Normally Podcast: The Case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia

Summary

Summary of "Normally Podcast: The Case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
• Host/Authors: Mary Katherine Hamm & Carol Markowitz (Normally Podcast)
• Episode: Normally Podcast: The Case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia
• Release Date: April 17, 2025
• Description: Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle major news stories with intelligence and humor. In this episode, Mary Katherine Hamm and Carol Markowitz delve into a high-profile immigration case, discussing its implications on current policies and political dynamics.

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1. Introduction

The episode opens with Mary Katherine Hamm welcoming listeners back to the "Normally" segment, setting a casual tone as she extends holiday greetings: “Happy Passover and Happy Easter to all who are celebrating this week” (02:31). This brief introduction segues into the main discussion, establishing a relatable and human connection with the audience.

2. The Case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia

A. Background and Deportation Error

Mary Katherine Hamm introduces the central topic: the accidental deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia to El Salvador. She explains that court documents reveal a clerical error by the Trump administration, resulting in Garcia’s wrongful removal despite his protected status (04:21). Garcia was part of a group slated for deportation, but due to an administrative oversight, he was sent back despite having protection from gang threats in El Salvador.

Mary Katherine Hamm: “He was part of a group that was rounded up to potentially be on these planes. And then someone realized that at some point, this man... had some sort of protection status that did not allow him to be sent back to El Salvador” (04:21)

B. Legal Status and Protection

Carol Markowitz questions the validity of Garcia’s protection status, comparing it to other immigration cases. Mary Katherine emphasizes that while Garcia was an illegal immigrant and possibly associated with MS-13, the protection status granted during the Trump administration should have shielded him from deportation.

Mary Katherine Hamm: “He had this thing. Now, it doesn't change the fact that he was definitely an illegal immigrant in this country... we can deport him, but we've got to send him somewhere else” (05:02)

C. Political Reactions and Democratic Involvement

The hosts express surprise and frustration over the Democrats' vigorous defense of Garcia, despite his alleged affiliations and illegal status. They highlight the rarity of such bipartisan concern, noting that Democrats are unusually invested in this case compared to others.

Carol Markowitz: “I have never seen Democrats fight harder for anything lives in their lives as they have for this person who was in the United States illegally and was possibly an MS-13 gang member” (05:48)

Mary Katherine connects this case to broader immigration policy issues under the Biden administration, suggesting that the overwhelming challenges at the border have led to systemic mistakes.

Mary Katherine Hamm: “Biden intentionally created a problem so large that correcting it is going to have mistakes” (07:10)

D. Judicial Proceedings and Supreme Court Involvement

The discussion moves to the legal battles surrounding Garcia’s deportation. The case has reached the Supreme Court, which has sent it back to the district court for clarification. The hosts anticipate that the Supreme Court may revisit the case, reflecting the ongoing tug-of-war between administrative policies and judicial oversight.

Mary Katherine Hamm: “This Abrego Garcia case has been to the Supreme Court already. And then it went. Got kicked back down to the district court to clarify... probably this thing's going to the Supreme Court again” (07:22)

3. Broader Immigration Policy Critique

A. Biden Administration’s Challenges

Mary Katherine and Carol critique the Biden administration’s handling of immigration, highlighting inconsistencies and perceived weaknesses. They argue that while the administration faces an unprecedented influx, its response has been marred by legal complexities and public missteps.

Carol Markowitz: “The thing that's sort of odd about this is... I don't see the problem with simply deporting him to El Salvador and not to the prison there” (06:27)

B. Comparisons with Other Cases

The hosts compare Garcia’s case to that of a green card holder in Louisiana, noting similar patterns of Democratic advocacy despite comparable legal statuses. This comparison underscores their argument about partisan biases in immigration enforcement.

Mary Katherine Hamm: “There was No rule of law when people were flown over the border at tens of thousands a day” (09:03)

4. Political Implications and Public Perception

A. Impact on Trump’s Support Base

The discussion touches on recent polling indicating a decline in Trump’s favorability among independent voters, attributing it to policy inconsistencies such as fluctuating tariffs and economic uncertainties. They emphasize that despite these challenges, Trump maintains significant support, especially among those disillusioned with the current administration.

