Normally Podcast: Supreme Court Showdown: Parental Rights in Education

Summary

Summary of "Normally Podcast: Supreme Court Showdown: Parental Rights in Education"

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show presents a comprehensive and engaging discussion in the episode titled "Normally Podcast: Supreme Court Showdown: Parental Rights in Education," released on April 24, 2025. Hosted by Mary Kathryn and Carol Markowitz, the episode delves into two primary subjects: a landmark Supreme Court case concerning parental rights in education and the ongoing internal conflicts within the Trump administration regarding Pete Hegseth. Additionally, the hosts touch upon the handling of the COVID-19 pandemic and its long-term implications. Below is a detailed summary capturing all key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

---

1. Introduction

The episode begins with Mary Kathryn and Carol Markowitz resuming their "Normally" segment, characterized by "normalish takes for when the news gets weird" (02:29). They briefly mention their previous engagements, including the Ruthless podcast, setting the stage for a deep dive into current and contentious issues.

2. Supreme Court Case: Parental Rights in Education

Background of the Case

Mary Kathryn introduces a significant Supreme Court case involving the Montgomery County School Board's implementation of gender and sexual education starting as early as third grade (03:29). Carol Markowitz adds that Mary Kathryn authored a book, Stolen Youth, which closely examines these issues, bringing valuable insights to the discussion (03:43).

Details on Montgomery County Curriculum

The hosts explain that Montgomery County integrated various means, including storybooks like "Pride Puppy," into the early grades to teach about gender and sexuality. Parents opposed these teachings and sought the right to opt their children out of such instruction. However, the school board denied this option, leading to legal battles (04:24).

Parental Objections and Seeking Opt-Out

Mary Kathryn highlights the diverse coalition of parents, including Muslim, Jewish, and Christian families, united in their objection to the curriculum (04:48). Carol emphasizes that the parents' primary concern was not altering the curriculum but merely opting out their children from specific content (04:48).

Supreme Court's Involvement

The case escalated to the Supreme Court, where Justice Neil Gorsuch questioned the necessity of forcing parents to subject their children to this curriculum. A notable exchange between Justice Gorsuch and the Montgomery County lawyer is highlighted:

• Justice Gorsuch [07:22]: "What age do you in Montgomery county teach students normally about human sexuality class?"
• Montgomery County Lawyer [07:33]: "I think that it begins in either fourth or fifth grade."
• Justice Gorsuch [08:08]: "They're being used in English language instruction at age three, some of them."

These interactions underscore the legal and ethical considerations at play, emphasizing the tension between educational policies and parental rights.

Implications on Book Banning

Mary Kathryn discusses how this case exemplifies broader issues of book banning and censorship. The hosts argue that the government's ability to enforce such curriculum without parental consent sets a concerning precedent (11:04). They critique the portrayal of book banning by media, suggesting that the reality is far more intrusive and direct.

Selected Quotes

• Mary Kathryn [07:22]: "She is a drag queen in the book. There's a piece of a leather garment."
• Carol Markowitz [15:58]: "The era is going to look so dated when we get past it."

3. Prevalence of LGBTQ+ Content in Children's Literature

Parents' Perspectives

Both hosts express concern over the increasing presence of LGBTQ+ themes in children's books. Carol recounts personal experiences of her children receiving multiple copies of books like "Julian is a Mermaid," highlighting the normalization of such content in early education (13:14).

Media and Author Perspectives

Mary Kathryn observes a shift in bookstores from classic children's books to those focused on race and gender identity, indicating a significant cultural change (14:53). They also reference authors like Blake Nelson, who critique the current publishing trends as "anti-Men," suggesting a backlash against perceived liberal narratives (15:13).

4. Endpoint Reactions and Future Implications

Mary Kathryn anticipates a Supreme Court victory for parents, which would uphold their rights to opt-out and challenge the prevailing educational policies (18:26). Carol echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the importance of such rulings for maintaining parental authority in educational matters (18:26).

---

5. Internal Conflicts Within the Trump Administration: The Pete Hegseth Story

Overview of the Dispute

The discussion shifts to internal strife within the Trump administration, centered around Pete Hegseth, the Defense Secretary. Carol introduces the issue by mentioning Dan Caldwell, a senior advisor to Hegseth, who has been placed on administrative leave for leaking information to the media (21:29).

Leaking and Resignations

Carol explains that Caldwell appeared on Tucker Carlson's show to defend Hegseth, asserting that he did not leak classified information. Despite these defenses, Caldwell's actions have deepened mistrust within the administration. Additionally, John Oliot, a Pentagon spokesperson, resigned and publicly criticized Hegseth in Politico (22:00).

Donald Trump Jr.'s Standpoint

Donald Trump Jr. voiced strong support for Hegseth, distancing himself from those he perceives as undermining his father's agenda. He declared Hegseth "officially exiled" from their movement, suggesting a significant rift (22:30).

Foreign Policy Ideology vs. Personal Disputes

Mary Kathryn introduces Eli Lake's analysis, which posits that the conflict may stem from deep-seated foreign policy disagreements, particularly concerning Iran (23:22). Carol adds that Hegseth is seen as a proponent of strong defense policies, while others within the administration may favor diplomatic approaches (24:19).

Quotes and Timestamps

• Carol Markowitz [21:29]: "Dan Caldwell... has been placed on administrative leave for leaking information to the media."
• Mary Kathryn [23:22]: "The battle is at its nastiest inside the Pentagon..."

6. COVID-19 Pandemic Handling and Its Aftermath

Critique of Lockdowns and NPIs

Mary Kathryn and Carol express strong criticism of the COVID-19 pandemic's management, particularly focusing on lockdowns and non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs) like masking and distancing. They argue these measures were ineffective and caused unnecessary economic and social distress (35:34).

