Normally Podcast: The Comeback, the Coverage, and the Cross

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Episode: Normally Podcast: The Comeback, the Coverage, and the Cross
Release Date: May 1, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Normally Podcast: The Comeback, the Coverage, and the Cross, hosts Mary Kathryn Ham and Carol Markowitz engage in a lively discussion covering the first 100 days of the Trump administration, media interactions, Democratic leadership challenges, antisemitism on college campuses, media portrayal of influencers, and the politicization of religious symbols. Their conversation is marked by sharp analysis, humor, and critical insights into current political dynamics.

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The 100-Day Review of the Trump Administration

Mary Kathryn Ham and Carol Markowitz commence their discussion by evaluating President Trump's performance in his first 100 days. They acknowledge the swift implementation of executive orders but express mixed feelings about the long-term impact.

• [04:01] Jenny Garth (Mary Kathryn Ham): "It's a mixed bag. I would say that a lot of the executive orders do things. I am a huge fan of that. I'm sort of astounded by the swiftness of it."

They commend Trump's ability to quickly address the border crisis but critique his handling of deportations and trade negotiations.

• [04:29] Jenny Garth: "Trump, somewhat counterintuitively, has hurt himself by solving the border so quickly."

Carol adds that while the administration is making progress, the broader immigration issues remain complex.

• [05:08] Carol Markowitz: "Trust us. They're going to be amazing."

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Media Interactions and Interviews

The hosts delve into President Trump's interactions with the media, highlighting what they perceive as PR missteps.

• [05:08] Jenny Garth: "I'm willing to wait it out and see. I think that it's not my preference, but I've been wrong before."

They specifically criticize Trump's interviews with The Atlantic and reporter Jeffrey Goldberg, suggesting these encounters reflect poorly on his administration's media strategy.

• [06:14] Jenny Garth: "He cancelled an interview with them because they were like. They said things he didn't like... He should not be answering numbers he doesn't know."

Carol echoes the sentiment, emphasizing the importance of maintaining professionalism in presidential communications.

• [06:20] Carol Markowitz: "The President should not be answering numbers he doesn't know."

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Trump's Rally and Scott Jennings

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on Trump's rally in Michigan, where he publicly praised CNN commentator Scott Jennings.

• [08:31] Jenny Garth: "He spends a minute on Scott Jennings...Classic Trump move to spend his speech in part talking about a cable pundit."

They commend Trump's ability to engage and entertain his base while subtly critiquing media figures.

• [09:42] Carol Markowitz: "I love Scott Jennings. I think he is just fantastic."

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Democratic Leaders and Kamala Harris

Shifting focus to Democratic politics, the hosts examine Vice President Kamala Harris's role and public perception.

• [10:56] Jenny Garth: "She's putting herself out there. She's been mostly out of the public eye...expected to call out Trump over his policies."

They question Harris's effectiveness and likability within the Democratic Party, considering the challenges posed by figures like AOC and Bernie Sanders.

• [12:07] Jenny Garth: "It's a giant risk for Democrats to run someone like her."

Carol discusses the limited bench strength within the Democratic Party, highlighting the precarious position Harris occupies.

• [13:07] Jenny Garth: "What you need is name ID and audacity. And she has 100% name ID and clearly she thinks highly of herself to."

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Harvard Antisemitism Task Force Report

The episode addresses Harvard University's report on antisemitism, with Carol and Jenny expressing concern over the findings.

• [18:38] Carol Markowitz: "Harvard released their antisemitism task force report... there's a lot of antisemitism at Harvard."

They critique the normalization of antisemitic behavior on elite campuses and the inadequate response to protect Jewish students.

• [20:02] Jenny Garth: "Being visibly Jewish on an Ivy League campus would be problematic to the point of danger."

Carol shares a personal perspective, emphasizing the need for safer and more inclusive environments for Jewish students.

• [20:15] Carol Markowitz: "I am all about it... just an experience where they go to class and everybody leaves them alone."

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Media Coverage of Hasan Piker

The hosts critique media portrayals of Hasan Piker, a prominent Twitch streamer and political influencer, highlighting perceived biases in reporting.

• [21:48] Jenny Garth: "Hasan Piker, a progressive mind in a MAGA body... Both of the pieces neglect almost entirely his outrageous statements from the past."

They argue that media outlets downplay problematic behavior among left-leaning influencers while being more critical of their right-leaning counterparts.

• [23:52] Carol Markowitz: "Everyone is going to get two glowing New York Times profiles...aversely progressive figures are portrayed more favorably."