Carol Markowitz: “The tariff thing, you know, it's so tough because it changes so often... they need to have some sort of cohesion going forward to not have this disarray” (11:13)

B. Media and Leadership Criticism

Mary Katherine criticizes Biden’s recent address, highlighting perceived racial insensitivity and historical blind spots, which they argue undermine his leadership credibility.

Mary Katherine Hamm: “The man is still showing that patented Biden judgment by coming out and giving that speech today” (13:07)

5. Government Funding and Higher Education

A. Harvard’s Frozen Funds

Shifting focus, the hosts discuss the Biden administration’s decision to freeze $2.2 billion in funds to Harvard University. They criticize the administration for imposing demands on academic institutions to protect Jewish students, which Harvard refused, leading to the suspension of funds.

Carol Markowitz: “Harvard is free to keep its racist policies, just not on the taxpayers dimensions” (19:04)

Mary Katherine supports the move, arguing that institutions with large endowments should not receive taxpayer money if they fail to uphold civil rights.

Mary Katherine Hamm: “Any Private university that has an endowment over $1 billion gets nothing” (19:03)

B. Broader Critique of Academic Institutions

The hosts extend their critique to other universities involved in campus protests and racial tensions, advocating for stringent conditions on federal funding to ensure accountability and respect for civil rights.

Carol Markowitz: “Federal funding comes with strings just like all funding. If they don't like the strings, they're free to reject the money” (19:55)

6. Additional Topics: ADHD Awareness

In a shift from political discourse, Mary Katherine and Carol address a New York Times article challenging conventional perceptions of ADHD. They explore the notion that ADHD might be better understood as an environmental-responsive trait rather than a purely medical disorder.

Mary Katherine Hamm: “ADHD should not be seen as just like a brain disorder, but as something that is part of who you are and in fact thrives in the right circumstances” (28:59)

They discuss personal experiences with ADHD, emphasizing the importance of structured environments and reduced screen time in managing symptoms, drawing parallels to the challenges of effective parenting.

7. Conclusion

Mary Katherine and Carol wrap up the episode by reiterating the complexities and frustrations surrounding both immigration policies and higher education funding. They call for greater accountability and systemic reforms to address these pressing issues effectively.

Mary Katherine Hamm: “Just give me my money back. That's all I want” (21:45)

They encourage listeners to remain engaged and informed, highlighting the need for balanced and just policies in both government and educational institutions.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mary Katherine Hamm on Deportation Error: “He was part of a group that was rounded up to potentially be on these planes... had some sort of protection status that did not allow him to be sent back to El Salvador” (04:21)

• Carol Markowitz on Democratic Advocacy: “I have never seen Democrats fight harder for anything solves in their lives as they have for this person...” (05:48)

• Mary Katherine on Biden’s Policies: “Biden intentionally created a problem so large that correcting it is going to have mistakes” (07:10)

• Carol on Harvard’s Funding: “Harvard is free to keep its racist policies, just not on the taxpayers dimensions” (19:04)

• Mary Katherine on ADHD Understanding: “ADHD should not be seen as just like a brain disorder, but as something that is part of who you are...” (28:59)

---

Conclusion

This episode of the "Normally" podcast offers a critical examination of current immigration policies, highlighted by the controversial deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. Through incisive dialogue, Mary Katherine Hamm and Carol Markowitz shed light on systemic flaws, political biases, and the broader implications for American society. Additionally, the discussion extends to higher education funding and mental health awareness, providing a comprehensive overview of pressing contemporary issues.

Transcript

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[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Hey guys, we are back on normally the show with normalish takes for when the news gets weird. I am Mary Katherine Hamm by the way, Happy Passover and Happy Easter to all who are celebrating this week.

[Carol Markowitz]

Thank you Mary Katherine. And I am Carol Markowitz and it is a Crazy week with the kids off from school. Are you feeling it over there?