Comparative Analysis: Florida vs. California

The hosts compare Florida's and California's approaches to the pandemic, highlighting Florida's lighter restrictions led to quicker economic recovery and lower unemployment rates compared to California's prolonged lockdowns (38:23). They cite specific statistics to support their claims:

• California December 2020 Unemployment: 9.3%
• Florida December 2020 Unemployment: 5.1%
• California 2021 Job Losses: 1.63 million
• Florida 2021 Job Losses: 580k

These figures underscore their argument that Florida's strategies were more effective in mitigating economic fallout (43:25).

Tyler Cowan's Article and Hosts' Response

Mary Kathryn critiques Tyler Cowan's piece titled "Our Elites Don't Deserve this Much Hatred," arguing that it fails to account for the detrimental actions of elites during the pandemic. They contend Cowan overlooks intentional ignorance and deceit by officials, which exacerbated the crisis (36:57).

Freedom vs. Public Health Measures

A central theme in their COVID-19 discussion is the balance between public health measures and personal freedoms. Both hosts advocate for prioritizing individual liberties over restrictive mandates, suggesting that the latter caused more harm than good (36:58).

Selected Quotes

• Mary Kathryn [36:57]: "Freedom itself is worth something."
• Carol Markowitz [42:20]: "We have to get accountability."

---

7. Conclusion

In wrapping up, Mary Kathryn and Carol Markowitz reiterate their main points: the importance of parental rights in education and the need for accountability within government administrations. They express hope for favorable outcomes in the Supreme Court case and emphasize the necessity of learning from past pandemic responses to prevent future crises. The hosts encourage listeners to remain vigilant and proactive in advocating for their rights and freedoms.

---

Notable Quotes

• Mary Kathryn [07:22]: "She is a drag queen in the book. There's a piece of a leather garment."
• Justice Gorsuch [08:55]: "It is an option at the end of the book, correct?"
• Carol Markowitz [15:58]: "The era is going to look so dated when we get past it."
• Mary Kathryn [18:26]: "A big win would be great for parents everywhere."
• Carol Markowitz [21:29]: "Dan Caldwell... has been placed on administrative leave for leaking information to the media."
• Mary Kathryn [36:57]: "Freedom itself is worth something."

---

This episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show offers a thorough examination of critical and timely issues affecting education and political dynamics within the United States. Mary Kathryn and Carol Markowitz provide insightful commentary, backed by personal experiences and data, encouraging listeners to engage thoughtfully with these pressing matters.

Transcript

[Ad]

Ch Ch Chumba Looking for excitement? Chumba Casino is here. Play anytime, Play anywhere. Play on the train, play at the store, Play at home.

[Mary Kathryn]

Play when you're bored.

[Ad]

Play today for your chance to win and get daily bonuses when you log in. So what are you waiting for?

[Carol Markowitz]

Don't delay.

[Ad]

Chumba Casino is free to play.

[Carol Markowitz]

Experience social gameplay like never before.

[Jenny Garth]

Go to Chumba Casino right now to.

[Carol Markowitz]

Play hundreds of games including online slots.

[Jenny Garth]

Bingo, Slingo and more. Live the chumba [e-mail] no purchase necessary.

[Mary Kathryn]

VGW Group void where prohibited by law 21 + terms and conditions for some.

[Thrivent]

Of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent where money means more Connect with.

[Prolon]

[e-mail] busy work weeks and weekends can leave you feeling drained. Prolon's five day Nutrition program works at the cellular level to rejuvenate you with boxes labeled by day so you know exactly what to eat. Developed at USC's Longevity Institute, this science backed program makes your cells believe they are fasting to support fat loss, skin appearance and healthy blood sugar levels. Feel the difference and get real results in just five days. Get 15% off today plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five day program at prolonlife.com iheart that's prolonlife.com iheart it's the big Circle K.

[Ad]

Giveaway where every visit to Circle K is a chance to win $100,000. You heard that right, $100,000. Visit Circle K today for your chance to win. No Purchase necessary. Visit circlek.com for details.

[Cheap Caribbean]

Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal with Cheap Caribbean's Budget Beachfinder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search. You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder. So say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget beach bliss at your fingertips. Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress free vacation planning should be.

[Mary Kathryn]

Hey guys, we are back on normally the show with normalish takes for when the news gets weird.

[Carol Markowitz]

I am Mary Kathryn and I am Carol Markowitz. Hi Mary Kathryn. I feel like it's been a month since I spoke to you.

[Mary Kathryn]

The news cycle never stops, my friend. There's a lot going on. By the way, programming note, if you did not listen to us on the Ruthless podcast, you should. That's so fun. Got to make a guest visit with the fellas, so that was good.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, some of the fellas, you know, comfortably Smug, is afraid. Afraid to face me. So he can't face you. He just can't. I'm joking. Smug and I are friends, but we got a lot of lib jokes on each other. And I've been on Ruthless twice now, and he did not appear for either one of them.

[Mary Kathryn]

Doesn't show.

[Carol Markowitz]

So it's a running joke that he is afraid. Why is he scared? I don't know.

[Mary Kathryn]

I don't know, man. But it was nice to be on with them and to reach some other folks. So should we get straight into the news today?

[Carol Markowitz]

Let's get straight into it.

[Mary Kathryn]

Yeah. We had an important case at the Supreme Court yesterday. Now, this one's been brewing for a while, and you and I have been following it 1. Because your book Stolen Youth covers this subject. Exactly.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right.

[Mary Kathryn]

And your co author, Bethany Mandel, lives in the county where this big case originated. So the Montgomery County School board wanted to have and did inflict upon the parents of Montgomery County a lot of gender and sexual instruction instruction starting as early as three and into the very early grades of elementary school through various means and storybooks and this kind of thing. And the parents in Montgomery county said, hey, we'd love to opt out of this. And Montgomery county was like, no, we take away that option. Is that correct?