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Politicization of Religious Symbols

A notable segment explores how religious symbols, particularly crosses, are being politicized in contemporary culture and politics.

• [28:24] Jenny Garth: "Cross necklaces are popping up everywhere... at the intersection of faith and culture."

Carol and Jenny discuss the duality of crosses as both personal symbols of faith and potential political statements, critiquing the media's handling of such representations.

• [30:16] Jenny Garth: "The cross has evolved... It does just mean Christianity, by the way."

They also touch upon controversial interpretations linking crosses to white nationalism, challenging the legitimacy of such associations.

• [30:05] Carol Markowitz: "As a Jew, I love seeing crosses on people. I love seeing people represent their values."

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Conclusion

Mary Kathryn Ham and Carol Markowitz conclude the episode by reiterating the importance of navigating political and cultural discussions with nuance and critical thinking. They encourage listeners to stay informed and engaged, especially as political landscapes continue to evolve.

• [32:07] Jenny Garth: "When things get weird, act normally."

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Notable Quotes

• Mary Kathryn Ham:

  • "I'm sort of astounded by the swiftness of [Trump's executive orders]." [04:01]
  • "Trump just understands TV so well." [09:07]

• Carol Markowitz:

  • "The President should not be answering numbers he doesn't know." [06:20]
  • "No one is clamoring for Kamala Harris, but their bench is so small." [13:07]

• Jenny Garth:

  • "Maybe she should do the job of governing." [14:14]
  • "Being visibly Jewish on an Ivy League campus would be problematic to the point of danger." [20:02]

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show provides a comprehensive analysis of current political events, media dynamics, and cultural shifts. Mary Kathryn Ham and Carol Markowitz offer their perspectives with a blend of humor and critical insight, making it a valuable listen for those seeking to understand the complexities of modern American politics.

Transcript

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[Carol Markowitz]

You don't be silly.

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[Jenny Garth]

Hey, guys. We are back on. Normally, the show with normalish takes for when the news gets weird. I am Mary Kathryn Ham.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I am. I am Carol Markowitz.

[Jenny Garth]

Sarah.

[Carol Markowitz]

Kathryn. We are both in pink today. And, you know, I think that pink is super, your color.

[Jenny Garth]

Thank you. I did lipstick to match. I'm just. I'm going all in.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love it, girly.

[Jenny Garth]

I don't like pink, but pink likes me, so here we are.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's unfortunate for you. I'm a redhead who isn't supposed to wear pink, but I don't care. I love pink and I don't care who knows it.

[Jenny Garth]

You're like 16 candles in it. Up. Is it 16 candles or is another one where she wears pink Pretty in pink. Oh, duh. That would be the one.

[Carol Markowitz]

I don't think I've seen that one, honestly. I saw Sixteen Candles, though.

[Jenny Garth]

I'm getting old, folks.

[Carol Markowitz]

All right, so we are 100 days into this administration. How's that going for you?

[Jenny Garth]

You know, it's a mixed bag. I would say that a lot of the executive orders do things. I am a huge fan of that. I'm sort of astounded by the swiftness of it. I think that Trump, somewhat counterintuitively, has hurt himself by solving the border so quickly.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[Jenny Garth]

Because he kind of took that off the plate. He took that off of the front page of the news. And then you get to the more sticky deportation issue, which a lot of people are still in favor of, but can be not as clean a storyline.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Jenny Garth]

Although we all want it to be, because there's plenty of people who are eminently deportable. And then you've got the trade stuff, which I still am not a fan of. And you gotta ink some deals, my dude. We are at 100 days. We need to start putting pen to paper because. Because this is the job you gave yourself.

[Carol Markowitz]

His financial people, or I guess I say his economic people, all sound like him at this point. They're like, great deals are coming. Just.

[Jenny Garth]

Yes.

[Carol Markowitz]

Trust us.

[Jenny Garth]

Yeah, they're going to be amazing.

[Carol Markowitz]

The biggest deals you ever saw. So we'll see. I'm still wait and see on that. I think that it's not my preference, but I, like we've talked about on the show. I've been wrong before. I'm willing to wait it out and see. I would say what I really don't like in the last few days is the interviews that he's given to outlets that openly hate him. Yeah, I have a real problem with that. I don't like how much he needs to be liked. This makes me crazy. I like so many things about the Trump administration this go around, but this needs to change, in my opinion. And the main thing for me was two reporters. I think it was Atlantic who called him up. First of all, he canceled an interview with them because they were like. They said things he didn't like. I didn't even have a problem with that. Okay. And then they called him from an unknown number. He answered and proceeded to give them an interview.