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yes. We have the kids home as well. And I was doing some Easter clothing shopping. We do try to get a little. Some special stuff for the kids for Easter. And you'll appreciate this. When I was wandering through a store and I was like, I'm not gonna get my oldest new shoes. She's fine. She needs new shoes.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, of course.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

And I stumbled on in like, Nordstrom Rack, a pair of tiny women's the right size for her bubblegum pink patent leather loafers. Ooh. And I was like, I must buy these, right? I must.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. Let me know if they have them in my size. I could seriously use some bubblegum pink.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

I will send them along if I can find them. I was like, how. How is this real? You're getting new shoes, girl. So.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, that's.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

That's happening. That made everybody happy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. I mean, I. Nothing makes me happier than shoes, actually. My favorite thing to buy. So here we are on another normal week.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

Things are going super normally. The biggest story continues to be this man. They refer to him as Maryland. Maryland. Father Kilmar Abrego Garcia, accidentally deported to El Salvador. You know what? Actually, I don't know. Maybe you don't know. Let's discuss. How was he accidentally deported?

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

So this is the part where the Trump administration runs into a problem because they have admitted in court documents that they made a clerical error that meant he got on this plane to El Salvador. He was part of a group that was rounded up to potentially be on these planes. And then someone realized that at some point, this man, who, although he was adjudicated, possibly Ms. 13 by an immigration judge in 2019, he did have. What is it called? There's some sort of protection status he was given that did not allow him to be sent back to El Salvador because of gang threats to him allegedly in his home country.

[Carol Markowitz]

But isn't that what they all say?

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Well, yes, but the problem was that that protective status was given by the Trump during the Trump administration.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's gonna leave a mark. Right?

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah. So he had this thing. Now, it doesn't change the fact that he was definitely an illegal immigrant in this country. Right. I've looked at the government's evidence that he was Ms. 13. It doesn't seem like a ton, but I'm like, of the mind that he definitely shouldn't be sent to a prison in El Salvador.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

And if we had an order that said he should not be sent to El Salvador, we can deport him. And we should, but we've got to send him somewhere else.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. The thing that's sort of odd about this is I have never seen Democrats fight harder for anything lives in their lives as they have for this person who was in the United States illegally and was possibly an MS.13 gang member. I'm with you. If they made a mistake, they should fix it. I don't see the problem with simply deporting him to El Salvador and not to the prison there. El Salvador could figure it out from there. But there's just a marked thing with the Democrats where they are fighting for him in a way that I have never seen them fight for anything, Bill.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

And, you know, same with the Columbia green card guy who was down in Louisiana, who a court did say, like, he can be deported. Yeah. Someone rightly made the point that Chris Van Hollen, who's like, I need to meet directly with this head of state to talk about this man, you know, releases perfunctory statements about the murder of his own citizens at the hands of illegal immigrants. Right, right. There is a marked difference. And that is something that, you know, I think American citizens will give him quite a bit of leeway on the immigration stuff because he has had immense success at the border. And frankly, Biden intentionally created a problem so large that correcting it is going to have mistakes.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. That's it. Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

But I also think, like, you need to show the courts, when we make a mistake, we'll fix it, or else the courts are gonna be like, well, then you have to do this perfectly. And they can't do it perfectly.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. There is no perfect.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's very hard to achieve perfect. Ye. They're in a bind, and I'd like to see them fix it instead of continuing to dig this hole.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah, I agree. And like I said, he can be deported elsewhere, but he has to go through a process. And the people who are removed under this Alien Enemies act have to have habeas corpus. They can do it where they're detained. They can't do it anywhere in the nation. And. And shop. Forum, shop like they have been doing. That was the Supreme Court decision on that. This Abrego Garcia case has been to the Supreme Court already. And then it went. Got kicked back down to the district court to clarify. They had a hearing today. And the conclusion of that is basically like, yeah, you do need to facilitate him coming back. I'm going to be more clear about what that means. And probably this thing's going to the Supreme Court again.

[Carol Markowitz]

Wow.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

To discuss this guy's fate.