[Carol Markowitz]

That is actually exactly what happened. And it's crazy because they're not saying. And, you know, I don't think this should be taught in schools. So that's where I am. But the parents who have a problem with this aren't even saying that. They're just saying, I don't. I don't want my kid being taught this and I want to opt them out. And that should be a fairly easy call, right?

[Mary Kathryn]

And yet here we are at the Supreme Court, and it's worth noting that the plaintiff in this case is a Muslim family. There are many religious Jewish families in this area, as well as Christians, of course. And it's not obviously just religious families that have objections to this kind of instruction, but it is an interesting alliance of all three of the major religions in Montgomery.

[Carol Markowitz]

You know, I would just guess all the minor ones are also against teaching porn to kids. I Don't know.

[Mary Kathryn]

Yes. In the. In the very liberal county of Montgomery county, these three groups nonetheless come together and say, this is our line, man. So the school board says, no, you can't opt out. And what was hilarious to me is once this gets to the Supreme Court and the school board's lawyer is arguing with one of the justices, and one of the justices says, like, well, like, why couldn't you just do an opt out? There's opt outs for all sorts of things for parents. And the. The lawyer's basically like, well, so many people opted out that it really became a problem. So is it the parents that are the problem or is it the curriculum that is the problem?

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right. And Bethany points out that Montgomery County Public schools must have spent about $2 million to get this argument about forcing families to read these books that are counter to their religious beliefs. As Bethany points out to scotus, that is.

[Mary Kathryn]

Congrats, guys.

[Carol Markowitz]

That should have been spelled elsewhere.

[Mary Kathryn]

Yeah, well. And it strikes me that, you know, again, you'll see it framed in a lot of media as, oh, parents want to make decisions about the curriculum. These parents did not wish to change the curriculum. Like some of them might have wished on the margins to change the curriculum if they had their druthers. But their request is simply, can we just pull our kids out of this part of instruction? And there's this telling. It's a little long, it's two minutes. But I want you to listen to the Montgomery county lawyer speak to Justice Gorsuch about one of the books that they introduced as early as 3 years old. And just think about the fact that parents have to bring this to the Supreme Court to be adjudicated. Here is Justice Gorsuchs talking to the school board's lawyer.

[Justice Gorsuch]

What age do you in Montgomery county teach students normally about human sexuality?

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

I think that it begins in either fourth or fifth grade.

[Justice Gorsuch]

The human sexuality class.

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

The family life and human sexuality curriculum. Okay. I'm not entirely sure.

[Justice Gorsuch]

Starts in fourth or fifth grade, I think. Is there anything you can point us to in the record on that?

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

I don't think so.

[Justice Gorsuch]

Okay. And second, these books are being used in English class.

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

The division between English class and other things in a second grade classroom doesn't really exist. You're sort of in a room with.

[Justice Gorsuch]

A teacher, and sometimes I appreciate that. I went to second grade, too. But it's part of the English curriculum that these books are being used in. I thought that was.

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

Yeah, I'm not fighting the premise. I'm just saying it's not the math class.

[Justice Gorsuch]

It's not the human sexuality class.

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

It is certainly not the human sexuality class. I'm just sort of fighting the premise that there's a neat dissonance.

[Carol Markowitz]

Okay.

[Justice Gorsuch]

And they're being used in. In English language instruction at age three, some of them.

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

So Pride Puppy was the book that was used for the pre kindergarten curriculum. That's no longer in the curriculum.

[Justice Gorsuch]

That's the one where they are supposed to look for the leather and things and bondage, things like that.

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

It's not bondage. It's a woman and a leather sex worker.

[Justice Gorsuch]

Right?

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

No, no, that's not correct. No.

[Justice Gorsuch]

My gosh. I, I read it.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's a drag queen.

[Justice Gorsuch]

Drag queen and drag queen.

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

The leather that they're pointing to is a woman in a leather jacket. And one of the words is drag queen in the surface.

[Justice Gorsuch]

And they're supposed to look for those.

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

It is an option at the end of the book, correct?

[Justice Gorsuch]

Yeah. Okay. And you've included these in the English language curriculum rather than the human sexuality curriculum to influence students. Is that fair? That's what the district court found.

[Montgomery County Lawyer]

I think to the extent the district court found that it was to influence. It was to influence them towards civility, the natural consequence of being exposed, whatever. But to influence them in the manner that I just mentioned.

[Mary Kathryn]

Yes, whatever. I enjoy that. Whatever. There's a couple things happening here. One Gorsuch is pointing out, you're introducing this to three year olds because you didn't put it in the human sexuality, which starts much later. You smuggled it in to 3 year olds in pre K under the English guidelines. And then he goes on to describe some of the things that are in this book. And he, he does get it slightly wrong that this is not a sex worker. There is a drag queen in the book. There is a piece of. There is a leather garment to which students are supposed to point at some point. And it is just. It's like a lady wearing a leather jacket. It's not chaps.

[Carol Markowitz]

But is it a drag queen wearing a leather jacket?

[Mary Kathryn]

Possibly. Everyone is of confusing and uncertain gender identification in this book. But again, the idea and pride policy is pride. And the district has also admitted in lower courts that the point of introducing this was to influence children. That was the point of having this book. Right. This inclusive book, quote unquote, was to influence children in a direction. By the way, the parents have lost at the lower courts because sanity could not be understood there. And I'm just trying to imagine, like my parents in the 80s having to go to the Supreme Court to say, like, maybe a book with a drag queen in it should not be presented to three year olds. That's the conversation we must have. That is the. Those are the scraps of sanity that Montgomery county parents must go to the mats for.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. It's crazy because when you tell this story to people, I think just the normies listening and the normies who we love are, are like, this can't be happening. This can't be happening. But this is at the Supreme Court, and it is happening. And I have to tell you also that one of the kind of scarier things over the last few years was that the other side did such a great job of portraying this kind of thing. Book banning. So book banning, if you don't want Pride puppy, read to your three year old.

[Mary Kathryn]

Three year old, right.

