Normally Podcast: Sign Here, Sleep Later: Joe Biden and the Auto Pen Chronicles

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Normally Podcast: *Sign Here, Sleep Later: Joe Biden and the Auto Pen Chronicles
Release Date: July 15, 2025
Host: Mary Kathryn Ham
Co-Host: Carol Markowitz
Guest: Selena Zito
Duration: Approximately 34 minutes

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Introduction

The episode of Normally kicks off with hosts Mary Kathryn Ham and Carol Markowitz diving straight into current political controversies, sidestepping the initial advertisements and non-content segments. Their discussion is framed around recent actions and decisions by former President Joe Biden, educational system challenges, and reflections on a significant assassination attempt on Donald Trump.

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Joe Biden’s Pardons and the Auto Pen Controversy

[06:00] Mary Kathryn Ham:
The hosts open with a critical analysis of Joe Biden's recent pardon actions. A New York Times interview reveals that Biden did not individually approve each pardon in large tranches but instead delegated the task to his aides, utilizing an "auto pen." This method has sparked controversy and comparisons to former President Donald Trump's approach to pardons.

Notable Quote:
"Mr. Biden did not individually approve each name for the categorical pardons that applied to large numbers of people... This is an entirely different story." — Mary Kathryn Ham [06:32]

Discussion Points:

• Delegation of Power: Biden's reliance on an auto pen raises questions about the oversight and personal involvement of the President in the pardon process.
• Comparison to Trump: Unlike Biden's delegated approach, Trump personally signed his pardons on camera, highlighting a stark difference in presidential accountability.
• Aide Testimony: A former aide disclosed that the Bureau of Prisons provided additional inmate information post-delegation, leading to modifications without direct presidential input.

[07:45] Carol Markowitz:
Carol emphasizes the importance of determining whether Biden was in a proper state of mind during these actions, suggesting that the use of an auto pen may reflect underlying issues with presidential decision-making.

Notable Quote:
"The question is whether the person in charge... was of a state of mind where he could actually agree to those things." — Mary Kathryn Ham [07:45]

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Educational Standards: Graduation Rates vs. SAT Scores

[15:16] Mary Kathryn Ham:
Shifting focus, the hosts delve into the educational sector's paradox where graduation rates are increasing while SAT scores are declining. They attribute this trend to "social promotion," where students are advanced without meeting academic standards to inflate graduation statistics.

Notable Quote:
"Lowering the bar is not wise. It's a recipe for disaster." — Mary Kathryn Ham [15:55]

Discussion Points:

• Social Promotion: The practice of advancing students regardless of academic performance undermines educational integrity.
• State Success Stories: Highlighting states like Louisiana, Alabama, and Tennessee, the hosts discuss how stricter literacy requirements lead to genuine academic improvements rather than mere statistical enhancements.
• Standardized Testing: Advocating for standardized tests as essential tools for gauging student competency and holding both students and educators accountable.

[19:31] Mary Kathryn Ham:
Mary introduces a study from the University of Virginia titled "Good Fathers, Flourishing Kids," underscoring the critical role of active father involvement in child academic and emotional well-being.

Notable Quote:
"Children with disengaged fathers are 68% less likely to get mostly good grades and nearly four times as likely to suffer from depression." — Mary Kathryn Ham [21:02]

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Reflection on the Assassination Attempt on Donald Trump

[24:11] Mary Kathryn Ham:
Marking the one-year anniversary of the assassination attempt on Donald Trump in Butler, Pennsylvania, the hosts express concern over the lack of media coverage and public reflection on the event.

Notable Quote:
"We should do better on that. We really should." — Carol Markowitz [34:34]

Personal Anecdotes:

• Mary Kathryn's Experience: Mary recounts being on a plane during the incident, initially receiving unverified information before confirming the seriousness of the event upon landing.
• Selena Zito's Testimony: Guest Selena Zito provides a firsthand account of witnessing the assassination attempt, detailing Trump's reaction and the immediate actions of the Secret Service.

