into an indictment of her.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

When in fact, I was like, wow, you're really blowing the lid off of this compassionate manager story about Erica Kirk.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah. A lot. A lot of online politics is learning about characters I would otherwise not at all want to know about.

[Carol Markowitz]

Why do I know who these people are? I hate that.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

The groipers, the look, smackers, the words they use. I'm not interested. No, thank you. But I have to sort of be interested.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes, I have to pass, But I have to sort of know what's going on. It's. It's awful. The other topic that I just. I. Look, I want anybody who committed any crimes with Jeffrey Epstein held accountable, but we are on a wild goose chase at this point. People who have nothing to do with it are being just maligned here. Ro Khanna, who, with Tom Smassey, are like the ringleaders of all of this, where they want to bring people to justice. And again, I do, too, but you're not bringing anyone to justice, and nobody is being named as having done any of these horrific things that we keep hearing about. Ro Khanna on the floor of Congress, read the names of six people, and he said, I forced last night the DOJ to disclose the identities of six men that him and Thomas Massie forced this. And he reads these six names, and he says that these are powerful men and that he is exposing them. And then it turns out that they were actually part. Four of them were part of a photo lineup. So not only did they not commit any crimes with Jeffrey Epstein, they had zero to do with it. They were randos picked for a photo lineup not connected to Epstein at all. And of course, it's somehow blamed on the DOJ for not providing the explanation earlier instead of redacting, then unredacting their names. This is what Ro Khanna says. It's just. It makes no sense to me anymore. And when he says Ro Khanna tweets, they have failed to protect survivors. Created confusion for innocent men. Bro, you did that. You created that confusion. You read these names on the Congress floor as if you knew what you were talking about. And you didn't. And so it has become just a wild goose chase. People are saying the most horrific things online about people. I think we talked about this a few weeks ago where somebody posted a picture of a tech founder with a bunch of children on him and they were like, ew, this is so horrible. And then they were his own children. It's just ridiculous.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Nellie Bowles, who was a New York Times reporter at the time, got dragged for having met with Epstein. But Epstein was a source for a bunch of New York based and finance world based stories and important people based on stories. Right. This is what reporting looks like. I listened to Eliana Johnson on the commentary podcast and she had a great line about this and a forceful pushback on the idea that this should all be out there saying, transparency is not justice. Transparency, transparency is not justice. And I think I've been maybe too laissez faire about this, thinking like, okay, the thing was fishy from the beginning. I think that Epstein should have been punished more the first time he was caught. I don't think these people should have associated themselves with him after the fact, after they knew about him. And Also, in releasing 6 million pages of information from an investigation, what you've done is just open the door to exactly what Ro, Khanna and Massie have done here and hurting people who had absolutely nothing to do this do with this, who probably don't have resources to deal with being accused in this manner. And I don't think we're any of us smarter or more. Justice has been served by virtue of this. Absolutely.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. I was scrolling through the documents on the Justice Department site and I was putting in kind of generic terms like corporation or agency or whatever just to see the sort of what was out there. And I came across the name of one of my friends who is a real estate agent, has zero. I mean, has never met Epstein, has zero to do with Epstein. Literally. I sent this to her and she has no idea what that apartment sale even had to do with Epstein. It just got forwarded to him. But, you know, imagine I'm reading this and my friend's name is in there. I just a lot of very innocent people. Not just innocent, but literally having absolutely nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein or being caught up in this. Like, you can't just shrug our shoulders and say, who cares? We have to get justice for the victims. I want justice for the victims. This doesn't get us that.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

We also have to think about the precedent for other investigations. Because as soon as a particular lightning rod investigation becomes the one that someone important says, we have to release all the files. Every single person who spoke to police, every single person whose texts or emails were part of an investigation become public. That's not usually the standard that undergirds our system. The standard is that you are protected.

[Carol Markowitz]

It had helped if all of this got released and powerful people were exposed and went to prison over it or were charged with something or it proved something, that would be amazing and fantastic. But that's not what's happening here. And it just, it's just, it's disconcerting to me that so many people don't care that it's like, so what? So what if randos are being caught up in this? That's just the price we have to pay to get all the information out.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I mean, a lot of this goes back to just public officials being responsible. And unfortunately our, much of our modern media era in particular and political era, incentivizing irresponsibility instead of being responsible. Yeah, but you know, you got elected. You should do better.

[Carol Markowitz]

Like a lot better. All right, we're going to take a short break and be right back with more on normally. We're going to talk poop River. Mary Catherine Poop River. And this is not the topic that we wanted to avoid. Be right back.

[Olympics Promo Announcer]

It's an Olympics you'll never forget. Prime time in Milan, the moments.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Chloe Kim with the gold medal reflects the stars.

[Guest Announcer/Promo Voice]

Ilya Malin out of this world, the.

[Olympics Promo Announcer]

Spectacle from beautiful northern Italy with very special guests. Every night of the Olympics experience the world's biggest show, Prime Time in Milan tonight, 87 Central on NBC. And Peacock.

[Guest Announcer/Promo Voice]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public investing brokerage services. By open to the public Investing, Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures hey.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

This is US Olympic gold medalist Tara.

[Hunter Woodhull]

Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhall.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

As athletes, our lives are about having.

