Normally Podcast: Taylor Lorenz Is At It Again...

Summary

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Normally Podcast: Taylor Lorenz Is At It Again...

Release Date: April 15, 2025

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Introduction: Navigating Media and Personal Challenges

The episode kicks off with hosts Mary Kathryn Ham and Carol Markowitz sharing a personal anecdote about dealing with an unexpected spider in Mary’s home. This light-hearted exchange sets a relatable tone before delving into more pressing societal issues.

Mary Kathryn Ham [02:42]:
"We are back on Normally, the show with normalish takes for when the news gets weird."

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Media Representation and Taylor Lorenz's Controversial Interview

A significant portion of the discussion centers around journalist Taylor Lorenz and her recent interview with CNN correspondent Donnie O'Sullivan. The hosts critique Lorenz for seemingly idolizing Luigi Mengione, a man convicted of murdering a healthcare executive, and express concern over how media personalities may inadvertently glamorize violent actions.

Carol Markowitz [05:24]:
"Kayla Lorenz, who was a reporter at the New York Times and then at the Washington Post gave it a very odd interview to CNN where she talked about how amazing Luigi Mengione is."

Mary Kathryn Ham [08:52]:
"There’s a Flannery O’Connor short story called A Good Man is Hard to Find. And it's like, girl. No."

Carol Markowitz [08:13]:
"Her whole point that the media doesn't understand Mangione's appeal. We completely understand."

The hosts argue that such portrayals contribute to a dangerous narrative where perpetrators are given undeserved sympathy and admiration, potentially inciting further violence.

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Political Violence and Media Bias: Left vs. Right

Mary Kathryn and Carol explore the broader issue of political violence, highlighting how media coverage tends to differ based on the perpetrator's political affiliation. They reference historical events and recent incidents to illustrate perceived double standards.

Mary Kathryn Ham [11:49]:
"The New York Times repeated it just a couple of years ago in error. And I watched that in real time and I thought, this feels different."

Carol Markowitz [12:32]:
"Democrats do say things that Republicans simply would never be able to get away with."

The conversation underscores a frustration with how left-leaning violence is often downplayed or justified, whereas similar actions on the right receive widespread condemnation.

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Recent Assassination Attempts and Public Responses

The hosts address recent violent incidents, including an attempted assassination at the Pennsylvania governor’s mansion and a case in Wisconsin involving the murder of family members by a 17-year-old aiming to assassinate President Trump. They emphasize the increasing frequency of such events and criticize the lack of robust responses from Democratic leaders.

Mary Kathryn Ham [14:01]:
"It is not okay. And it has to stop."

Carol Markowitz [15:13]:
"He is a very mild mannered man, and 'not okay' is really just the bottom of it."

Mary Kathryn Ham [16:25]:
"It doesn't feel good, guys."

The discussion highlights a recurring theme of inadequate accountability and the potential influence of harmful rhetoric in fueling these acts.

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Democratic Strategy and Engagement with Trump

Mary Kathryn and Carol critique the Democratic Party's strategy in dealing with former President Donald Trump. They argue that Democrats missed opportunities to engage constructively with Trump, which could have mitigated some of his appeal and influence.

Mary Kathryn Ham [27:46]:
"If they had normalized Trump in 2017 and gone into the Oval Office and talked to him, they would have done many of those things he would have done."

Carol Markowitz [28:25]:
"She can't see them. They can't see her."

The hosts lament the missed chances for bipartisan dialogue and suggest that such engagement might have altered political dynamics significantly.

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Pronatalism and Political Agendas: A Left-Right Divide

The episode delves into the topic of pronatalism, referencing an article by Elizabeth Bruenig. The hosts discuss how the political left struggles to address birth rate concerns without being perceived as endorsing right-wing agendas. This creates a feedback loop where liberals avoid the subject, inadvertently strengthening right-wing associations.

Carol Markowitz [38:11]:
"Liberal women are some of the most unhappy in every survey."

Mary Kathryn Ham [40:45]:
"If you can't say that, how do you speak to normal people?"

They argue that this inability to engage with pronatalism limits the left’s ability to propose comprehensive social policies that include population sustainability.