[Jenny Garth]

Yes.

[Carol Markowitz]

I don't answer numbers I don't know. The President should not be answering numbers he doesn't know.

[Jenny Garth]

Yep. They, like, caught him up at Bedminster at a good moment, had a discussion, and that discussion went so well that he was like, come to the Oval Office and bring along Jeffrey Goldberg. Jeffrey Goldberg is the editor of the Atlantic who wrote the Signal story, which again, he got that one correct. He had the receipts on that one. This other story he's most famous for is the Suckers and Losers, which I still deem to be a lie. There's nothing there. There's no one ever that that's ever been attributed to. But he brings him into the Oval Office. And then my favorite part of all of this is after this long cover story that the Atlantic has, which, by the way, covers how Trump mounted this comeback. Now, this is another one of those stories like Biden's dementia that you and I were kind of onto a little earlier. Yeah, like I' sure. I need to read a full 30 pages on the comeback from the Atlantic because they're kind of getting to the story pretty late at some point in it.

[Carol Markowitz]

April 2025. Yeah, it's a little late at some.

[Jenny Garth]

Point in the story. Sharer Michael Scherer, the reporter, Ashley Parker, is the other one, formerly of the Washington Post. He says he got a butt dial from the president, like at 2 in the morning.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Jenny Garth]

Like 1:30 after a UFC fight, he says. He says, Mr. President, you mean to call me? And he's like, oh, did I do that? And I'm like, no, we cannot have him butt Dialing Atlantic reporters, Air Force One post UFC fight.

[Carol Markowitz]

Who knows what they're going to hear otherwise? He doesn't drink, which makes it all a lot safer. Even if you are a politician who had two glasses of wine and then you. But dial a reporter, there's potential for things that you might not want them to hear.

[Jenny Garth]

Yes.

[Carol Markowitz]

Trump, I don't think he has anything he doesn't want people to hear. He wants people to hear all of it.

[Jenny Garth]

Well, and that's the upside of him. And from a journalist point of view, I love that he's accessible. It's so much better than Biden and the Biden team. But there should be some guardrails here.

[Carol Markowitz]

We need some guardrails for sure.

[Jenny Garth]

As Sharer put it, they have imperfect control over his personal devices.

[Carol Markowitz]

I like that line.

[Jenny Garth]

Yeah, yeah. Can we play a little bit from his Hundred Days rally, which I believe was in Michigan. Yep. And of course, a big enthusiastic crowd. And I just like. He talks about policy. Of course, he talked for a long time. But this is so Trump. He's there in front of his people and what does he do? He spends a minute on Scott Jennings. Here it is.

[Ryan]

Now.

[Donald Trump]

We have a man here that I don't know, but he's defending me all the time on cnn and he defends me really well. But he can't go too far because if he goes too far, he'll get fired. I said, you're amazing. You can take it right to the edge. And he really does a good job. He's not allowed to go any further. He would be off, you know, if he really went totally crazy, which he'd like to do. But I think he's terrific. Scott Jennings. Where's Scott? Where are you, Scott? Come here, Scott. This guy, really, I've watched him for years. I don't know him, but he likes Trump. Come here, Scott. Oh, cnn. This is the end of Scott.

[Jenny Garth]

No.

[Donald Trump]

Who cares?

[Carol Markowitz]

Don't worry.

[Donald Trump]

We'll take care of you, Scott. Scott Jennings, really great.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love Scott Jennings. I think he is just fantastic. So great.

[Jenny Garth]

And actually Trump is. I love that. Trump just understands TV so well, by the way. So much. This was an hour into this speech, by the way, because he had already gone all the way through and that was during Ingram show. So more than an hour into the speech, he brings Scott up and he's exactly right about Scott. He's like, he pushes it just far enough that he can't go too far. And by the way, bringing him on stage with me might be the moment that it goes too far, but it's over for you. I did see Scott on camera on CNN from the rally. So I think they, they're good for the moment. But yes, just a classic Trump move to spend his hundred day speech in part talking about a cable pundit.

[Carol Markowitz]

He's so charming. He really, he has that gift. And I don't know who comes after him, but I look out into a sea of people who don't have that.

[Jenny Garth]

It's very, very tough to top all that. He also, you know who doesn't have it? Kamala Harris.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, yeah, you could upset anyone.