[Carol Markowitz]

That is an example of book banning by these people. So, and I have seen, you know, it's been polled, this banning, banning, quote, unquote, these kinds of books did not poll well. It's very interesting that they actually got this to be a problem, that taking these kinds of books out of schools became a problem and an issue. But when you hear what's in the books, it really changes people's minds.

[Mary Kathryn]

Well, and so one of the things that tripped up the lawyer in this case for the school board is that the justices had read these books, they had seen what was in them. And this is a straw man that the left often uses, particularly at high school and middle school levels, where they're like, this is just a graphic novel. And then you actually see some of the graphic novel or the parents, those. One of my favorite moves, the parents will read the graphic novel at a school board meeting, and the school board will be like, you can't say that at our meeting. And they're like, well, that sort of proves my point. Right? So some of the titles of these books for very, very young kids, again, Born Ready, this True story of a boy named Penelope Rainbow, Revolutionaries. 50 LGBTQ people who made history. And suddenly Montgomery county is faced with a very diverse crowd of objectors to these titles. And they were sort of like, wait, wait, wait, we're good libs. Why? Why are the ethnic minorities in our district upset about this? And that's because they're often more normal than the libs. The white libs are not the normal ones.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? So I. I've told this story on here before, but I moved to Florida from a very white, liberal neighborhood of Park Slope. My kids were given books to take home from their school so often and it was always on a trans topic. We have like five copies. I only have three kids. We have five copies of Julian is a Mermaid, which is about a little boy who wants to be a girl and et cetera. It's crazy how openly this is pushed in some areas. And the fact that they're getting pushed back and that this has gone all the way to the Supreme Court. I love that this is going to get attention to this because I think people just to don't understand how prevalent this is.

[Mary Kathryn]

Well, and you know, I'm a person who. Look, if my kids came across Pride Puppy, I'm not going to be like, oh no, right. Oh yeah, shield their eyes, whatever. I do think it's weird if you want to be pushing that at three to my child, I get to make those decisions. And also the prevalence is what you're talking about where I mean, it's changed a bit in the vibe shift. We used to go to Barnes and Noble or any bookstore actually to illustrate this. I went to a bookstore in Pennsylvania and I saw a children's display that had all, I think almost exclusively non woke titles. And I don't mean anti woke titles, I just mean classic children's books. Things that are stories about children that are not trans. Stories about children that are not race related. Like it. If you go to a Barnes and Noble, that's almost exclusively what you see or was up until like a year and a half ago.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn]

And so the prevalence is weird where what you're being offered and what you're being pushed is almost exclusively this stuff. And every time I read a novel for my kids that's come out in the last five years, I'm like, just brace for it. Like whatever it is, it's coming, right? It's coming. They can't do it without that.

[Carol Markowitz]

I think we're gonna look back at this era and see how insane it was. It does not. It's not just children's books either. One of my favorite fiction writers is a guy named Blake Nelson. He wrote a lot of 90s books, like Girl, it was made into a movie. He had this piece on his substack the other day where he was talking about how every book he picks up by a female writer is anti Men. And he's like, I just don't want to read this anymore. And. And he's, you know, a left of center guy who would. Is actively seeking out female writers to read and is just like, I don't want to read about how I'm T.R. and I think this whole era is going to look so dated when we get past it. If we get past it.

[Mary Kathryn]

Well, and this is one of those things too, where Greg Lukianoff calls it the gauntlet of conformity, where in order to get a book published, as a woman writer, let's say, if that's not in your book, you ain't getting to the next level of the process. That thing's not getting published, and it will take a couple of years for that to work itself out of the system. Unless, like, you're you and me and you can maybe get an explicitly political.

[Carol Markowitz]

Book published or a conservative publisher specifically. Yeah. But it's sad that it has to come to that. And you know, Mary Margaret, I forgot her last name. From Daily Wire. All in. Right. From Daily Wire. Somebody called her a MAGA writer or a MAGA journalist the other day. She reports from the White House briefing room. And her comment was, if I'm MAGA reporter, who are. What are you guys, Biden reporters.

[Mary Kathryn]

Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

So I think that when we say, like, oh, only conservative publishers would publish this kind of book, who are the other publishers? You know, they're all political leftist publishers, and they kind of need to be ascribed like.

[Mary Kathryn]

Well, it sounded like the justices were friendly to the argument of the parents in this case. To me, it makes absolute sense that they should just have an option to not do this kind of content. And one of the things I noted that I think is such a huge difference between my childhood and the way I'm raising my kids. I was raised in a liberal area. My kids are raised in a liberal area. In order for me to get them in just neutral activities almost. They're almost exclusively religious activities.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn]

Because explicitly religious is normal now, as opposed to secular, which used to be normal and now has become liberal religious.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. It's so crazy. Ugh. This is really bane of my existence because I'm not religious and this, I mean. Or not observant in Jewish terms. Yes. Yeah. It's really tough.

[Mary Kathryn]

Well, that's what I was saying. Like, even if you're not particularly religious, if you want your kid in a basically normal craft group or scouting group, like, you just pick the one that's sort of religious. And they might just be like a normal 80s group. That's my. This is my tactic. This is how I go about it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. How far we've come, I think this is going to be 90 at the Supreme Court. And if it's not, I'm going to be sort surprised and appalled.

[Mary Kathryn]

So a big win would be great for parents everywhere. And a nice rebuke to people who have gotten us to the point where you have to go to the Supreme Court to say, can I please opt my kid out of pride puppy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn]

And they wonder why I'm not in the public schools era now. Right?

[Carol Markowitz]

We'll be right back on normally.

[Mary Kathryn]

Hello darlings. Pack your suitcase for a new season of the Hulu original reality series Vanderpump Villa.

[Carol Markowitz]

Led do this. Ciao. It's Stassi.

[Thrivent]

Of course.

[Carol Markowitz]

Lisa brought in her favorite to be resident chaperone of the castle. Stassi is an icon.