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Conclusion: The Need for Balanced Rhetoric and Accountability

Wrapping up, Mary Kathryn and Carol emphasize the importance of responsible rhetoric in preventing political violence and fostering a more balanced media narrative. They call for more robust self-regulation within the Democratic Party and a willingness to engage with opposing views constructively.

Mary Kathryn Ham [42:14]:
"I'm not ashamed."

Carol Markowitz [42:37]:
"When things get weird, act normally."

The episode closes with a reaffirmation of the show's mission to provide "normalish takes for when the news gets weird," encouraging listeners to seek balanced perspectives amidst a turbulent media landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mary Kathryn Ham [10:00]:
  "You're explicitly telling people on national television that if you do something like this, you will have a fan club and be considered exactly handsome, revolutionary, a good moral man, and then we'll all joke about it."

• Carol Markowitz [16:27]:
  "Uniformly."

• Mary Kathryn Ham [19:50]:
  "And Taylor Stanning it also."

These quotes encapsulate the hosts' critical stance on media portrayal of controversial figures and the broader implications for political discourse.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting the hosts' critiques of media practices, political strategies, and societal issues. By including direct quotes with timestamps, the summary provides authenticity and facilitates a deeper understanding for those who haven't listened to the full episode.

Transcript

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[Mary Kathryn Ham]

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[Carol Markowitz]

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[Carol Markowitz]

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[Mary Kathryn Ham]

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[Carol Markowitz]

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[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Hey, guys. We are back on. Normally, the show with normalish takes for when the news gets weird. And you can really count on it to be weird. I'm Mary Kathryn Ham.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I'm Carol Markowitz. Hi, Mary Kathryn. How are you?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I'm all right. We did have some sort of incursion in my downstairs. I got a note under my door while I was recording another podcast before this that said, spider downstairs really big. What do we do? The kids are on spring break, so they needed me to help with this, but were respectful of my recording boundaries, and they put it under a box.

[Carol Markowitz]

Okay.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Which is, like, a pretty good solution. Good job, gal.

[Carol Markowitz]

Sure.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah. I'm not generally afraid of spiders. I, in fact, will save them instead of kill them if possible, because I think they're useful in the whole ecosystem. But I am now definitely afraid of the unknown under that box.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, I'll tell you, we had a snake in our home in Florida a few months after we moved in. And the fact that, of course, that I still live here is a testament to how much I love it. I know, but we ran over to the neighbor's house because we literally did not know what we should do. And the guy came over and he put the box on top, and then he slid the. The flap from another box under it and flipped it over and took it outside. So there's your solution. You need a second box. Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I'm feeling like I might just be very heteronormative and tell my husband to deal with it when he comes home. Right, of course.

[Carol Markowitz]

But I'm just saying, if you want to suggest to him a second box.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Steve said. Steve said that he's disappointed in the children because they should be fighting over who gets the kill.

[Carol Markowitz]

Nonetheless, we have a designated bug person. It's my middle son. He wants to catch them, put them outside. That or lizard person or frog or any of the other things we've had in the house. But, yeah, he's officially in charge.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

My firstborn used to be fearless about this, but she, in her tween years, she's decided that she's, like, not into that anymore.

[Carol Markowitz]

I hear her.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Anyway, to be continued.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, Keep us posted on how this turns out. So it was a wild, wild weekend. Lots of things happened. The left is in this very violent rhetoric place, and I am hoping that they snap themselves out of it, but it doesn't seem like that's happening time soon. Kayla Lorenz, who was a reporter at the New York Times and then at the Washington Post gave it a very odd interview to CNN where she talked about how amazing Luigi Mengione is. He's the guy, if you don't remember, who killed the health care executive on the streets of Manhattan in cold blood from behind because he didn't like our health insurance system.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah, we have a clip from that, and it's pretty disturbing. So this is her talking to a CNN correspondent named Donnie O'Sullivan. And here are her thoughts on what we're all missing about the fandom of Luigi Mangione.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Hilarious to see these millionaire media pundits on TV clutching their pearls about someone stanning a murderer when this is the United States of America. As if we don't lionize criminals. As if we don't have, you know, we don't stan murderers of all sorts, and we give them Netflix shows. There's a huge disconnect between the narratives and angles, the sort of mainstream media pushes, and what the American public feels. And you see that in moments like this. And I can tell you, I saw the biggest audience growth that I've ever seen because people were like, oh, somebody, some journalist is actually speaking to the anger that we feel.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

The women who got her outside court in New York.