[Carol Markowitz]

Kind of wonder where they end up on it because they seem to give Trump some leeway on this kind of stuff.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah. I think they're trying to thread a needle, but I think there is a risk in them if they're not clear enough that Trump then has a standoff with these district courts. And like, then where, then where are you? Right. But I think I'm very sympathetic to people who are like, so we're going to do an individual hearing for every single person who's in this country illegally. And that does become a nightmare scenario. And there was no rule of law when people were flown over the border at tens of thousands a day.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's the best point right there. There was no rule of law then, but now it has to be to the absolute letter of the law. And that's a little ridiculous.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

It's very frustrating.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

And yet then I, you know, I watched the Oval Office where he's meeting with Bukele, who I actually talked to a friend who worked in El Salvador for many years and she said the download on Bukele is like, people really like him because he made it safer there.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

And Bukele's line, who is the El Salvador president in the Oval Office was, people say I've imprisoned thousands, but I like to think that I have liberated millions. Meaning that the many people who live in El Salvador now don't have to live in fear of being murdered as nearly as often as they were before. And Trump leans over to him and goes, that's good.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. Trump's like, have you considered printing that on red hats? Yes.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

So he's popular for that reason. He has taken various democratic processes away or limited them during his crackdown. But generally he's popular, but he's like kind of a strongman kind of dude who made the place a lot safer. So that's the deal with him. And then Trump is like, we are exploring the option of sending violent American criminals to El Salvador. And I'm like, no, you're not. This is where, you know.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

No.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes. But, you know, to quote my 15 year old, Trump says things.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

And so, you know, we'll see what, what, what happens. But obviously we hear it normally disapprove of that kind of behavior.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

He's like, Pam's investigating it. And I assume that Pam will come up with the fact that that's unconstit.

[Carol Markowitz]

I believe in Pam.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

So that's what's going on with Abrego Garcia.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

I will say that there was One poll this week that showed a lot of slippage for Trump among independent voters. And I think between too much of this, plus tariffs and like, sort of the chaos in the market, you run a risk of getting in real bad political water with that demographic especially.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. The tariff thing, you know, it's so tough because it changes so often. As we've discussed on here. That's, I think, what the real problem is for a lot of people. People can't plan, they can't think ahead. And I think that the sense was Trump would take office and things would be so much better in the economy, specifically, that this has been a shock to a lot of systems. It still could go great ultimately. It could still work itself out. The stock market's doing better, all of that, but they need to have some sort of cohesion going forward to not have this disarray.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

I will say, however, if those independents were watching Joe Biden's first time out since the election, they would have been reminded why so many people, and they themselves voted for Trump, because here's the beginning of his speech. Delaware, like Maryland, was one of those states, a slave state. We had all the vestiges of what was going on back in the day. We were one of those states that still. I remember moving from Scranton, Pennsylvania, down to Wilmington, Delaware, when Nicole died. My dad moved back to where he. I can't even do this. It's too painful.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, God.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah, it's too painful. He, I believe, uses the word colored at one point.

[Carol Markowitz]

Colored people. Yep. He saw them on a bus.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Colored kids on a bus. They never turned right to go to Claymont High School. I wondered why, asked mom, why, why? So in Delaware, they're not allowed to go to school in public schools with white kids, honey. That sparked my sense of outrage as a kid. Just like if they're, I mean, and these young kids right here can tell you things affect them when they learn about something that's really just unfair and unjust. And that was the opener. That was the opener, Carol. I skipped half of it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? That is. Yeah. You're like, thank you, Donald Trump, for being here.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Honestly.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. I was on Guy Benson's show a few days ago and he asked me as a first time Trump voter, how I thought things were going. And I said, you know, there were only two options and the other option was unacceptable to me. So I'm not going to agree with everything with Donald Trump. You and I are open about that fact. We're not sycophants. We're going to call it as we see it. But would I at any point trade him for Kamala Harris or Joe Biden? I would not.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

No. I mean, that's really something else. The man is still showing that patented Biden judgment by coming out and giving that speech today.