Notable Quote:
"I was four feet away from Trump at this point, and the shooter killed Thomas Matthew Crooks, a 20-year-old." — Selena Zito [29:10]

Discussion Points:

• Media Silence: The minimal coverage and lack of commemorative discussions about the assassination attempt raise concerns about media priorities.
• Political Implications: The incident's aftermath, including conspiracy theories and the trivialization of the event, reflect deep societal divisions and challenges in addressing political violence.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reflection on the importance of addressing significant political events and maintaining accountability within governmental and educational systems. The hosts advocate for truth-seeking and responsible discourse to ensure informed public understanding and effective governance.

[34:36] Mary Kathryn Ham:
"These moments are important." — Mary Kathryn Ham

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Notable Quotes Summary

• "Mr. Biden did not individually approve each name for the categorical pardons that applied to large numbers of people... This is an entirely different story." — Mary Kathryn Ham [06:32]
• "Lowering the bar is not wise. It's a recipe for disaster." — Mary Kathryn Ham [15:55]
• "Children with disengaged fathers are 68% less likely to get mostly good grades and nearly four times as likely to suffer from depression." — Mary Kathryn Ham [21:02]
• "We should do better on that. We really should." — Carol Markowitz [34:34]
• "These moments are important." — Mary Kathryn Ham [34:36]

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the Normally podcast episode, highlighting the hosts' critical discussions on political accountability, educational integrity, and national security incidents. The inclusion of direct quotes with timestamps provides authenticity and allows readers to reference specific moments from the episode.

Transcript

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

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[Carol Markowitz]

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[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Hey, guys. We are back on. Normally the show with normalish takes for when the news gets weird. I am Mary Kathryn Ham.

[Unknown]

And I'm Carol Markowitz. Another relaxing weekend. Mary Kathryn.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I was saying, like, I can't. I can't engage with this. Like, when the whole DOJ is fighting with each other on Friday night, I'm like, nah, yeah, I'm checking out. And I went and got my kids. They were with the grandparents for a week. And I went on a road trip with all four kids to pick them up and bring them back. And it was one of those days. I'm sure you've had them where everything went haywire. Like, we hit in an epic storm where people are driving with their flashers on just so they can be seen. Yeah, I get the big kids. Every single thing I had planned to do with the four of them was either rained out or there was no power at the places we wanted to go because of the storm. And we ended up eating at Waffle House and, like, waiting in a creek. So if you ever wonder.

[Unknown]

That sounds perfect, actually.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Like, just. Just revert to redneck when disaster strikes. That is the key.

[Unknown]

Yeah. You know, I have three kids, you have four kids. I. A mom on a plane yesterday with four kids, and I Always am. Like, I wish I had a fourth. Like, I wish we had, you know, gotten for it. That fourth kid. It really does add a lot of kid.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Just the counting of heads, like when you're in a public space, becomes larger. But we did have a wonderful time. It was a disastrous, wonderful day. So.

[Unknown]

Yeah, amazing. All right, well, we're not gonna get into the Epstein stuff today. We are going to see how it shakes out in the next day or two. I know we get a cur of, like, not covering some topics because we are, you know, we wait and see. But we've not been wrong on the waiting and seeing yet.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

It's a really good skill to have for a Norman.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Like, is anyone gonna quit? I would like to see. And then we'll discuss.

[Unknown]

Right. We will watch it play out and then we'll talk about it. But we probably will get into it for Wednesday's episode, depending on how the next day or two shake out. But we'll start today with our last president, Joe Biden and his kooky, kooky administration.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Wow. What have they been up to? Well, here's the first thing that's got. So the news story is that the New York Times gets an interview with Joe Biden in which he says, yeah, in these giant categories of pardons that you've all been wondering about, where people were controversially let off the hook in these giant tranches of pardons. I theoretically said yes to those, but no, I did not sign all of them. The auto pin was used to a great degree in those large groupings.

[Unknown]

Let me read you the quote. Mr. Biden did not individually approve each name for the categorical pardons that applied to large numbers of people. He and the aides confirmed. Rather, after extensive discussion of different possible criteria, he signed off on the standards he wanted to be used to determine which convicts would qualify for a reduction in sentence. Right now, people are comparing this to 1-6- pardons by Donald Trump. Whatever you think of those pardons, Donald Trump signed those pardons on camera. They were not signed by who knows who with an auto pen. Donald Trump might not be able to name every January sixer, but that's irrelevant because we saw him sign the pardons, and this is an entirely different story.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Well, and I just think all of it goes back to, like, the question is not whether it's okay for an auto pin to do things. We have all agreed to some extent that that happens in a presidency. The question is whether the person in charge of saying that the auto pin could sign Things was of a state of mind where he could actually agree to those things.