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

So you're gonna see women especially, that feel like, oh, my God.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Right?

[Elizabeth Bruenig]

Like, here's this man who. Who's revolutionary, who's famous, who's handsome, who's young, who's smart. He's a person that seems this. Like this morally good man, which is hard to find.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah. I just realized women will literally date an assassin before they swipe right on me.

[Nathan Lane]

That's where we are.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Ow. It's a look.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's something for sure. She's sick. I think that is sick. And it's one thing to be this crazy. It's another thing to be this crazy on CNN and have it just be this like, ha, ha, ha, ha ha moment.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And I was. I was thinking, like, is there some ameliorate. Ameliorating fact here? Like, maybe this guy is a comedian who has a gig at cnn. He's not like, this isn't a news show.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

He's a senior correspondent.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. He's like, not a joke.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

No. For the intersection of politics and technology, this is what he does. And the idea that this person, Taylor Lorenz, reached the pinnacle of media in this country is a problem. Like, I have to believe that even the. The edgelords at this point are like, can we get somebody saner to report on us because, like, this is problematic. And again, like, she's framing it like I'm just sort of reporting on a phenomenon. No, you're not. You're justifying the phenomenon. And if you're a right of center impulse.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

You would not justify it. It's wild to me to watch her do this. There's a. Particularly the part where she says, a man of good morals, ma'am. Pardon?

[Carol Markowitz]

Which is hard to find. And you could only find it in a assassin.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah. There's a Flannery O'Connor short story called A Good man is hard to Find. And in it, this family's on a road trip and runs into a serial killer who's out from. Has escaped from prison. His name is the Misfit. And the grandmother on the trip has been trying to warn them that they might run into this person. And when she encounters him and he's about to kill her. Spoiler alert on that very old short story. She says, I don't think you should call yourself the Misfit because deep down I can see you're a very good man. And it's like, girl. No.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, no, totally. And her whole point that the media doesn't understand Mangione's appeal. We completely understand. We all grew up with rich kids in Che Guevara T shirts. We get it. We understand that leftist revolutionaries are very popular with a certain well to do set in the American left. And those people pretend that they are these revolutionaries too, and they support things like killing healthcare executives in the street.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Who?

[Carol Markowitz]

The healthcare executive was a father, and he had a real life and he was a real person. And guess what? Killing him actually didn't change our healthcare system whatsoever.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

No. And the justifying of it and the glorifying of it will lead to more crazy people looking around and going, is that the path for me? Because look, I always want to be careful about saying your rhetoric causes violence because I want to protect the speech. Right. We can all have all sorts of speech that's crazy and bad and that I think is ill advised and not necessarily lead to violence. But like y'all.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

You're explicitly telling people on national television that if you do something like this, you will have a fan club and be considered exactly. Handsome, revolutionary, a good moral man, and then we'll all joke about it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

It creeps me out.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. And look, we've talked about it in previous episodes, but Democrats do say things that Republicans simply would never be able to get away with Representative McIver saying, We are at war or Representative Van Hollen saying, we have to fight in the streets. And you know, these would be three day stories if a Republican said it. And the key part that I know I've said on the show before, but it bears repeating, there would be a chorus of people on the right to oppose this. There simply isn't that same chorus on the left. Now, I'm willing to be corrected, but has anybody on the left said anything about Taylor Lorenz saying this kind of thing? Has anybody said, this is insane, we shouldn't have it? Has any CNN employee said, this is inappropriate to have on our station? I will not stand for it. Where are these people?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Did anyone in the many layers of editing at CNN go, are we sure about what we're getting out of this interview? Nobody did. And this is the thing about coverage of political violence which I've been tracking for years, as you have. I think it really came to a head after the shooting of Gabby Giffords when the press, I watched in real time as the press alchemized this man into a right leaning Palin supporter who had been driven specifically by a piece of campaign literature with a target shaped shape on it. This was what had happened. None of that was true.