[Jenny Garth]

But who really doesn't have it, really doesn't have. Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

He really doesn't have it.

[Jenny Garth]

Kamala Harris is going to be back at it this week. She's putting herself out there. She's been mostly out of the public eye, but as Yahoo reports, that will change. Wednesday, she's delivering the keynote address at the Emerge 20th Anniversary Gala at the Palace Hotel in San Francisco honoring the group's role in electing more Democratic women in California politics. She's expected to call out Trump over his policies and how she believes they are failing Americans.

[Carol Markowitz]

Okay, the comeback tour. No one asked for no and wait for the quote.

[Jenny Garth]

Are you ready? There is a clamoring for her voice right now, said a flammable Harris senior advisor who was granted anonymity to speak candidly. Why do you need anonymity to give this quote? And then she says no one can better prosecute the case while inspiring a call to action than the former vice president. Fact check. If that were true, she would be president.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? I think lots and lots of people can do a better job. Actually.

[Jenny Garth]

So many.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's tough being Kamala Harris. It's tough being a Democratic party leader right now because what are you going to do? AOC and Bernie are drawing these crowds. I don't know that they can win a general election. Maybe AOC can. I think that it's a giant risk for Democrats to run someone like her. She might run away with it. She might become the it thing and, and get all the support. And she's young and photogenic and she has the thing, right. That, that politicians need. But they stopped Bernie in 2020 because they didn't think he could win the general. So I just can't see where they go now. And so they don't have that many people to put out there. And Whitmer actually had an, she was at an event with Trump in the last few days in Michigan and got so much abuse for it. Online and lots of Democrats online saying, well, that's it for her. So you have to walk this kind of really tight, crazy line to be a Democratic leader right now. No one is clamoring for Kamala Harris, don't get me wrong. But their bench is so small and so thin that she's kind of their only game in town right now.

[Jenny Garth]

And also the thing about American politics is what you need is name ID and audacity. And she has 100% name ID and clearly she thinks highly of herself to. Highly enough to have run for president, even though the, you know, the goods really aren't there.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. You know, some audacity for sure.

[Jenny Garth]

Yeah. Her name idea is going to, is going to keep her at the top of people's lists. And the thing about that is it can snowball if you get too far in the process. And no one has clearly ousted her from that top spot.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Jenny Garth]

It could be that she's the person.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. We weren't going to get into 2028 in this segment, but people to judge. Had a really great interview recently on a podcast. I'm, you know, I'm terrible with names, but the comedian, Andrew Somebody, he's like everywhere right now. Forgot his name.

[Jenny Garth]

I can see his face. Andrew Schultz.

[Carol Markowitz]

Andrew Schultz.

[Jenny Garth]

I actually, unpopular opinion, have always kind of enjoyed hearing Pete Buttigieg talk. Yeah, he's good at talk. This is the thing about all of them though, right? Is like Gavin Newsom pretty interesting to listen to on a podcast. Pete Buttigieg occasionally sounds like he's thought about policy before.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Jenny Garth]

Then the rubber hits the road and they have to do their actual job. And this is where the Ezra Klein's of the world are like, maybe y'all should do it. And I'm like, yeah, that's what I've been saying. Maybe they should do the job of governing. And I think Trump, Trump is leaving people openings because, you know, his approval is going down on the economy, which is going to be the number one issue for so many people. Yeah, but these people aren't attacking him on the economy. They're attacking him on deportations.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. On kicking out violent illegal immigrants. Not even the regular kind of illegal immigrants. Violent illegal immigrants.

[Jenny Garth]

Yeah, I think that's a mistake.

[Carol Markowitz]

We'll be right back on.

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[Jenny Garth]

They get all their wisdom from the college campuses where. We have some news out of Harvard, don't we, Carol?

[Carol Markowitz]

We do. Harvard released their antisemit. Sorry. Harvard released their antisemitism task force report. And wouldn't you know it, there's a lot of antisemitism at Harvard. Yeah, some little tidbit. There were quotes in the piece like Jewish students saying, I feel lucky I don't look Jewish. Harvard. Many Jewish Harvard affiliates were routinely asked to clarify. They were, quote, one of the good ones by announcing the state of Israel and renouncing any attachment to it. People saying things like, I never even did pro Israel things. I just existed. And then I was bullied and ostracized and that kind of thing. You know, I think people knew it was bad. I just, there's this sense that, like, how bad is it really? No one is getting beat up. No one is getting. It's not super violent. Like, why is this a problem? Well, it's a problem because absolutely no other group would be asked to endure this. And I could tell you from my own personal world, there's a lot of conversations about where our Jewish kids can go to college and have it be a relatively normal experience, not looking for anything extra, just an experience where they go to class and everybody leaves them alone.