[Mary Kathryn]

She's my eyes and ears.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love this.

[Mary Kathryn]

Get ready for the luxury and drama that awaits us in Italy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Cheers to all the toxic couples in the castle. Season 2 of Vanderpump Villa is now streaming on Hulu.

[Mary Kathryn]

Clorox Saintiva smells like grapefruit, cleans like Clorox, and feels like yay. Okay, we could be here all day.

[Thrivent]

Try Clorox Scentiva for a trusted clean with long lasting freshness. Also available in lavender and coconut. Use as directed. For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent where money means more. Connect with [e-mail] busy work weeks and.

[Prolon]

Weekends can leave you feeling drained. Prolon's five day nutrition program works at the cellular level to rejuvenate you with boxes labeled by day so you know exactly what to eat. Developed at USC's Longevity Institute, this science backed program makes your cells believe they are fasting to support fat loss, skin appearance and healthy blood sugar levels. Feel the difference and get real results in just five days. Get 15% off today plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five day program at prolonlife.com iheartra that's prolonlife.com iheart get ready for the biggest.

[Ad]

Contest of the year. It's the big Circle K giveaway where you'll have five chances to win $100,000. So tell your GPS, tell your passenger princess, tell the bobblehead on your dash. It's time to visit Circle K. Every visit is a chance to win one of five one hundred thousand dollar grand prizes. The Big Circle K Giveaway Visit Visit Circle K today and download the Circle K app. No purchase necessary. US residents 18/ ends May 6, 2025. For official rules, visit circlek.com Big-Giveaway Our.

[Carol Markowitz]

Next topic is the Pete Hegseth story, which is continuing to be an ongoing story. I went pretty hard to support Pete before he was nominated or when he was nominated, and now I feel very defensive of him in this position. I think that he has had some missteps. I can say that the Signal Group chat was a moment of, you know, where I thought things were going amazing for him. But it does seem like the knives are out for him beyond any of that. So let's get into it. Dan Caldwell, he was a senior advisor to Hegseth, has been placed on administrative leave for leaking information to the media. And he went on Tucker Carlson and he said that none of that, you know, the language that they used was he didn't leak classified information, which left a lot of room to say he did leak information. I'm sorry, good riddance. Good people who leak information to the media should be kicked out. And I think that some of what is going on with Pete Hegseth is very inside baseball. We'll try to get into it here. We'll try to keep it as normie as possible. But John Oliot resigned last week as a Pentagon spokesperson and he wrote an article in Politico trashing Hegseth. Then Donald Trump Jr. Took to X and said, I've been hearing for years that he works his ass off to subvert my father's agenda. That ends today. He's officially exiled from our movement. I do think that some of this really is a split on the right. On policy, yeah, on policy, yeah.

[Mary Kathryn]

So Eli Lake is always interesting to read on this stuff because he has a lot of defense contacts and foreign policy contacts. So he wrote in the Free Press and he just gives a nice like 3 paragraph outlay of like what kind of what the lay of the land is here. It's been nearly 100 days into the Trump presidency and his administration appears bitterly divided over what to do about Iran. Secretary of State was not present for the negotiations between the mullahs, diplomats and Trump's personal friend and special envoy, Steve Witkoff maga. World influencers have staked out opposing positions on whether to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities or go for an Obama style deal. The battle is at its nastiest inside the Pentagon where the restrainer wing of the administration and the more hawkish Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, with whom we both I think agree on this are now in direct bureaucratic conflict. On Tuesday, Hegseth told Fox News that three recently fired senior officials are now attempting to leak and sabotage the president's agenda. But is this civil war about foreign policy ideology, or is it about a breach in trust between a cabinet secretary and his closest advisors? Either way, a deep friendship has been torn asunder. So the question is, is the underlying thing the foreign policy differences?

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn]

Or is it a personality dispute that is being sort of using the foreign policy dispute as its cover and people are sort of knifing, as they sometimes do in Washington. It is interesting because Caldwell and several of these other folks have been very close allies of Hegseth for a long time. This guy's not new to the crew. Right, Right. And so that part is concerning and Olyat and I don't know what the real deal is on his motivations, but his piece in Politico also puts in there kind of some pretty flowerly language about the things they were able to accomplish with Hegseth at Defense and the things that he was proud of and how he wants this administration to work. So I'm a little confused about what's happening here.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, you know, I try not to be the. When you have a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. But a lot of this to me is also tied into kind of the growing antisemitism on the Right. And I have been foolishly on the for you tab on X, which has really fallen off recently. Actually, a lot of people have mentioned it. Like, it was really good for a minute there. And now it's like, I actually don't want to see any of these people. They're not hit for me.

[Mary Kathryn]

Mine's real hit and miss. I get a. I get a. This is a weird thing, but I get a lot of Hailey Bieber news in my. For you.

[Carol Markowitz]

I actually would prefer that to what.

[Mary Kathryn]

I don't understand how it happened. Like, I just clicked on one too many Selena and Haley conspiracy theories, and here I am. So.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn]

And aside.

[Carol Markowitz]

So I'll get like an account like patriot19742 and they'll be spitting absolute fire about, like, somebody in the administration. And I'm not talking about, like, Marco Rubio or even like Pam Bondi, but sort of like the real deal MAGA members like Pete Hegseth, Dongino, Cash Patel. And then I'll click over to the page and most of the tweets are, cash Patel is a sellout. And then the next tweet will almost always be and the Jews did 9 11. And so I feel like there is this. And you know, it's a through line kind of from this Jew hatred to trying to bring down the Trump administration. I don't know if these accounts are American or foreign op. It obviously could be very much a foreign op, but there's absolutely an online movement to seem like the right is turning on the Trump administration and it's driven by this conspiratorial, antisemitic bunch. And to see these people, you know, again, they're anonymous on X, but then watch their kind of insanity play out in real time elsewhere is concerning.