[Carol Markowitz]

And it went on for years, for years. They pushed that.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

The New York Times repeated it just a couple of years ago in error. And I watched that in real time and I thought, this, this feels different. Although it turns out it wasn't that revolutionary because back during the Kennedy assassination, the press largely went along with the lie that the right wing stew of sentiment in Dallas was actually what got Kennedy killed instead of the commie who had defected.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right, right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And come to actually murder him. So it's been happening, it's happened a lot. But it is so frustrating to watch them sort of delete all lefty violence or turn it into right wing violence.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And then the other side gets completely different standards.

[Carol Markowitz]

I mean, I'm very worried about this. I mean, the fact that Trump has had two assassination attempts, active assassination attempts on his life, I just can't see that this gets better anytime soon because of this kind of. Again, we can't, you can't blame rhetoric. But like you said, if you're celebrating this murderer so openly as handsome and revolutionary and famous and a morally good man, you are going to create copycats.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

It sure makes it look attractive. Yes. And speaking of political violence, just this week we have two more examples, one really bad. In Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, a man scaled an iron security fence in the middle of the night, eluded police and broke into the Pennsylvania governor's mansion, where he set a fire that left significant damage and forced Governor Josh Shapiro, his family and guests to evacuate the building, authorities said Sunday. The man captured later that day will face charges of attempted murder, terrorism, aggravated arson and aggravated assault, authorities said. Shapiro said he, his wife, his four children, two dogs and another family had celebrated the Jewish holiday of Passover at the residence on Saturday and were awakened by state troopers pounding on their doors at about 2am Sunday. They fled. Firefighters took care of it. No one was injured. We have a little bit of Shapiro, who is the popular Democratic governor of Pennsylvania, talking about this incident. We don't know the person's specific motive.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yet, but we do know a few truths. First, this type of violence is not okay. This kind of violence is becoming far too common in our society, and I don't give a damn if it's coming from one particular side or the other, directed at one particular party or another or one particular person or another.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

It is not okay. And it has to stop.

[Ryan Seacrest]

We have to be better than this. We have a responsibility to all be better.

[Carol Markowitz]

I get that it's a very tough moment for him, and I don't want to criticize anything, but he is a very mild man, mannered man, and not okay is really just the bottom of it. It has to be more than just not okay. I wish he had said that we have to hold this kind of violence, not just this kind of violence, but all political violence really accountable under the law, and that these people need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and we have to treat it much more seriously than we're treating it.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

To his credit, he has been consistent and had a good statement immediately after the Butler attempted assassination of Donald Trump. And he was much better than other Democrats on his rhetoric about that, which I very much appreciated at the time. I'm so glad his family's safe. The damage looks very bad. Yeah. What we know about the perpetrator is his. Cody Allen Ballmer, 38. His mother says that he is bipolar and schizophrenic and off his meds. Obviously, the timing with Passover seems suspicious to be an interesting part of this. His social media shows general dislike of politicians. Biden and Trump came in for criticisms on his social media and basic. And an actual quote is like, everyone sucks. But he specifically clearly had animus toward Shapiro and we'll find out more about that. Um, but again, there's this sort of idea floating around on X today that's like, oh, the Conservatives are so mad when Teslas are set on fire, but they have nothing to say now, that's not true. Yeah, uniformly.

[Carol Markowitz]

My whole timeline.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Uniformly.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

People saying, this is unacceptable. We cannot have it right.

[Carol Markowitz]

I would say more passionately than Governor.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Shapiro saying it in some cases, maybe. We also have this story out of Wisconsin that I wanted to note, which you could miss, because generally these are not covered as extensively as threats to Democratic politicians, which is part of the issue. A Wisconsin killed his parents to obtain the financial means and autonomy necessary to assassinate President Donald Trump, authorities allege in a recently released federal affidavit. The FBI affidavit sheds light on new light on the case against Nikita Kassep, 17, accused of killing his mother, Tatiana, 35, and stepfather Donald Mayer, 51, whose bodies were found in the family's Waukesha home in February. Kasep faces two counts of first degree murder, two counts of hiding a corpse, and theft, among other charges in their deaths. So that's three brewing or attempted assassination attempts on Trump, plus the one by the Iranian government.

[Carol Markowitz]

The Iranian.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

It's. It doesn't feel good, guys.