[Jenny Garth]

Yeah. I think just the fact that it's not surprising to basically anyone that being visibly Jewish on an Ivy League campus would be problematic to the point of danger.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right.

[Jenny Garth]

That sentence is not surprising. You don't need a commission, you don't need a study to figure that out. I guess some people are probably in denial about it. But, like, that is not a controversial sentence. And that's crazy to me. These are American elite universities where if you were to walk across campus in a yarmulke, it would go badly for you. And we all kind of, we just know it. It's an open secret.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right, right, right. And the Trump administration is actually trying to do something about it. And I mean, nobody worse than my liberal Jews because they are saying, oh, he doesn't really care about antisemitism, he just wants to harm these colleges. Even if that were true, he still would be doing something about antisemitism on these campuses. But I don't think it's true. I think he actually does care about this. I think he is appalled at this kind of thing. So there was a story of a progressive Jewish student who was deeply critical of Israel's action in Gaza. He was admitted to Harvard Medical School and did not attend because pro Palestine students discouraged them from attending by telling them, zionists not welcome here during the admitted students event. If you're listening to this and you're confused about what Zionism means or what Zionist means, it literally just means Israel should exist. Israel exists and should exist. That makes most people a Zionist. The reason this person was targeted is not because they were Zionists, it's because they were Jewish. Lots of people are Zionists walking around in their everyday lives and are not targeted at this kind of abuse.

[Jenny Garth]

So I just want to note another double standard along these lines that popped up for me this weekend is Hassan Piker. Are you familiar with this guy?

[Carol Markowitz]

I'm not. I am now because it turns out he represents right wing attractiveness with a left wing brain.

[Jenny Garth]

So he's. So he's a very famous Twitch streamer. I didn't realize until I read this glowing profile of him in the New York Times that he is Jink Uygur's nephew and got his start on the Young Turks. So, like, I'm not slagging, I'm not doubting that he does a lot of work. But this, he admits himself. He's a bit of a Nepo baby here. He's a good looking guy, he's tall, he's strong, he lifts weights. He's into some dude stuff, video game sports in a. In an authentic way. He has millions of streaming followers. I've. I've watched him on Twitch in the past. It's good to get an idea of what the opposition is talking about. But the headline on this New York Times piece, hasan Piker a progressive mind in a MAGA Body.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's so insulting to progressives.

[Jenny Garth]

Such a cell phone. Like, this guy's good looking and masculine. That means he's maga. Like, can you imagine how annoyed Hasan Piker is that he lifts weights, which is a very normal thing to do and he got a MAGA body for it. Like. But the point, the deeper point, I want to make is this is his second glowing New York Times profile in six months. The last one was by Taylor Lorenz. This is a new one. It's full of nonsense. Both of the pieces neglect almost entirely his outrageous statements from the past. Because you're allowed to be an edgy extreme liberal influencer who says insane stuff in a way that you are not if you are right leaning. So here he is. He's been an October 7th atrocity denier. He's called Jews inbred. He's platformed Houthis. He said he has no problem with Hezbollah. I've watched these clips. They're not out of. Not out of context. There is one glancing mention.

[Carol Markowitz]

He said one more thing. He said it doesn't matter if rapes occurred on October 7th. It's irrelevant to him maybe. Really good guy.

[Jenny Garth]

He's also. He's also said. I'm just gonna say it. We deserved 9 11.

[Carol Markowitz]

So like I'm just saying, their hero.

[Jenny Garth]

You and I aren't going to get two glowing New York Times profiles. And if we ever did get a profile, it would have every single borderline problematic thing we've ever said in it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Totally everyone.

[Jenny Garth]

Just to pass. He loves Palestinians so he just gets a pass if they follow him. I will say it's more of the sort of like AOC Bernie, as far left as you can get. He might be into video games, but he also is into very very far left policy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? And as long as that doesn't win, let them have their fun with it. We're going to take a short break and come right back with Normale.

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[Jenny Garth]

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[MIDI Health]

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[Carol Markowitz]

You don't be silly.

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[Jenny Garth]

Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors.

[Ryan]

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[Carol Markowitz]

Don'T know if you've heard Mary Kathryn, but people are wearing crosses and it's a whole thing.