[Unknown]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

In Biden's case, especially with some of these more controversial things, it's real unclear exactly where he was, and it makes me uncomfortable. Although I do think the pardon power is so clear and extensive that there's probably not a lot to be done except for to expose what happened. I'm not sure there's consequences, which is.

[Unknown]

A step forward and again, finding out who was running the country during that time. I love this part of the New York Times article. Mr. Trump, asked by a reporter last month whether he had uncovered evidence that anything had been illegally signed without Mr. Biden's knowledge, said no. But he cited his rival's debate performance in June 2024, when Mr. Biden, 81 at the time, delivered halting and meandering answers. Mr. Biden withdrew soon after his reelection bid. Quote, I've uncovered, you know, the human mind, Mr. Trump said. I was in the debate with the human mind, and I didn't think he knew what the hell he was doing, end quote.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Fair. Fair. The other part of this reporting says so he's given the, the strictures or the. He's talked. He signs off on the guidelines for what a group of pardons should reflect. But then it goes on to say, even after Mr. Biden made that decision, one former aide said, the Bureau of Prisons kept providing additional information about specific inmates, resulting in small changes to the list. Rather than ask Mr. Biden, who My. This is, my parenthetical was probably napping or comatose or what have you given times.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

On the beach.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Rather than asking Mr. Biden to keep signing revised versions, his staff waited and then ran the final version through the auto pen, which they saw as a routine procedure. The aide said, that's an interesting sentence because it does not include a check back, either over phone or in person.

[Unknown]

Yep.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Or the penny thing. There's no, there's no conferencing with the president on. Oh, we made a few changes.

[Unknown]

Right. We added people. I mean, it has to be through the president, and that is. That goes unmentioned. I also like that the New York Times headline was, of course, a variation on the Republicans pounce theme.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Right, right, right.

[Unknown]

Donald Trump and his allies have begun investigations to support their claims that Joseph R. Biden Jr. Was incapacitated and his staff conspired to take place presidential actions in his name.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah, he was incapacitated. His staff was empowered to take actions in his name. Like, that's the problem.

[Unknown]

Why are you Pouncing Mary Katherine, like.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Pouncing on the Truth is pretty is a pretty decent thing to do.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Do you think we find out who was running the White House?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Probably not. Really?

[Unknown]

You don't think KJP's book as an independent tells us anything from inside?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

No, no, no. I mean, look, I think that is.

[Unknown]

The only way her book sells though, so.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

That's true. But I think she's going to critique him from the left and she's not interested in exposing what actually went down. Like that would be interesting. I mean she certainly had a front row seat. Although she's not a person of discernment, so who knows what you would get from her. But I just think this is one of those things where because largely the press is to the left, they're all gonna be like, see, it's one of those things where you can't talk about it while it's happening because it's rude. That's rude. And conspiracy theorizing. And then you can't talk about it after it happened. Cause that's old news. And why would you talk about that? And I'm like, that's not amazing. It's very recent and I feel like we should talk about it. So I appreciate Republicans investigating it. And I think that such that we get answers, that'll be the only place. Because unless there's a follow up to all these tell alls about the campaign that include what the hell happened for four years, I don't think we're getting it right.

[Unknown]

And I don't know that Senate and House Republicans can get to the bottom of this either. Although I would like to see them continue to try.

[Selena Zito]

This is important.

[Unknown]

It's not a nothing story. This is like we elect someone to run the country and that someone was really unable to do that for those last four years and somebody else was taking his place. Maybe it was multiple people, maybe it was many people, but I'd like to know that and I want to know who covered it up and how it all went down. And these kinds of asides about him not really participating in the auto pen signing of these pardons. It's a step in the right direction of telling that story.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Also, can we just note why? Why is he giving interviews?