[Carol Markowitz]

I mean, people are asking for it, right? Somebody was like, hey, let's get Joe Biden up on that stage.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Oh, man. And at one point I was watching a streamer watch him, which is a thing we do in this house. And I look up and he's just cracking up the streamer as.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

And then Joe Biden starts screaming in that yelly way, yelly angry man way that he does. And the streamer goes, oh, he found caps lock. So that was Biden's re emergence.

[Carol Markowitz]

We'll be right back on normally.

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[Carol Markowitz]

In other Trump news, Donald Trump has frozen more than $2.2 billion to Harvard University. And not to quote my 15 year old too much, but she saw this headline over my shoulder and she said, why was the government giving Harvard $2.2 billion? She's really wise, that teen. Yeah, and I also don't understand how we've let this go on for so long where these schools with these giant endowments who charge close to $100,000 a year per student are taking this kind of taxpayer money. I just think it's unacceptable. And this why?

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Why did we ever get here?

[Carol Markowitz]

It makes no sense. Look, the money was frozen because they want certain demands from Harvard about how to protect Jewish students on campus. The New York Post posted some pictures of Jewish students being harassed during these protests that were going on. And Harvard said, no, we're not going to do that. We're not going to protect Jewish kids on campus. We are going to forego this money. And people are praising it. Barack Obama is praising Harvard for standing up and saying, no, we will not stop the antisemitism on our camp.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Well, because active violations have gone on on these campuses that should be like civil rights prosecutions. At UCLA especially, there was the actual checkpoint to see if you were Jewish, which is a nice touch. Somewhere like Columbia, they're holding people hostage, they're occupying buildings, they're preventing people from going class, threatening them, all sorts of stuff. And so I know there's some who are like, there are concerns with how you do this. And I'm like, here's how you do it. Any Private university that has an endowment over $1 billion gets nothing.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's it.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

And then you know what? It's not content based. We're not, we're not pulling the strings based on what your thoughts are like. And then you go after them on the civil rights stuff as well, because they absolutely deserve it. Piers Morgan made a great point where he was talking about the activity on these campuses and he's like, so you're telling me that if the man who was sent down to the Louisiana facility and then the court said he could be deported, The Columbia guy with the green card said, you're telling me, imagine this was a white supremacist who had been threatening black students in the exact same ways for this period of time. And you're telling me this country would be like, oh, we must save him because of his speech rights. Like he's involved in criminal and threatening behavior to other students.

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly. Colin Wright, he tweets @SwipeWright. His comment on this was really good. He said, Harvard is free to keep its racist policies, just not on the taxpayers dimensions. Federal funding comes with strings just like all funding. If they don't like the strings, they're free to reject the money, which they appear to be doing.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

So the left's argument on a lot of this, and there are some like really consistent free speech people who make this argument. And I am willing to listen to the consistent ones.

[Carol Markowitz]

Sure.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

But there's this thing with both the immigration and the academic institutions where it's like, okay, so let me get this straight. You get to come here, illegal immigrants do whatever you want, we're giving you all sorts of benefits and then we can't remove you.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right?

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

That's the deal. And then with colleges, it's like, okay, so we're gonna give you billions of dollars, you do whatever you want and then we can't take the money back.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. Like, yeah, none of that makes sense.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

That's why Trump was elected.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right. And so I mentioned Barack Obama, his comment on it, praising Harv. Harvard has set an example for other higher ed institutions, rejecting an unlawful and ham handed attempt to stifle academic freedom while taking concrete steps to make sure all students at Harvard can benefit from an environment of intellectual inquiry, rigorous debate and mutual respect. Let's hope other institutions follow suit. When did Harvard have rigorous debate? When was this intellectual inquiry? I have completely missed to the mutual respect. So I mean, he's just, this is nonsense. He knows that this isn't true. He knows what the real situation is. And he's just defending a liberal institution.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah, Just. Just give me my money back. That's all. That's all I want.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Just give me my money back.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's it. Yeah. I don't know. I think this is one of those issues where Trump is on the side of most Americans, and I think that most Americans will be like, my teenage hearing for the first time that we give this kind of money to these schools and wonder, why do we do that? And for those people saying, you know, all universities get money like this. This is just how it works. Well, a, this is not how it should work, but B, let me tell you about Hillsdale College in Michigan. So they don't.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

It's having a great time trolling everybody out there.