[Jenny Garth]

Yeah, I saw this. I saw a screenshot of this new York Times headline. And I thought it was fake. I was like, this is a Babylon Bee, like a Photoshop or something. It. Is this a hot accessory at the intersection of faith and culture seen on influencers, pop stars and White House staff. Cross necklaces are popping up everywhere.

[Carol Markowitz]

Pop stars are wearing crosses now. Madonna's looking around like, what now this is.

[Jenny Garth]

They are so, so deeply out of touch. Like, it actually, it actually makes me wonder, maybe Biden did trick them.

[Carol Markowitz]

That was really good.

[Jenny Garth]

Like, maybe you did miss it if you missed that people wear cross jewelry for this long. So, yeah, it talks about Chapel Roan's worn across, Sabrina Carpenter's worn across. Then it goes into the real reason for the story, which is that Pam Bondi and Caroline Levitt and maybe it's problematic.

[Carol Markowitz]

Maybe it's problematic.

[Jenny Garth]

Yes, indeed. White authoritarianism or white nationalism is mentioned in this call, in this piece, of course. Because you can't, you, you can't not talk about faith based white nationalism while you're talking about totally normal cross jewelry.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right, right. Poor Chapel Roan. Is she a white nationalist now?

[Jenny Garth]

I know, right? Well, they get to throw in some lefties because apparently Hakeem Jeffries wore a cross on that. Some protest they did recently. But, like, the people they're just like, quoting influencers are like, yeah, I wear a cross. Cause, like, I believe in Jesus and I feel like it's a nice way to communicate to other people that we might have shared values.

[Carol Markowitz]

Like, love it.

[Jenny Garth]

Wowza.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Jenny Garth]

And then I did enjoy the, the person they had comment as a, as a, an expert. Because you need an expert. Okay, Lucy Collins, you ready for these creds? An assistant professor at the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York who teaches courses in philosophy, fashion theory and ethics, said while cross necklaces are often worn apolitically, their appearance in the political sphere in the United States has introduced implications of partisan politics.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, it's like when Mara Gay at the New York Times was offended by all the American flags. Like, sometimes they just say crazy things and they don't realize how crazy it is.

[Jenny Garth]

They just didn't know how crazy it was. I enjoy this. The cross, a symbol most associated with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, first emerged during the Roman Empire when it was an instrument of mass torture. Torture, said Robert Covelo, the theologian and associate pastor at Christchurch Sierra Madre. And then it says, referencing its usual. Its original use, Mr. Cavolo said the cross was a, quote, symbol of the Roman Empire asserting its power with impunity over centuries. The cross has evolved. I like that they have to start with, first of all, like, we don't know this. Second of all, they're like, let's mention the torture in the Empire as part of the story. And then it's like, by the way. It does just mean Christianity, by the way.

[Carol Markowitz]

Maybe. Maybe that's what people mean. I as a Jew, love seeing crosses on people. I love seeing people represent their values. I am all about it. And it just looks cool. It just looks cool. So wear those crosses, people.

[Jenny Garth]

I agree with Star of David. We're both. We both rock them, depending on the day. And I just, I truly thought it was fake.

[Carol Markowitz]

I wish it was fake.

[Jenny Garth]

Like, there wasn't one person in the newsroom who was like, I'm not sure this is a story.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? This doesn't seem like a story at all, actually.

[Jenny Garth]

But the point of the story is to be like, Caroline Levitt is muddying the Christianity waters with her Christian signaling.

[Carol Markowitz]

She's Inspect and Pam Bondi with their crosses. Yeah, come on, just be normal guys.

[Jenny Garth]

And we wonder why they cover everything else sanely.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? Well, thanks for joining us on Normally. Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

[Ryan]

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[Ryan]

In the fall of 1986, Ronald Reagan found himself at the center of a massive scandal that looked like it might bring down his presidency. It became known as the Iran Contra affair.

[Carol Markowitz]

The things that happened were so bizarre.

[Jenny Garth]

And insane, I can't begin to tell you.

[Carol Markowitz]

Please do.

[Ryan]

To hear the whole story, listen to Fiasco Iran Contra on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Clay, if there was a summer camp for critical thinking, we'd be the chief counselors. Those jelly heads in June would be intellectual warriors by August. Be a lot of fun too. Some Bill and Ted's excellent adventure references thrown in this podcast. Like a daily dose of that. Minus the campfires, archery and pranking, the girls. The bonafide boot camp for critical thinking. You can get in on it for free at the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast. Just search our names, play and balk, listen and subscribe.