[Unknown]

Why is he giving interviews? I don't know.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Like everyone who had a part in said scandal that we have just explicated is like, please, please stop talking, please. Why are you talking to the New York Times? Because I think someone made this point on Twitter. I forget who it was, but Trump has not had a great press week, even though he should because of the big beautiful bill and the non stop wins.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

However, because of the Epstein stuff, which we'll talk about later in the week, he has had not a great day and a half, several days of coverage. And what does this do? This just unites all the people of the right again to be like, look at what we were enduring.

[Unknown]

Yep. And he, you know, so many times during the campaign, Biden kept inserting himself into the conversations and making himself the story even, you know, even while he was still running in a negative way. And so this is just a continuation of that. One of the other things they mentioned in the story that we didn't actually get to last week, but Biden's former doctor testified in front of lawmakers or answered questions from lawmakers last week and he pled the Fifth when he was asked whether the President Biden was fit to serve. That's a huge story in and of itself that his doctor is pleading the fifth and not wanting to answer questions about what he knew about his condition at the time.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah, he just like kind of walked out of the gathering, which was, I think, closed press. It was like a, you know, under oath but in a closed setting situation. Yeah. I do think we're in a pickle about how we deal with these issues in the future because the press will only want to use a new rubric with Donald Trump, like, oh, we really got burned by that Biden guy. But we're gonna use this very strict standard now for Donald Trump and Republicans will not accept that. So it's kind of like looking forward. I think the big hack might be just like someone under 70.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Lol. Good luck.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

That's my governing hack, everyone.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that would be nice. I'm not sure we're gonna be counting on that. Although I don't know, the field, the future feel does look more youthful. But I think they're going to sneak in some 80 year olds right at the end next president. 85 year old Bernie Sanders.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Love it, Love it. We're heading there.

[Unknown]

Well, we're going to take a short break and come right back with more normally. We are back with normally. Thank you for sticking around. Graduation rates are up, but SAT scores are down. How does that work?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah, that's a little thing called social promotion.

[Unknown]

Right. So apparently kids are doing worse than ever on the sat, but graduation rates continue to climb. And Americans for School Oversight on X posted that teachers are being told to give 50% even when students skip tests or turn in nothing. Failure rates are suppressed to protect the system, not student learning. This does not seem like a good idea. This seems like letting a bunch of people who are unprepared for a lot of things for higher learning, for life out into the world without the proper preparation.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah, it's a recipe for disaster. Lowering the bar is not wise. One of the things that they discovered in this literacy surge in places like Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee that are doing better than in all demographics versus other states is that one of the things they implemented in those states was to say, if you have not learned the basics of literacy, if you are not reading by third grade, we have to hold you back. We will not be letting you forward, even though you have, if you haven't.

[Unknown]

Hit the goal, it's the way to go. Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And in all those states, everyone freaked out and was like, no, we'll have to hold back so many students. And what happened in reality was that it lit a fire under adults because there was an actual consequences consequence. They were like, oh, crap, we have to spend these years actually teaching them to read. And students no doubt responded to the higher bar as well. And you end up with not that many holdbacks because people were accomplishing the skill. So if you take away that part of the system entirely.

[Unknown]

Yeah, there's no skills. I really do think that people need, like, I mean, I for sure need like deadlines or accountability. I need stuff like that in order to work. Like, I have a substack and I write on it infrequently. I'm trying to do better for people who follow and pay for my substack. Sorry about that.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I feel you.

[Unknown]

But if I don't have a deadline, if I don't have a marker, it's very hard to do. And, you know, on the flip side of this, I have a friend who has a son with special needs, and she wanted him to repeat a grade because she felt he wasn't prepared enough. And they just wanted to keep promoting him. And she wanted him to, you know, stay in the same class, get a real handle on the information, be able to proceed to the next grade, really with confidence. And she had to fight her school system in order to make that happen. And he was clearly not prepared for the next grade. You know, I'm sure there are parents who worry about their kids not being promoted to the next grade, but there's also the parents who think, my kid could use another year of this, and they're not allowed to do that.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Well, and standardized test scores get a bad rap Standardized tests in general get a bad rap. I understand the concerns and some of them are very real, but they also mean something as a gauge. They actually do. And all these colleges that have tried to toss them out have come with, come up with pretty bad results as a, as a result of that decision. I want to note from there's New York Times op ed on standardized testing, which of course was only written from a leftist perspective to say Linda McMahon is going to ruin standardized testing, which they were never big fans of before. But it makes this important point. Standardized testing isn't perfect. And I'm sympathetic to the argument that it can hamper teacher autonomy in the classroom. But there is evidence that without standardized testing, parents have little awareness of their children's deficits. And in part because of grade inflation over the past few decades, test scores have gone down while grades have gone up. The issue which predated the pandemic is known as the honesty gap. I will add that the honesty gap got larger after the pandemic. So my district, because they shut down school for so long, dispensed with their apples to apples stats comparison in a lot of areas because they were like, oh, that's going to look bad for us. And so in a lot of cases, the less standardized testing, the more they're trying to cover up. And covering it up isn't helping anyone.