[Carol Markowitz]

No, it doesn't. Because murder is bad. Should be the bottom rung of the ladder of our agreement. It should be something that we're all on board with. This idea that I just feel like is becoming more prevalent, that you could just kill whoever you disagree with is not good. Not good.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Well, and like I said, you know, being careful to draw the lines between rhetoric and acts, we do have this, like, ladder that has been constructed that says, well, your words are violence, and therefore my retaliation to those words can be actual violence to my bodily safety can be violence. That's what you see as the justification on every college campus when all of this turns bad, they go, well, like, you were endangering me with your words.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And that just creates a real bad cycle.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Would love some even handed, like, yelling at the people doing this. Even handed reporting on it. Yes, even handed.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, even handed. Don't do this kind of thing from Democrats. I keep saying that the Democratic politicians have been just inadequate on putting this kind of violent rhetoric down. And again, I don't see from the left this kind of self policing that we would absolutely see on the right. They have to do it. We can't do it for them. They have to do it for themselves.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And we should note, I don't know if I noted on this podcast that the attempted assassin of Brett Kavanaugh was pleaded guilty last week. Again, not a huge story. But his attempt came in the wake of all of the rhetoric post Dobbs decision being leaked and his motive was specifically because of the Dobbs decision. And luckily he did not make it to Kavanaugh's house. But like, it's a bad scene out there and you've got a guy like Schumer who's the head of the party, saying these specific Supreme Court members should reap the whirlwind of their decisions.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right. That's just. It's an unacceptable way to speak.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And Taylor Stanning it also.

[Carol Markowitz]

She uses the phrase Stanning on CNN when nobody listening knows what she's talking about. And it's like slang from a long time ago at this point.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

No, I actually, I love that piece.

[Carol Markowitz]

Slang.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I was thinking the exact same thing as she's like she's trying to look like a young commentator, but she's using this word that is quite outdated at this point. For the. For the youngs, at any rate. Yeah, that clip, that's the ending clip.

[Carol Markowitz]

Again, I want to see people opposing it. If I haven't seen it and you have and you've seen leftists coming out against Taylor Lorenz, please send it in.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yes, let us know.

[Carol Markowitz]

You know, normally the podmail.com let us know and we will correct it. But so far I haven't seen any of that.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Oof, man.

[Carol Markowitz]

We'll be right back on normally.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Your life we talked About Donald Trump inviting Bill Maher to the White House. And it was set up by Kid Rock. I said Chris Rock the last time. Not, not Chris Rock. Kid Rock makes a lot more sense. He made it happen and he had them sit down. And Mayor Bill Maher on his show this weekend talked about how much he enjoyed meeting Donald Trump. People didn't like that. Yeah, that is something some members of his audience did not enjoy. Do we have that?

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah, we have one minute of him chatting a little bit about. About what he found in his meeting with Donald Trump.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Moving Israel's embassy to Jerusalem. Loved it. The border did need to be controlled. I'm glad the cops are getting their morale back. DEI had gone too far. Biological men shouldn't be playing women's sports. Europe should pay for their defense. And of course, it makes sense that Arab countries should take in Arab refugees like the million Syrians who wound up in Germany. When Saudi Arabia took none, he said to me, you're right, they took none. I said, well, you should remind your boyfriend in Saudi Arabia that the next time you see him. He laughed. I never felt I had to walk on eggshells around him. And honestly, I voted for Clinton and Obama, but I would never feel comfortable talking to them the way I was able to talk with Donald Trump. That's just how it went down.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. I have to say I completely agree that Donald Trump is himself and that is the. The thing that makes so many people drawn to him. All the issues and stuff are kind of a side note to the fact that he makes people feel like they're talking to a real person and not a political minded caricature, which a lot of these politicians are. They don't let down their guardians. It's what makes him so appealing. And so I completely understand what Bill Maher is talking about. Trump is super charming, super personable, but again, beyond all that, he is real. And that is a draw.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Well, and he, he notes, Marr notes throughout this, like he did a 12 minute description of it, which is worth watching, the whole thing that he brought a list of insults that Trump had doled out to him specifically to sign, and then he holds up the list of insults and Trump has signed it for him, as Trump of course would do. Right, right. He brought up several disagreements with him, joked about several things with him and felt comfortable doing that. His takeaway was like, I wish that this guy who doesn't seem as agitated as the guy I see in public or in negotiations with other countries would be around more often. Like, this guy's affable. This guy is willing to listen to other viewpoints. And I think this is what Democrats missed about Trump from the very beginning.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

If they had normalized Trump in 2017 and gone into the Oval Office and talked to him about things they wanted done, like he would have done many of those things because he in many ways is a New York city, big city, 1990s Democrat still. And they didn't take that chance.