[Mary Kathryn]

Yeah, I don't love the Caldwell to Tucker pipeline. Right. As soon as you leave, you go straight there.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, the question is, who was Caldwell leaking to? And the answer is maybe the guy who tweeted about the I not going to war with Iran at a really random time in the last few weeks.

[Mary Kathryn]

So. Well, and he says he didn't, like you said. He says he doesn't leak classified info. We. We have yet to see if he's under investigation. It does. I mean, not to be a SAP, but it does make me a little sad that this seems like several major longtime friendships have fallen apart here. And. And the thing for Hegseth, look, I don't think Trump is getting rid of him because I think Trump is. Was invested him in him and liked the way that he fought and. And got over the Hill in his confirmation hearings. Hegseth was treated unfairly during the investigations of his personal life and past during his confirmation hearings. And he was right to fight back. And I think that's one of the reasons he did get confirmed.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn]

The signal stuff is boneheaded and they need to. This is what we said after the original signal story broke.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn]

What are you doing to make sure that none of this happens again?

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn]

And you have a story of another Signal chat that existed. Right. So whatever that is, maybe that one.

[Carol Markowitz]

Is kind of unnamed sources and we don't really know. But the first one was really bad, so, you know, we're not.

[Mary Kathryn]

So whatever.

[Carol Markowitz]

Even if the second one doesn't exist, the first one was no good.

[Mary Kathryn]

Yes. Can we just nip that in the bud, make sure that we're taking care of that? And then I do think from my hesitation such that it was on Hegseth was about management. And if this is the drama that has fallen out.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn]

Part of his job is to manage this so that you do not have this drama that ends up spilling over and perhaps hurting the administration's goals. Although I'm not sure what the administration's goals are either, because there is a lot of talk about some deal with Iran. And I'm like, why would we.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, can we not deal with Iran.

[Mary Kathryn]

Which is the Obama deal that you turned.

[Carol Markowitz]

You know, you got rid of so much that. Yeah. And I want to just say, unequivocally, I oppose war with Iran. I feel like the options presented to us always are we need to make a deal with Iran like Obama did, or we go to war. I feel like there's some other things in between there that we can potentially work out. And a lot of this, again, to bring it back to Israel is us giving Israel permission to do what they need to do to keep themselves safe and sort of keep Iran contained.

[Mary Kathryn]

When, by the way, Iran is basically naked before the world because many of their defenses have been already taken out. Yeah, that's part of it, too. There's a time crunch here before they rebuild their defenses. You could have a clearer shot.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes. And of course, there was the night where the missiles took, like, 10 hours to get to Israel, and everyone just, like, partied in Israel and then went to the bunkers because they were like, the missiles aren't even here.

[Mary Kathryn]

I guess they'll get here.

[Carol Markowitz]

Set an alarm, right?

[Mary Kathryn]

Set an alarm.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. John Andrasik from five for Fighting actually had a concert that night, and he said that everybody was like, we have reservations to a restaurant. So we're going, we're going, and then we'll be at the bunker when they get closer. Anyway, Trump defended Hegseth. He said, ask the Houthis how he's doing. And you and I have talked about how we saw Hegseth as a magnet for young men to rejoin the military. I can tell you, as of last week, the army has enlisted 51,837 recruits, or 85% of its goal for 2025, which is 61,000. They enlisted nearly 350 soldiers every day in December 2024. It was the most productive December for the military branch in 15 years. I believe in Pete Hegseth. I hope he holds on, and I hope that this is a split that is contained in this administration.

[Mary Kathryn]

Yeah, I'm with you. And I'm with them on, like, one. I want the administration to succeed.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn]

Not in a jcpoa. When Obama. Oh, yeah, that talk is making me nervous. But yes. And such that it will succeed. They need somebody who is, you know, backed by good people and keeping those people within the circle.

[Carol Markowitz]

We're going to take a Short break and come right back with Normaleee.

[Mary Kathryn]

Hello, darlings. Pack your suitcase for a new season of the Hulu original reality series Vanderpump Villa.

[Carol Markowitz]

Let's do this. Ciao. It's Stassi. Of course. Lisa brought in her favorite to be resident chaperone of the castle. DY is an icon.

[Mary Kathryn]

She's my eyes and ears.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love this.

[Mary Kathryn]

Get ready for the luxury and drama that awaits us in Italy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Cheers to all the toxic couples in the castle. Season 2 of Vanderpump Villa is now streaming on Hulu.

[Mary Kathryn]

Clorox. Santa smells like grapefruit, cleans like Clorox, and feels like yay. Okay, we could be here all day.

[Thrivent]

Try Clorox Scentiva for a trusted clean with long lasting freshness. Also available in lavender and coconut. Use as directed. For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves. Loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent, where money means more. Connect with [e-mail] it's the big Circle.

[Ad]

K giveaway where every four visits you'll unlock a reward. Come in for fuel, snacks, meal deals, anything. Get a head start on your reward. Visit Circle K today. No purchase necessary. Visit circlek.com for details.

[Carol Markowitz]

This is what you do when you have high standards and fancy all the fancy things like a Dior saddlebag or that diamond tennis bracelet, you go to ebay. There you'll find new loves that will never disappoint. Expertly authenticated. Whether it's that vintage pearl necklace or brand new ruby earrings, a Prada crossbody bag, or classic watches like that Rolex oyster or that Cartier tank. On ebay, there are no limits to your high standards. Yeah, ebay. The place for new pre loved, vintage and rare fashion. Ebay, things people love.

[Mary Kathryn]

Shall we move on to still mad bro?

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, you still mad, bro? I am like newly mad, bro. Why? Why do they keep making me mad, bro? Yeah, go ahead.

[Mary Kathryn]

I'm about to get really mad because I just got David Zweig's book in the mail, which is an abundance of caution, American schools, the virus, and a story of bad decisions. And I would have even just added a very bad decision in there.