[Unknown]

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I actually wrote against the gifted and talented test in New York City when my kids were little because I thought it was ridiculous to give a five year old a standardized test. And even though my daughter like aced it, I still thought it was ridiculous. And so I wrote about it and I've completely changed my mind about it, in part because they got rid of the test and they, they started going by like teacher recommendations and that kind of thing, which is so easily played. And the gifted and talented schools are like in steep decline because they got rid of that test. It just standardization makes it fairer. Everything else can be gamed, can be played. You can, you know, ask the teacher to give your kid the recommendation that they need. An interesting point about the results and the failure rates. Ex teacher Frank McCormick, who tweets @cb Harris on X, posted the results that we talk about and noted that when he was a teacher, despite being rated excellent, my principal told me that my failure rate was too high and to fix it if I wanted to come back next year. He was reprimanded for holding students accountable and rewarded for fabricating grades. He writes, I have never been more depressed and demoralized that's the other side of this, is that teachers don't want to be socially promoting these kids. They want them to actually learn. And we're putting everybody in a tough situation with this kind of behavior.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Can I note one quick stat also that is sort of encouraging? That was bouncing around the educational X areas this week, which is that, oh, lo and behold, another one that makes liberals a little uncomfortable. Family structure matters to student achievement.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Who knew that? This is a University of Virginia study called Good Fathers Flourishing Kids which came out just recently, and I'm glad it got quite a bit of attention in those circles on X and not just from right leaning people for this reason. This is in the 74 the research led by my AEI colleague Brad Wilcox and co authored by a diverse team that includes another AEI colleague finds that children in Virginia with actively involved fathers are more likely to earn good grades, less likely to have behavior problems in school, and dramatically less likely to suffer from depression. Specifically, children with disengaged fathers are 68% less likely to get mostly good grades and nearly four times as likely to be diagnosed with depression. These are not trivial effects. And importantly, basically the entire achievement gap on race basis is erased if you put black, white, Hispanic students with two engaged parents together in a cohort. If you compare those, the stability of the family overcomes a race issue every time, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah, there was a popular story maybe like a year and a half ago, two years ago I covered it a lot on the Carol Markowitz Show. But economist Melissa Kearney, who was a left leaning economist, found that basically children raised by married parents have better outcomes across the board. And it wasn't something that she wanted to find and it's what she discovered in her work. And all of her the people she worked with were like, you cannot say this. And once you get to, even if this helps children, you cannot admit the truth. It's a very dangerous place to be.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And that's where a lot of lefty academics get. Just to make my somewhat muddled version of that clearer, this writer writes, if a black or Hispanic student is raised in a religious home with two biological parents, the achievement gap totally disappears even when adjusting for socioeconomic status. I mean, this is powerful stuff because presumably we would all like children to achieve and read and learn as that teacher does. There are a lot of unions who might think different who are trying to cover all this up. Up next, we have some reflections on July 13, 2024 and the assassination attempt on Donald Trump, which weirdly, the media is not Covering a ton. I know. We'll be back on normally. All right, Carol? Well, it has been one year since a seismic event in American politics, in American history. The one year commemorations are not that common. But it is the assassination attempt on one Donald J. Trump when he was at a rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, July 13, 2024. And I just wanted to talk about it a little bit because it's being undercovered, Right.

[Unknown]

It was like a giant story that barely gets any kind of mention at all. Where were you when you heard that?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Oh, I have a very interesting story about that. I was on a plane full of journos.