[Carol Markowitz]

No, they didn't. Because they could not. They did not want to be seen as finding common ground with Donald Trump, which is what Bill Maher is taking a risk here doing that himself, although he is kind of known as to be a little contrarian and a little different. But Democrats did not allow themselves to get wins on the board because that would mean that they were friends with Donald Trump and you just couldn't have that. And an example that I use over and over again is Kim Kardashian understood that lesson. She went to the White House, she posed for pictures, she got what she wanted. And Democrats couldn't figure out a way to do that.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

You know who also did is Van Jones on the First Steps act, which was a major criminal justice reform that he wanted implemented and that he knew Trump was convincible. Like this is, if you meet with the man, you get more chances. He's actually not super ideological. As for you and me, as sometimes.

[Carol Markowitz]

It is better, worse. Right, right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

But they never did that. Interestingly, another Democrat took a chance on doing that this week. That Democrat is 2028, hopeful and up and comer in the Democratic Party. Governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, Gretch.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Oh, Gretchen. She came to the White House to talk about tariffs because from her point of view as a Democrat from Michigan, where auto workers would like to have more jobs in Michigan, this message is one that fits with her pitch. So she comes to talk about this narrow issue, meet with the President. She thought, I believe that she was getting a one on one and she got a little bit of that. But then she got invited to the Oval Office. And when she was invited to the Oval Office, it wasn't just a sit down in the Oval Office, which it's unclear how much she knew about what this was gonna look like. So she walks into the Oval Office in her signature look, by the way, which is a questionable hoodie with a blazer over it. That's like her thing. And I think she was wearing it there. Anyway, she comes in, he starts signing executive orders. Cause he does that all the time. He's Got the press in the room. He's doing his rolling commentary as he always does. And Gretchen Whitmer finds herself in the room thinking, oh, no, Democrats and liberals are going to hate that. I'm here, and here I am in this situation where he's, you know, making criticisms I don't necessarily agree with. Executive orders. I don't agree with. And she did the worst thing possible.

[Carol Markowitz]

Carol, that was so embarrassing. She covered. Go ahead. Yeah. No, she. Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Face with her binders right in the Oval Office while a New York Times photographer was taking her photo. Yeah, she.

[Carol Markowitz]

She can't see them. They can't see her.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

She tried to, like, shrink into the doorway and pretend that she's not there. And I. Look, I don't know. Gavin Newsom's career wasn't ended by the fires and the response to them in California. So she may escape this, but that was one of the most instantaneously, instantaneous downgrades of an up and coming politician I've ever seen.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, it was wild. It. It just. It was so immature. It was. It made no sense. What did she think was gonna happen? They weren't gonna take that picture of her. They were like, oh, well, we can't see her face, so we won't run these pictures. Instead, everybody ran pictures covering her face with her binders. It was just humiliating. I don't know how she recovers from that. I don't think she's got a shot in the next presidential election. I think that she is. She is that person. She's that person who thinks that she can cover her face with the binder. And I just don't see her being appealing to people. I. I don't like Gavin Newsom at all. I think that he's snaky in a lot of ways, but he appeals to people and he's personable in a way that she just isn't. And I. I don't know. I just don't. I don't see a future for her.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

I think she's overestimated. Like, I. I've never gotten it totally. And I don't understand the appeal. And I've always thought, like, why aren't people mad at her for letting her husband go get his boat out of storage while everyone else was told that they had to stay home during COVID Not allowing.

[Carol Markowitz]

Selling seeds in.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

That was a good one.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Classic. So I think she's overestimated, and I think this shows that my gut was maybe right on that, because I liken this to. If you fall in the middle school hallway. Right. Like, everybody's going to point and laugh at you because it's middle school. And like, if everyone's already pointing and laughing.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

The worst thing you can do is like, I'm just going to pretend no one could see me. The actual, the actual thing to do is to own it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And stand up and do a dramatic bow.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Laugh at yourself. And like, if she had just leaned in, this would have looked so much better. And she would have gotten something out of it. Probably from Trump.