[Carol Markowitz]

Super bad decision.

[Mary Kathryn]

I keep saying I'm looking forward to reading this book, but am I? Because I'm gonna Be livid for like three days.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, you're gonna have to relive all of that. But again, these people are making us relive it anyway, so we may as well get mad. And that's it.

[Mary Kathryn]

Be righteous.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right. So Claire Lehman, she is the founder and editor of Quillet. She was a Covid zealot. She tweeted really crazy things at the time. She lives in Australia. Australia went absolutely bananas. They locked down in a really serious way for a very long time. I met a woman in Florida who moved here from Australia. And her talking about it, she just broke into tears, like it a trying time. So Claire tweeted out a Tyler Cohen article. We'll get to that in a second in the free press. But she said her tweet was lab leak. Possible but not proven. No evidence of international collusion with China. NPIs, which means non pharmaceutical interventions.

[Mary Kathryn]

Masking, distancing.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. Showed measurable effectiveness. Vaccine messaging. Optimistic claims do not equal deliberate lies. And obvious hyperbole does not make for a compelling argument. And I was like, I am sending this to Mary Kathryn Ham because we are talking about this tomorrow.

[Mary Kathryn]

Yeah. It's wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

[Carol Markowitz]

The NPI is more than anything else. I know everybody has their own kind of bugaboos about this kind of thing. I know for some people it's vaccine messaging. For me, it's the non pharmaceutical interventions worked. No, they didn't. No, they didn't. And masking did not work. Distancing did not work. None of it worked. And I need people to accept that and internalize it, because should we have Covid 2029, I need people to not make the same mistakes again. So it's really important to continue to say these things didn't work and we can't do them again. Lockdowns did not work at all. And that's where I am on this. I am still mad, bro.

[Mary Kathryn]

Yeah, I'm still mad, bro. And one of the things I'm mad about, and we can get to the Tyler Cowan piece, is that so few who continue to say these things really weren't so bad will contend with the fact that freedom itself is worth something.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn]

That what Desantis did, which was in general to default to the side of freedom, as much freedom as is possible in an emergency situation for as many people as possible while trying to do responsible things. That. That in and of itself is much closer to pandemic plans of the past to actual plans that Fauci tossed out the window to the American Spirit to our actual constitution. There's Gibson. That pesky constitution. No one gives value to that part of it. Like, they're just like, I mean, yes, we destroyed your lives, but, like, not as bad as you think we did.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? Like, we had to do it. We didn't know. The we didn't know really bothers me. And you bring up DeSantis, but, you know, it's interesting because he had taken some precautions, and I think Florida had taken some precautions. But as they got new information and realized that these precautions weren't working, they abandoned those precautions. So I lived in Florida for, we call it our Florida test run for about five and a half months in 2021, January to middle of May, 2021. People were masking. My kids were masked in public school. We were kind of the co. I mean, we were very loose for New York, but we were kind of tight for Florida.

[Mary Kathryn]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

We looked around crowded restaurants, and we're like, these people are gonna die. You know? You know, I, I.

[Mary Kathryn]

Culture shock.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right, I understand. You know, I, I, I often tell the story of my friend John Curdillo. I walked into a restaurant, and he was sitting at the bar. And that was something that wouldn't happen in New York, I think, for another year plus. And I was, like, sitting at a bar during this crazy time. I don't know. So I get that people were afraid. I get that people didn't know. I think that all of that needs to be taken into consideration. But, but we figured it out, and the people who maintained the things that we knew didn't work for a very long time. They should be held accountable. They absolutely knew at the time that you and I knew.

[Mary Kathryn]

This is the part, too, is that your intentional ignorance of the facts. A lot of people were intentionally ignorant on school openings because to them, it was the correct left coded vision to be out of school. And this is what I call icky facts. They didn't want to know. They didn't want to know icky facts because those icky facts were right coded. And to know those or to certainly to profess them would have made you icky and right coded. This is the paragraph of the Tyler Cowan Free Press piece that a lot of people take issue with and something that I think he's not wrestling with, which is like, there was not only willful ignorance, but there was also lying. There was also very obvious confessed lying that we have in emails and testimony. Like, we know people were lying. He says a lot of people do not want to admit it, but when it comes to the COVID 19 pandemic. The elites, by and large, actually got a lot right. Most importantly, the people who got vaccinated fared much better than the people who did not. We also got a vaccine in record time. Against most expectations, Operation Warp Speed was a success. Long Covid did turn out to be a real thing. This one gets me because he's an economist. Low personal mobility levels meant that often lockdowns were not the real issue. Most of that economic activity was going away. In any case, most states should have ended lockdown sooner, but they mattered less than many critics have suggested. Furthermore, in contrast to what many were predicting, these restrictions on our liberty proved entirely temporary. Not. That's not necessarily true. And also, your freedom matters during the time that it was restricted.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, back to the whole freedom mattering. But also people suffered. I knew gym owners, for example, in New Jersey, who. They suffered. They didn't sleep at night. They worried about their business, they worried about their employees. I took my middle son to the barber the other day in Florida, and the guy had moved to Florida during COVID and he was still very enraged about the fact that he was forced to shut down. And his comment was, you know, liquor stores were open, Home Depot was open, all the big businesses were open. I had to be closed. And he and I reminisced about how Governor Andrew Cuomo, you know, would go on TV and be very solemn and talk about how great a job he was doing, but he would show up with a fresh haircut every few days. Like, where is he getting his hair cut?

[Mary Kathryn]

Right, right, of course. No, they all were full of it. That was my favorite thing during the pandemic. I was just tweeting these stories where Nancy Pelosi gets hair done and be like, we're all in this together. Asterisk. It's just an asterisk because it's not all of us together. So Cowan's piece is called Our Elites Don't Deserve this Much Hatred. And he has some points that are worth considering, which is like. But I think he's like, he's just sort of mashing it all together and he's ignoring the bad behavior of the elites. He says a truly elite method is based in science, open ended inquiry, and truth seeking behavior. That's true. And I love to sniff those people out. And that's what I did during COVID and found that they were not the people who had been crowned elite. The people who were critical thinkers were often not those who were blessed to give the message.