[Unknown]

Oh.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

On our way to the rnc. And the plane did not have WI fi. We happened to all be on a plane without WI fi. That's crazy. And it's like, everyone's on this plane. BBC, cnn. Like, Tapper's up there, Chuck Todd's over here. Right. I'm way in the back. Probably because I bought my ticket late. Like, I do. I'm way in the back of the plane. And I did. Sorry, TSA or whoever's in charge of this faa. I turned on my phone early to try to catch a signal and see what was okay happening in the world. I didn't. The plane was fine. So I don't think it's a safety issue. I turned it on, caught a signal, and I start getting these texts from people I trust. So it wasn't like a, you know. Yeah, like, this is a made up rumor thing. It was from, like, Guy Benson, who was following us, from my husband, who's following up very specific things. And what happened is, I think I was the first person on the plane to know that this had happened.

[Unknown]

Did you stand up and were like, josephine shot?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I actually thought about doing that. But much like the fear you have when you're breaking something, I was like, what if this turns out to be not what I think it is? And I had no way to back up my information, aside from, like, the two and a half texts I had received. But, yes, I was on that plane. And then once we landed, of course, everybody turns on their phones and it goes like wildfire through the plane. I knew I didn't tell the BBC gal next to me. I was like, hey, you, media. She's like, yeah. And I was like, I think President Trump was shot. And she's like, what? So it goes, like, wild through fire through the plane. And I will say this for the journos, when we exited that plane, it was silent, right? Because everyone was in the Throes of this is actually potentially extremely tragic and awful.

[Unknown]

That's very interesting. Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And I was a little bit proud of them and us in that moment. Obviously, very quickly, it turns into nonsense again.

[Unknown]

Yeah. They didn't really cover themselves in Glory, where some of the headlines were like, donald Trump Falls on stage.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

In that moment, though, on that plane, it was treated as very solemn and grave and very, very serious. Serious.

[Unknown]

I was. I had just woken up in Singapore, and I had gotten a text from our best friends and saying, hey, I know you're away, but someone just took a shot at Donald Trump. And I, like, sat up in bed just like, oh, my God, you know, is he okay? Like, just. I. I feared the worst, obviously. Like, I guess a lot of people would. And the fact that it missed the bullet, missed him by such a tiny amount, by such a tiny measure is really miraculous. And he seems like he has leaned on his faith a little bit since then. And I totally get why he talks about God in a way that he did not before that. And I really do feel like I understand it. I had Selena Zito on the Carol Markowitz show a few months ago, talking about her new book, Butler. We're going to play a little clip. She was there that day. She was right in front of Donald Trump. And this is her describing what happened.

[Selena Zito]

And, you know, if you've never been to a Trump rally, you don't understand. But the relationship between him and the people that are attending, it is very transactional. He feeds off of them. They feed off of him. And this is in a positive way. This is in a very sort of aspirational way. People believe they are part of something bigger than themselves. And Trump intuitively understands that he is as well. He's part of it. He's part of them. It's not just about him. It's about everybody there. So because of that, he never looks away from the crowd. He'll move his. He'll move his body and look at different sides.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Selena Zito]

Like, turn around and look at crowds around.

[Unknown]

Right. It's not like he has notes or anything. Yeah.

[Selena Zito]

So two things happen simultaneously. That never happens. He brings a chart down. I'm like, what is he, Ross Perot? Like, he never has a chart.

[Unknown]

Amazing, huh?

[Selena Zito]

And then he turns away from the.

[Unknown]

Crowd, and he never does that.

[Selena Zito]

And at that moment, I hear, pop, pop, pop, pop. The bullets fly right over. I watch him go down, but he takes himself down. I note that, like, it's really weird. You know how they always say things happen in slow Motion. They absolutely do.

[Unknown]

Really?

[Selena Zito]

I can see him go down. I can see him hold his ear. I see the. The Secret Service go around him.

[Unknown]

You remember?

[Selena Zito]

I. I'm like, four feet away from.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Him at this point, and.

[Unknown]

Is your daughter snapping pictures?