[Hunter Woodhull]

A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

So when it came to getting the.

[Hunter Woodhull]

Best mortgage, we chose PennyMac.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and you.

[PennyMac Advertiser]

Learn more at pennymac.com PennyMac Loan Services, LLC equal housing lender NMLS ID 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act. Conditions and restrictions may apply.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Mary Katharine Ham]

All right, we are back on normally with a distasteful topic, but one that we must address. I may have mentioned it before in our Bad Blue City Governance stories, but it's gotten worse. On January 19th of this year, part of the wastewater treatment pipelines in the DMV area, Washington, D.C. virginia, Maryland cracked and failed and started diverting wastewater into the Potomac River. The Potomac river is not famously super clean, but it's okay. People do water sports in it. People row. It's right now. You should not go near it.

[Carol Markowitz]

No, it is.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

This is from the very beginning of this thing. The interceptor line that broke was roughly 60 years old, and carries up to 60 million gallons of wastewater daily from Loudoun and Fairfax counties, areas near Washington Dulles International Airport, all of Northern Virginia, basically. It's been doing that into the Potomac since January 19th. That is almost a month. And by the way, when it comes to local governance, it took Virginia almost a month to say anything about it. DC Was like, slightly earlier in late January saying, oh, we're working on it. Maryland was like, oh, we're working on it. And now the whole message is don't touch the river. That's the message. The message isn't, we are absolutely getting this cleaned up.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, we're on it.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

As quickly as possible.

[Carol Markowitz]

We're cleaning up the poop River.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

No, no, no, no. And by the way, the poop river goes to the Chesapeake Bay. If you live in the mid Atlantic, you have been subject to a relentless campaign that the Chesapeake Bay must be pristine at all times for, like, the last 30 years. I'm wondering how much of that we're undoing right this second as this stuff flows away. But the moment, the most amazing thing to me is that I looked up the coverage. It's the Washingtonian, it's local Arlington. Now it's Outside magazine did a piece because, you know, they're interested in the outside. They note that it is. The E. Coli is extremely high with the 243 million gallons of sewage that have flowed into the river. Just for perspective, I want to tell you, Carol, I looked it up. Exxon Valdez, about 10 million gallons of oil. Deepwater Horizon, about 200 million gallons of oil. So we are going to surpass that in sewage.

[Carol Markowitz]

That sounds bad. It really does. And, you know, the left is supposed to be environmentalists, right? Where are they? How could this not be a giant story?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

They're very, very quiet, and they're very, very not hard on the governments of D.C. maryland, and Virginia, who basically didn't address this for several weeks. The snowstorm came right on the heels of the breakage, so they had to deal with the snowstorm. It has been frozen here, thank goodness, for several weeks. It is now 50 degrees. I allow you to imagine what's going to happen when it hits 70, 80.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's gonna sound delightful. Yeah, it is.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

It's gonna take a turn here, guys. And don't touch the river is not a good enough answer.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. I. I just am trying to imagine if this was going on in Florida, and first of all, Ron DeSantis would've already fixed it. But second of all, it would be a front Page story in the Times and the Washington Post and everywhere else. I hope they fix that poop river for you guys. I hope poop river doesn't continue on into summer. New York is having this thing where they had, you know, this big snowstorm and a lot of people didn't clean up their poop, the dog poop. And now that the snow has melted and there's dog poop everywhere, I feel like there's some similarities here.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Well, you remember the refrain about San Francisco before. It has now become slightly better, but it was a feces problem as well. Your governance in a blue metropolitan area will let you live in human crap. That is what they will do to.

[Carol Markowitz]

You, the ideology says.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And then they'll be like, this seems fine. Should we do some more redistricting, guys? By the way, Wes Moore, who is the governor of Maryland, is doing a national media tour because he's like the up and coming guy for 2028 right now, and he did a segment on CBS News saying, hey, you know, we've got to stop being the party of slow and commissions. We got to build things. So, of course, this area is like, I don't know, it's probably gonna take us like, eight, nine months to fix this. And I want to also remember that Maryland Governor Wes Moore was in charge of Maryland when that giant bridge, the Francis Scott Key Bridge, went down. When that tanker hit it. It was July of the next year before they had removed all the remnants of the old bridge. It has not been rebuilt. The projected data is 2030. But sure do things fast, guys. All right, well, get DeSantis in here.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. What could we appoint him as to fix these problems? Just like federal fixer.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Is there a competence czar? Because that's what we need.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's good. That's much better, honestly, for the fixer.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

For the federal government and every state government, competences are, let's do it.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love it. Let's make it happen. Well, thanks for joining us on Normally. Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays, and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

Hey, this is U.S. olympic gold medalist.

[Hunter Woodhull]

Tara Davis Woodhull, and I'm U.S. paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

As athletes, our lives are about having.

[Hunter Woodhull]

A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

So when it came to getting the.

[Hunter Woodhull]

Best mortgage, we chose PennyMac.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA.

[PennyMac Advertiser]

And you learn more at pennymac.com PennyMac Loan Services, LLC equal housing lender NMLS ID 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act. Conditions and restrictions may apply.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Carol Markowitz]

Further.

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Mary Katharine Ham]

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