[Carol Markowitz]

They really are. They're having so much fun. I love Hillsdale. I did a fellowship there last year. I loved it. But the fact that they don't accept money from the federal government and they don't alter anything because of that, and they don't have to worry about who. Which administration is in and which one likes them or doesn't or any of that. You want to be free of strings. That's how you do it.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah. Yeah. That's how you do it. I don't know. They're also doing the rescissions for NPR and pbs, and I'm just so on board with that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

This insane idea that, like, oh, no, there will be no children's programming if there's no pbs.

[Carol Markowitz]

Come on.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Meanwhile, there's, like, just. Just reams of new streaming products per day. And also that the NPR folks, much like Ivy League academics, are some of the most affluent people in this country, and they can just buy more tote bags and fund them more instead of making me do it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly. I don't know why we'd be funding any of it. People always say, oh, but it's just such a small amount. But why should it be anything? Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

If it's such a small amount, I believe in you, right?

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, absolutely. If you're gonna fund anything, I think it should be this podcast called normally. Yeah, send us your federal money, please.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Well, that's the thing. Like, we would never dream. It's so funny to me, were finding out. And I knew that some of this existed. I know, but I didn't know as much of it existed as this. Like, on the left, they wouldn't blink an eye thinking, oh, we do have this very edifying podcast, and we should go ask the federal government to slink us in on one of these on one of these grants.

[Carol Markowitz]

We've been paying for all of this. We've been paying for all of this. Yeah, yeah, get that cash. I don't.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

We work in salt mines of podcasting to pay for the other podcasters and nonprofits.

[Carol Markowitz]

I want to get out of these salt mines, Mary Catherine, someday.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Smallest violin for us. Cut all that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, easy call. We're going to take a short break and come right back with Normale.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Let's do this. Ciao. It's Stassi. Of course. Lisa brought in her favorite to be resident chaperone of the castle. Stassi is an icon.

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24, streaming on Hulu.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Well, our last topic today is there was a blockbuster article in the New York Times about how we are thinking about ADHD all wrong. I think you and I are similar where I think we've self diagnosed as hdadhd. I mean I have a lot of things where when I read about people who have adhd I'm like, I totally have all of that, but I've never had any issues. I'll just say so. I've never had any challenges and I've never been diagnosed in any way. But, but I could see myself having this.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah, so, so I, I have an official diagnosis now, but for years I was like, for years I was like, well a lot of these things do sort of line up and what I discovered, and this is actually, this actually speaks to the thesis of this piece which is worth reading in full just because it's, it's fascinating about our culture because we have like this explosion of people being diagnosed, particularly young men. And part of that is like maybe they're just in an environment that's not working with their brains and so you're just sort of medicating them into, into complacency instead of actually solving a medical problem. But one of the things I realized is like I work in this business where I'm either on a writing deadline or I have to speak on a stage or I have to be on live tv. And the reason I do this job is because the only time my brain works, not the only time it works, but when it works.

[Carol Markowitz]

When it works well, yeah, is when.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

I have 20 minutes for before I have to get on stage and everything just goes right.

[Carol Markowitz]

I'm never better than under pressure, then I can function.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

And I think that is basically a career built on self medicating. Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

But what do you, you don't, you don't actually. The self medicating is the career, isn't it?