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly.

[Mary Kathryn]

And sanctioned to give the message. Furthermore, I just looked it up because the point about the economic activity bothered me. Louisiana Times, which is of course friendly to California's approach, compared California and Florida similar populations, although Florida's older, and unemployment in December 2020 in California. So that his hypothesis is that without the lockdowns, you were going to lose this economic activity anyway. So let's do harsh lockdown versus not lockdown. California December 2020, 9.3% unemployment. Florida 5.1. By February, Florida's was down to that's 2021, 3.3. And California's still hanging out around 5 because they had slowly opened back up. Florida retained its economy from parks and amusement rides and all that, the Disney stuff. California did not. Jobs lost. California 1.63 million. Florida 580k.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's just not almost three times less.

[Mary Kathryn]

Almost three times more in California.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. And there's something to be said for all of that and for the people who were losing those jobs. And I called them the pajama class. Some people say the laptop class. And I admit I am part of that class. I do stay in my pajamas and work on my laptop. That's me. But the thing is that those people didn't have to worry about losing their jobs. And I've met and I know so many people that did have to worry about it. The lockdowns didn't help. They did not help prevent, spread. And that is kind of the end game here, I would think. So don't tell me now in 2025 that they worked or that some part of it worked. And you know, I tweeted out that article and I said it's now impossible to find anyone who supported school closures during COVID Like find someone. Find someone who's like, yeah, that was the right thing to do. It seems like everyone wanted schools open. No one called me a teacher killer. Randi Weingarten herself fought to open schools, but who was she fighting? You know, so strange.

[Mary Kathryn]

Actually, the Randy Weingarten lie is so blatant because Randy Weingarten backed her unions suing Florida and Ron DeSantis to keep schools closed. I mean, you were literally on the other side of legal action to make this happen. I'm gonna read one more from the Cowan piece to tick you off. One of the reasons it ticks me off is cause I think of him as like a libertarian ish. Economist. Right. So it seems like maybe he should have a more. A little more criticism for these things. Not reopening the schools was a Big mistake. And meant a lot of lost learning. But plenty of elites protested at the time.

[Carol Markowitz]

Come on, where were these elites?

[Mary Kathryn]

Which ones, Right?

[Carol Markowitz]

I mean, which ones does he mean Us? Are we elites?

[Mary Kathryn]

Maybe it's us. No, but this is a perfect example of where, like, yes, there was a class of elites that was conformist and cowardly, right? Those were the blessed, sanctioned elites. And then there were the David Zweigs of the world who did the real work and who were crapped on for it, frankly, aggressively. And now I'm gonna read this book and find all the elites that protested at the time.

[Carol Markowitz]

I can't wait to hear who those elites were. Let us know if we are mentioned, because.

[Mary Kathryn]

We'Re not.

[Carol Markowitz]

Carol, I know this account on X responded to the Claire Lehman tweet about. About the, you know, schools and all of that when she linked to the Tyler Cowan piece. Alex Joffe is the account and he says children who went to Zoom School would agree if they could actually read.

[Mary Kathryn]

Yeah, we were really mad, bro. Today.

[Carol Markowitz]

We're still mad, bro. We could do. I mean, we could just keep going on this forever. This. I need accountability. And we're not only moving away from accountability. We seem to be moving towards. They all did the right thing. Everybody acted correctly. Keys closed.

[Mary Kathryn]

And just on 60 Minutes this week, there was a scientist talking about the next virus that's gonna make Covid look like a walk in the park. And I'm like, you know what? You know what, girl?

[Carol Markowitz]

I can't live with this.

[Mary Kathryn]

I'm a no.

[Carol Markowitz]

I'm a no. Yeah, I'll just stay in Florida and hope for the best.

[Mary Kathryn]

Actually stick with Desantis.

[Carol Markowitz]

Let's hang on to him. Thanks for joining us on Normally. Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays. Thursdays. And you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

[Thrivent]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves. Loved ones, neighbors, the community we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent, where money means more. Connect with [e-mail].

[Mary Kathryn]

Cloroxentiva smells like grapefruit, cleans like Clorox, and feels like yay. Okay, we could be here all day.

[Thrivent]

Try Clorox Sentiva for a trusted clean with long lasting freshness. Also available in lavender and coconut. Use as directed.

[Ad]

It's the big Circle K giveaway where every visit to Circle K is a chance to win $100,000. You heard that right, $100,000. Visit Circle K today for your chance to win. No Purchase necessary. Visit circlek.com for details.

[Cheap Caribbean]

Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal with Cheap Caribbean's Budget Beach Finder. You can search every destination and every date all in one search. You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder. So say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hop hopping and hello to Budget beach bliss at your fingertips. Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress free vacation planning should be.

[Jenny Garth]

This is Jenny Garth from 9021 OMG. Aging is a natural process as we all know and we at the deep dive we embrace it. But I will tell you one thing about aging that I don't care for. It's the symptoms that stem from changing hormones, especially as you get closer to perimenopause and menopause. That's why, listeners, I want to tell you about Happy Mammoth's Hormone Harmony. It's all over social media. Happy Mammoth, the company that created Hormone Harmony, uses science backed ingredients that have been proven to work for women. Hormone Harmony is perfect for those menopause symptoms that put a woman's life on hold. Hot flashes, night sweats, racing thoughts, low moods, poor sleep gas, no desire to be in bed next to someone, if you know what I mean. Yeah, Hormone Harmony can help with all of these things. I've noticed a little extra pep in my step since I started taking the Hormone Harmony supplement and I love feeling more energetic. For a limited time. You can get 15% off on your entire first order@happy mammoth.com just use the code Garth at checkout.