[Selena Zito]

My daughter. Yeah. We're. We don't stop working until the second four bullets go by. And. And Michelle takes us down The. The campaign press guy. He's amazing. He's my hero. He. Michelle Picard. I will love him forever. He was so protective of all of us. And I can. I can hear the whole conversation he is having with the Secret Service and, you know, like, about when to go up. You know that the. The shooter is dead. Like, you can hear them talking. You can hear the radio. I can hear the radios just because of how close I am, and I can. It was a little bit funny. It's funnier now. It was a little bit funny in the moment. I can hear him, like, they want him to get up and want to be up. And he's, like, basically saying, I need to put my damn shoes on.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Selena Zito]

Like, his. Someone had knocked his shoes off. And. And. And I. I hear one agent sigh, like, okay, all right. Like, okay, put your shoes on. Right.

[Unknown]

They get his shoes off. That's so weird.

[Selena Zito]

And then he comes off the stage. He goes right past me. There is an agent that holds a gun right at our heads as. As he's going past. Because they still don't know what.

[Unknown]

Sure. They don't know. Right.

[Selena Zito]

And so I did not go to Bedminster that day.

[Unknown]

No, obviously. Right.

[Selena Zito]

But he calls me the next morning bright and early, and before I could say hello, like, I didn't even get my hello out, he's like, are you okay? Is Shannon and Mike okay? I'm like. And I felt like saying, are you freaking kidding me?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

You.

[Selena Zito]

Dude, you've just been shot.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Maybe focus on yourself. Yeah, I know that clip was a little long, but I felt like it was important to get the kind of story of that day.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I just got the book, and you can see how close they were because this is her daughter's photo of before this happened. Just incredible stuff. And I think his reaction to that was just so genuinely brave and impressive. It really was kind of astounding. I think I had new, different respect for him after this happened.

[Unknown]

Same.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I also would like to add that the Compratore family should stay in our prayers. His widow lost her husband a year ago this week, and he had daughters, and, you know, very sad that that happened on that day. I think we were spared tremendous tragedy, although not all of it tragedy. The way this country would have spun out had something. Had they actually succeeded, had the shooter actually succeeded. I just can't even comprehend.

[Unknown]

I don't know if we would have gotten over it. I really don't. I have to say that the right loves their conspiracies, but the left continues to push the idea that this somehow was faked. Adam Parkomenko, who was a DNC field director in 2016, tweeted, if they could lie about the Epstein list, they would lie about Butler too. Somebody, Telvin Griffin, who is in Hollywood, apparently got an Academy Award nominated film, whatever has a following on X. We're getting closer and closer to the truth that the Butler assassination attempt was fake and staged. Here's the worst part of it all. An innocent man died. They did this because the momentum of the election was strongly in Kamala Harris's favor and they had no game planned for her. Kamala Harris wasn't running yet.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So. And I don't remember the momentum ever being strongly in her favor.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

No, it wasn't. That's just not true.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah. And they, they, they wanted to shift the momentum so they thought they'd take a shot at their own candidate. Like, how does that make sense?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Who would be barely. Who would be barely missed in a headshot by hitting his ear.

[Unknown]

I was gonna say if. Now, now that I shoot guns, I can tell you with some certainty that trying to shoot someone in the ear is not a thing.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And that Trump would be like, sure, I'll sign up for that.

[Unknown]

Yeah, no problem. Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

The shooter, of course, killed on the scene was Thomas Matthew Crooks, a 20 year old. And I would like to know more about him and more about how we're preventing said things for the future. I appreciated the brief moment when everybody was left and right, were together asking questions about the Secret Service and going like, what? What happened here?

[Unknown]

What happened?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

AOC actually had a couple of very good moments asking those questions. And in general, I would just like to see more reflection on this more normal behavior. Yeah. It happened after the Congressional baseball shooting too, where very few people know the date of that shooting. It was June 14, 2017. And the next. First of all, it got like 48 hours of coverage. Maybe, maybe not even that. Like wall to wall coverage. An attempted mass murder of congressional members a year later. There was almost nothing in commemoration.

[Unknown]

Crazy. Yeah. Unbelievable.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

These moments are important.

[Unknown]

We should do better on that. We really should. Well, thanks for joining us on Normally. Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening and when things get weird, act normally.

[Carol Markowitz]

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