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah, no, it's, it's the adrenaline and that's what the, the thesis of this piece is. ADHD should not be seen as just like a brain disorder, but as something that is part of who you are and in fact thrives in the right circumstances. And that you need to be a little flexible about finding those circumstances as opposed to always making yourself sit in a chair for eight hours to do the work. And what they've found is that a lot of kids who had ADHD diagnoses when they were little. As they became older, and they were more flexible and able to get jobs that worked better for them, their symptoms dissipated.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Or that they felt better.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. So the New York Times actually had a separate piece summing up the research, and they had this paragraph, which I think is what you're saying. ADHD is usually portrayed primarily as a medical condition, a neurodevelopmental disorder with a genetic cause, which is why we often look first to medication to treat it. But researchers are now discovering that ADHD symptoms can be highly responsive to the environment as well. When the surroundings of a person with an ADHD diagnosis improve, a more engaging classroom, a more stimulating job, a more congenial home life, his symptoms often improve as well. And not to minimize anybody going through anything, but I've often thought that this is similar to depression, that people sometimes are depressed in certain situations, and when they're out of that situation, the depression lifts. Again, I'm not a doctor. I'm not saying that ADHD or depression or any of that is not real. It is real, but it could be cured with more than medicine.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Right. Well. And, you know, I. I try to. It's hereditary, so we have to in as Or. Or so they think, you know, like, the science is evolving here because there isn't actually a real, like, test or biomarker for this thing. But I'll just say that one of my children has similar tendencies to me.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Right. And so I do a lot of reading about how to improve things for her. And one of the things that improves the symptoms is having a structured day and having a structured things that she can expect and that she knows, so she's not sort of scattered, looking around for things all the time. And so it actually helps that I am married to my opposites attract husband who is extremely structured, and it gives her the gift of, I know where my things are, the day is planned for me, I get where I need to be next, and that lets her thrive in a different way. We also do keep the screen time low because for all kids, but I think especially for those with attention issues that can become a problem.

[Carol Markowitz]

I think that it's funny because I think we went through a period where we talked about screens a lot, and now we don't talk about it as much. We. We don't talk about, not. Not you and I, but the. Our society. I feel like we went through a time where we were like, yeah, we can't have these kids be on the screens. And then everyone just gave up. I think pandemic probably was.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Well, the pen. Yeah. Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

And I think Jonathan hates the anxious generation has made it back a little bit. Interested again.

[Carol Markowitz]

My thing with that is that I, I think that the kids use screens in a totally different way now. And they use it, they use it like mini tele. I talk about this and I write about this. This is, this is one of my like pet peeve issues where they use the tv, they use this, the, the phone as a mini television. And I do too. I watch little clips all the time. I watch, you know, reels little. I don't, I'm not on tick tock but they are essentially tiktoks and I think that they're using it in a, in a. Not social media way anymore. And that's.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

The difference.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Yeah. I think when I. Because I hear parents talk about it a lot because there were a lot of people who had to have their kids on a bunch of streams during.

[Carol Markowitz]

The pandemic because schools made them. Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Or they just had to work so they had to do what they had to do.

[Carol Markowitz]

Sure.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

I will say that if you cold turkey your kids for a while, you will see behavior improvements for sure.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

And it sort of, it's like one of the, it's like many parenting things where like climbing the mountain is hard.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

But once you get to the top and come down, you've made your life easier by working hard in that way.

[Carol Markowitz]

Absolutely. Yeah. That's really it. You've solved your kids adhd.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

Well, I do think, I do think this piece feels a little vibe shifty because it was like, it has a bit of a maha message like, hey, maybe we shouldn't be medicating our kids to this extent. And that's not to say that some kids do not need it. It. Some do. Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

Of course, yes.

[Mary Katherine Hamm]

But to consider the evidence and to say one of the founders, like one of the standby guys of ADHD studying and the main scientist who undertook the first randomized control trial on this, I didn't know this. He's like, the benefits are good for a year, right. For six months, eight months a year. But if you check 36 months later, there's no difference in the control group that's not getting medication versus the one that is. And I had never heard that before. And I like to have that information.

[Carol Markowitz]

Absolutely. I wonder if this changes anything with how this is diagnosed. But I feel like this kind of thing takes a while to shift. And you're right, it is a vibe shift. Something is different here about them being able to say this and you know, here at Normally. Glad they're telling the truth. That's really all that we want to hear. We'll see where it goes from there. Thanks for joining us on Normally. Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

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