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly. He would enjoy that. I look, this is the advice I give my kids, to laugh at yourself and then people will have a harder time laughing at you. So. Yeah, well, yeah, take that advice, Ms. Whitmer.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

She's now a meme.

[Carol Markowitz]

We're gonna take a short break and come right back with normalely.

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[Carol Markowitz]

[e-mail] Our last topic is There was a piece in the Atlantic by Elizabeth Bruinig about a pronatalism conference and how the right wing is very interested in getting people to procreate because our population is decreasing and our birth rate is low and all of that. But the key part of that story I saw this on X and I just want to read a little bit from this piece is why liberals can't say that this is a problem. So quote Liberals are reluctant to wade into these matters. Talking about families may imply a critique of other people's choices, alice Evans, senior lecturer in International Development at King's College London, recently told me. Me being Grunnock, some may believe, mistakenly in my opinion, that Conceding that having children is good and ought to be encouraged requires conceding that not having children is bad and ought to be punished, a kind of discrimination. And others may be repelled by the growing association between the subject of birth rates and the political right, forming a kind of feedback loop in which liberals avoid the topic because it seems like a right wing fixation and thereby strengthen the existing association. Further, whatever the source of liberal inattention, yielding to the far right the notion that humanity ought to persist on this earth strikes me as absurd.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah. Yes.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, they catch themselves in this kind of thing all the time. They have. They end up having to say absurd things because the right says that this and we have to oppose it. So it's interesting that having children is good is something that the left can't say because it implies that not having children is bad, which of course it doesn't. But that's how they see the.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Yeah, this is. Brunig is right. The idea that perpetuating the species is inherently good and in fact largely the reason we're here. Guys.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. Kind of need it.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

If you can't say that, how do you speak to normal people? And that's, that's the problem to this weird academic world that does not have a lot of relation to regular people. And that's why when you see Donald Trump and you're like, well, that guy's weird. Why do these people think that the normie vote should be for him? And it's because you guys made yourselves weirder.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And to your point earlier, he, he seems like himself. He's not fenced in by a bunch of requirements on his speech.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

He doesn't listen to other people sometimes to his detriment on how he should talk about issues. And these guys have just really handicapped themselves.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. And, and the thing is that they only have some language they can use to describe why this is happening. They obviously can't say that. Like, you know, the right says women working outside the home has been, has led to some of this because there's nobody home with the kids and it's harder and you have to hire somebody and all of that. They can't say any of that. So. And they can't even entertain that. So they end up arguing that you need more federal funding for this kind of thing. But that just proves. Shows that it's not the case in so many places where there is more spending. Yeah. Look at Europe, look at Canada, and you have all the things that the left says will lead to birth rate Exploding, but it hasn't happened. So I, I think if the left gave themselves permission to sometimes somewhat agree with the right, which again, you don't need this on the right. You have this all the time. You have like, oh, I agree with my leftist friend on 1, 2, and 3, and that's okay. But your leftist friend can never agree with you on anything. That's a problem. And that's a problem for them mostly.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Well, and I think also there's a couple of things here. We have icky facts that they cannot acknowledge because they then feel like they're coded. Right. If they acknowledge the icky facts. But the icky fact is that you need a bunch of children to perpetuate exactly the kind of social spending that they want to do. You can't do that without people. I know that they think the government can create resources, but actually people have to create resources and then you can appropriate them from those people. And then the other thing is that they never consider, and I think Brunig has spoken to this before, liberal women, liberal single women are some of the most unhappy in every survey that there is of American, of the American voter and American adult. And some of that I think is just because their ideological strictures don't allow them to say, maybe this path is good for me.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Like, it's embarrassing for them to want that. It wasn't embarrassing for us to want that because our peers think it's great and fine.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, right.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

And I think you get yourself stuck not thinking about it and then getting to a point in your life where you're like a little late to the game and it gets very stressful and hard and then you're, then you're at the Pronatalist conference where no one can speak about children.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right. You know, it's okay to say, I want my husband to come deal with the spider in the box downstairs.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

This is what I'm saying.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's it.

[Mary Kathryn Ham]

Okay. I'm not ashamed.

[Carol Markowitz]

Thanks for joining. Joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

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